CNN Live Event / Special Aired June 27, 2024 - 15:00 ET THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED. [15:00:34] JIM SCIUTTO, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: Welcome to STATE OF THE RACE on CNN. I'm Jim Sciutto. It is game day. In CNN headquarters in Atlanta, you were looking at live pictures of where just a few hours, President Joe Biden and former President Donald Trump will meet for the first 2024 presidential debate. It is historic, the earliest in modern election history, the only faceoff between two candidates who have each taken the oath of office prior, both say the stakes are high. And look at this, it is as close race as ever. CNN's poll of polls shows Biden and Trump in a statistical dead heat. Millions of voters will tune in and there was no question that tonight could fundamentally alter the course of this race. So which voters are we watching tonight and where could this debate matters? CNN senior data reporter Henry Enten takes it all down for us. (CROSSTALK) SCIUTTO: Harry -- HARRY ENTEN, CNN SENIOR DATA REPORTER: Thanks. SCIUTTO: -- so more than 70 million Americans, they tune in for the first Trump Biden debate four years ago. Who are the voters you're watching most closely to see how they might react tonight? ENTEN: Yeah, we'll take it in two ways. We will take it nationally and then well go down at the state level. So we'll start nationally. And what you need to know about this race, when you include the third party options, there are a ton of folks at this particular time who say that they are in fact either undecided or say that they're going third party. We're talking nearly 20 percent of the electorate at this particular point. Look at this 19 percent heading into this first debate. That is far higher than the historical average when it's just 11 percent. So there are far more voters who are up for grabs at this particular point then in the average cycle, and not just in the average cycle, Jim, I'm saying that this is the highest share going into the first debate on record. Now, part of that is because we have such an early debates, so its not surprising that there are so many folks who are undecided, but nonetheless, it is notable that there are a lot of folks who need convincing on either Joe Biden or Donald Trump at this time. Now, we look did it nationally. What about the swing states? Because that's ultimately where this election is going to be decided, right? So what are the three swing states that were watching? How about the Great Lakes battleground states? Why are we watching these three states in your screen? We're watching them because if Joe Biden wins all of them, he's likely to be the next president. If Donald Trump can win just one of them, he's likely to be the next president. Look how tight these polls are at this point. Pennsylvania, which has the widest margin, is just Trump plus two. That's within any margin of error. That is what we would call no clear leader. Michigan, tied, Wisconsin, tied. So when we look at these polls, we realize how important tonight's debate is because the racist so close that even if it just moves it just a smidgen, a smidgen, that could be enough in these important battleground states in the Great Lakes that it can change the entire dynamic of the race. And one in which I think a lot of people so far have felt that Joe Biden is probably behind Donald Trump. It could very well be after tonight's debate performance if Joe Biden does well, he could be ahead of Donald Trump. Of course, if he doesn't do well -- SCIUTTO: Right. ENTEN: -- and Donald Trump's does well, well, then I think there might be plenty more calls for Joe Biden to get out of the race. Of course, that's probably not kind of happen, but those calls may come nonetheless. SCIUTTO: Yeah, that big number is undecided, that's notable. That shows that folks watching tonight, you know, they could decide after tonight, we'll see. So tell us what to the polls, tell us about what specific particular weaknesses each candidate is facing heading into tonight? ENTEN: Yeah, what can they do? What can they do to improve their standing? What do they need to fix in the voters minds? Well, it's different for Joe Biden than it is for Donald Trump. For Joe Biden, it's pretty simple. It's the age factor. Voters have consistently said in the polls that they see him as to a -- look at that -- 68 percent of likely voters and recent "New York Times"/Siena College poll that came out yesterday said that Joe Biden was too old. That has been consistent throughout this campaign. If he can come out tonight, be energetic, remind folks, hey, I can go another four years, that could go a long way in helping his candidacy. For Donald Trump, despite the fact that he's only slightly younger than Joe Biden, age hasn't really been an issue, but temperament has been the major issue for him, a majority of voters say that he does not have the right temperament to be president, 54 percent in that poll. [15:05:04] It's going to be very interesting to see. Do we get the Donald Trump from four years ago is interrupting constantly, or dare I say a more presidential Donald Trump? Of course, I'm not sure that adjective has truly ever been used to describe the former president, Jim. SCIUTTO: Fair point. Harry Enten, thanks so much. ENTEN: Thank you. SCIUTTO: Joining me now, two men who know the debate arena well, Lanhee Chen, a veteran of Mitt Romney's presidential campaign, and Chuck Rocha, who advised both the Bernie Sanders White House bids. Gentlemen, good to have you both on. I particularly like the hat you're wearing tonight, Chuck. Chuck -- so, Chuck, I'll begin so with you. You worked on and were here for the March 2020 Biden-Sanders debate. That was in a CNN studio with no live audience. Different kind of environment, right? And then when you have a live audience present. How do you prepare for that kind of audience? And I wonder what advice you would give to both candidates going in? CHUCK ROCHA, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: You have to trust the plan. There's a reason why you do prep and also you can see that there's a difference in the way that these two candidates do prep. There's also difference in the ways that different candidate you deal with, deal with prep. Like Bernie did not like a lot of prep. Bernie has so much -- so many things in his head and he has to memorize that he don't have to write down a lot of things. But you have to be prepared to not have to feed off the audience. Just like Donald Trump, Bernie feed off of audiences. He loved the back- and-forth with audiences, and he would say the same things, expecting certain things back. So there's a way that you have to mentally know that you have to stick to the plan of what you're going to say before you ever walk in that room about whatever that issue said that you're asked about, and when you talk about somebody like President Biden, he's probably working on one liners that he hopes you in the press and everybody else picks up that he says to Donald Trump about each one of these things that he wants to hit own tonight. But Donald Trump is the one who will be the most affected by not having an audience there. Joe Biden is used to giving speeches on the Senate floor where there's nobody except a bunch of other old senators, but Donald Trump is definitely used to feeding off of a crowd. SCIUTTO: Lanhee, I wonder if you agree with that, that missing that crowd will be a bigger disadvantage for Trump who thrives in the rally environment, than for a Joe Biden? LANHEE CHEN, FORMER MITT ROMNEY POLICY DIRECTOR: Well, look, I think there's no question that former president Trump likes to feed off the energy of the crowds. He speaks to and that's certainly a strong suit for him. I think the challenge for Joe Biden going into this is as an incumbent president, you've seen this over and over again. You mentioned was, I was deeply both and preparing Mitt Romney in 2012, when he had that first debate against Barack Obama, Barack Obama came out in that first debate in 2012, flat, even though he was well-prepared, it's very difficult for an incumbent president to be put into this situation where they're being questioned and poked and prodded in this way -- yes. I mean, they get it from the media. Yes. Of course, they get it on the campaign trail every day. But it's a little bit different in a debate setting. And so, it can be a challenge in this first debate for an incumbent president, you know, who's used to the trappings of the office, used to having a lot of people say yes. It's very, very difficult to then put them from that situation into the debates situation. So we'll see how Joe Biden responds and reacts. He's obviously a seasoned pro. He's done lots of debates so well have to see, but I have no doubt that for the Biden team, they are aware of this first debate letdown dynamic, and have