CAPTIONS BY LENA ERAKOVICH AND KRISTIN WILLIAMS. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ COPYRIGHT ABLE 2024 TENA KOUTOU. NAU MAI, HAERE MAI. WELCOME TO Q+A. I'M JACK TAME. TODAY ` MORE QUESTIONS ABOUT MANUREWA MARAE AND THE 2023 ELECTION. SO, THAT'S RIGHT, WHANAU. IT'S ALL ABOUT VOTING. COME ON DOWN. PLACE YOUR VOTE. THEN ` WE SPEAK TO THE CHILDREN'S MINISTER AS SHE PUSHES AHEAD WITH A CONTROVERSIAL REPEAL. I WANT OUR SYSTEM TO ENSURE THAT EVERY CHILD IN THIS COUNTRY IS RAISED IN A LOVING AND STABLE HOME THAT SETS THEM UP TO SUCCEED FOR LIFE, REGARDLESS OF RACE OR CULTURE. THAT SETS THEM UP TO SUCCEED FOR LIFE, REGARDLESS OF RACE OR CULTURE. WE WILL HAVE THAT FOR YOU SHORTLY. AS WELL AS HAVING BEEN APPOINTED ATTORNEY GENERAL, JUDITH COLLINS HAS MORE MINISTERIAL PORTFOLIOS THAN ANYONE ELSE IN THE COALITION GOVERNMENT. AS DEFENCE MINISTER AND THE MINISTER RESPONSIBLE FOR THE SIS AND GCSB SERVICES, SHE'S AT THE FOREFRONT OF DECISIONS ABOUT NEW ZEALAND'S SECURITY AT A COMPLEX MOMENT IN TIME. KIA ORA, GOOD MORNING. GOOD MORNING. DURING SCRUTINY WEAK HEARINGS, THE FOREIGN MINISTER DESCRIBED NEW ZEALAND AS BEING UTTERLY UNPREPARED IN THE FACE OF GLOBAL DETERIORATING SECURITY. WHEN IT COMES TO DEFENCE, WE HAVE BEEN VERY MUCH LET DOWN, UNTIL RECENTLY, WE HAVE NOT BEEN AWARE OF HOW DETERIORATING THE SITUATION IS. YOU ARE PREPARING A DEFENCE CAPABILITY PLAN ` IS THIS WEEK'S PLANE BREAKDOWN LIKELY TO ALTER ANYTHING IN THE PLAN? IT IS PART OF HOW WE DEAL WITH IT, REMEMBER THAT THESE PLANES, THE 757 IS A MOST USED TO DO TRANSPORTS TROOPS AND EQUIPMENT, AND THEY GO TO ANTARCTICA, YOU CANNOT OPERATE ON ONE PLANE WHEN YOU ARE GOING TO AN ANTARCTIC SITUATION. I THINK EVERYONE REALISES THAT WE DO NEED TO HAVE PLANES THAT WORK. WILL YOU BE BRINGING FORWARD PURCHASES THAT MIGHT HAVE BEEN DELAYED FOR A COUPLE OF YEARS? THIS IS BIG MONEY, THEY MAY BE CHARTED, OR BOUGHT, LEASING AND CHARTERING SOUNDS EXCELLENT, UNTIL YOU REALISE THAT INSURANCE NORMALLY DOESN'T COVER PLACES LIKE PAPA NEW GUINEA IN TIME OF DIFFICULTY. WHAT IS THE STATE OF OUR FLEET? IT IS PRETTY DIRE. WE HAVE ONE OPERATING 757, THE OTHER IS A LONG-TERM MAINTENANCE, COMES OUT NEXT MONTH, WE HAVE ONE OPERATING HERCULES WHEN I SPOKE TO THE CHIEF OF THE DEFENCE FORCE, WE HAVE TWO IN MAINTENANCE, WE HAVE HOPEFULLY, AND HELPFULLY, FIVE NEW HERCULES STARTING AUGUST AND SEPTEMBER AND THEY WILL BE READY TO ROLL STRAIGHT AWAY BECAUSE OUR CREWS HAVE BEEN TRAINING ON THEM. SO THAT IS A GOOD THING, BUT TO BE FRANK, IT IS PRETTY TOUGH. SO JUST TO BE CLEAR, BETWEEN 2757 AND THREE HERCULES WE CURRENTLY HAVE FIVE IN OPERATION? YES, AND PLANES DO NOT GET BETTER WITH AGE. THE 757 WERE 10 YEARS OLD WHEN THEY WERE BOUGHT IN THE EARLY TO THOUSANDS AND THEY HAVE BEEN GREAT WITH COURSES, AND OUR TEAMS HAVE WORKED HARD TO KEEP THEM GOING, BUT WE ARE IN A DIFFICULT POSITION. THE P8S ARE VERY MUCH FOR SURVEILLANCE. IT'S KIND OF WOEFUL. IT'S PRETTY TOUGH. WE HAVE THE LAST ONE OF THE LARGEST EGG MONIG ZONES OF THE WORLD, WE WORK FOR PACIFIC COUNTRIES, AROUND ILLEGAL MOVEMENT OF PEOPLE, AND DRUGS, FISHING, AND THEY ARE ALSO USED FOR NORTH KOREA SANCTION WORK, SO OUR PEOPLE HAVE DONE EXTRAORDINARY WORK WITH VERY LITTLE KIT. THE NEW ZEALAND DEFENCE FORCE IS FACING A HUGE CHALLENGES ACROSS THE BOARD, ON THE 20 MONTHS LAST YEAR, NZDF LOST 30% OF ITS FULL-TIME UNIFORMED STAFF, HAVE THOSE ATTRITION RATES MEANINGFULLY IMPROVED? YES THEY HAVE, WHEN I READ THAT BRIEFING, IT WAS ONE OF THE MOST DEPRESSING ONES I HAVE READ, AND I HAVE HAD A BIT OF EXPERIENCE READING DEPRESSING BRIEFINGS COMING IN. WHAT WE HAVE SEEN IS A MASSIVE DECREASE, WE'RE DOWN TO ABOUT 9.7% ACROSS-THE-BOARD. THE ARMY WAS MOST HIT PREVIOUSLY, THAT IS COMING BACK INTO LINE, AND OUR UNIFORMED STAFF ARE STAYING AND WE HAVE GOT A LOT OF PEOPLE INTO JOINING/ I THINK PEOPLE CAN SEE WE ARE REALLY SERIOUS ABOUT DEFENCE, BUT ALSO THE COVID OPERATION, OPERATION PROTECTOR HOLLOWED OUT THE DEFENCE FORCE WITH PEOPLE SAYING THIS IS NOT WHAT I JOINED FOR. I THINK THE FACTORS ONCE PEOPLE LEAVE, THEY REALISE WHAT A GOOD EMPLOYER NZDF IS. YOU MAY NOT REALISE HOW GOOD THEY ARE COMPARED TO MANY OTHERS. NZDF WAS USING RETENTION PAYMENTS, DO YOU KNOW HOW MUCH HAS BEEN SPENT? I CAN'T GIVE YOU THE EXACT FIGURE, THEY DID HELP, IT MADE A SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCE TO PEOPLE GOING THROUGH THE COST OF LIVING CRISIS, AND IT SHOWED THEY VALUED PEOPLE. WE GOT AN EXTRA 160... $163 MILLION FOR REMUNERATION... I THINK ALL OF THOSE THINGS HELP, BUT PEOPLE DON'T ONLY WORK FOR THE MONEY, THEY ALSO WORKED FOR A PURPOSE. ARE THE RETENTION PAYMENTS CONTINUING? I CAN'T TELL YOU EXACTLY IS, BUT IT IS REALLY CLEAR AND I HAVE SAID TO THE SENIOR BRASS, THESE ARE FOR OUR PEOPLE WHO DON'T ALWAYS GET THE SAME BENEFITS AS THE TOP BRASS. WHY HAVE YOU HALVED STUDY GRANTS FOR THE DEFENCE FORCE? IT IS NORMALLY A PEOPLE AT THE