CAPTIONS BY LENA ERAKOVICH AND JAMES BROWN. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ COPYRIGHT ABLE 2024 TENA KOUTOU, NAU MAI, HAERE MAI. WELCOME TO Q+A. I'M JACK TAME. TODAY ` THE FINANCE MINISTER NICOLA WILLIS DELIVERS THE 2024 BUDGET. THIS IS A FISCALLY RESPONSIBLE BUDGET ` THE MOST FISCALLY RESPONSIBLE IN SEVEN YEARS. TE PATI MAORI SAYS IT WANTS TO ESTABLISH ITS OWN PARLIAMENT, AFTER A DAY OF PROTESTS ATTENDED BY THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE AROUND THE COUNTRY. TOITU TO MOKOPUNA! ALL: AKE, AKE, AKE! AND WHAT WILL IT TAKE TO MAKE A BETTER FUTURE FOR WHAT WAS ONCE THE DARLING OF OUR AGRICULTURE SECTOR? WOOL PRICES ARE NOW SO LOW IT ACTUALLY COSTS FARMERS TO SHEAR THEIR SHEEP. THEY'RE LOOKING FOR A MIRACLE. WE'LL HAVE THAT FOR YOU SHORTLY, BUT WE BEGIN THIS MORNING WITH FINANCE MINISTER NICOLA WILLIS, FRESH FROM DELIVERING THE FIRST BUDGET OF HER GOVERNMENT'S TENURE. KIA ORA. KIA ORA. WE FOUND NINE EXAMPLES WHERE HE TALKED ABOUT $250, HOW MANY FAMILIES WILL GET THAT? JUST UNDER 3000. IT IS ABOUT 200 PEOPLE. IT IS ABOUT THE INTERACTION BETWEEN THE INDEPENDENT TAX CREDIT. THE SECOND GROUP ARE ALWAYS AFFECTED BY TAX CHANGES ` PEOPLE WHO ARE ONLY ON A BENEFIT FOR PART OF THE YEAR. TO BE CLEAR, WE ARE NOT CHANGING THE SIZE OF THE BENEFIT. THAT RELATES TO THE SIZE OF THEIR TAX CREDIT AT THE END OF THE YEAR, THEIR ELIGIBILITY FOR TAX REFUND REDUCES BY ABOUT ONE DOLLAR PER WEEK. 5000 ARE AFFECTED. ACCORDING TO THE REGULATORY IMPACT STATEMENT, 9000 HOUSEHOLDS WILL HAVE A SMALL REDUCTION IN INCOME AS A RESULT OF THE TAX PACKAGE. THIS IS TO DO WITH THE SIZE OF THE TAX REFUND AT THE END OF THE YEAR. 9000 HOUSEHOLDS... ANYONE WATCHING WHO IS A BENEFICIARY, WE ARE NOT REDUCING THE SIZE OF THE BENEFIT. TO BE TOTALLY CLEAR, 9000 HOUSEHOLDS WILL HAVE SOME REDUCTION IN INCOME AS A RESULT OF TAX CHANGES. WHY DIDN'T CHRISTOPHER LUXON CAMPAIGN ON THAT? ON THURSDAY NIGHT, TALKING ABOUT THE $250, ONLY 3000 FAMILIES GET THAT, 9000 FAMILIES ARE WORSE OFF. THERE ARE HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF FAMILIES, 3.5 MILLION INDIVIDUAL NEW ZEALANDERS, WHO ARE BETTER OFF AS A CONSEQUENCE OF OUR TAX PACKAGE. ON AVERAGE, A FAMILY WITH CHILDREN WILL BE BETTER OFF $78 A FORTNIGHT. AN INDIVIDUAL NEW ZEALANDER WILL BE BETTER OFF $32 A FORTNIGHT. I AM JUST GOING TO THE MESSAGE THAT YOU SOLD THROUGHOUT THE ELECTION CAMPAIGN. AND YOUR LEADER REPEATED IT TIME AND AGAIN, INCLUDING AFTER THE BUDGET, THERE ARE THREE TIMES AS MANY HOUSEHOLDS IN NEW ZEALAND WHO WILL BE WORSE OFF AS A RESULT OF TAX CHANGES THAT WILL GET THE MAXIMUM TAX CHANGES THAT YOU CAMPAIGNED ON. I DON'T THINK THE WAY YOU ARE CHARACTERISING IT IS FAIR. THOSE 9000 PEOPLE, ABOUT A DOLLAR A WEEK, TALKING ABOUT THE SIZE OF A TAX REFUND AT THE END OF THE YEAR. THE PEOPLE WE ARE TALKING ABOUT IN GENERAL WILL BENEFIT SIGNIFICANTLY. YOU HAVE SAID I AM WRONG. TELL ME WHAT IS WRONG ABOUT THE STATEMENT. ACCORDING TO OFFICIAL ADVICE, THREE TIMES AS MANY HOUSEHOLDS WILL BE WORSE OFF BECAUSE OF YOUR TAX CHANGES THAN THE NUMBER OF CHANGES WHO WILL RECEIVE THE MAXIMUM TAX CUT. THAT IS SELECTIVE DATA. YOU ARE LEAVING OUT MILLIONS OF NEW ZEALANDERS WHO WILL BE BETTER OFF. $250 YOU HAVE CAMPAIGNED ON, THERE WERE PLENTY OF EXAMPLES, WE CAN PLAY THE CLIP AGAIN. THERE ARE SO MANY EXAMPLES WE HAVE TALKED ABOUT $250 A FORTNIGHT, BUT MORE FAMILIES WILL BE WORSE OFF. JACK, EVERY WEEK IN THE ELECTION CAMPAIGN WE SAID TO NEW ZEALANDERS, GO AND VISIT OUR TAX CALCULATOR. THE REASON WE SAID THAT, IS BECAUSE PEOPLE CIRCUMSTANCES VARY. THEY WERE ELIGIBLE FOR UP TO $250. I ACKNOWLEDGE YOU HAVE FOUND SOME EXAMPLES WHERE THE PRIME MINISTER DID USE THAT PHRASE. I DIDN'T WRITE THE EMAIL, BUT I ACKNOWLEDGE THERE IS AN ERROR IN IT. A PERSON WITHOUT YOUNG KIDS, ON THE MEDIAN FULL-TIME WAGE GETS $34 A FORTNIGHT. YOU ARE REINTRODUCING PRESCRIPTION CHARGES, REINTRODUCING TUITION FEES, IN CREASING TUITION FEES BY 6%, HIKING LATE PAYMENTS, REMOVING PUBLIC TRANSPORT SUBSIDIES AND INTRODUCING ROAD USER CHARGES FOR ELECTRIC VEHICLES. WHAT ASSURANCES CAN YOU GIVE PEOPLE WHO THINK $17 A WEEK IS BEING EATEN UP THAT YOUR GOVERNMENT WON'T INTRODUCE NEW TAXES? FIRST OF ALL, YOUR TAX REDUCTION AS PERMANENT. THIS IS EACH AND EVERY WEEK, THAT RELIEF WILL COME TO YOU. WHAT PEOPLE HAVE EXPERIENCED IN RECENT YEARS IS WHAT REALLY EATS AWAY AT INCOME AND THE HOUSEHOLD BUDGET, INFLATION. WHAT TREASURY ARE FORECASTING IS AN INFLATION IS COMING BACK UNDER CONTROL, SO WE WON'T SEE THE LEVEL OF PRICE INCREASES. THAT IS MEANINGFUL FOR HOUSEHOLDS. I AM LOOKING FORWARD TO TALKING TO YOU ABOUT THE FISCAL DRAG. DURING THE ELECTION CAMPAIGN, NATIONAL PROMISED TO FUND 13 CANCER DRUGS. WHAT NEW ZEALANDERS WERE SET