prepared him and warned him going into tonight's debate. SCIUTTO: It's a live picture of Air Force One arriving in Atlanta, carrying President Biden in advance of the debate tonight. So let's talk about perceived weaknesses for both candidates heading into this debate. Chuck, if I could begin with you, clearly the weakness four Biden is age. You saw the poll we showed just prior, 69 percent of voters think Biden is too old, smaller percentage, 39 percent say the same about Trump, despite the closest to their age those are the facts as you see them. So, Chuck, how does Biden approach that issue tonight? ROCHA: Through memorization, like he got to memorize and he'\s been working, that's why he's been at Camp David all week. I keep going back to that. Like you -- it's just like when you practice football, if you practice a golf swing or if you practice fishing, whatever your thing is, if you practice it, you get better at it. And that's why he's taken the whole week. He's not taking it for granted. And I think that its a really important point that were making here about it is harder when you are the incumbent, but making sure that you've memorized this too, because the thing that is the worst is because of his age and because of the perception of his age and all of the things that go with that, you don't want to not remember something that's very easily remembered. SCIUTTO: Yeah. ROCHA: Remember the time that the former Texas governor couldn't remember the three departments that he wanted to get rid of, and that was the headline, you don't want that to be the headline the next day. SCIUTTO: I was just thinking about right now and I mean, a lot of folks thought that that killed his campaign at the time. Okay. Lanhee, Trump's weakness and again, we saw that the data as Harry Enten was presenting it is temperament, how does Trump approach that? [15:10:01] And can he in your view -- we know that Trump tends to be Trump, right, in public forums like this. Can he correct that? CHEN: Yeah. It is a little bit of a catch-22, right? On the one hand, what makes Trump effective is the energy is the freneticness and he could try and almost give him a sedative, or behave as though he's had a sedative. That maybe not -- not the way to convey the authentic Trump, right? Look, my counsel would be and I haven't been involved in his prep at all, but my counsel would be go to the issues. This is where in the polling, you've got strength. This is where when you ask the public, listen, who's going to do a better job of managing cost of living issues, the economy, certainly immigration. To the degree that Trump can stick to talking about what its plans are for those things, I think he'll be on good ground and that naturally, I think will address some of the temperament issues and some of the temperament concerns that we've seen because I think what he's talking about issues, talking about plans, he's not getting into personal grievance. He's not getting into the things that, frankly, I think would raise those temperament concerns. SCIUTTO: I will say I've heard that advice literally you for years regarding Trump and I've often I think a lot of seen him not heed that advice. Again, live pictures from Atlanta here, Air Force One, arriving there and advance of the debate. Shortly, we'll see the president come down those stairs as were still a few hours away from the debate. There are 2, 3-minute commercial breaks tonight. Both of the candidates expected to launch ads during those times. Here is one of Trump's targeting Biden and his age. Have a listen. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) AD NARRATOR: When you think about the Joe Biden you saw on the debate. Ask yourself a question: Do you think the guy who was defeated by the stairs, got taken down by his bike, lost a fight with his jacket and regularly gets lost, makes it four more years in the White House? And you know who's waiting behind him, right? (END VIDEO CLIP) SCIUTTO: Wow, that's -- it's a rough one, Lanhee Chen. Is that -- is that a good, strong, meaningful, effective message for the former president? CHEN: I mean, I think -- I think it's the message that they believe is the strongest. I didn't see the visuals. I can only imagine what the visuals looked like. And it's interesting going to this issue of the Kamala Harris potential presidency, that is an interesting angle, that while it's been talked about and conservative media, it's been talked about behind the scenes, you know, really kind of breaking it open and saying, look, this is the issue. That'll be interesting. They shouldn't see how that plays because that is certainly the elephant in the room in my mind, that hasn't gotten a lot of discussion. That ad will clearly jump start that conversation. SCIUTTO: Hey, listen, it's a -- it's a legitimate one to ask the question, who the vice president is? As you, as folks have that concern about his age, again zeroing in there on the stairs of Air Force One as we wait for President Biden. As we do, Chuck Rocha, we don't know what ad Biden is going to run. It is our understanding of the topic will be abortion, highlighting Trump's position on abortion, abortion, of course, his appointing of the two Supreme Court justices who overturned Roe v. Wade, is that the right message for Biden in an ad, but I'm certain as well during the debate for the president to be highlighting. ROCHA: Yes, yes, and yes. The reason why that first ad you showed is ineffective -- look, I'm one of those weirdoes on TV who still running campaigns actively every day. So I get to see polls and do focus groups. And what that means is I'll promise you people will that add moves them, the old man fallen down the stairs, all that stuff, those folks have already made up their mind. I see it in focus groups after focus group. The folks that are in the middle who are truly undecided want to hear about the issues that are going to make them different. They're willing, some of them, to hold their nose and vote for Donald Trump if he can tell them what he's going to do to make their life better, and he has an opportunity to do that. Joe Biden is going to remind them what he has done to make their life better. And I think a lot of that has to do with the ad that he's going to run to show that there's something that because of Donald Trump, you have lost, mainly women. You've lost this right to control your own body and I promise you, that's the thing that's moving people because as see that in poll after poll, and we just had an election about it, a year-and-a-half ago so were Democrats over-performed Republicans because of this issue. SCIUTTO: Yeah. I mean, if temperament is the criticism that voters say in the polls about Trump is that ad, does it have the kind of attitude they're looking for? I suppose well see again, live pictures from Atlanta and there is precedent Biden emerging from air force one down the steps there, as he prepares, picked up by the White House limo there, "The Beast" as its known to be taken just a few hours to the site of the CNN presidential debate, which, of course, it will be live as you can see there at 9:00 p.m. tonight. [15:15:01] Lanhee Chen, Chuck Rocha, it's good to have both you here today. We welcome you back afterwards. We'll get your thoughts on whether he hit all the marks you said, whether both of them hit all the marks you say Biden Trump need to hit. Thanks so much for joining. CHEN: Thanks, Jim. SCIUTTO: And it is tonight, CNN presidential debate moderated by my colleagues Dana Bash and Jake Tapper. Joe Biden versus Trump head-to- head, 9:00 p.m. Eastern Time, right here on CNN. After the break, we're going to check in -- (COMMERCIAL BREAK) SCIUTTO: Welcome back. You are looking at live pictures from Atlanta on the tarmac there where Air Force One has just landed just a few moments ago, President Biden there greeted, about to hop in the limousine there, head into town, and just a few hours, he's going to walk on stage for that debate with Trump. Trump for his part is expected to arrive in Georgia in about two hours. So how are both candidates spending these final hours before they step on stage? CNN's Kristen Holmes and MJ Lee are here to take us behind the scenes. MJ, if we could begin with you, how is the Biden campaign feeling after spending what -- what's been a week several days of intensive debate prep, at Camp David? MJ LEE, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, Jim. Today has felt a little bit like the calm before the storm, you know, when we saw President Biden getting on and off Air Force One, that was the first hi that we were seeing him in public in about a week, as you say it said because he has been hunkered down at Camp David this entire time for debate preparations. And, you know, over the last week we really been reporting out the details of what exactly has been going on at Camp David, you know, including every