VERY TOP ECHELONS OF THE DEFENCE FORCE ` WITH ME LOSING THE SERGEANTS, THE WARRANT OFFICERS, AND THE PEOPLE AT NCO LEVEL. THEY ARE NOT ALWAYS THE ONES WHO ARE BENEFITING FROM THESE BUT IT IS STILL VERY GENEROUS AND PEOPLE STILL CAN BENEFIT FROM THEM. BUT IT IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER THAT EVERYONE IS IN A TIGHT FISCAL SITUATION. PROPERTY BUILDINGS, WHARVES ` THERE IS MINIMAL LIFE LEFT IN THESE ASSETS, MANY PEOPLE ARE LIVING IN BUILDINGS AND DETERIORATING CONDITIONS. WHAT KIND OF INVESTMENT IS GOING TO BE NEEDED TO CORRECT THIS? SIGNIFICANT, BUT IT IS ALSO IMPORTANT TO RECOGNISE WE CAN USE PUBLIC-PRIVATE PARTNERSHIPS - WE ARE LOOKING INTO ALL THOSE OPTIONS, AND MY COLLEAGUE CHRIS PENK IS THE ONE WHO HAS THE ASSET SIDE, THE HOUSING ESTATE, HE IS LOOKING AT ALL THOSE OPTIONS, HE HAS A GOOD PLANS HE IS GOING TO BRING TO ME AND CABINET. WE'RE JUST WAITING THEM TO DO THAT. YOU CAN SEE WHY WHEN I READ THE BIM WIRE WAS A BIT SAD ABOUT THE STATE OF IT. BUT HAVING MET SO MANY OF THE PEOPLE IN DEFENCE, THEY GIVE ME SO MUCH HEART, I KNOW THEY CAN FIX A LOT OF THESE THINGS, BUT WE DO AS A GOVERNMENT NEED TO LOOK AT HOW WE CAN RECONFIGURE, DO THESE BETTER, AND HAVE BETTER OUTCOMES. THEY KNOW THEIR BUSINESS, LET THEM DO IT. LAST YEAR'S POLICY STRATEGY STATEMENT IDENTIFIED TWO KEY ISSUES DRIVING OUR DEFENCE POLICY- CLIMATE CHANGE AND DEFENCE IN THE PACIFIC. HOW GRAVE IS THAT GEO POLITICAL RISK? IT IS VERY GRAVE, WE JUST HAD A LOOK AT WHAT HAS HAPPENED IN UKRAINE, IN THE MIDDLE EAST, THE TENSION AROUND THE SOUTH CHINA SEA AND TAIWAN STRAITS, THINGS HAVE CHANGED AND WE SHOULD NEVER UNDERESTIMATE HAD TO SELL MUCH THEY HAVE CHANGED WHEN BLOOD TO BE PUT AND DECIDED HE WAS GOING TO ILLEGALLY INVADE UKRAINE AND IGNORE ALL OF THE RULES THAT WE TRY TO LIVE BY FOR MANY YEARS. THE SHANGRI-LA DIALOGUE IN SINGAPORE WITH MINISTERS OF DEFENCE ` WHAT WAS CLEAR TO ME, WHAT HAPPENS IN EUROPE IS ALSO APPLICABLE TO THE PACIFIC - WE HAVE A LOOK AT NORTH KOREA, THOSE VARIOUS TENSIONS, PUTIN WAS VISITING KIM JONG-UN JUST LAST WEEK. WE HAVE HAD THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN RUSSIA AND CHINA ` THAT CAN BE INTERESTING FOR US. DOES CHINA PRESENT THE GREATEST RISK TO DESTABILISATION IN OUR REGION? CHINA HAS BEEN A VERY GOOD FRIEND, BUT IT IS DEALING WITH OTHERS POSITION, IT WAS TO BE A MUCH GREATER POWER. IT IS AN INTERESTING CHALLENGE FOR US AND IT IS ONE THAT I HAD A VERY GOOD MEETING WITH MY DEFENCE COUNTERPART WITH IN SINGAPORE - WE HAVE A LONG-STANDING STRATEGIC MEETING THAT WE HAVE BETWEEN OUR DEFENCE FORCES, LET'S BE CERTAIN, THINGS ARE DIFFERENT. THAT DOES NOT ANSWER THE QUESTION, DOES CHINA PRESENT THE GREATEST RISK TO DESTABILISATION IN OUR REGION? IT IS A VAST COUNTRY WITH ENORMOUS POTENTIAL TO DO THAT BUT IT IS A COUNTRY THAT WE ARE FRIENDLY WITH, WE'RE CLOSE WITH, BUT WE HAVE VERY OPEN DISCUSSIONS WHEN WE ARE IN THOSE MEETINGS. THAT REPORT, ROOM RELEASE UNDER THE PREVIOUS GOVERNMENT, SAID THAT NEW ZEALAND SHOULD BE OPEN TO ENTERING AGREEMENTS LIKE PILLAR TWO? WHAT IS BEEN MISSING FROM THE DEBATE SO FAR? FACTS WOULD BE REALLY GOOD. THE ANTINUCLEAR ARGUMENT, THE DEBATE HAS PRIMARILY BEEN RUN FROM ONE SIDE WITH PEOPLE SAYING SOMETHING THAT IT IS NOT ` IT IS NOT A NUCLEAR AGREEMENT. BUT IT IS A SECURITY AGREEMENT. YES, AND WE SHOULD ALWAYS BE PART OF THESE AGREEMENTS WHEN THEY WORK IN NEW ZEALAND'S INTEREST. BUT WE HAVE BEEN PART OF FIVE EYES FOR 17 YEARS, WE DO A LOT OF WORK IN THE SOUTHEAST ASIA AREA, PART OF THE FIVE PILLARS AGREEMENT, WITH SINGAPORE AND MALAYSIA WE HAVE BEEN AROUND FOR A LONG TIME AND WE ARE NOT NON-ALIGNED. WHAT WE ARE SEEING NOW IS PEOPLE WHO WERE NON-ALIGNED SUDDENLY BECOMING PART OF NATO. WE HAVE PRIORITIES IN ALL MANNER OF AREAS ` IF SECURITY WAS OUR ONLY CONCERN, WOULD YOU ADVOCATE FOR NEW ZEALAND JOINING PILLAR TWO? YOUR CONCERN IS DEFENCE. I AM VERY AWARE THAT WE NEED BOTH FINANCIAL AND NATIONAL SECURITY. FOR ANYONE WHO SAYS YOU CAN HAVE ONE WITHOUT THE OTHER, YOU CANNOT. THAT HAS ASSISTED ME THAT YOUR CONCERN IS BY JOINING PILLAR TWO NEW ZEALAND WOULD RISK ITS ECONOMIC RELATIONSHIP WITH CHINA? ALL OF THOSE ASSERTIONS ARE MADE BY CABINET, AND WE ARE ONLY GOING TO JOIN IF WE CAN SEE A POINT FOR US, IF WE CAN ADD SOMETHING CREDIBLE, IF THE COST IS NOT SO DEBILITATING THAT WE CANNOT DO THAT. AND THAT IT IS IN NEW ZEALAND'S BEST INTEREST. WE CANNOT BE IN THE BOTTOM OF THE WORLD THINKING NOBODY NOTICES, WE ARE NOTICED. WE ARE ABSOLUTELY IN A PRIME POSITION THAT WE HAVE TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR A LARGE PART OF THE PACIFIC AND WE CAN'T DO IT WITHOUT DEFENCE. AS SOMEONE PRIVY TO THE HIGHEST SECURITY BRIEFINGS, HOW DO YOU ASSESS THE LIKELIHOOD OF A DIRECT CONFLICT WITH AMERICA AND CHINA? THERE IS A LESS POTENTIAL, AND I HOPE THAT THAT DOES NOT HAPPEN. WE HAVE SEEN TENSIONS AROUND THE PHILIPPINES, AND I WAS AT THE SPEECH