TO BENEFIT? ABOUT 1000 NEW ZEALANDERS WERE SET TO BENEFIT, AND I WANT THEM TO HEAR THIS MESSAGE TODAY, JACK. WE WILL MEET OUR COMMITMENT TO YOU. WE UNDERSTAND HOW IMPORTANT IT IS TO THOSE PATIENTS, FAMILIES AND LOVED ONES. AND WE WILL MEET THAT COMMITMENT WITH URGENCY. I EXPECT WE WILL BE IN A POSITION TO MAKE AN ANNOUNCEMENT VERY SOON THIS YEAR. WHY HAVEN'T YOU MADE IT YET? AS I HAVE SAID, WHEN WE CAME INTO OFFICE, WE INHERITED SOME FISCAL BOMBS WE WERE NOT EXPECTING. ONE OF THEM WAS THE SHORTFALL IN FUNDING FOR PHARMAC. WE KNEW THERE WAS A SMALL SHORTFALL THERE, BUT IT WAS FAR LARGER THAN WE HAD BEEN LED TO BELIEVE. THAT MEANT WE HAD TO FIND $1.8M WE MADE THE DECISION. THE NEXT STEP IS TO MAKE SURE WE HAVE A POLICY TO PURCHASE THOSE ADDITIONAL CANCER MEDICINES. I HAVE SPOKEN WITH DAVID SEYMOUR AND DOCTOR SHANE RETI AND THEY ARE CONFIDENT WE WILL COME UP WITH A FIXED SOON. TO BE CLEAR, WHILE IN GOVERNMENT HAVE YOU DIRECTED PHARMAC, HEALTH MINISTRY TO FORMALLY COST THAT POLICY? YES, WORK HAS STARTED. IFE COMPARED THE WAY PHARMAC HAD BEEN FUNDED WITH PREVIOUS BUDGETS. HELEN CLARK DID THE SAME THING. WHY ARE YOU SURPRISED BY THIS? FOR TWO REASONS, IF YOU LOOK AT THE LABOUR FISCAL PLAN... YOU HAD THE PREFU. WE BOTH CHOSE THE SAME NUMBER FOR PHARMAC, 800 MILLION. WHEN WE CAME INTO OFFICE, WE NEEDED A BILLION MORE. NEITHER LABOUR NOR NATIONAL CAMPAIGNED ON THAT. IT IS REASONABLE FOR US TO HAVE HAD THE VIEW WAS THAT WE WOULDN'T HAVE TO FIND THAT MONEY, AND WE DID, AND WE ARE PLEASED WE PRIORITISED IT, BECAUSE IF WE HAD FOUND THAT MONEY, THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN MEDICINES DELISTED THAT NEW ZEALANDERS RELY ON FOR THEIR ONGOING LIFE. I WANT TO THROW YOU A QUOTE. IT IS NOT RIGHT THE GOVERNMENT CAN FIND BILLIONS FOR SHANE JONES IS SLUSH FUND BUT NOT FOR DRUGS. THAT IS A QUOTE FROM SIMON BRIDGES AND HIS SPEECH AT THAT CONFERENCE RESULTED INTO THINGS, THE CREATION FOR THE CANCER CONTROL AGENCY, THE AGENCY THAT CAME UP WITH A LIST OF 13 CANCER DRUGS THAT WE ARE COMMITTED TO FUNDING. THE SECOND THING IS THIS ` WE WILL BE PRIORITISING FUNDING FOR CANCER DRUGS. THAT IS OUR COMMITMENT. NICOLA WILLIS IN 2019 IS THE SAME NICOLA WILLIS AS SHE IS NOW, AND I CONTINUE TO BELIEVE THAT. THIS IS YOU QUOTING SIMON BRIDGES IN 2019. WOULD YOUR MESSAGE TO THOSE PEOPLE WHO ARE RELYING ON DRUGS THAT YOU CAMPAIGNED ON AND HAVEN'T SEEN FUNDING THROUGH TO SET UP A GIVE A LITTLE PAGE? MY MESSAGES THIS ` WE UNDERSTAND HE WANTED TO SEE IT IN THE BUDGET, AND WE ARE WORKING WITH URGENCY SO THAT YOU CAN HAVE THE REASSURANCE THAT YOU DESERVE. WHY DIDN'T YOU PUT IT IN THE BUDGET? YOU HAVE CHOSEN OTHER THINGS. YOU HAVE CHOSEN TO FUND SHANE JONES' INFRASTRUCTURE FUND. THERE IS NOTHING THAT SAID YOU COULDN'T HAVE FOUND A WAY TO FUND THIS. YOU FACED FISCAL CONSTRAINTS. THE FIRST WAS STABILISING THE PHARMAC BUDGET AND WORKING OUT WHAT WAS REALLY GOING ON. THE SECOND POLICY ISSUE, WHICH YOU WILL UNDERSTAND, IS HOW WE PROCURE THOSE CANCER DRUGS. WE HAVE THREE OPTIONS ` BREAKING CONVENTION ON PHARMAC AND DIRECTING THEM TO PURCHASE THOSE SPECIFIC DRUGS. THE SECOND IS TO SET UP A CANCER CONTROL AUTHORITY TO PURCHASE THEM; THE THIRD IS TO PROVIDE MUCH MORE SIGNIFICANT FUNDING TO PHARMAC WHICH WOULD ALLOW THEM TO PURCHASE BOTH THE CANCER DRUGS AND THE WIDER DRUGS, AND WE ARE WORKING THROUGH THAT POLICY. WE UNDERSTAND THE URGENCY. WE ARE GOING TO MAKE THOSE DECISIONS SHORTLY, SO THAT PEOPLE CAN UNDERSTAND ON WHAT DATE THEY WILL BE ABLE TO ACCESS THOSE MEDICINES. YOU HAVE BEEN IN GOVERNMENT SIX MONTHS. I AM JUST BEING HONEST WITH YOU. WE HAD TO WORK THROUGH THE FISCAL BOMB WHICH WAS THIS HOLE IN THE PHARMAC BUDGET. YOU DO HAVE PRESIDENT. PRESIDENT. PRESIDENT. WHAT YEAR DID YOU JOIN JOHN KEY'S OFFICE? HERCEPTIN IS A GOOD EXAMPLE. I HAD BEEN WORKING WITH JOHN KEY IN 2008, BUT I WAS WITH HIM PRIOR TO THAT. YOU HAD A FRONT ROW SEAT TO THE WAY THE PREVIOUS NATIONAL GOVERNMENT STRUCTURED A VEHICLE OR MECHANISM TO FUND HERCEPTIN. YOU COULD HAVE BROUGHT THAT INTO GOVERNMENT. YOU HAVE BEEN THERE SIX MONTHS. I AM HAPPY TO GO INTO THAT. ABOUT FIVE MEDICINES ON THE LIST OF 13 AREN'T CURRENTLY REGISTERED OR APPROVED, SO THAT IS A SEPARATE PROCESS. THERE IS ALSO THE CHALLENGE OF WORKING OUT WHERE ON THE CURRENT LIST THESE MEDICINES ARE FOR PHARMAC. THE LIST IS CONFIDENTIAL. MINISTERS DON'T GET ACCESS. THERE IS A LOT TO WORK THROUGH AN UNDERSTANDING HOW MUCH FUNDING IS REQUIRED. A LOT MORE FUNDING WILL BE REQUIRED TO GET THESE DRUGS. LAST QUESTION ON THIS` WITH THE BENEFIT OF HINDSIGHT, COULD YOU HAVE DONE A BETTER JOB OF COMMUNICATING THIS PROCESS. I ACCEPT THAT. I WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE POOREST NEW ZEALANDERS. YOUR GOVERNMENT IS