detail about who has been playing, who at their mock debates, issues that they have really been preparing for, how the Biden team has been watching the Trump team and everything that they have been saying and public. And we have really tried to capture what the Biden team believes are the stakes heading into tonight. [15:20:05] And it's clear that their team's ethos has really been leave nothing to chance. You know, they have prepared for every issue that could potentially come up on the debate stage tonight, both here at home and issues that are more foreign policy and issues related to events going on abroad, but also the Biden team has clearly been trying to anticipate every version of Donald Trump that could also has also show up tonight. That includes a Donald Trump that is more unhinged, like he was at that first debate back in 2020 between the two presidents, but also just the possibility that the former president could be a lot more disciplined, a lot more on message, and a version of the Donald Trump that could be throwing personal attacks and insults the president's way, but also those that are directed at members of the president's family as well. And I think what it all comes down to is that the Biden team believes the tonight is their best opportunity, their best chance to speak to as many voters this is possible and make the case that what the Biden team believes is that there is a binary choice heading into November, and that they believe that he is the only acceptable choice of those two choices. SCIUTTO: Kristen, we did see Trump posting on Truth Social that Biden is a threat to democracy. I just wonder, how does his team hope to make that argument tonight given Trump's well-documented attempts to overturn the last election? KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Jim, he starts to make that argument all the time. That's what he is saying when he says that Biden-controlled justice system is after him. These are obviously the claims of his victimhood that we have heard not really just since he faced all these legal troubles, but really for the last decade. That's how Donald Trump operates, that he's the victim of multiple scenarios and that's how he ended up in this position. So when it comes to how he's going to say that Biden is the actual threat to democracy. That is what he's going to focus on as his legal issues and saying it stemmed from President Joe Biden, which obviously there's absolutely really no evidence of. And, of course, the case in New York was brought by the state of New York, not by Joe Biden's Justice Department or the Justice Department. When we talk about what they are going to talk about, that's not a reaction just to him trying to make this case. It's a reaction to the fact that part of his preparation is watching very closely what is coming out of Camp David. And some of the reporting that we have seen is that Joe Biden plans to focus on democracy, plans to focus on January 6, and Donald Trump's role in January, and also his rhetoric since January 6. So, that is a very clear reaction to that. One thing Donald Trump spent the day doing is watching the lead up to the debate. The coverage on various networks, seeing what people are saying is coming out of Camp David, Donald Trump is a reactive person. And one of the things I do want to know your, we have said over and over again, the Donald Trump's team does use the word preparation with them, that they don't have these traditional mock debates, that does not mean that Donald Trump has not had extensive preparation. They know how critical this moment is, and I am told some sources close to Donald Trump that he is aware of how critical this is. Now, whether or not he can do, which is to stay on message, to not only dive in to these personal attacks, to focus on things like the economy and inflation, integration as well as crime, things that he polls higher than Joe Biden on to look at recent numbers, we don't know what version of Donald Trump is actually going to show up on the stage. And these various conversations with senior advisers, they will acknowledge that as well. The hope is though, particularly given the fact that Donald Trump is going to have the last word determined by a coin flip, is that no matter what happens today, he could end on a solid message of focusing on those core issues. They don't really want, and this is Donald Trump as well, to talk about democracy, they don't want to talk about things like abortion, but they know that these are inevitable questions, and that is one of the things they had been preparing for, not just how to answer it, but also had a pivot back to those four issues like inflation question that they believe helped Donald Trump. SCIUTTO: Kristen Holmes, MJ Lee, thanks for the views inside the campaign. Back here in Washington, 24 hours after a draft of the ruling was inadvertently posted to its website, the U.S. Supreme Court formally dismissed an appeal over Idaho's strict abortion ban. Up next, what that means for the law now and those seeking abortions in the state. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) [15:27:51] SCIUTTO: Welcome back. Abortion certainly a crucial issue in this election will certainly be a topic of discussion in tonight's debate. Earlier today, the Supreme Court officially ruled on Idaho's restrictive abortion law after a draft of that highly anticipated case was inadvertently posted online by the court itself yesterday. The 6-3 decision allows emergency abortions in Idaho for now to be clear, as the case continues in lower courts. The court also so rejected a controversial multibillion-dollar settlement agreement involving Purdue Pharma. With six more cases yet to be released, the court will not finish before the end of June, as is usual. Opinions now, the court announced, could also be released on Monday. CNN's justice correspondent Jessica Schneider joins me now. So, Jessica, anti-abortion groups are calling this ruling a procedural hiccup. Those in favor of abortion rights are not calling this a win. I mean, effective -- is it accurate to call this kicking the can down the road to some degree? JESSICA SCHNEIDER, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: It is -- it absolutely is, Jim, because what this really does is this puts a pause on that Idaho law that's been in place only for the past few months. But it doesn't settle the question of which one prevails. The Idaho law or similar laws like it, or this federal law that says two doctors and emergency rooms, you have to administer all necessary care when a woman is at risk for serious injury, even if that includes abortion. So it doesn't tell the country which laws prevail. You know, these near-total abortion bans, or this federal law mandating care, even including abortions. Instead what it does is it says, okay, Idaho, we're going to pause your law for now while the litigation over this issue continues. But the truth is, Jim, there are at least half a dozen to a dozen other states in the country that have these near- total abortion bans that aren't going to be impacted by the Supreme Court ruling. And they -- you know, they have the near-total abortion bans where doctors have to continue working in this state of confusion and concern that they could be prosecuted or fined if they perform abortions in certain circumstances. [15:30:03] So there's still a lot of uncertainty out there. And yes, like you said, the Supreme Court in this case just seemed to kick the can down the road. They'll likely have to deal with this overriding issue at some point in the future. SCIUTTO: And such a great point about the uncertainty because that's led many doctors, providers to just stay away from it, right? Because they're like if there's question here, I'm not going to get involved. All right. So, to be fair, there are lots of big decision still got to come, whether that's tomorrow, on Monday, just give you tick through them? SCHNEIDER: Yeah. You know, there are six opinions left, seven if you count one of them is two because its two cases involving social media. So it's a big social media case. There's also, you know, the biggest case that we've been waiting on since it was heard in the end of April, this case over immunity, whether Donald Trump and former presidents have immunity from criminal prosecution. This being the big one because the Supreme Court has never ruled on this issue before, and it will also directly impact how and whether Donald Trump actually goes to trial here in Washington, D.C. on those charges related to January 6. We also have a big one for law nerds, Jim, that deals with the Chevron doctrine, you know, whether or not courts have to defer to agency rule-making when Congress isn't explicit. You know, the Supreme Court has chipped away at agency power throughout the recent years. So, we'll see if they completely overturn that doctrine, which would