WITH A PRIME MINISTER OR THE PRESIDENT OF THE PHILIPPINES GAVE A SPEECH WHERE HE TALKED ABOUT THESE ISSUES. IT IS SOMETHING WHERE PEOPLE NEED TO BE VERY CAREFUL, VERY MEASURED AND NOT RARK ANYTHING UP, BASICALLY. TO BE SENSIBLE. IF YOU LOOK AT WHAT RUSSIA DID IN UKRAINE AND HAS CONTINUED TO DO SO, IS THAT PEOPLE DO NEED TO BE ABLE TO BE PREPARED TO STAND UP FOR THEMSELVES AND DEMOCRACY. THE PROSECUTOR OF THE INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL COURT HAS SOUGHT AN ARREST WARRANT FOR BINYAMIN NETANYAHU. ISRAEL MAY HAVE COMMITTED WAR CRIMES IN GAZA, WHY ARE WE TRAINING ALONGSIDE THE IDF IN RIMPAC? WE HAVE BEEN PART OF THIS FOR YEARS, WE ARE ONE OF 29 OTHER COUNTRIES THERE. WE ARE TRAINING ALONGSIDE THE IDF. IT IS PART OF A U.S.-LED MILITARY OPERATION. THE CHIEF OF OUR DEFENCE FORCE SAID THAT THIS IS THE MOST SUPPORTED TRAINING OPERATION THAT WE ARE PART OF, WE'RE REALLY FORTUNATE TO BE PART OF THIS, WILL OUR PEOPLE GET TO BE WORKING WITH SUBMARINES AND SHIPS WE COULD NEVER AFFORD, TO DO THINGS, IT IS NOT OUR CALL AS TO WHO IS INVITED TO THAT, AND IF WE WERE TO SAY WE WOULD NOT GO BECAUSE ISRAEL IS THERE THE ONLY PEOPLE WE WOULD BE HURTING OUR OUR DEFENCE FORCE, AND I AM NOT PREPARED TO DO THAT. SO YOU ARE COMFORTABLE PUTTING OUR DEFENCE FOR STAFF ALONGSIDE PEOPLE FROM A MILITARY FACING THE GREATEST CONCERNS AS TO THEIR CONDUCT IN GAZA? WE ARE NOT IN CHARGE` YOU ARE IN CHARGE OF SAYING WHETHER OR NOT WE WILL GO. THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT MILITARY TRAINING OPERATION THAT WE GET TO BE PART OF EVERY TWO YEARS, OUR PEOPLES TRAINING IS MORE IMPORTANT TO ME, BECAUSE I AM THEIR MINISTER, AND I TAKE THEIR WELFARE MOST SERIOUSLY. THE PREVIOUS MINISTER FOR DEFENCE SAID THERE WAS LIKELY UTILITY FOR DRONES IN OUR DEFENCE FORCE? ABSOLUTELY, WE USE THEM NOW, THEY ARE GREAT FOR SURVEILLANCE WORK SHIPS, THEY ARE A VERY IMPORTANT PART OF SURVEILLANCE. WOULD YOU SUPPORT COMBAT DRONES? OBVIOUSLY, IF NEEDED, BUT YOU HAVE GOT TO REALISTIC ABOUT WHAT WE CAN DO - WE CERTAINLY DON'T HAVE FIGHTER PLANES LIKELY USED TO. WE DON'T REALLY HAVE ANY PLANES. WE HAVE A FEW, BUT WE HAVE MORE COMING, SO OF COURSE TRIES ARE A PART OF MODERN WARFARE AS UNFORTUNATELY, AS OUR TRENCHES AND EVERYTHING ELSE, AS YOU SEE WHAT HAS HAPPENED IN UKRAINE. I ACCEPT THAT SOME OF THESE FIGURES ARE DISPUTED ` DO WE SPEND ENOUGH ON DEFENCE COMPARED TO OTHER COUNTRIES? I WOULD SAY WE NEED TO BE PREPARED TO SPEND MORE TO GET A LOT MORE. WE CAN'T JUST SAY, LET'S JUST GO AND SPEND A LOT HERE, TEAM, AND DON'T WORRY ABOUT WHAT WE GET. WHAT IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER IS THAT ONE OF THE EASIEST WAY TO GET YOUR GDP UP IS TO TAG YOUR DEFENCE, WE CANNOT KEEP LIVING AND IS HAPPY LITTLE NAIVE WILL, THINKING WE ARE JUST FINE AND WE DON'T NEED TO DO ANYTHING, WE NEED TO BE PART OF CONTRIBUTING. WHY WOULD OTHER COUNTRIES COME AND HELP US IF WE DON'T HELP OURSELVES? THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR YOUR TIME. AFTER THE BREAK ` WE'RE BACK AT MANUREWA MARAE WITH NEW ALLEGATIONS AROUND CAMPAIGNING AHEAD OF LAST YEAR'S ELECTION. TAMAKI MAKAURAU WAS ONE OF THE CLOSEST ELECTORATES OF THE 2023 ELECTION, WITH JUST 42 VOTES BETWEEN LABOUR'S PEENI HENARE AND THE WINNER, TE PATI MAORI'S TAKUTAI KEMP. BUT NOW NEW ALLEGATIONS ARE EMERGING BUT NOW NEW QUESTIONS ARE EMERGING AROUND KEMP'S CAMPAIGN AND MANUREWA MARAE. WHENA OWEN REPORTS. SO, THAT'S RIGHT, WHANAU. IT'S ALL ABOUT VOTING ` COME ON DOWN, PLACE YOUR VOTE. MANUREWA MARAE IN THE WEEKS LEADING UP TO THE ELECTION ` AND THAT BRANDED VAN IN THE BACKGROUND IS PLAYING A PROMINENT PART IN TE PATI MAORI CANDIDATE TAKUTAI TARSH KEMP'S CAMPAIGN. I WANTED TO ASK YOU ABOUT THIS. I'VE SEEN THIS ` TE PATI MAORI HAVE USED A QR CODE. WHAT DO YOU DO? A FEW WEEKS OUT FROM THE ELECTION, Q+A WAS CHECKING OUT TE PATI MAORI'S STATE-OF-THE-ART MARKETING ON THE VAN AT THE MARAE. (SISTER SLEDGE'S 'HE'S THE GREATEST DANCER') IT WAS PART OF A PROFILE ON THE TAMAKI MAKAURAU CANDIDATES. AT THE TIME, TAKUTAI KEMP WAS THE CEO OF MANUREWA MARAE. THEY WANT TO SEE SOMEBODY WHO IS GOING TO ACTUALLY SUPPORT THEM, MANAAKI THEM, CARE FOR THEM, JUST LIKE WE HAVE HERE ON OUR MARAE. THE MARAE IS A REGISTERED CHARITY, AND CHARITIES ARE RESTRICTED IN WHAT POLITICAL ACTIVITIES THEY CAN ENGAGE IN. THAT MAY BE A PROBLEM FOR THE MANUREWA MARAE, AS THE BRANDED 12-SEATER VAN WAS, AND IS, REGISTERED TO THE MANUREWA MARAE TRUST BOARD. CHARITIES SERVICES HERE IN WELLINGTON, WHICH IS PART OF INTERNAL AFFAIRS, WOULDN'T APPEAR ON CAMERA, BUT TOLD US IN A STATEMENT, 'THE LAW IS CLEAR.' IT SAID: THIS ALL COMES UNDER SECTION 13 OF THE CHARITIES ACT, WHICH OUTLINES A CHARITY'S REQUIREMENT TO HAVE CHARITABLE PURPOSES. THIS ALL COMES UNDER SECTION 13 OF THE CHARITIES ACT, WHICH OUTLINES A CHARITY'S REQUIREMENT TO HAVE CHARITABLE PURPOSES. CASE LAW IS KEY, SAYS INTERNAL AFFAIRS. IN