CHANGING THE WAY THAT BENEFIT INCREASES OUR CALCULATOR, FROM INDEXING TO WEIGHT INCREASES FROM INFLATION. WAGE GROWTH WILL OUTSTRIP THE CPI, MEANING BENEFICIARIES WILL HAVE LESS THEN THEY WOULD UNDER THE OLD SYSTEM. WHAT WILL BE THE IMPACT OF GIVING BENEFICIARIES LESS MONEY. ON CHILD POVERTY? AT MEANS THOSE ON PAGE WORK PAID WORK CAN EXPECT INCOMES TO GROW. WE ISSUED A CHILD POVERTY REPORT. AT THE MARGIN, OUR TAX PACKAGE MEANS FEWER CHILDREN WILL BE IN POVERTY ACCORDING TO ONE MEASURE, THE AFTER HOUSING MEASURE. OUR GOVERNMENT PHILOSOPHICALLY BELIEVES THAT THE WAY TO HELP CHILDREN OUT OF POVERTY ISN'T SIMPLY TO INCREASE THE VALUE OF BENEFITS IT IS TO HELP PARENTS INTO WORK. THAT DOESN'T ANSWER THE QUESTION. WHAT WILL BE THE IMPACT OF GIVING BENEFICIARIES LEFT MONEY ON CHILD POVERTY RATES? AS YOU HAVE SEEN IN THE REPORT, WE ARE NOT SEEING ANY RESULT IN CHILD POVERTY RATES. YOU PHILOSOPHICALLY BELIEVE GETTING PEOPLE INTO WORK IS THE BEST WAY OF LIFTING THEM OUT OF POVERTY. THE MINISTRY OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT REPORT FOUND TRANSFERS PARTICULAR BENEFITS AND WORKING FAMILIES ARE LIKELY TO PLAY THE BIGGEST ROLE, AS TAX CHANGES ARE DIFFICULT TO TARGET THOSE IN POVERTY. TREASURY AND THE RESERVE BANK THE POOREST ARE GOING TO BE EVEN POORER. WHAT IS YOUR MESSAGE TO THOSE PEOPLE? YOUR BENEFIT WILL INCREASE EVERY YEAR, MUCH LESS THAN IT WOULD HAVE UNDER THE PREVIOUS SYSTEM. IT IS NOT A CUTBACK. WHEN YOU ACCEPT THIS ` BY CHANGING THE WAY THEY ARE INDEXED, BENEFICIARIES WILL RECEIVE LESS THEN THEY WOULD HAVE UNDER THE PREVIOUS SYSTEM? DO YOU KNOW HOW THEY WILL RECEIVE MORE? BY GETTING A JOB. DO YOU ACCEPT THAT FUNDAMENTAL POINT? THE ANSWER IS NOT TO SAY TO SOMEONE, PLEASE STAY ON A BENEFIT. THAT IS NO HOPE FOR ANYONE. NO ONE IS INSISTING PEOPLE SALE BENEFITS FOR A LONG TIME. BY CHANGING THE INDEXING OF BENEFITS, DO YOU ACCEPT THAT ON CURRENT FORECASTS, BENEFICIARIES WILL RECEIVE LESS MONEY THAN UNDER THE PREVIOUS SYSTEM? YES, BUT I DON'T ACCEPT THAT THAT IS WHAT WE ARE SIGNING PEOPLE UP FOR. WE ARE FAR MORE AMBITIOUS FOR PEOPLE. THE FORECASTS, UNEMPLOYMENT WILL BE ABOVE 5% SOON. BECAUSE OF ECONOMIC CONDITIONS OUTSIDE OF THE CONTROL OF THESE PEOPLE. WE INHERITED A RECESSION, A COST OF LIVING CRISIS, WE HAD A GOVERNMENT THAT MISMANAGED THE ECONOMY FOR SIX YEARS. WE ARE DOING A CLEANUP. PART OF OUR CLEANUP IS GETTING PEOPLE OFF THE JOBSEEKER BENEFIT INTO WORK. WE ARE FOCUSED ON THAT AS THE BEST PATH OUT OF POVERTY. EDUCATION IS THE BEST WAY THAT WE CAN FREE PEOPLE... YOUR CUTTING FUNDING FOR 40 BUDGETING SERVICES. WE ARE CONTINUING TO FUND BUDGETING SERVICES. THERE WAS A BOOST POST COVID 19. THAT WAS ALWAYS TIME-LIMITED. MSD ARE IN CHARGE OF PROCURING BUDGETING SERVICES THAT THEY BELIEVE ARE EFFECTIVE. CONTRACTS SELECTIVE AS A PROCUREMENT MATTER AT OPERATIONAL LEVEL. YOU ARE CLEANING UP. ALL GOVERNMENTS FACE CHOICES. YOUR GOVERNMENT HAS CHOSEN TO GIVE $3 BILLION IN TAX CHANGES TO LANDLORDS WHILE CHANGING THE INDEXING FOR BENEFITS. THERE WERE TWO COMPLETED CHILD POVERTY FORECASTS IN THE BUDGET DOCUMENTS. LET'S LOOK AT THOSE. AFTER HOUSING COSTS. STILL MISSING 2028 TARGET. A STRAIGHT LINE, JACK. LET'S LOOK AT 2028 TARGETS. WE WILL COME BACK TO THAT GRAPHIC IN A SECOND. WITH YOUR GOVERNMENT ACHIEVE THOSE 2028 TARGETS? WE ARE COMING FROM BEHIND, BECAUSE THE LAST GOVERNMENTS OR CHILD POVERTY INCREASE. THE REASON THAT HAPPENED WAS BECAUSE THEY LET INFLATION RUN COMPLETELY OUT OF CONTROL. WHAT THEY PROVED WAS YOU CAN SPRAY THE MONEY GUN, BUT IF YOU DON'T MANAGE THE ECONOMY WELL, IT IS WORSE FOR EVERYONE. WE ARE DETERMINED TO MANAGE THE ECONOMY RESPONSIBLY AND PROVIDE AN UPLIFT FOR EVERYONE. THAT DOESN'T ANSWER THE QUESTION. WHAT YOUR GOVERNMENT COMMITTED TO HITTING THOSE 2028 CHILD POVERTY REDUCTION TARGETS? THAT REMAINS A TARGET, BUT IT WOULD BE CHALLENGING TO MEET. THAT SOUNDS LIKE A NO. WE STILL ARE TARGETING THAT TARGET. INTERESTING. WE WILL TALK ABOUT THE BIG PICTURE STUFF IN A SECOND. STAY WITH US ` WE'RE BACK WITH NICOLA WILLIS AFTER THE BREAK. WELCOME BACK TO Q+A AND FINANCE MINISTER NICOLA WILLIS. BIG PICTURE, YOU WERE A CRITIC OF GRANT ROBERTSON, HOW MANY OF HIS BUDGET DEFICITS WERE GREETED SO GREATER THAN YOURS? THEY WILL BE GREATER THAN WE HAVE HAD IN OUR FIRST TWO BUDGETS, AND I ACCEPT THAT WE HAVE INHERITED ECONOMY THAT HAS SLOWED DOWN CONSIDERABLY. WE WILL HAVE A LARGE DEFICIT, AND THAT IS REGRETTABLE, BUT WHAT MATTERS IS GETTING IT DOWN AND WE HOPE TO ACHIEVE IT BY THE 2028 FINANCIAL YEAR IF WE HAD STUCK TO THE LAST GOVERNMENT'S PLEDGE, WE WOULD NOT GET THEM BACK TO FINANCIAL ORDER BY 2031. YOU DID NOT ANSWER MY QUESTION, HOW MANY OF GRANT'S ROBERTSONS BUDGETS DEFICITS WERE GREATER? I THINK IT WAS ONE, YOU