be a huge blow to agency power. So those are probably the two big ones were waiting for. And then one other involving January 6, defendants in a certain law that they were used to, that prosecutors choose to convict them under to see if that law can hold. If it doesn't, it might overturn the sentences -- sentences of about 50 or so who have been convicted and maybe implicate even the president's charges to a certain extent. So, a lot still -- still to come. SCIUTTO: To say the least. Jessica Schneider, thanks so much. All right. So to help us break this down for more, Michele Goodwin joins us now, professor of constitutional law and global health policy at Georgetown University. Michele, good to have you. We need you, a lot to work through here. First on this Idaho decision, Ketanji Brown Jackson, she actually sided with majority but wrote a separate opinion objecting to the court failing to make a decision on the case. She wrote, quote, there was simply no good reason not to resolve this conflict now. So if it's correct to frame this, as Jessica did, what holds the Idaho law or federal law if that question is unresolved, when are we going to find out the answer to that question? MICHELE GOODWIN, PROFESSOR OF CONSTITUTIONAL LAW & GLOBAL HEALTH POLICY, GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY: Well, centuries ago, it was made very clear that federal law always trump's, states law, which is why this case is so alarming to some people. That is to say that although this case is about abortion rights, it fundamentally implicates American democracy and how we understand federalism and how we understand federal law is always preempting states law. What's clear in this decision is that this court has not dismantled EMTALA, the Emergency Medical Treatment and Labor Act. It does not cabin the law or constrain it and said, well, it applies to everybody else, but not pregnant people. It is true that the court has adjudicated this on a technical count, much like it did in the mifepristone abortion case from just a week or two ago. But fundamentally, what this means is that pregnant patients in crisis in Idaho should go to emergency rooms, should be able to receive a dignified health care that is medically informed, including if that means an abortion in order to stop what could be emergency hemorrhaging with a miscarriage or an ectopic pregnancy. SCIUTTO: It's such a great point about state versus federal law because that's also coming to play on it on immigration measures as we've seen. The court also -- it hasn't gone -- hasn't made the Chevron decision yet that Jessica was just describing, but you did have cases today affecting the EPA and the SEC. Can you tell us the importance -- the impact of those cases, those decisions? GOODWIN: Well, what's really concerning before this court overall, as she was mentioning, is the status of agency authority before this court. It's been a matter that has been throughout this particular term, the Chevron doctrine, this idea that agencies are in the best position to be able to determine because of the expertise within agencies exactly how to regulate matters that are essential to our lives, whether it happens to be air quality, water quality, or matter for such as that. Oftentimes there are corporations that are in conflict with agencies when agencies are leaning and using their authority to protect the health and safety of individuals against toxic pollutants, et cetera. There has been a concern that this is a Supreme Court that has been cutting back on agency, the authority, and that we would see some pretty big strikes this year. [15:35:05] That's still potentially in place and we certainly did see that contestation back to abortion in the mifepristone case with the Food and Drug Administration. SCIUTTO: Yeah. There was concern that they would have basically nixed the FDA's ability there. Listen, we're still waiting on the really big ones as it relate to this election. The biggest one being immunity, right? A question that a lot of folks thought -- well, firstly, could have decided a long time ago, months ago, they haven't. GOODWIN: That's right. SCIUTTO: Do you have any sense -- GOODWIN: That's right. SCIUTTO: It's a tough question. Do you have any sense of how the court is going to land -- the court's going to land on this? What's your best guess? GOODWIN: Well, during oral arguments, what we did here is considerable sympathy. It seems in some ways towards what the arguments that were made by the Trump defense team. But it's worth noting that this is a case that's already been so deeply vetted at the district court level with a Judge Chutkan, and then with a three panel hearing before the D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals. And what was a very -- what would seem to be a very well-reasoned, well-rounded argument being made by the D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals that no, no president is above the law and not immune from criminal punishments when the former president has broken the law. Trump's argument is that past presidents, current presidents, future presidents will always deserve what absolute immunity, meaning can do almost anything including as his lawyers argued, have someone from a Navy SEAL take out someone that they don't like. Still, we're waiting for that decision from the court and it's a mystery. It's a mystery what's going to happen. SCIUTTO: I mean, listen -- GOODWIN: No tea leaves to read you. SCIUTTO: It's amazing, as outrageous as that argument was, the SEAL team argument, immediately dismissed by the court of appeals quite quickly. It's been weeks the courts been taken about this. We'll see -- we'll see where it lands. Michele Goodwin, thanks so much. GOODWIN: Thank you. SCIUTTO: Coming up, what undecided voters say are the most important issues for them heading into tonight's debate? (COMMERCIAL BREAK) [15:40:17] SCIUTTO: Tonight is one of the best chances for both President Biden, former President Trump, to speak directly to voters who were on the fence about who they'll vote for in November. CNN's John King has spent the last few months speaking with voters all over the map about what exactly they want to hear. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Ray Flores owns a handful of restaurants in battleground Arizona and is unimpressed with both men who will share the debate stage. RAY FLORES, ARIZONA VOTER: At this juncture, they both had for years. And I'm just eight years more frustrated than I was before. I wish we had a candidate that had more of a middle of life and middle of the road perspective. And I'm very uncomfortable right now with either choice. KING: We hear that a lot. Our all over the map project is that 60 voters and counting across ten states, yes, President Biden has his share of true believers. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Biden, Biden, Biden. KING: Do you like him? UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Absolutely. I think he's done a great job. KING: So does Donald Trump. CHRIS MUDD, IOWA VOTER: I liked what happened in our economy for four years when Donald Trump was president. I liked the America first mindset. KING: But many voters dislike or have doubts about both, which makes this debate a critical campaign crossroads. KIM CAVALIERE, GEORGIA VOTER: I just don't feel comfortable with Biden's age and I don't feel comfortable with Trump's mouth. KING: For the incumbent, the cost of living is a giant challenge. Are your day-to-day costs the same now as the year-ago? FLORES: Oh, no, they're higher. KING: Rising rents came up a lot in Milwaukee and in Las Vegas, and in other places, Biden must dominate, like Atlanta. CAREY FULKS, GEORGIA VOTER: Everything here in Georgia is so expensive. I can only afford so much with whatever job I find. KING: Even strong Biden's supporters complain of supermarkets sticker shock. WALTER ROBINSON, JR., MICHIGAN VOTER: It's just me and my wife and his $200 every time I go to the grocery store. KING: The president's age is already part of the campaign debate. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No matter how many Taylor Swift references you make, you will never understand us. KING: A bigger Biden problem with younger voters is anger at his handling of the Hamas-Israel conflict. IBRAHIM GHAZAL, MICHIGAN VOTER: I don't think anybody wants -- nobody wants to vote for Biden. If Biden wants to get certain votes, he needs to change course. KING: Trump, though, also has a long list of weaknesses that could be debate flashpoints. Joan London just left the Republican Party and registered as an independent. JOAN LONDON, PENNSYLVANIA VOTER: I had more, more of a positive vision just a different emphasis, and I'm and -- what I'm saying in the national party just didn't reflect my values, the way it had. KING: Linda Rooney hasn't ruled out voting for Trump, but January 6 is an obstacle. LINDA ROONEY, PENNSYLVANIA VOTER: I remember watching it on TV and I couldn't believe that it was happening and I was angry that he didn't -- that Trump didn't say something, that Trump didn't stop it. KING: And yet you still might vote for him? ROONEY: I might. Yeah. KING: Matt Vrahiotes is a Georgia Christian conservative pondering a third party vote because of doubts about Trump's character. MATT VRAHIOTES, GEORGIA VOTER: Honestly, I wish that there was another candidate that would have come through the primaries instead of being just Donald Trump. KING: Yes. Many minds are already made up. But for those with doubts about both Biden and Trump, this is a giant test. (END VIDEOTAPE) SCIUTTO: Big test for both of them. After the break, we'll take you to the debate stage and show you exactly how for the first time the candidates mics will be muted, when it's not their turn to speak. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) [15:46:15] SCIUTTO: The court -- these are just live -- pictures just moments ago, I should say, of President Biden on his way in from the airport, making an unscheduled stop to shake hands and say hello to some supporters on the streets of Atlanta. You hear "four more years" chant there, from President Biden. He arrived in the Atlanta earlier this hour. Air Force One landing, now on his way downtown for the debate, which, of course, will begin as you can see on our clock, just over five hours from now, only here on CNN. While the choreography and rules of every presidential debate are important this time, included is something that's never been done before to presidential debate. The candidates mics will mute when it's not their turn to speak. Both campaigns have agreed to all the rules of this debate. CNN's Phil Mattingly and Victor Blackwell have a walkthrough for you on how this all will work -- will work exactly on the stage tonight. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CHIEF DOMESTIC CORRESPONDENT: Welcome to the set of the CNN presidential debate. We want to give our viewers a sense of the rules of the debate so that when they watch it, they can understand how President Biden and President Trump will be engaging with each other. Just after 9:00 p.m. Eastern, President Biden will enter from the right side of your screen. President Trump will enter from the left side of your screen. The podiums are eight feet apart. Directly across from them -- the moderators, CNN's Jake Tapper and Dana Bash. Now, a reminder that this is a television studio. There's no audience. Candidates will have two minutes to answer questions and one minute for responses and rebuttals. At the moderator's discretion, there may be an additional minute for follow-ups, clarifications, or responses. So how does a candidate know how much time is left to speak? Attached to the cameras in the studio and in the candidate's field of view or the timing lights. When the light show yellow, there are 15 seconds left and candidates answer or response. When the lights flash red, there are five seconds left, and when the display is solid red the time is up. At that point, the candidate's microphone will be turned off and the other candidate will have their microphone turned on. My colleague, Victor Blackwell, has more on that. VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN ANCHOR: Thank you, Phil. If we go behind the podiums, you can see two green lights. When they're on, they signal to the candidate his microphone is on. When the green lights are off, they signal to the candidate, his microphone is off. Now, I want to give you a sense of what it will look like for viewers at home if a candidate whose microphone is off interrupts a candidate whose microphone is on. So I'm standing at one podium and I'll ask Phil to come in and take the other podium. And so let's say I'm answering a question. My light is green and I'm speaking. Phil's microphone is off and his green lights are not illuminated. He's going to interrupt me as I'm speaking. And this is what it will sound like. My volume remains constant while Phil's interruption can be difficult to understand. MATTINGLY: Let's try the opposite. My microphone is now on. Victor's microphone is off and he's going to interrupt me. My volume remains constant while Victor's interruption can be difficult to understand. We should note, by agreeing to participate in this debate, both campaigns and candidates have also agreed to abide by these rules. The CNN presidential debate airs live at 9:00 p.m. Eastern. (END VIDEOTAPE) Thanks so much for victor and fill to walk us through all that now for a final thought, and tonight's pivotal presidential debate, a man whose mic we will never mute, Larry Sabato. He's the director of the Center for Politics at the University of Virginia, editor of "Returned to Normalcy: The 2020 Election that, quote, that Almost Broke America". Larry, good to have you back. LARRY SABATO, DIRECTOR OF THE CENTER FOR POLITICS, UNIVERSITY OF VIRGINIA: Thank you, Jim. SCIUTTO: So there's a lot of framing of tonight's debate that it's pivotal for both candidates, right? That's so many will be watching, the race is so tight numerically in the polls that this could be win or lose. And I wonder if you agree with that framing? [15:50:02] SABATO: I basically agree with it. I actually think there's more pressure on President Biden simply because there are so many things floating out there, many of them having been floated by the Trump campaign that are false, such as using drugs or having dementia, all of which is false to the extent we know, and I think we know. So I think the pressure is on him, but also since they are not true, he has a good chance to clear some of that up for the many minds that will tune in. The greatest number, Jim, I've seen is that 74 percent of Americans say they're going to tune in. Now, we know people always say they're going to do virtuous things. But if anything close to that number actually happens it will be one of if not the most watched presidential debate in our history, beginning in 1960. SCIUTTO: Yeah, that's a huge number. Okay, let's look at other numbers. CNN's latest poll of polls, which includes the five most recent national polls, it shows no clear race leader. Trump at 49, Biden at 47. That's tight. I wonder if you based on your analysis of the numbers see this as a toss up at this moment. SABATO: Yes, I do. I see it as a tossup even though if the election were held today under current conditions, if I had to pick, I probably pick Trump because of the advantage of the Electoral College, which tends to favor Republicans, and certainly favors him. But look, you know, every day, Jim, I get so many communications from people saying, oh my God, I just saw this poll. Oh, my goodness, this poll, and they're tearing themselves apart. And I tell them all, you will be so much happier and no worse off if you ignore the polls until after the Democratic convention. That's when they actually matter. SCIUTTO: Okay. By the way, we were just showing live picture there again of President Biden making an unscheduled stop on his way downtown Atlanta. So again, I know you just said don't pay attention to every poll every day. But you have things like Nate Silver's model yesterday that puts Trump at a 65.7 percent chance of winning. And then you have this, that stood out to my team and I, and that is that Biden has never had a numerical advantage in CNN's poll of polls. All margins that weren't zero have been appointed to in Trump's favor. Again, that's small but Biden's never led. And I just wondered, doe that -- do you look at that even with the proviso that you got to wait until the conventions that at this point, he's at least behind or should -- or do you dismiss that as well? SABATO: No, I don't dismiss it. I think that as I said, probably that is the case. And if the election were held now, probably Trump would win because of the Electoral College advantage. But think about it, Jim, even before the Republican Convention, you have Trump's sentencing. And who knows whether there will be any other legal actions between now and November, followed by the Republican conventions and the Democratic convention, the selection of Trump's VP and loads of things we can't imagine, here at home, in the Middle East, elsewhere. So we always project to today into tomorrow, and it's really inaccurate to do so. We have to restrain ourselves and that's what I'm arguing for -- restraint. SCIUTTO: Fair point. You -- God knows, you know better than virtually anyone. I will ask though on the point of legal developments because we have had a number of weeks of data and a number of polls since Trump was found guilty of those felony counts in New York, does the data show you that that move the needle in either direction? SABATO: I think it has deepened some doubts about Trump. They were already deep in some ways, but generally not