THE PAST, IT'S GONE TO COURT WITH GROUPS SEEKING CHARITY STATUS BUT DEEMED TOO POLITICALLY ALIGNED. FAMILY FIRST WAS DEREGISTERED; GREENPEACE FOUGHT AND WON TO KEEP ITS CHARITY STATUS. CURRENT MANUREWA MARAE CEO HILDA PETERS TOLD Q+A SHE'S BEEN ADVISED BY THEIR LEGAL COUNSEL NOT TO TALK TO MEDIA. THE MP FOR TAMAKI MAKAURAU, TAKUTAI KEMP, DID NOT RESPOND TO OUR EMAILS. CHARITIES SERVICES TOLD US WHILE IT'S CONSIDERING THE INFORMATION ON MANUREWA MARAE, THEY CAN'T SAY ANYTHING MORE BECAUSE IT'S SUBJECT TO THEIR REGULATORY PROCESSES. WHENA OWEN REPORTING THERE. IF YOU WANT TO CONTACT THE Q+A TEAM, PLEASE KORERO MAI. THESE ARE OUR MAIN PLATFORMS. HIT US UP ON EMAIL, TWITTER OR FACEBOOK. STAY WITH US. AFTER THE BREAK ` THE CHILDREN'S MINISTER KAREN CHHOUR ON HER PLANS FOR ORANGA TAMARIKI AND BOOT CAMPS FOR YOUNG OFFENDERS. CHILDREN'S MINISTER KAREN CHHOUR BRINGS PERSONAL EXPERIENCE TO THE ROLE. IN OPPOSITION, SHE SAW A PRIVATE MEMBER'S BILL TO REPEAL SECTION 7AA OF THE ORANGA TAMARIKI ACT VOTED OUT. BUT IN GOVERNMENT, DESPITE THE CONCERNS OF THE WAITANGI TRIBUNAL, SHE'S PUSHING AHEAD WITH THE REPEAL ALONGSIDE THE GOVERNMENT'S PLANS TO INTRODUCE SO-CALLED BOOT CAMPS FOR YOUNG OFFENDERS. CHILDREN'S MINISTER KAREN CHHOUR, KIA ORA. KIA ORA. MORE THAN TWO THIRDS OF CHILDREN IN CARE ARE MAORI. WHITE IS THAT? WHY IS THAT? THERE ARE MANY REASONS WHY CHILDREN END UP IN CARE. WE DO HAVE A HIGH LEVEL OF MAORI CHILDREN IN CARE. THAT IS DISAPPOINTING TO ME. THAT WAS THE SAME FOR ME WHEN I WAS GROWING UP WITH CHILD YOUTH AND FAMILY. I AM PASSIONATE THAT THIS CHANGES. LOWERING THOSE NUMBERS FOR MAORI CHILDREN BUT ALSO CHILDREN IN GENERAL. I WAS HEARING STORIES ABOUT THE UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES ABOUT 7AA AND HOW IT WASN'T NECESSARILY INTERPRETED IN THE WAY IT WAS INTENDED. THERE WAS A LOT OF POOR PRACTICE GOING ON IN THE ORGANISATION AROUND PLACEMENT OF MAORI CHILDREN AND ALSO HOW WE WERE DEALING WITH THEM IN CARE, WHICH LED TO MORE TRAUMATIC SITUATIONS FOR THEM THAN IS ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY. WE NEED TO SEND A CLEAR MESSAGE TO ALL OF THOSE WORKING WITH OUR YOUNG CHILDREN IS THAT THEIR BEST INTEREST AND SAFETY COMES FIRST AND CULTURE IS IMPORTANT AND WE COME FROM IS IMPORTANT. OUR IDENTITY MAKES US WHO WE ARE. BUT WE HAVE TO BE SAFE. ' IN ALL MATTERS RELATING TO THE ADMINISTRATION OR APPLICATION OF THIS ACT, THE WELL-being AND BEST INTEREST OF THE CHILD OR YOUNG PERSON OTHER FIRST AND PARAMOUNT CONSIDERATION.' WHAT YOU THINK THAT MEANS? EXACTLY WHAT I AM TRYING TO ACHIEVE TO MAKE SURE THAT SECTION 4A IS ABIDED BY. WE ARE THE TO KEEP OUR CHILDREN SAFE AND MAKE SURE THAT THEIR WELL-BEING AND INTERESTS ARE FIRST AND FOREMOST. I THINK CULTURE IS SO IMPORTANT. I REALLY DO. I HAVE UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT IT IS LIKE TO NOT KNOW WHERE YOU COME FROM, AND THAT CAN LEAVE A GET IN YOUR IDENTITY. SECTION 4A IS VERY CLEAR THAT THE INTERESTS OF THE CHILD ARE PARAMOUNT. THAT IS WHY I AM BRINGING THIS CONVERSATION BECAUSE THAT IS NOT WHAT HAS BEEN HAPPENING, AND THAT IS WHY A THE SELECT COMMITTEE PROCESS FOR 7AA IS SO IMPORTANT. PEOPLE CAN HAVE A VOICE. MANY PEOPLE OVER THE LAST FEW YEARS HAVE FELT THAT THEY HAVEN'T HAD A VOICE. WHAT EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE DO YOU HAVE THAT 7AA IS LEADING TO BAD OUTCOMES FOR CHILDREN? WE HAVE SEEN SOME PUBLIC CASES BUT ALSO AS I TRAVELLED AROUND THE COUNTRY AND BEFORE I BECAME AN MP, SEEING YOUNG PEOPLE SENT BACK TO THEIR ABUSERS FOR VISITATION BECAUSE CONNECTION WAS SEEN AS SO IMPORTANT. SEEING THAT TRAUMA IN THOSE YOUNG PEOPLE AND THAT THEY ARE BEING SENT BACK TO THE PEOPLE THAT HURT THEM, THAT IS NOT IN THEIR BEST INTERESTS. PEOPLE WOULD AGREE WITH THAT, BUT MY QUESTION WAS WHAT EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE TO YOU HAVE THAT 7AA IS LEADING TO BAD OUTCOMES? MOANA WAS ONE. SHE WAS REMOVED FROM A LOVING, SAFE ENVIRONMENT, ALL BASED ON RACE. THOSE DECISIONS FROM THEIR COURT CASE WERE MADE ON SENDING HER BACK TO HER CULTURE. THAT IS A ONE OFF EXAMPLE. MY QUESTION AGAIN IS WHAT EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE DO YOU HAVE? VIABLE, OBSERVABLE, CLEARLY ILLUSTRATING TRENDS RATHER THAN ONE OFF INSTANCES. WE HAVE HAD A COUPLE OF PUBLIC CASES RECENTLY. THAT IS NOT EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE. PEOPLE HAVE ALSO TOLD ME THAT THEY HAVE BEEN TOO SCARED TO SPEAK UP AND THAT IS WHY I THINK IT IS REALLY IMPORTANT THAT WE HAVE THIS CONSULTATION THROUGH PARLIAMENT THAT ALLOWS THESE PEOPLE TO HAVE A VOICE AND THEN WE WILL SEE THE EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE WHERE PEOPLE COME FORWARD AND ACTUALLY FEEL THAT THEY HAVE BEEN EMPOWERED TO HAVE A VOICE AND SAY WHAT THEY ARE SEEING. AND THE IMPACT STATEMENT REGARDING THIS APPEAL, THERE IS NO EVIDENCE THAT 7AA HAS DRIVEN PRACTICE DECISIONS THAT HAVE LED TO CHANGE IN CARE ENVIRONMENTS. DEPARTMENTAL EVIDENCE DEMONSTRATES THE PROBLEM MORE LIKELY STEMS FROM FLAWS IN THE PRACTICE OF INDIVIDUAL STAFF. THAT IS WHY IT IS REALLY IMPORTANT TO HAVE THIS DISCUSSION, AS I SAID TO YOU, TO SEND A CLEAR MESSAGE THAT THIS KIND OF DECISION-MAKING IS UNACCEPTABLE. 