COUNT COVID. IF YOU DID NOT INTRODUCE TAX CUTS, WOULD YOU REQUIRE MORE OR LESS BORROWING? IT WOULD BE THE SAME, BECAUSE OUR TAX REDUCTION PACKAGE HAS BEEN FULLY OFFSET WITH SAVINGS FROM ELSEWHERE, AND IT HAS BEEN DELIVERED IN THE CONTEXT OF A SMALL OPERATING ALLOWANCE. THE OVERALL POSITION OF WHAT THE GOVERNMENT IS REQUIRING IS LOWER THAN WHAT OTHERWISE... SO EVERYTHING ELSE REMAINS THE SAME? YOUR REPRIORITISATIONS... AND WHAT HYPOTHETICAL LAND ARE YOU LIVING, I DON'T THINK A SINGLE PARTY IN PARLIAMENT HAVE SAID THEY ARE GOING TO DO THE SAVINGS FOR THE SAKE OF DOING THEM. FOR LABOUR TO CLAIM THAT WE SHOULDN'T BE REDUCING THE AMOUNT OF SPENDING ON AGENCIES, OR THREE WATERS, ALL OF THOSE DECISIONS HAVE HELPED US FUND TAX RELIEF. IF YOU CAN'T BORROW ANY MORE MONEY, IF YOU TAKE $10 BILLION OF REVENUE OUT OF YOUR BUDGET... I DO TAKE YOUR POINT. IF YOU DID CHOOSE TO BANK THOSE CUTS, AS OPPOSED TO INTRODUCED TAX CUTS.... I JUST ATTEMPTED TO LIVE IN THE REAL WORLD, AS OPPOSED TO YOUR HYPOTHETICAL ONE. ONE WE WENT BEYOND TAX CUTS, WE FOUND ON AN ANNUAL BASIS, $5.9 BILLION ` THAT'S 23 OVER THAT NEXT FEW YEARS. IT MEANS WE CAN LIVE WITHIN OUR MEANS. THERE IS NOTHING THAT STOPS YOU TO CHOOSE BANKING THOSE SAVINGS. THERE IS, I LOOKED A LOT OF PEOPLE IN THE EYE DURING THE ELECTION CAMPAIGN, AND SAID TAX RELIEF IS COMING, WE'RE GOING TO HELP YOU. SO WAS A CHOICE. SO IN ORDER TO FOLLOW THROUGH WITH YOUR PROMISES THROUGHOUT THE CAMPAIGN, YOU ARE BORROWING $12 BILLION ON TOP OF THE DEBT OR REALLY FORECAST WHILE ANNOUNCING THOSE TAX CUTS. IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT... NOT GOING TO ACCEPT THAT POINT, LET ME ADDRESS THAT/ YOU DON'T EXPECT EXCEPT THAT YOU ARE BORROWING 12 MILLION ON TOP OF WHAT WAS ALREADY FORECAST. WHILE ANNOUNCING YOUR GOVERNMENT'S PLANS. WE AGREE ON THAT? CAN I JUST TALK ABOUT WHERE THAT 12 BILLION IS COMING FROM. ONE, THE EXPECTATIONS OF THE SIZE OF OUR ECONOMY HAS STRUNG SIGNIFICANTLY THINK WE CAME TO OFFICE. SECONDLY, THE TAKE FROM CORPORATE TAX IS REDUCED SIGNIFICANTLY, AND THIRD, PROJECTIONS FOR PRODUCTIVITY HAVE REDUCING EVIDENTLY. SO ALL THE PROJECTIONS FOR REVENUE ARE REDUCED. I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT THAT PEOPLE UNDERSTAND WHAT THEIR NUMBER IS ABOUT. DO YOU ACT ACCEPT THAT THAT BURDEN WILL FALL ON FUTURE GENERATIONS OF TAXPAYERS? YES, IF WE DID NOT START PAYING THAT DEBT DOWN, IT WOULD BE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. THERE ARE GENERATIONS THAT WILL HAVE TO PAY THROUGH INCREASED REVENUE, INCREASED TAXATION... FROM 27, 28, WE ARE PLANNING TO BE IN SURPLUS. THAT IS AN ONGOING PLAN, THAT WE ARE HAVING A RESPONSIBLE BALANCED BUDGET SO WE CAN PAY THAT DEBT DOWN. WE'RE NOT GOING TO LEAVE THE DEBT TO KEEP GROWING FOR FUTURE GENERATIONS. WE HAVE SET A LOWER DEBT TARGET THAN THAT WAS LEFT TO US. THAT IS A LONG TIME. IT IS, BUT THERE ARE OTHER PARTIES IN PARLIAMENT THEY BELIEVE THAT DEBT SHOULD GROW. THE BUDGET HAS VERY LITTLE IN THE WAY OF SUPPLY-SIDE REFORM THAT I COULD SEE. WHAT WILL YOU DO TO ENCOURAGE PRIVATE INVESTMENT? THE BEST THING WE COULD DO IS ENCOURAGE A REDUCTION IN INTEREST RATES. ANY CONSTRUCTION FIRM WILL TELL YOU THAT FEWER CUSTOMERS ARE COMING THROUGH THE DOOR, AND THEY ARE RELUCTANT TO BORROW TO INVEST. WE WANT TO TAKE A RESPONSIBLE FISCAL STANCE THAT TAKES THE PRESSURE OFF INFLATION, WE SHOULD MEAN THAT INTEREST RATES COULD BE LOWER THAN THEY ARE. NO CHANGE TO THE TOP MARGINAL TAX RATE? WE MADE A CHOICE THAT WILL BE FOCUSED ON LOWER MIDDLE INCOME FAMILIES AND WE FOLLOWED THROUGH WITH THAT COMMITMENT. 2010 WAS THE LAST TIME THAT TAX BRACKETS WERE ADJUSTED, HOW MANY YEARS FISCAL DRAG WILL YOUR CHANGES ACCOUNT FOR? EVEN JUST THE PAST THREE YEARS HAVE BEEN ABOUT 19%... DROP IN THE OCEAN. YES, THAT'S RIGHT, AND THAT IS WHY I FIND IT REMARKABLE THAT THE LABOUR PARTY VOTED AGAINST ANY FORM OF TAX RELIEF, DESPITE THAT TERRIBLE INEQUITY OF NOT ADJUSTING TAX THRESHOLDS. WE WILL ASK THE LABOUR PARTY, ABOUT THAT, BUT IF YOU FEEL SO STRONGLY ABOUT THAT INJUSTICE, WILL YOU AS FINANCE MINISTER COMMIT TO AUTOMATICALLY INDEXINGB TAX BRACKETS? WHY NOT HAVE AUTOMATIC INDEXING? WE DID NOT CAMPAIGN ON THAT. AS FINANCE MINISTER, WHAT IS THE PROBLEM WITH THAT IDEA? IT IS IMPORTANT TO GET THE BOOKS... I WANT TO KNOW WHAT YOUR FALSITY IS AS FINE MINUTES MINISTER. WHY WOULD THAT BE A BAD IDEA? WE WANT TO REDUCE THE AMOUNT OF GOVERNMENT SPENDING AS A PROPORTION OF THE OVERALL ECONOMY, WE WANT TO GET THE DEBT TRACKING DOWN AND TAX PEOPLE FAIRLY, WE SHOULD BE A WEALTHIER COUNTRY THAT CONTINUE TO ADJUST TAX BRACKETS. SO YOU DO NOT HAVE A POSITION ON IT. MY POSITION AS THE GOVERNMENT'S POSITION, AND WE ARE NOT INDEXING TAX BRACKETS. WHY IS IT NOT YOUR