7AA HAS BEEN USED IN WAYS THAT I DON'T FEEL ARE APPROPRIATE FOR OUR YOUNG PEOPLE. IF IT MEANS MOVING FORWARD AND HAVING A FURTHER DISCUSSION ABOUT WHAT THIS CAN LOOK LIKE AND HAVING A LAW THAT CAN'T BE USED IN A DIFFERENT WAY. MAKING SURE THAT OUR INTENT IS VERY CLEAR FOR DECISION-MAKING AROUND MAORI CHILDREN. THEY DESERVE THE SAME LEVEL OF PROTECTION. WOULD YOU ACCEPT THAT THERE MIGHT BE ALTERNATIVES TO REPEALING 7AA THAT WOULD MAKE THAT INTENT REALLY CLEAR? I THINK AT THE MOMENT THIS CONVERSATION IS GOING THROUGH A SELECT COMMITTEE PROCESS. WE WILL HEAR SUBMISSIONS AND SEE SUBMISSIONS. THAT IS PART OF A GOOD-FAITH PROCESS. I LOOK FORWARD TO HEARING WHAT PEOPLE HAVE TO SAY THAT SELECT COMMITTEE PROCESS, AND I LOOK FORWARD TO HEARING THE VOICES FROM BOTH SIDES. WHILE SOME PRACTICE DECISIONS HAVE BEEN MADE THAT IN HINDSIGHT HAVE NOT RESULTED IN THE BEST OUTCOME OF THE CHILD, IT IS IMPORTANT TO REITERATE THAT THIS DID NOT RESULT FROM THE DUTIES OUTLINED IN 7AA. SECTIONS 4A, 5 AND 13 OF THE ACT COLLECTIVELY SIGNAL THAT WELL-BEING AND BEST INTEREST IS PARAMOUNT. DON'T YOU THINK IT IS TOTALLY CLEAR FOR STAFF AT ORANGA TAMARIKI THAT WELL-BEING COMES FIRST? ACTUALLY SOME OF THE CONVERSATIONS THAT I'VE HEARD AROUND THE COUNTRY, AND I HAVE MADE IT MY MISSION TO GET UP AND DOWN THE COUNTRY SPEAKING WITH PEOPLE FACE-TO-FACE ABOUT THEIR CONCERNS, ACTUALLY, SOME OF THE REACTIONS THAT I HAVE SEEN FROM SOME SOCIAL WORKERS TELLS ME THAT THEY DON'T SEE IT AS A PROBLEM, THEY DON'T SEE SOME OF THESE POOR DECISION-MAKING AS A PROBLEM. THEY SEE CULTURE SHOULD COME FIRST BECAUSE THAT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING WITH A YOUNG PERSON. AND I DISAGREE. I UNDERSTAND YOUR POINT, BUT AGAIN, THAT IS AN OPERATIONAL MATTER. IF WE GO BACK TO SECTION 4A, THE WELL-being AND BEST INTEREST OF THE CHILD COME FIRST. WELL, THAT IS NOT HAPPENING, AND I WANT TO MAKE SURE IT IS HAPPENING. AND THIS WILL SEND A CLEAR MESSAGE THAT IT SHOULD HAPPEN. THEY ARE ACTUALLY PRODUCING GREAT RESULTS. I AM HAVING CONVERSATIONS WITH SOME OF THE ORGANISATIONS AND HOW WE CAN RAMP UP WHAT THEY ARE DOING. THIS IS VITAL BECAUSE A BIG PART OF SECTION 7AA IS IT EFFECTIVELY DIRECTED ORANGA TAMARIKI TO FORM RELATIONSHIPS WITH IWI GROUPS. I HAVEN'T ASKED OUTRIGHT WHETHER THEY SUPPORT OR DON'T SUPPORT IT. WHAT THEY HAVE SPOKEN ABOUT 2 M THEIR CONCERNS. WHAT THEY WOULD LIKE TO SEE GOING FORWARD WITH THE PARTNERSHIPS IS THAT` I HAVE REASSURED THEM THAT THAT WILL HAPPEN IF IT'S IN THE BEST INTEREST OF THE CHILDREN. I'M ALSO OPEN TO MORE AGREEMENTS WORKING TOGETHER IN THE COMMUNITY. BUT THERE WILL BE NOTHING IN THE LAW IF YOU REMOVE 7AA THAT MAKES ORANGA TAMARIKI TO GO OUT AND MAKE THOSE RELATIONSHIPS. THEY DOESN'T HAVE TO BE A LAW FOR THAT TO HAPPEN. THESE WILL CONTINUE AND GROW IF THEY ARE IN THE BEST INTEREST OF OUR YOUNG PEOPLE. WHAT WILL HAPPEN TO THE WELL-being OF CHILDREN IF SECTION 7AA IS REPEALED? WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO SEE IS THAT WE HAVE LESS CHILDREN PUT THROUGH MORE TRAUMATIC SITUATIONS THAN NECESSARY. FOR WELL-BEING OF CHILDREN, I AM HOPING THAT OUR DECISION-MAKING IS STRONGER AROUND THEIR BEST INTERESTS AND IS SAFETY, AND I HOPE I AM NOT GOING TO OPEN A NEWSPAPER IN THE MORNING AND SEE THAT A YOUNG PERSON HAS PASSED AWAY BECAUSE THEY HAVE BEEN RETURNED TO A FAMILY THAT ISN'T NECESSARILY SAY FOR THEM, AND THEIR DECISION-MAKING WASN'T NECESSARILY THE RIGHT DECISION-MAKING FOR THEM. REPEALING SECTION 7AA IS UNLIKELY TO CONTRIBUTE TO IMPROVEMENTS IN SAFETY. A REPEAL OF 7AA MIGHT UNDO SOME OF THE ACCOUNTABILITY. THIS MAY WORSEN SAFETY. WHAT IS THE RISK THAT YOU ULTIMATELY END UP DOING MORE HARM TO OUR MOST VULNERABLE? I RESPECTFULLY DISAGREE WITH WHAT IS SAID THERE BECAUSE EVERYTHING I EXPECT OF ORANGA TAMARIKI IS AROUND THE BEST INTERESTS AND SAFETY OF OUR YOUNG PEOPLE, AND IF WE ARE DOING THAT, WE ARE DOING THE BEST FOR OUR YOUNG PEOPLE. TO SAY THAT THAT WOULD PUT CHILDREN IN MORE DANGER, I ABSOLUTELY DISAGREE. I HAVE STOOD IN FRONT OF MULTIPLE ORGANISATIONS, MULTIPLE IWI AND SAID THAT EVERYTHING HAVE TO BE AROUND OUR CHILDREN. THAT IS WHAT WE ARE HERE FOR. WE ARE NOT HERE FOR OURSELVES OR ORANGA TAMARIKI OR EVEN THE PARENTS OF THESE CHILDREN. WE ARE HERE TO MAKE SURE THAT THE YOUNG PEOPLE ARE SAFE AND THEN WORK ON EVERYTHING ELSE AFTERWARDS. WHY DO YOU THINK THE WAITANGI TRIBUNAL WANTED YOU TO FRONT? I DON'T KNOW WHY THEY WANTED TO MAKE THAT EXTRAORDINARY DECISION TO SUMMON ME IN FRONT OF THEM. WE HAVE HAD A PAST OF HAVING MUTUAL RESPECT FOR EACH OTHER. IT HAS GOT TO A POINT WHERE I THINK THE WAITANGI TRIBUNAL MIGHT HAVE BEEN POLITICISED MORE NOW THAN IN THE PAST. THERE IS A PROCESS NOW GOING ON AT THE MOMENT, AND YOU WILL UNDERSTAND THAT NEW ZEALAND FIRST AND NATIONAL HAVE AN AGREEMENT TO REVIEW THE WAITANGI TRIBUNAL. I THINK IT HAS DONE SOME GREAT THINGS IN THE PAST TO RIGHT PREVIOUS WRONGS. BUT THERE ARE OTHER THINGS I DON'T AGREE WITH. WE ARE ALWAYS GOING TO GET TO A POINT WHERE WE MAY NOT AGREE, BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY, THIS IS ABOUT THE CHILDREN. EVERYTHING I DO IS ABOUT THE CHILDREN. YOUNG SERIOUS OFFENDER CATEGORY FOR CHILDREN IN THEIR TEENS COMMITTING TO OR MORE OFFENCES WILL BE INTRODUCED. WHAT WILL BE THE POINT? THE POINT OF THAT IS THAT WE HAVE TO START LOOKING AT BETTER WAYS OF ACTUALLY SUPPORTING OUR YOUNG PEOPLE. I CAN'T ACTUALLY GO INTO TOO MUCH DETAIL. THERE IS AN ANNOUNCEMENT COMING OUT TODAY SPEAKING MORE TO WHAT THAT LOOKS LIKE. BY PUTTING THEM INTO THIS CATEGORY, THEY ARE GOING TO BE MORE SERIOUS CONSEQUENCES. THEY HAVE TO BE CONSEQUENCES FOR POOR BEHAVIOUR. THERE IS A LOT OF HARM GOING ON IN OUR COMMUNITIES AT THE MOMENT. THERE ARE A LOT OF BUSINESSES THAT ARE FED UP WITH THEIR BUSINESSES BEING RAM RAIDED, AND PEOPLE WITH THEIR CARS BEING STOLEN. AND A LOT OF THINGS GOING ON IN OUR COMMUNITY THAT MAY NOT NECESSARILY FEEL LIKE IT HAS A MAJOR IMPACT, BUT IT DOES. WE HAVE SHOPKEEPERS CLOSING THEIR DOORS BECAUSE THEY ARE NO LONGER INSURED BECAUSE OF RAM RAIDS. HOW IMPULSIVE I YOUNG PEOPLE? INCREDIBLY IMPULSIVE. HOW DOES DETERRENCE WORK FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE INCREDIBLY IMPULSIVE? WE HAVE TO TEACH YOUNG PEOPLE TO REGULATE THEIR EMOTIONS AND HOW TO DEAL WITH THEM. . YOU ARE TEACHING HIM BY PUTTING IN DETERRENCE THEY HAVE TO BE CONSEQUENCES FOR BEHAVIOUR. YOU CAN'T ALLOW YOUNG PEOPLE TO GO OUT AND DO WHATEVER THEY WANT. BUT YOU JUST SAID THEY ARE REALLY IMPULSIVE. HUMAN NATURE ` WE ARE IMPULSIVE BEINGS. THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT WE SHOULDN'T BE IN CONTROL ABOUT BEHAVIOUR. BUT IT'S NOT GOING TO WORK IF YOU SAID THAT THEY ARE IMPULSIVE. IT'S REALLY ABOUT YOUNG PEOPLE WHO HAVE COMMITTED MULTIPLE CRIMES. THE DETERRENT PART OF WHAT WE ARE WORKING ON IS WORK BEFORE THEY GET TO THAT STAGE BECAUSE NO ONE WANTS TO SEE A YOUNG PERSON LABELLED LIKE THAT. NOBODY. NOT EVEN MYSELF. BUT IF THIS IS WHAT WE HAVE TO DO TO ENABLE AN OPPORTUNITY TO WORK WITH THESE YOUNG PEOPLE IN A DIFFERENT WAY, THAT IS WHAT WE ARE GOING TO HAVE TO DO. THE DETERRENT IS THAT WE DON'T WANT THEM THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE. THERE IS ALSO WORK GOING ON IN THE BACKGROUND TO DEAL WITH YOUNG PEOPLE BEFORE THEY GET TO THE STAGE WITH A MEET THAT CRITERIA. DETERRENCE IS LIKE A MOTIVATION. IF THEY ARE IMPULSIVE, SURELY THAT WON'T WORK. ONE OF THE CONSEQUENCES IS POTENTIALLY THE CHILDREN OVER THE AGE OF 15 CAN GO TO MILITARY STYLE ACADEMIES. AS THE MINISTER RESPONSIBLE, HEAVY SEEN ANY EVIDENCE THAT THESE BOOT STYLE OPERATIONS ARE EFFECTIVE? WE HAVE LOOKED OVERSEAS AND LOOKED AT WHAT WE ALREADY DID IN NEW ZEALAND. THERE WAS THE MAC PROGRAM AND THE LSV. THERE IS A LOT OF EVIDENCE THAT SAYS WHILE THEY ARE ON THESE PROGRAMS THAT IT SHOWS SOME POSITIVE RESULTS. IT ALLOWS THESE YOUNG PEOPLE TO HAVE STABILITY, TO HAVE CERTAINTY ABOUT WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN ON A DAY-TO-DAY BASIS, BUT WE HAVEN'T DONE WELL IN THE PAST IS THAT RATHER THAN SENDING THEM BACK TO THE SAME ENVIRONMENT THAT THEY CAME FROM, WRAPAROUND AND GIVE SUPPORT AFTER THEY LEAVE. WHERE WILL THEY GO? I CAN'T TALK TOO MUCH ABOUT THAT. DO YOU KNOW WHERE THEY WILL GO? YES, WE HAVE PLANS IN PLACE. THAT IS SOMETHING WE WILL SPEAK TO SHORTLY. WHO WILL WORK THERE? THE ACADEMY IS AN IN RESIDENCE PROGRAM. IT WILL BE STAFFED WITH THE SUPPORT OF DEFENCE AND ORANGA TAMARIKI STAFF. THREE MONTHS? THIS IS FOR THE PILOT PROGRAMME. IT'S A 12 MONTH PROGRAMME. WHAT IS TO STOP CHILDREN WHO GO THROUGH THIS PROGRAM EXPERIENCING ABUSE IN CARE? I MEAN, THAT'S A BIT OF A LOADED QUESTION BECAUSE THE PURPOSE OF THE MILITARY ACADEMY IS NOT TO STOP ABUSE IN CARE. ITS PURPOSE IS TO SHOW THESE KIDS THEY ARE ACTUALLY WORTH PUTTING THE EFFORT INTO THEM. THAT'S THE PURPOSE, BUT THE ROYAL COMMISSION HAS SHOWN THAT SYSTEMATICALLY, THROUGHOUT VARIOUS CARE ARRANGEMENTS OVER DECADES IN NEW ZEALAND, CHILDREN WHO HAVE BEEN IN THE CARE OF THE STATE HAVE EXPERIENCED ABUSE. I AM WONDERING WHAT MECHANISMS WILL BE IN PLACE TO STOP THESE KIDS FROM EXPERIENCING SOMETHING SIMILAR. WE HAVE TO MAKE SURE THAT WE HAVE THE RIGHT PEOPLE IN THE FACILITIES. THAT IS SOMETHING I HAVE BEEN CONCENTRATING ON SINCE BECOMING MINISTER. SOME OF THE INITIATIVES IN THE PAST HAD REAL ISSUES. WE HAD SOME INSTANCES WHERE CHILDREN WERE CLIMBING UP ON THE ROOF AND PUTTING THEMSELVES INTO DANGEROUS SITUATIONS AND THE STAFFING HAS NOT BEEN UP TO SCRATCH. I SEE THAT