POLICY? BECAUSE NEW ZEALAND CANNOT AFFORD IT RIGHT NOW. IT IS CRITICALLY IMPORTANT THAT NEW ZEALAND GET ITS BOOKS BACK INTO BALANCE AND I AM PROUD THAT WE ARE MAKING ADJUSTMENTS FOR THE FIRST TIME IN 14 YEARS. YOU ARE RIGHT, THERE ARE COUNTRIES THAT MAKE ADJUSTMENTS - I NEED TO LOOK REALISTICALLY AT THE BOOKS WE HAVE INHERITED. I SEE SYSTEMS THAT WILL CONTINUE TO NEED MORE FUNDING AND I KNOW THAT IF I DID THAT AUTOMATIC ADJUSTMENT WE WOULD NOT BE UNDER MAKE THOSE INVESTMENTS. WE ARE TAKING A RESPONSIBLE COURSE. WILL ALL WORKERS GET THE TAX CUTS IN THEIR PAY AFTER JULY 31? YES, THEY SHOULD DO, THE ADVICE WE HAVE HAD FROM THE IRD SAID THAT SOME PAYROLL PROVIDERS MAY FIND IT A CHALLENGING TIMELINE, THERE COULD BE SITUATIONS WHERE SOME PAYROLL PROVIDERS FIND IT DIFFICULT, IF THEY ARE ABLE TO MAKE THE CHANGE IN TIME THEY SHOULD BE ABLE TO ADJUST IT FOR THE NEXT PAY. $3.2 BILLION WAS YOUR OPERATING ALLOWANCE ` YOU UP $3.2 BILLION WAS YOUR OPERATING ALLOWANCE ` YOU ARE PROMISING 2.4 BILLION OF SPENDING, HOW WE COULD ACHIEVE THAT? ONGOING SAVINGS, WE HAVE PROVEN WHAT IS POSSIBLE IF YOU GO THROUGH LINE BY LINE THROUGH ELEMENT SPENDING AND BRING REAL FOCUS. WE ARE CONFIDENT THAT OVER THESE NEXT FEW MONTHS WE WILL FIND OTHER AREAS TO RE-PRIORITISE. YOU ARE BORROWING MORE, AND YOU HAVE A GREATER DEFICIT THAN ANY OF GRANT ROBERTSON'S. THE TREASURY REPORT INDICATES THIS. THEY ARE CORRECT, WE WILL HAVE TO FIND OTHER REPRIORITISATION IS TO ADD TO THE OPERATING ALLOWANCE. OVERALL WE HAVE SPENT MORE LIKE 9 MILLION WHEN YOU ACCOUNT FOR ALL THE INCREASES. WE ACHIEVE THAT BY SAVINGS AND REPRIORITISATION. WE HAVE GONE THROUGH AND FOUND A LOT OF WASTE. NEW ZEALAND DOES EXPECT US TO KEEP FINDING THAT WASTE AND EFFICIENCIES, KEEP DRIVING VALUE, THAT IS WHAT WE WERE ELECTED TO DO. THE LAST GOVERNMENT DIDN'T THINK IT WAS POSSIBLE. YOU HAMMERED GRANT ROBERTSON TODAY FOR GOING OVER HIS ALLOWANCES ` GIVE OUR VIEWERS AND ASSURANCE THIS MORNING THAT YOU WILL NOT DO THE SAME THING, THAT YOU WILL NOT GO THOSE OPERATING ALLOWANCES? WE ARE GOING TO KEEP THOSE OPERATING ALLOWANCES, AND THE BEST TEST OF THAT IS IN OUR FIRST BUDGET, WE KEPT THE OPERATING ALLOWANCE THAT NATIONAL CAMPAIGN ON, DESPITE INHERITING THE FISCAL CLIFFS, A COMPLETE BASKET CASE. I HAVE MADE SOME SMALL EXEMPTIONS FOR A TERRIBLE PANDEMIC OF A MASSIVE NATURAL DISASTER. I THINK NEW ZEALAND WOULD ACCEPT THAT. I HAVE RECEIVED ADVICE THAT NEW ZEALAND'S CREDIT WILL NOT BE DOWNGRADED. IF YOU WANT TO CONTACT Q+A TEAM, PLEASE KORERO MAI. THESE ARE OUR MAIN PLATFORMS. YOU CAN EMAIL US, YOU CAN FIND US ON X OR ON FACEBOOK. NEXT ` THERE'S JUST ONE REMAINING TUTOR AT ONE REMAINING COURSE FOR TEACHING PEOPLE HOW TO CLASS WOOL. AND ` YOU GUESSED IT ` LAURIE WANTS TO RETIRE. ONCE A STAPLE OF NEW ZEALAND'S ECONOMY, SHEEP FARMING IS NOW IN CRISIS. AND SOME OF THE CRUCIAL SKILLS THAT UNDERPIN THE WOOL INDUSTRY ARE AT RISK OF BEING LOST, WITH NOBODY LEFT TO TEACH THEM. WHENA OWEN REPORTS. (SHEEP BLEAT) AH, YES. THE 1980S ` PEAK SHEEP. THERE WERE 72 MILLION OF THEM ` NOW THERE IS JUST UNDER 25 MILLION. (CLIPPERS BUZZ) (DOG BARKS) WATCH OUT. IN THE PROCESSING CHAIN FROM SHEEP'S BACK TO FINAL PRODUCT, THE WOOL GRADER AND CLASSER WAS KEY ` STILL IS. (BRIGHT ORCHESTRAL MUSIC) WOOL CLASSING COURSES WERE RUN OUT OF LINCOLN COLLEGE AND MASSEY, WHICH LED TO CERTIFICATION AS A WOOL CLASSER. NOW THERE'S JUST ONE COURSE REMAINING ` IT'S MAINLY ONLINE AND RUN OUT OF THE SIT ` AND ONE REMAINING TUTOR. LET'S ASSUME THIS IS A WHOLE FLEECE. YOU KNOW? YEAH. IT'S THE WHOLE FLEECE OFF ONE SHEEP. LAURIE BONIFACE IS HIS NAME, AND HE'S A LEGEND IN THE WOOL INDUSTRY. APART FROM THE BLOCK COURSES, HE WORKS FROM HIS PALMERSTON NORTH HOME, BUT HE'S RETIRING, AND FINDING A REPLACEMENT TUTOR HAS PROVED DIFFICULT FOR OUR LAST WOOL-CLASSING COURSE. WE'VE GOT ONE TERTIARY-LEVEL COURSE IN THE COUNTRY. THIS CANNOT FAIL. I'VE SPOKEN TO A NUMBER OF MANAGERS` AND THIS IS IT? THIS IS IT. THIS IS IT. YEAH. THERE IS NO MORE. (PENSIVE MUSIC) YOU COULD SAY THIS SCENARIO IS REFLECTIVE OF THE CURRENT STATE OF THE WOOL SECTOR. THE INDUSTRY IS AT REAL RISK OF DISAPPEARING. FORMER SHEEP FARMER TOM O'SULLIVAN THINKS HE'S FOUND AN ANSWER FOR NEW ZEALAND STRONG WOOL, BUT MORE ON THAT LATER. WHILE MERINO IS TAKING OFF, 80% OF WOOL PRODUCED HERE IS STRONG WOOL. ARCHIVE: THE LAST TRIM, A FINAL PRESS, AND IT'S READY FOR THE NEW ADDRESS. IT WAS USED IN CARPETS BEFORE SYNTHETICS SHOWED WOOL THE DOOR. (CLIPPERS BUZZ) WOOL PRICES ARE NOW SO LOW IT ACTUALLY COSTS FARMERS TO SHEAR THEIR SHEEP. THEY'RE LOOKING FOR A MIRACLE. A LOT OF TALK, BUT NO ACTION. NOTHING'S HAPPENED, AND I THINK IT WOULD BE FAIR TO SAY IF YOU ASK ANY STRONG WOOL FARMER IN THE COUNTRY TODAY, THEY WOULD