THINGS ARE CHANGING. WE ARE BRINGING MORE PROFESSIONALISM IN. YOU ARE BRINGING IN DEFENCE STAFF. THAT WILL BE FOR THE MILITARY STYLE ACADEMY. BUT I'M TALKING IN GENERAL. MY QUESTION WAS ABOUT THE BOOT CAMPS. WE WILL BE USING A YOUTH JUSTICE FACILITY TO DO THAT. I NEED TO MAKE SURE THAT THAT FACILITY IS FIT FOR PURPOSE AND THE YOUNG PEOPLE ARE GOING TO BE PROTECTED FROM ANY HARM. THANK YOU. SO YOU KNOW, AS WELL AS WATCHING OUR SHOW ON TVNZ+, YOU CAN ALSO FIND ALL OF OUR INTERVIEWS ON YOUTUBE. JUST SEARCH NZQ+A, AND WE'LL POP RIGHT UP. AFTER THE BREAK ` AFTER YEARS OF PAINFUL TESTIMONIES AND EVIDENCE, THE ROYAL COMMISSION INTO ABUSE IN STATE CARE IS FINALLY REACHING AN END. SO WHAT HAPPENS NOW? FIVE AND A HALF YEARS SINCE THE TERMS WERE ANNOUNCED, THE ROYAL COMMISSION OF INQUIRY INTO ABUSE IN CARE WILL DELIVER ITS FINAL REPORT TO THE GOVERNOR GENERAL THIS WEEK. IT'S A MILESTONE FOR WHAT HAS BEEN AN ENORMOUS UNDERTAKING ` WITH APPROXIMATELY HALF A MILLION PEOPLE ABUSED WHILE IN THE CARE OF THE STATE, CHURCH, OR FAITH-BASED INSTITUTIONS. SO WHAT HAS IT ACHIEVED, AND WHAT WILL IT MEAN FOR THE SURVIVORS? KEITH WIFFIN GAVE EVIDENCE TO THE COMMISSION AND HAS ADVOCATED FOR OTHER SURVIVORS. SONJA COOPER IS A LAWYER REPRESENTING SEVERAL THOUSAND SURVIVORS. THANK YOU FOR BEING WITH US. THE REPORT IS DUE TO BE DELIVERED TO THE GOV GENERAL ON WEDNESDAY OF THIS WEEK. YOU HAVE BEEN INTIMATELY INVOLVED IN THE PROCESS. WHAT HAS THE PROCESS BEEN LIKE FOR YOU? FOR ME, IT HAS BEEN CHALLENGING AT TIMES, BUT VERY REWARDING AND GRATIFYING TO BE ABLE TO BE A PART OF THAT. I HAVE BEEN ATTACHED TO THE SURVIVOR ADVISORY GROUP AND ALONG WITH MY FIVE COLLEAGUES, I THINK WE HAVE MADE A DIFFERENCE. WE HAVE GIVEN A VOICE TO THE VOICELESS AND KEPT AT THE FOREFRONT OF THE COMMISSION's WORK THE INSPIRATIONS AND ASPIRATIONS OF SURVIVORS. AND I THINK WE HAVE MADE A BIG IMPACT IN TERMS OF WHAT THE FINAL REPORT WILL LOOK LIKE. WHAT HAS THE ROYAL COMMISSION EXPOSED ABOUT THE SCALE OF ABUSE IN NEW ZEALAND? IT HAS EXPOSED THE EXTENT OF ABUSE AND THAT IT HAS GONE RIGHT ACROSS ALL ASPECTS OF CARE. IT IS SOMETHING I STARTED WORKING ON A 1995 ` A VERY LONG TIME AGO. AT THAT STAGE, IT WAS A TRICKLE OF CLIENTS WHICH BECAME HUNDREDS IN THE 2000s. NOW WE HAVE ABOUT 2000 ACTIVE CLAIMS. I THINK WE HAVE SETTLED NEARLY 2500 CLAIMS ALREADY. WE ARE GETTING MORE THEN A NEW CLIENT INSTRUCTING US EVERY DAY. A LOT OF THE CLIENTS ARE NOW IN THEIR EARLY TO MID 20S. SOME SADLY ARE IN THEIR TEENS AND AGEING OUT OF CARE. FOR US, IT IS VERY PRESENT AND CERTAINLY NOT SOMETHING OF THE PAST. IT IS STILL VERY MUCH SOMETHING THAT IS HAPPENING NOW. I THINK SADLY IT WILL CONTINUE INTO THE FUTURE. WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE PROCESS AND HOW LONG IT HAS TAKEN TO GET TO THIS POINT, HAS THE ROYAL COMMISSION BEEN COMPREHENSIVE ENOUGH? I THINK IT HAS BEEN COMPREHENSIVE ENOUGH. IT JUST HASN'T BEEN LISTENED TO ENOUGH. SO RECOMMENDATIONS THAT HAVE BEEN PRODUCED, FOR EXAMPLE IN THE REDRESS REPORT IN 2021, HAVE NOT BEEN IMPLEMENTED. CHANGE THAT SHOULD HAVE ALREADY HAPPENED HASN'T. AND THAT IS THE FUNDAMENTALLY MOST DISAPPOINTING THING. SO SURVIVORS TODAY ARE STILL HAVING TO GO BACK TO THE SAME INADEQUATE PROCESSES OVERSEEN BY THE VERY ORGANISATIONS THAT PERPETRATED THE ABUSE. SO THERE ARE, VERY MUCH REQUIRED AT THE MOMENT IS AN INDEPENDENT PROCESS TO BE LAMENTED. TO TRY TO EXPEND THIS TO OUR VIEWERS, AN INTERIM REPORT CAME OUT IN DECEMBER 2021. THEN GOVERNMENT CAME OUT TO SAY THAT A AN INDEPENDENT REDRESS SYSTEM WOULD COME INTO ACTION. TWO MINISTERS WERE ASSIGNED TO DO SOMETHING VERY QUICKLY AFTER THAT WAS RELEASED. NOTHING HAPPENED. SURVIVORS SIT WHERE WE ARE RIGHT NOW WITH SUBSTANTIALLY NO REDRESS. SO WHAT THE GOVERNMENT DID DO VERY LATE IN THE PIECE IS BRING TOGETHER A GROUP OF SURVIVORS TO WORK ON HIGH-LEVEL DESIGN FOR AN INDEPENDENT REDRESS PROGRAMME. THEY CAME TOGETHER AND IN THE SPACE OF A FEW MONTHS CAME UP WITH SOMETHING VERY HIGH QUALITY. SHE AGREED THAT SOMETHING QUICKLY NEEDS TO BE DONE FOR SURVIVORS. WHAT THAT MEANS IS THAT THAT PROPOSAL SITS WITH GOVERNMENT WAITING TO BE LAMENTED. THAT IS THE THING THAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN. I THINK I ASKED HER WHAT DOES THAT REPORT ENTAIL OR DETAIL AND SHE DIDN'T GIVE US MUCH DETAIL AT THE TIME. CAN YOU EXPLAIN TO US WHAT A JUST REPEAL PROCESS MIGHT LOOK LIKE? THAT REPORT IS STILL SURROUNDED BY CONFIDENTIALITY, SO REALLY ALL I CAN SAY IS THAT IT DOES EXIST APART FROM, I WOULD SAY, IT IS FUNDAMENTALLY FAR, FAR GREATER IMPROVEMENT THEN WHAT EXISTS AT THE MOMENT. IT IS IMPORTANT TO POINT OUT THAT REDRESS IS NOT JUST FINANCIAL. CAN YOU TALK TO US A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THAT AND WHAT THE PROCESS MIGHT LOOK LIKE? REDRESS ACTUALLY NEEDS TO BE REHABILITATION AND COMPENSATION. THAT IS AN INTERNATIONAL OBLIGATION THAT WE HAVE. COMPENSATION AS ONE