BE... I THINK IT WOULD BE FAIR TO SAY THEY'RE OUTRAGED, ABSOLUTELY OUTRAGED AT THE LACK OF ACTION. SAT DOWN TODAY AND JUST THOUGHT I'D TAKE A BIT OF A LOOK ROUND THE FARM OUT HERE AT LAWRENCE. THIS OTAGO FARMER WAS OUTRAGED TOO. THAT'S A VERY APPROPRIATE PHOTOGRAPH FOR AN ASSOCIATE AGRICULTURE` WELL, YOU'RE RESPONSIBLE FOR WOOL, AREN'T YOU? YES, I AM. NO, IT'S... THAT FARMER, NEW ZEALAND FIRST'S MARK PATTERSON, HOPES TO LEAD WHAT HE HOPES IS A REVIVAL FOR WOOL. I JUST WANT TO SEE PROFITABILITY GETTING BACK INTO HILL COUNTRY FARMING. I WANT TO SEE WOOL BEING A BIG PART OF THAT, AND I WANT TO SEE, ONCE AGAIN, A PRIDE IN A PRODUCT THAT, YOU KNOW, IS A MAGNIFICENT NATURAL FIBRE AND BEING VALUED FOR WHAT IT ACTUALLY IS, RATHER THAN THE TRAVESTY WE'VE GOT AT THE MOMENT. BACK WITH NEW ZEALAND'S LAST WOOL CLASSING TUTOR, I'M LEARNING SOME NEW SKILLS ` A WISE MOVE, PERHAPS, FOR A JOURNALIST. THAT'S THE BUTT... OF THE STAPLE, AT THE BOTTOM? OH! UP THE WRONG WAY. OK. OK, SO` IT'S A GOOD START, THOUGH. IS IT? GREAT START, YEAH. NICE CRIMPING. LAURIE STARTED IN THE WOOL INDUSTRY IN 1964 AS A WOOLSHED SMOKO BOY. HE THEN DID A DIPLOMA IN WOOL CLASSING, AND IN THE '80S, STARTED TEACHING. THE BIGGEST THING THAT I TELL ANY STUDENT... PERSON, IF YOU'VE GOT PASSION IN THE FIBRE, YOU WILL SUCCEED. NO QUESTION. YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE A ROCKET SCIENTIST. YOU JUST HAVE TO HAVE PASSION. FOR WOOL. FOR WOOL. YEP. IT GETS IN YOUR VEINS. (PENSIVE MUSIC) DESPITE THE STATE OF THE INDUSTRY, THERE ARE THOSE WITH A PASSION FOR THE FIBRE WHO ARE CONVINCED WE'RE ON THE CUSP OF SOMETHING BIG FOR WOOL, BECAUSE THE WORLD IS DEMANDING NATURAL PRODUCTS. MARKETING GROUPS LIKE WOOL IMPACT SAY, 'WATCH THIS SPACE.' BREMWORTH CARPETS HAVE COMMITTED TO WOOL, AND TOM O'SULLIVAN HAS JUST LAUNCHED FLOC ` WOOLLEN WALL PANELS AND ACOUSTICS. PARTICULARLY IN THE BUILT ENVIRONMENT IN THE LAST FEW DECADES, THE MAJORITY OF LININGS ON WALLS, AND CEILINGS FOR THAT MATTER, ARE MADE FROM PETROCHEMICAL OR PLASTIC, SYNTHETIC PRODUCTS. WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO DO` AND THE BUILT INDUSTRY, NOT ONLY HERE IN NEW ZEALAND, BUT GLOBALLY, HAVE RECOGNISED THAT, AND IT'S BECOMING MORE AND MORE OF A FOCUS FOR THEM, TO TRY AND REPLACE SOME OF THESE PLASTICS AND PUT NATURAL PRODUCTS ` SO, WOOD AND WOOL. AND THIS IS A BEAUTIFUL WOOLLEN OPTION. HE COULD BE IN LUCK. IN A COALITION DEAL, NEW ZEALAND FIRST AND NATIONAL HAVE AGREED TO FAVOUR THE SAFER, HEALTHIER WOOLLEN SURFACES OVER SYNTHETIC WHEN FITTING OUT GOVERNMENT BUILDINGS, INCLUDING SCHOOLS AND SOCIAL HOUSING. IF WE ARE NOT GOING TO BE PREPARED TO USE THIS PRODUCT, HOW CAN WE EXPECT ANYONE ELSE TO? SO WE'RE PRETTY MUCH LOOKING TO LEAD FROM THE FRONT HERE. (SHEPHERD WHISTLES, SHEEP BLEAT) THEY'RE NOT THE ONLY ONES LEADING BY EXAMPLE ` DON'T JUST TALK THE TALK, WEAR IT. I'M WEARING SOME VERY, VERY SMART GENTS' NATTY NEW ZEALAND WOOL. THAT LOOKS LIKE WOOL. IS THAT A WOOLLEN CARDIGAN? IT IS, YEAH. THAT'S A WOOLLEN CARDIGAN. I GOT IT IN AN OP SHOP. 1960S, NEW ZEALAND-MADE. MODELLING WOOL ACTIVIST WEAR, THE GREENS' STEVE ABEL SAYS WOOL TICKS ALL THE BOXES. WE NEED TO BACK WOOL, AND WE HAVE MULTI-PARTY SUPPORT FOR IT ` CERTAINLY IN WORD. WE NEED TO PUT OUR MONEY WHERE OUR MOUTH IS, AND MY CALL FOR THIS GOVERNMENT IS THAT WHAT DOES IT LOOK LIKE IF WE'RE TRULY BACKING WOOL? HOW ARE WE INVESTING IN IT, HOW ARE WE MAKING SURE WE HAVE THE ABILITY TO MANUFACTURE DOMESTICALLY AND GET THIS INDUSTRY BACK SO IT'S PROFITABLE AND VIABLE, AND CONTRIBUTING SOMETHING REALLY USEFUL TO THE WORLD? (DOG BARKS) BUT THERE IS NO REVIVAL OF WOOL WITHOUT TRAINED WOOL GRADERS AND CLASSERS. LAURIE BONIFACE HAS BEEN FIELDING CALLS FROM WORRIED STUDENTS. HE'S RETIRING THIS MONTH, BUT HAS OFFERED TO MARK PAPERS. SIT HAS REDUCED THE HOURS OF THE TUTORING ROLE, BUT TOLD Q+A THEY'RE COMMITTED TO FINDING A REPLACEMENT FOR LAURIE AND RUNNING THE COURSE. IT'S A ABSOLUTE ESSENTIAL COURSE, AND, YOU KNOW, IN MY EYES, IT'S A MUST. IT'S GOT TO CONTINUE. IT MUST CONTINUE. THAT IS LAURIE, ALONGSIDE WHENA OWEN. AFTER THE BREAK ` A RETURN OF THE FAMOUS Q+A PANEL. THE 2024 BUDGET AND TE PATI MAORI'S BIG INDEPENDENCE PLAY. NICOLA WILLIS HAS DELIVERED HER FIRST BUDGET, INCLUDING INCOME TAX CUTS, WITH FORECASTS FOR THE COMING YEARS INDICATING THE NEXT FEW BUDGETS COULD BE VERY TIGHT INDEED. GIVEN THE OCCASION, WE WANTED TO BRING BACK THE Q+A PANEL ` NATIONAL PARTY MEMBER, LAWYER, COMMENTATOR, LIAM HEHIR, AND FORMER LABOUR MINISTER AND TE PATI MAORI CANDIDATE, CONSULTANT, MEMBER OF TE PATI MAORI, MEKA WHAITIRI. KIA ORA KORUA. LIAM, LET'S START WITH YOU. THIS BUDGET HAS BEEN CRITICISED FROM THE ECONOMIC RIGHT FOR HIGH SPENDING AND BORROWING