PART. I HAVE TO SAY THAT CERTAINLY FROM THE STATE PERSPECTIVE, COMPENSATION IN NEW ZEALAND HAS BEEN ABYSMAL. WE ARE STARTING AT SOMETHING LIKE $1500. I THINK SADLY NOW MOST WOULD PEAK OUT AT 20,000 OR 30,000. IT SHOULD BE CONSIDERABLY HIGHER THAN THAT WHEN WE THINK OF THE ECONOMIC LOSS THAT A SURVIVOR SUFFERS OVER THEIR LIFETIME, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT SOMETHING LIKE 600,000 TO $900,000 OVER THEIR LIFE. THE OTHER PART I THINK THAT IT IS IMPORTANT TO STRESS IS THAT SURVIVORS ARE TYPICALLY OUR MOST VULNERABLE, SO THEY WILL HAVE POOR HEALTH, POOR MENTAL HEALTH, ALCOHOL AND DRUG PROBLEMS, HOUSING ISSUES, POOR EDUCATION, THEIR FAMILIES WILL BE DISCONNECTED, THEY WILL BE MARKED BY THINGS LIKE TECH CHOOSE THAT MARK AND OSTRACISE THEM FROM SOCIETY PCI ` TATTOOS THERE ARE ALL TYPES OF SUPPORT THAT NEEDS TO BE ENCOMPASSED AND REDRESSED. ABSOLUTELY. MONETARY RESTITUTION IS BUT ONE ASPECT. WITHOUT THE SUPPORT THAT NEEDS TO COME WITH IT, IT CAN BE ALMOST MEANINGLESS. AND IMPORTANT PART OF IT TOO IS TO HEAR A NATIONAL APOLOGY. THAT PLAYS A BIG PART IN WELL-being AND BEING ABLE TO MOVE ON. WHEN MIGHT WE EXPECT THAT FROM THE GOVERNMENT? SOON I HOPE. IT IS SOMETHING THAT HAS BEEN SIGNALLED FOR A LONG TIME. BUT IT NEEDS TO BE THOUGHT ABOUT VERY CAREFULLY WHO DELIVERS THAT APOLOGY BECAUSE THAT WILL ALSO CARRY WEIGHT AS TO WHO DELIVERS THE APOLOGY. IT WILL NEED TO BE SOMEONE WITH SUFFICIENT MANA OR MAYBE MORE THAN ONE PERSON WHO ACTUALLY DELIVERS THAT APOLOGY. DO YOU HAVE THOUGHTS ON THAT? IT NEEDS TO BE MEANINGFUL. AND APOLOGIES ARE HOLLOW IF THEY DON'T COME WITH NECESSARY CHANGE. THAT'S WHAT WE NEEDED THE MOMENT. I KNOW THIS IS ONLY ONE PART OF REDRESS, BUT I NOTED NOTHING WAS EXPLICITLY SET ASIDE ANOTHER RECENT BUDGET FOR REDRESS. FOR TWO YEARS, THEY HAVE CONTINUED THE EXISTING PROCESS. THAT IS WHAT WE NOTED WITH CONCERN. PARTICULAR MINISTRY OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT WHICH HAS THE LARGEST GROUP, AND THE MINISTRY OF EDUCATION, THEY ARE TRYING TO SETTLE AS MANY CLAIMS AS THEY POSSIBLY CAN THROUGH A RAPID PAYMENT PROCESS. AND THEY ARE FULL AND FINAL SETTLEMENT, RIGHT? RIGHT. IN MY VIEW IS THAT IS THAT IT IS TO LIMIT THE GOVERNMENT's RESPONSIBILITY SO THAT THEY CAN GO HAND ON HEART LATER AND SAY THERE IS NOT ACTUALLY ANY NEED FOR A REDRESS PROCESS BECAUSE WE HAVE LIMITED YOUR LIABILITY BY HAVING ALL OF THESE SURVIVORS SIGN UP TO FULL AND FINAL SETTLEMENTS. THAT IS EXACT LEEWAY WE ARE LITIGATING CHALLENGING THE RAPID PAYMENT PROCESS AND PARTICULARLY CHALLENGING THE FULL AND FINAL SETTLEMENT. THAT IS NOT WITH THE PREVIOUS GOVERNMENT SIGNED FOR AND IT IS CERTAINLY INCONSISTENT WITH WHAT THE ROYAL COMMISSION RECOMMENDED. THIS WAS SUPPOSED TO BE A FORWARD, ADVANCE PAYMENT. NOT IT. NOT THE FINAL. IT WAS NEVER INTENDED THAT THIS WILL BE SOMETHING TO DEAL WITH SUBSTANTIAL CLAIMS BY THE PREVIOUS GOVERNMENT. IT WAS FOR THOSE WHO WERE ELDERLY OR IN ILL-health. IT IS BASED ON THE SCOTTISH SYSTEM WHICH IS CALLED ADVANCED PAYMENT. IT IS AN ABSOLUTE EXAMPLE OF WHY WE NEED AN INDEPENDENT PROCESS. WE SPOKE TO THE CHILD'S MINISTER RECENTLY. WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT THIS GOVERNMENT'S APPROACH TO CHILDREN IN STATE CARE? I AM TRYING TO BE OPTIMISTIC AFTER I SAW YOUR INTERVIEW WITH ERICA STANFORD. SHE IMPRESSED ME. I WAS ENCOURAGED BY HER WORDS. SHE HAD COMPASSION. SHE HONOURED THOSE WHO CAME UP WITH THE NEW PROCESS. BUT AFTER LISTENING TO KAREN TODAY, NOT SO. 7AA IS THEREFORE VERY GOOD REASON. SHE RIGHTLY SAID THAT MAORI CHILDREN DESERVE DECENT CARE. THAT IS WHY 7AA IS THERE. THE WEEK OF THE 22ND IS WHEN IT WILL BE TABLE. AT THAT POINT, WE ARE EXPECTING A GOVERNMENT RESPONSE. IS THAT RIGHT? WE HOPE SO. IT WILL BE SLOW. WE WILL PROBABLY GET A DATE FOR THE TABLING NEXT WEEK. I WOULD HOPE SO. SURVIVORS, ESPECIALLY IN MY ERA, ARE DYING. THEY HAVE WAITED FAR, FAR TOO LONG FOR A REDRESS. WE NEED TO DO THAT TO BE ABLE TO MOVE ON AND FOCUS ON THE TERRIBLE RATES OF ABUSE THAT ARE STILL HAPPENING NOW. THIS IS NOT JUST HISTORICAL; IT'S CONTEMPORARY. THEY DON'T SIT IN ISOLATION TO EACH OTHER. THE CARE SYSTEM TODAY IS BROKEN. IT NEEDS URGENT TRANSFORMATION. THAT MUST HAPPEN, ALONG WITH, AS KAREN DID ALLUDE TO, KEEPING ARYANG OUT OF CARE IN THE FIRST PLACE. THE BEST WAY TO STOP ABUSE IN CARE IS TO KEEP THEM OUT OF THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE. FOR THE MAJORITY OF THOSE WHO HAVE GONE INTO CARE, THEY HAVE LEFT WORSE THAN WHEN THEY ARRIVED. THAT MEANS RESOURCING COMMUNITIES TO LOOK AFTER THEIR OWN. KUA MUTU. THAT'S Q+A FOR THIS WEEK. FROM THE Q+A TEAM, THANKS FOR WATCHING AND NGA MIHI KI A KOUTOU I NGA KARERE. WE ARE OFF NEXT WEEKEND FOR MATARIKI, BUT WE'LL SEE YOU ON SUNDAY IN A FORTNIGHT. KIA PAI TE RANGI NEI. CAPTIONS BY LENA ERAKOVICH AND KRISTIN WILLIAMS. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ COPYRIGHT ABLE 2024