AND RELATIVELY MODEST TAX CUTS. THAT CAME THROUGH IN THE CURIA POLL. MOST OF THE COUNTRY, THE MIDDLE OF THE COUNTRY, THINKING IT WAS ABOUT RIGHT, BUT A SIGNIFICANT RIGHTWARD SECTION SAYING THE TAX CUTS WERE TOO SMALL. WE ARE OPERATING IN A CONSTRAINED ENVIRONMENT. IF YOU WANT TO LOOK AT THE COUNTERFACTUAL, THE MIKE HOSKING OR MATTHEW HOOTON ROUTE, YOU HAVE A LIZ TRUSS BUDGET, WE WOULD HAVE CHRISTOPHER LUXON OUT IN A MONTH. YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT THE REALITY OF HOW POLITICS WORKS IN THIS COUNTRY. NATIONAL DELIVERED NO MORE OR LESS THAN WHAT THEY CAMPAIGNED ON IN INCOME TAX RATES. A 30 DAY DIFFERENCE. IT IS MODEST, BUT THE REASON MOST PEOPLE HAVE ACCEPTED IT AND THE MIDDLE OF THE COUNTRY HAS ACCEPTED IT, IS BECAUSE THEY NEEDED TO BE AN ADJUSTMENT. THE RATES HAVE BEEN ADJUSTED FOR 14 YEARS. MEKA, THE LEFT HAVE BEEN SAYING IT IS SAVAGE CUTS ON PUBLIC SERVICES. IT IS ALSO A SAVAGE CUT ON MAORI INITIATIVES THAT HAVE BEEN FOUGHT FOR FOR MANY YEARS. THE MAORI HEALTH AUTHORITY, REO, HOUSING, THAT IS ALL GONE. THAT'S WAY HAVE SEEN THE ACTIVATION HUIS, THOUSANDS TURNING UP. THE REACTION IS WHAT YOU HAVE SEEN ON THE STREETS. THE HUI TAUMATA, WHERE IWI LEADERS ARE SAYING WE HAVE TO DEPEND ON OURSELVES. NOT JUST FOR MAORIDOM, FOR THE NATION. I WILL ASK YOU ABOUT THE HUI, AS WELL AS TE PATI MAORI'S BIG CALLS. BACK TO THE BUDGET, DOES LIAM HAVE A POINT AROUND THE FAIRNESS OF INDEXING? THE BRACKETS HAVE BEEN CHANGED SINCE 2010. ANYTHING THAT GETS MONEY INTO THE POCKETS OF OUR PEOPLE, AND THIS BUDGET DOESN'T DELIVER TO LOW AND MIDDLE INCOME EARNERS. THE MEASLY INCREASES WILL BE CONSUMED BY RISING RENTS. THOSE THAT HAVE INSURANCE, THE RATES, BECAUSE WE HAVE TO FIX OUR OWN WATER PIPES, THERE WILL BE ENORMOUS PRESSURE THAT THIS BUDGET ISN'T PROVIDING FOR. AROUND INCOME THRESHOLDS, WE SUPPORT THAT, BUT ULTIMATELY, THE IMMEDIATE GAINS IS MEAGRE IN TERMS OF THE COST OF LIVING PRESSURES. I AGREE THAT THE RENTS ADJUSTMENT IS MODEST, AND IN ISOLATION, IT IS NOT HUGE. AND INTERESTING POINT WAS NICOLA WILLIS SAID IT IS NOT COALITION POLICY, ACTUALLY, IT WAS NATIONAL POLICY TO INDEX TAX RATES AUTOMATICALLY, IT IS ACT THAT OPPOSE IT. THEY OPPOSE INDEXATION BECAUSE THEY WANT FLAT TAX. INDEXING TAX RATES MAKES TAX RATES MORE PROGRESSIVE. IT'S INTERESTING THAT THE LEFT IS OPPOSING THIS EFFORT TO MAKE THE TAX SYSTEM MORE PROGRESSIVE. IT IS ALSO ARGUABLY NOT IN A FINANCE MINISTER'S BEST INTEREST TO HAVE AUTOMATIC INDEXATION. MICHAEL CULLEN SUGGESTED IT, BUT FISCAL DRAG IS AWAY FINANCE MINISTERS CAN BRING IN SLIGHTLY MORE MONEY THAN OTHERWISE. THERE HAS BEEN SO MUCH FISCAL DRAG THAT IT WOULD BE CREDIBILITY DESTROYING IF THE GOVERNMENT COULDN'T PULL IT OFF. IT HAS LEFT THINGS SO TIGHT THAT IF WE HAVE A DISASTER, THINGS WILL BE VERY TIGHT. CAN THE GOVERNMENT MAINTAIN DISCIPLINE? IF WE HAVE A DISASTER? HAS ANYONE LOOKED AT NEW ZEALAND IN THE LAST DECADE? WHAT I CAN TELL YOU FROM TAIRAWHITI, IF WE HAVE HEAVY RAIN, STATE HIGHWAY 35 IS CLOSED. STATE HIGHWAY 2 ALSO BECOMES UNDER PRESSURE. SHE SAID THAT SHE HAS PUT SOME ASIDE FOR EVENTS, BUT I DON'T THINK GOVERNMENTS, THIS GOVERNMENT AND THE LAST GOVERNMENT, UNDERSTAND THE LONGTAIL OF SOMETHING LIKE GABRIELLE, THAT IS STILL CURRENT ACROSS IKAROA-RAWHITI. THAT'S WHY DISCIPLINE IS IMPORTANT. IF WE HAVE SOMETHING LIKE THAT, THE CREDIBILITY OF THE NEW ZEALAND GOVERNMENT AND ITS CREDIT MAKES A DIFFERENCE. THE REASON THE LIZ TRUSS BUDGET WENT DOWN SO BADLY AS IT DESTROYED TRUST IN THE GOVERNMENT. IT IS IMPORTANT THAT A LID IS KEPT ON THINGS. YOU CAN'T DIVORCE THEM. DISCIPLINE COMES WITH THE ABILITY TO RESPOND TO A DISASTER. INTERESTING POINT IN THIS MORNING'S INTERVIEW. NICOLA WILLIS SAID THE GOVERNMENT WILL WORK VERY QUICKLY TO ADDRESS THE CANCER DRUG POLICY. MANY ADVOCATES, MANY PATIENTS HAD BEEN INSPECTING THEM TO FUND 13 NEW CANCER DRUGS, AS PER ELECTION POLICY. THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN. THE MINISTER ACKNOWLEDGES THERE WAS A COMMUNICATION GAP, TO PUT IT LIGHTLY. IT IS HARD TO COMMUNICATE, BECAUSE THAT FISCAL CLIFF IS REAL. AT COMES DOWN TO HOW THE COVID 19 FUNDING WAS ROLLED INTO THE PHARMAC PLAN. AND CREATED A SHORTFALL THAT WASN'T ANTICIPATED. THAT AS A CHUNK OF CHANGE. THIS IS SUCH A HIGH PROFILE POLICY, WHICH HAS AN EMOTIONAL ATTACHMENT FOR OBVIOUS REASONS. YOU WOULD HAVE THOUGHT, GIVEN THE PHYSICAL CONSTRAINTS, THAT WOULD BE AN ABSOLUTE PRIORITY FOR FUNDING. I THINK THE GOVERNMENT WAS CAUGHT UNAWARES BY HOW MUCH THAT WOULD RESONATE. THE PUBLIC, IN THE CONTEXT OF THE FINANCIAL SITUATION, WILL PROBABLY GIVE THE GOVERNMENT A PASS ON THIS FOR ONE YEAR. I THINK YOU HAVE ONE YEAR WHERE YOU CAN SAY IT IS A CLEANUP BUDGET. YEAR TWO, YOU CAN'T KEEP SAYING THAT. THE GOVERNMENT SHOULD HAVE BEEN CAUGHT UNAWARES. CHOICES HAVE BEEN MADE, CHOICES TO GIVE TAX CUTS OVER PHARMAC DRUGS. WHEN IT COMES TO HEALTH, FROM A MAORI PERSPECTIVE, IT IS THE HEALTH AUTHORITY, BECAUSE MAORI ARE STILL DYING SEVEN YEARS YOUNGER. TO HEAR THE MINISTER SAY THE SYSTEM HASN'T DELIVERED. YOU ARE SEEING SO MANY RISING, BECAUSE WE DON'T BELIEVE WHAT THE GOVERNMENT IS DOING IS TAKING COGNIZANCE DEVELOPMENTS FOR MARIE TO PUT UP THEIR HAND TO SAY THEY WANT TO BE PART OF THE SOLUTION. WE ARE CUT OUT OF ANYTHING. GOES TO THE HEART OF WHY OUR YOUNG PEOPLE ARE RALLYING TO SAY THIS IS NOT ON. IT IS DIFFERENT TO THE TAX ADJUSTMENT ISSUE. IT CANNOT BE RIGHT THAT PEOPLE ON MINIMUM WAGE ARE PAYING $0.30 EXTRA, THAT IS A MINIMUM AMOUNT YOU CAN PAY SOMEONE. JOINING THEM TOGETHER IS ARTIFICIAL. SOMEWHAT SAY THE PREVIOUS LABOUR GOVERNMENT MISSED AN OPPORTUNITY TO SURPRISE PEOPLE WITH ADJUSTMENTS. I WANT TO TALK ABOUT THURSDAY, THE TOITU TE TIRITI PROTESTS DREW THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE. WHERE THEY EFFECTIVE? ABSOLUTELY, BECAUSE THE PEOPLE THAT TURNED UP, LED BY YOUTH, PEOPLE WHO FEEL MARGINALISED, EVERYONE WAS WELCOME. THIS WAS ON THE BACK OF THE ONE IN DECEMBER. NORMALLY WE WAIT UNTIL ELECTION YEAR. THE FACT THEY ARE HAPPENING SO REGULARLY AS A SIGNAL WE ARE MAORIDOM STAND, IT IS LED BY OUR KOHANGA GENERATION. I RECKON IN 2026 YOU WILL GET A DIFFERENT VOTER TURNOUT. TE PATI MAORI IS ON A ROLL. THE DANGER FOR THEM IS THAT THEY HAVE BEEN TREATED WITH KID GLOVES BY THE MEDIA, AND IT HAS LED TO A TOLERANCE FOR OUTRAGEOUS STATEMENTS. BUT THOSE OUTRAGEOUS STATEMENTS GENERATE MEDIA. THE BIGGER PROBLEM IS LABOUR. LABOUR HAS TO BE ASSOCIATED WITH TE PATI MAORI AS PART OF ITS COALITION. AS THE MEDIA BECOMES MORE CRITICAL OF STATEMENTS, THE COMPARISONS OF GOVERNMENT POLICY TO GENOCIDE, THAT LABOUR WILL HAVE TO DEAL WITH THE ASSOCIATION OF THAT AS PART OF THE LEFT BLOC. MEKA IS STILL PART OF THE PARTY. YOU ARE A FORMER CABINET MINISTER. THAT BRINGS GRAVITAS, AND HOPEFULLY WILL BE A MODERATING INFLUENCE. JUST TO BE CLEAR, I AM NOT A SPOKESPERSON HERE. TE PATI MAORI HAS ISSUED A DECLARATION OF POLITICAL INDEPENDENCE. IT WANTS A SEPARATE PARLIAMENT. WHAT DOES THAT MEAN? IT IS NOT NEW, JACK. IF YOU GO BACK TO THE 1890S, HUI WHERE THE WHOLE NATION IN RESPONSE TO THE LAND LOSSES MAORIDOM WERE HAVING. WE ARE NOW IN 2024, AND THE CALL TO SAY IT IS TIME TO SAY WE PUT OUR HAND UP TO SEEK WHAT ARTICLE 2 SAID, SELF-DETERMINATION, IT IS NOT NEW, IT FLIES IN THE FACE OF WHAT WE SEE, THOSE INITIATIVES, MAORI HEALTH AUTHORITY, OUR COMMITMENT TO REO IN PUBLIC SPACES, THOSE ARE ALL BEING UNDERMINED BY THIS COALITION GOVERNMENT. YOU ARE AT THE SECOND HUI, AND YOU HAVE BEEN DISCUSSING THIS ULTIMATE PARLIAMENT CONCEPTION. IN PRACTICAL TERMS, WHAT WOULD IT INVOLVE? IT WILL BE A DIFFERENT APPROACH TO WHAT WE ARE ACCUSTOMED TO IN WESTERN GOVERNMENT. IT WILL BE CONSENSUS MAKING. IT WOULD BE A DIFFERENT ARRANGEMENT THAN WE HAVE BEEN ACCUSTOMED TO IN THIS COUNTRY, WHERE YOU WOULD OBVIOUSLY HAVE TRUST AND THOSE THAT REPRESENT YOU, BUT ALSO THERE WILL BE AN OBLIGATION ON THOSE THAT BELIEVE IN THAT MOVEMENT THAT YOU HAVE TO PLAY YOUR PART. IT IS A TWO-WAY STREET, IN MY UNDERSTANDING. AT THE MOMENT, IT IS JUST PUTTING IT OUT THERE IS A DIFFERENT ALTERNATIVE TO THIS WESTERN MODEL WE CURRENTLY HAVE, WHICH IS ADVERSARIAL, WHERE YOU ARE EITHER ON THE LEFT OR THE RIGHT. SOME OF MY BEST FRIENDS ARE ON THE RIGHT. LIAM IS BLUSHING. WE PLAY THE PERSON, NOT THE BOARD. IT IS ABOUT OUR NATIONHOOD. AS THE INDIGENOUS PEOPLE, WE HAVE SOME IDEAS. WE WANT TO PUT A HAND UP TO LEAD. ISN'T THIS TREASON, SEDITION? IT JUST ISN'T! NO MORE THAN KINGITANGA IS TREASON OR SOLUTION. THERE IS A TRADITION OF IT. THERE IS NO INCITEMENT TO REBELLION AGAINST THE GOVERNMENT OF NEW ZEALAND. IT IS AN ORGANIC ADVOCACY ORGAN OF GOVERNMENT, THE TYPE OF THING THAT IS A GENUINE EXPRESSION OF SELF-DETERMINATION WITHIN A LEGAL FRAMEWORK. THERE ARE LOTS OF THINGS I WILL HAPPILY CALL TE PATI MAORI OUT ON, ESPECIALLY THE ZANY STATEMENTS, BUT THERE IS AN OVERBLOWN REACTION TO WHAT IS A NORMAL DEVELOPMENT FOR INDIGENOUS PEOPLE. SO YOU KNOW, AS WELL AS WATCHING OUR SHOW ON TVNZ+, YOU CAN ALSO FIND ALL OF OUR INTERVIEWS ON YOUTUBE. JUST SEARCH 'NZQandA' AND WE'LL POP RIGHT UP. HEI AKUANEI ` Q+A IS BACK AFTER THE BREAK. KUA MUTU. THAT'S Q+A FOR THIS WEEK. FROM THE Q+A TEAM, THANKS FOR WATCHING AND NGA MIHI KI A KOUTOU I NGA KARERE. JUST SO YOU KNOW, WE'RE OFF AIR NEXT WEEK, BUT WE'RE BACK THE FOLLOWING SUNDAY. HEI TERA ` WE'LL SEE YOU THEN. CAPTIONS BY LENA ERAKOVICH AND JAMES BROWN. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. 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