among the slice, that tiny slice of people that might switch up. What it really tells me is that people did not think the offenses being tried in the Manhattan courtroom where all that serious, certainly compared to the other indictments that Trump has had. That's what I'm looking for. You know, everyone says there can't be anything before November. No, that actually isn't true. So let's keep an open mind about that. SCIUTTO: Fair point. Of course, we have a decision from the Supreme Court that very much might affect that particularly on the January 6 cases. All right. Now another question which doesn't relate to the horse race between the candidates, but the broader direction of the electorate. And I wonder if you saw a signal here from New York Representative Jamaal Bowman. Bowman losing his Democratic primary in Westchester County to a more moderate Democrat, George Latimer. It's a defeat for those House squad progressive lawmakers, most expensive House primary as well, we should note. But is that a signal to you for Democrats more broadly, right, Democratic voters want more for centrist candidates, or is this an isolated event? [15:55:04] SABATO: Well, it's 1/435th of the country, so I don't know beyond that. But I do think in general, while the center isn't holding the way it used to in American politics, most Americans are either center left or center right. You don't really have a large percentage way over on the right or way over on the left. And Joe Biden was known for this kind of centrist politics. One thing I have noted in surveys well beyond this election season, is that people thought that Joe Biden was going to govern more as a centrist. They perhaps have seen him as governor getting more from the left, to the degree that he can move back to not just the center, but the center left, I think he'll be better off. SCIUTTO: Larry Sabato, always good to have your wisdom. Thanks so much. SABATO: Thank you, Jim. SCIUTTO: And thanks so much to all of you for joining me today for STATE OF THE RACE. I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington. "QUEST MEANS BUSINESS" is up next. Quest Means Business Aired June 27, 2024 - 16:00 ET THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED. [16:00:07] RICHARD QUEST, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: The scene is set. The debate stage awaits. Tonight, Joe Biden and Donald Trump will face off in their first debate for this year's US presidential election, and it is here on CNN. Live from London on Thursday, July 27th. I'm Richard Quest and I mean business. Good evening. Five hours away from an unprecedented debate. President Biden and former President Trump will take the stage at CNN's headquarters in Atlanta as polls show the two are neck and neck. The current president arrived in Atlanta 15 minutes ago. he was there and immediately got down to business. This is the first time a sitting and former president have debated before millions of viewers and the stakes are, it is simply enormous as President Biden tries to calm concerns over his age and Donald Trump aims to discredit Mr. Biden's warning that he is too unhinged to be president again, and is a threat to democracy. In fact, Harry Enten who is with me in Atlanta, in fact both president current and former claim the other is a threat to democracy. So where are the polls and the views? HARRY ENTEN, CNN SENIOR DATA REPORTER: Look, this is one of the more interesting questions that folks have been answering, which is who do you believe as a bigger threat to democracy? And you would think that Donald Trump would be the one-way winner or loser on that question, given all the attacks that Joe Biden has leveled against him, but despite all of those attacks, what we actually see in the polls, those who would come better at protecting democracy, its only Biden slightly ahead. And so tonight is going to be the first real opportunity, in fact, perhaps the only opportunity, we will see if the second debate happens where Joe Biden can actually go on the offensive and try and reclaim this race because the fact is, incumbents who are trailing, even if by just a percentage point or two going in the first debate, I've looked back at the polls, there is not a single one of them who went on to win re-election. So tonight, all in my opinion, the pressure is on Joe Biden to actually show up and turn although, it is no clear leader, this two-point deficit into say, a two or three-point advantage. QUEST: What's the margin on that? What is the margin on that such that you would consider it is actually an even heat. ENTEN: I mean, look, what we know is historically speaking, if you were to take a poll at the end of the campaign and you said that one candidate was ahead by two, there are plenty of examples of candidates going on to win the popular vote are going onto win the election, right? Al Gore was behind by two or three points in the popular vote going into the 2000 election, he actually won it. Donald Trump was trailing by five to six points in Pennsylvania and Wisconsin and went on to win both of those states in 2016. So the fact, is the real way you can look at it is a close race, but tilting slightly in the direction of the former president. QUEST: Okay, so what is the litmus test that voters are using here? ENTEN: What is going to be important for these candidates to do tonight? All right, number one, for the incumbent, Joe Biden, he has to quell concerns over his age. Sixty-eight percent of likely voters said in a "New York Times" poll that came out yesterday, said, he is simply too old to be an effective president. How about the former president? Former President Donald Trump, what does he have to do? Well, according to a New York Times-Siena College poll that came out yesterday, 54 percent of likely voters said that he did not have the correct temperament to be president. So Biden tonight has to come out as energetic, show that he is still in control as the president of the United States. Donald Trump on the other actually has to show, dare I say that he is presidential, something of course is an adjective I am not sure, has often been used to describe the former president. QUEST: Right. But I read that interesting article that Hillary Clinton, former Sec State, wrote about -- as being one of the few people, I think probably of any woman who has debated both of them at the presidential contest level, and she was making the point that -- personally, there is only a year or two between them. It is not like Donald Trump is a spring chicken, and otherwise, and that the real risk -- the trap that Biden must not fall into is to allow Trump to have the bluster. ENTEN: Look, age is all perception, my friend. If I grow out my beard a little bit, you'd think I am a little bit older. I cut it off, you think I am a little bit younger. It is also about attitude and whether or not there is a few two years between them, voters see it very differently. They don't believe that Donald Trump is too old. They believe that Joe Biden is too old. So at the end of the day what Joe Biden has to do is not allow himself to get defined by Donald Trump. He has to be the one to define Donald Trump. [16:05:10] And he has to make sure that he maintains his presidential-ness. QUEST: We spend a huge amount of time talking about the presumptive nominee, God forbid, we actually say somebody is going to be the nominee before the actual conventions, and we argue about this in newsrooms up and down the country. And yet tonight, we have this debate earlier than ever before with neither man actually being touched on the shoulders yet. ENTEN: Correct. These are presumptive nominees and that I think is the big risk for Joe Biden coming out. Look, Donald Trump, as he said, I could shoot somebody on 5th Avenue, and they would still nominate me, essentially, right? I couldn't lose my support. The real risk here is for Joe Biden, who is still in some corners of the Democratic Party, they are saying, is he really the right guy? Is he too old? If he does poorly tonight, I would not be surprised if those whispers become louder and louder, maybe you even hear a few yells. QUEST: One final thought, it just occurred to me, I was thinking about it last week. ENTEN: Yes. QUEST: Hunter Biden -- if Hunter Biden goes to prison, does that give him an excuse for not doing, for basically saying, I need the family, it is time for the family. Find somebody at the convention. ENTEN: Well -- QUEST: Or am I so off the reservation that I've obviously been lying in a darkened room? ENTEN: Joe Biden has been running for president since before I was born. The idea that Joe Biden would voluntarily give up running again to me is about as insane as eating a piece of broccoli. It just will not happen. QUEST: Which president, I am president. I've never liked broccoli and I will not eat broccoli. ENTEN: George HW Bush. QUEST: I could go further and ask you the occasion, but I remember it unfortunately, when he said it. Thank you, sir. ENTEN: My pleasure. Be well in London. QUEST: I will serve broccoli when you come to dinner. Thank you. The candidates will try to sell voters on their vision and then cast doubts about their opponent as you heard. Both have released new attack ads in recent days. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) VOICE OVER: When you think about the Joe Biden you saw on the debate, ask yourself the question: Do you think the guy who was defeated by the stairs, got taken down by his bike, lost a fight with his jacket, and regularly gets lost, makes it four more years in the White House? And you know, who is waiting behind him, right? VOICE OVER: Donald Trump loves to attack Joe Biden. DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Joe Biden -- Joe Biden -- VOICE OVER: Because he is focused on revenge and he has no plan to help the middle class. He'd just give more tax cuts to the wealthy. (END VIDEO CLIP) QUEST: Maria Cardona is a Democratic strategist and co-host of the podcast "Hot Mics from Left to Right." Scott Jennings is a former special assistant to President George W. Bush. They both join me now. Quick fire round. Start with you, Maria, then speak up, Scott. What are you looking forward to most tonight? Go. MARIA CARDONA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I am looking forward to Joe Biden showing up and destroying the low expectations that I think stupidly, the Trump campaign has put out there for the president, and I think that is exactly what he is going to do. He is going to be on it. He is going to know policy. He is going to focus on the American voters, talk directly to them, directly to camera, and talk to them about what he has done and how unfit Donald Trump is for office. QUEST: Unfit for office. Scott? SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: The pressure is all on Joe Biden tonight. He is losing the race. The latest "New York Times" polling, the Gallup polling, the swing state polling, he is down in this race. A simple high tonight, or a simple show up and don't make any catastrophic errors, that is not good enough. The reason we are having this debate is because Biden wanted it to change the trajectory of the campaign. If he fails to do that tonight, he still stuck in the same quick sand he has been in for months. QUEST: So the issue that they will both hone in on, start with you, Scott, what do you think becomes the number one issue. Both for Biden's weakness and for Trump's strength? JENNINGS: Well, for Donald Trump, he needs to focus on inflation, cost of living, that has got to dominate the issue set tonight. Secondary, immigration. But for most Americans -- Democrat, Republican, working class, blue collar, white collar -- if you're living in America right now, you're living in a high inflation, high cost of living environment. That is where Donald Trump needs to go every chance he gets. QUEST: If we were having a normal QUEST MEANS BUSINESS, Scott, I would dispute the high cost since inflation has come down quite considerably, but we are not tonight. We are focusing on the politics of that. So, Maria, is -- whether it is high cost now, the reality is, it has certainly been high cost over the last few years of -- and largely one has to say, as a result of President Biden's stimulus package, which in hindsight was absolutely not necessary. [16:10:14] CARDONA: Well, I think economists would say that it was actually about a global recession, Richard, you know that better than anyone. And I think what Joe Biden will do tonight, Richard, is talk about his accomplishments, but also he does need to exude empathy for many Americans who have not felt the massive growth, the job creation, the wage growth. And so he needs to understand that and say, look, I got you, I got your back. I am working for you. I need another four years to make sure that this economy is working for everyone. But look at Donald Trump, if you hire him, every economist has said that his policies would explode inflation, would lose jobs, and would cost American families more and that is exactly what Biden needs to focus on tonight. QUEST: We always say these things are won on pocketbook issues. It is the economy, stupid, et cetera, et cetera. But when it comes to foreign affairs. Now, Joe Biden came into this as being the great foreign affairs expert, but Afghanistan proved how difficult it was. Youve had misery in Ukraine. He can't get -- it took him months to get further armaments to the Ukrainians, and Russia is an appalling mess in relations with China, or there was. Maria, he has got a lot to defend on this. CARDONA: Well, I think he also has a lot to be on the offense on, Richard because you're right, the world is on fire. And when the world is on fire, you want some somebody that isn't just a steady hand in the White House, but that has the relationships, that has the experience, that has the knowledge to make sure that whatever is going on is going to be good and secure for the American people. They don't want somebody who is chaotic. They don't want somebody who actually looks up to dictator like Putin and like the one in Korea and China and everywhere else that he has said all great things about them. And so that I think, at the end of the day, is something that is very important to the American people, which also connects to the danger to democracy that Donald Trump represents. QUEST: Even as you were speaking, Scott was shaking his head. JENNINGS: Richard, I just -- look, the world is on fire and you can't have the arsonist and the firefighter be one and the same. When Joe Biden took over, they told us the adults are back in charge. And what has happened all over the world? Anything but good. And yet, the original sin of all this was Afghanistan. That's when Joe Biden's approval rating went under water. It has never come back up. That's when the American people realized, there are no adults here, just a bunch of chaos and that's why, originally they decided, we may have made a mistake. QUEST: Right, but Scott, there is an unhealthy liking by Donald Trump for dictators. And do we really want to look at another four years of wondering whether Volodymyr Putin's got dodgy pictures and videos of Donald Trump in a Moscow hotel room? JENNINGS: I think you're peddling long debunked talking points from the Democratic Party. The reality is when Democrats were in the White House, Vladimir Putin does stuff. When Obama was in, he went into Georgia. When Biden was in, he went into Ukraine. When Donald Trump was in, he didn't do nothing. And so I think that's what Donald Trump is going argue tonight. CARDONA: He doesn't -- he didn't do anything because Donald Trump will offer Ukraine and other places to Putin on a silver platter. QUEST: Whoa. Whoa. Slow the carriage. I want you -- look, you both -- you live, breathe, eat, sleep politics and you've done it for decades and it is part of your lives. Now, give me a human moment. Scott, what are you looking -- forget the candidates, both sides. What are you really looking forward to tonight? JENNINGS: Plausibility. You know, Donald Trump, the way he left office, it seemed implausible that he could ever come back. QUEST: Yes. JENNINGS: What he has to prove tonight is that he is a plausible commander- in-chief for the next four years and for Joe Biden, I think he has to show plausibility, too, but just on am I up to this? A big part of this campaign is that the vast majority of American people have concluded, he can't serve four more years and the specter of Kamala Harris is not helping his ticket. QUEST: Maria, you're a political junkie like the rest. CARDONA: I am. And I actually agree with Scott, but in a different way. I think Joe Biden needs to go up there and he needs to remind the American people what chaos four years of Donald Trump represented when Donald Trump put in place, Richard, the family separation, his policy that ripped babies from the arms of their mothers, that was a collective scar on the national psyche. [16:15:07] And Donald -- and Joe Biden needs to remind people of that and say, when he gets another four more years, if he gets another four more years, it is going to be a lot worse and it is going to put all of the country in danger. QUEST: I thought we found some common ground, but then we suddenly didn't. I will buy you both a strong cup of tea when I get back. Thank you very much. CARDONA: I would love that. Thanks, Richard. QUEST: Good to see you both. JENNINGS: Love it. QUEST: Thank you. Now, the presidential debate, it is history making, not just because it is so early, but because the candidates, a present and a former, it is going to be absolutely remarkable, however, it turns out whoever use support. And it is tonight, it is at 9:00 PM Eastern and we will replay the whole thing again at seven London time, which is two in Hong Kong or seven in London. Even I am getting the bell -- ten in Abu Dhabi. All right, years ago, they used to say, it is the economy stupid. Well, it will be front and center tonight at the debate. The renowned economist, Joseph Stiglitz. He is one of the group of Nobel Prize winners that is warning of consequences of a second Donald trump term, in a moment. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) QUEST: As Donald Trump and Joe Biden get ready to defend their respective economic records, a group of Nobel Prize winning economists has weighed in. They have written a second Trump term would have negative impact on the US economy, standing in the world and destabilizing effect on the US domestic economy. Apparently, Donald Trump's policies could worsen inflation and they accuse him of fiscal irresponsibility. US debt then soared under both presidents. Donald Trump wants to extend the 2017 tax cuts and lower taxes on corporations. President Biden has proposed increasing taxes on millionaires and billionaires and blamed inflation in part on corporate greed. Professor Stiglitz, Joseph Stiglitz is one of the 16 prize-winning economists who wrote that letter, signed that letter. He was an adviser to Bill Clinton. He is a good friend of ours and is happy -- always happy to have him on the program. Professor Stiglitz, again, look, I am not being uncharitable, but I can hear people saying, well, half of these economists are all left-wingers and left-leaning to begin with. They would say that about Donald Trump. [16:20:06] JOSEPH STIGLITZ, NOBEL PRIZE WINNING ECONOMIST: Look, this is a very heterogeneous group of economists and there are very specific concerns that are usually concerns of the right-wing. For instance, we worry about the rule of law. We worry about the imposition of tariffs, about the magnitude of budget deficits. You know, the concerns that various economists of our 16 put different things at the top of their list. All of them though were agreed that the policy mix and they experience that we had on four years previously were such as to really endanger our economy going forward. QUEST: I can hear Donald Trump using that famous phrase that Vice President Quayle used years ago, talking about the media, you may remember. He said, "I wear that scorn as a badge of honor." He can turn this around and say, if these men and women are against me, I must be doing something right. STIGLITZ: There are some circumstances in which that is true, but this is not one of them. The fact is that when you do the calculations, when you look at the consequences of his proposed increases in tariffs, of his proposed tax cuts for the billionaires, obvious proposed deregulation leading to another financial crisis, deregulation exposing us more to climate change, obvious repeal of the IRA provisions that would lead to higher drug prices, of his undermining support for science -- all of these are pretty objective. I think any reasonable American would say there is a problem here. QUEST: Which for you, I mean, is the most worrying bearing in mind, obviously, your great interest obviously, in social equity and fairness. STIGLITZ: Well, I think the two things are precisely the fact that the overwhelming consequence of his policy is to make the billionaires, the people at the top, the top one percent, top one-tenth of one percent are better off and actually make the people at the bottom worse off. Besides that, it is the basic rule of law and that is essential to the functioning of our society, but also of our economy. QUEST: Did you ever think, and you know, not being considered as a compliment, sir, you've been round, you've been around a few elections in your lifetime, did you think that you would ever sign a letter against specifically one of the candidates in a presidential election? STIGLITZ: I never envisioned myself facing a situation where the magnitude of what was at stake was so large and the list of things in economic terms that were being proposed were so wrong. I never thought I would face a discussion of a Republican that was against -- that was centered around imposing tariffs, that was centered around a set of measures that would increase the cost of living for so many Americans, that repealed science funding. Even his own Republican Party members disagreed with him during his first administration, but a second administration where he is untethered would lead a cutback of science, that is the basis of America's leadership in the world. QUEST: Finally, the strength of the US economy. I am in London tonight and the British economy is not doing very well and there is an election here and there will be in France and the French have got an election, and the economy is not doing very well there. And the German economy is in somewhat of distress at the moment. And Japan -- Wherever I look, there is distressed economies as we prosper the prospect of lower interest rates. [16:25:10] The US is doing the best of all then. STIGLITZ: That's right, and I think that is partly because of what President Biden has done over the last four years. The measures that he put in place soon after he took office gave US a stronger basis, a stronger stimulus than other countries had. It also lowered poverty rates among children in one year by more than 40 percent, and then he passed this infrastructure bill. Then he passed the Science and CHIPS Act to make our economy more resilient. And then he pass the IRA that has put us in leadership and the transition to a post fossil fuel world. The fact of the matter is, the set of policies that have been passed in a very divided Congress has been very impressive, surprising, and is the reason why our economy is stronger than that of any of the other countries. QUEST: I am grateful to you, sir. Thank you very much. As always, for coming on QUEST MEANS BUSINESS. It is an honor to have you on the program. STIGLITZ: Thank you. QUEST: The two presidents have agreed to have their microphones muted tonight when it is not their turn to speak. We will look at how that rule might shape the debate of viewers and the candidates. They are only eight feet apart. What does that mean in practical life, in a moment. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) [16:30:19] QUEST: Means Business in just a moment. Four-and-a-half hours ago and we'll continue our coverage of tonight's US Presidential Debate on CNN, of course. More unrest in Kenya even after its president backed down on a controversial tax bill. We'll get to all of that shortly after the news headlines (inaudible) this is CNN. And on this network, the news always comes first. A Bolivian general has been arrested following Wednesday's attempted coup. Juan Jose Zuniga has been dismissed as commander of the Bolivian army on Tuesday. The video shows President Luis Arce confronting him ahead of the arrest. Bolivia's defense minister says the government has now regained total control of its armed forces. China is deepening a purge within the top ranks of its own military. It expelled the former defense minister, Li Shangfu, and his predecessor from the ruling Communist Party, accusing them of corruption. Li was removed in October last year without explanation after he vanished from public view for two months. For the first time in 20 years, Beijing has sent giant pandas to the United States. Two of them left on Wednesday for their new home at the San Diego Zoo. And the diplomacy between the US and China goes back to 1972. China has recalled most of the animals amid tensions with Washington. Donald Trump and Joe Biden have agreed to a specific set of rules for tonight's debate. There's no live audience and microphones will be muted until it's their turn to speak. No props or pre-written notes are allowed, and the debate will run 90 minutes with two breaks. The candidates will have limited time to answer questions and respond to their opponents. Boris Sanchez visited the debate stage and shows us how the candidates will know when their time is up. BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's where these lights above the cameras come in handy. That's going to turn green when the candidates have 15 seconds left to speak, they'll turn red, a flashing red when they have five seconds left to speak, and a full red light will shine off the top of that camera when their time has expired. The big question tonight is, how will these candidates handle the rules? And one of the key questions, when the mics are muted, are we going to be able to hear if another candidate continues speaking? Again, they're only eight feet apart, so while we at home may have trouble making out what these candidates are saying to each other, the other candidate will undoubtedly be able to hear what's going on now. QUEST: Jeff Zeleny is with me in Atlanta. This mics being switched off, the choreography, you know, the Hillary Clinton sort of saying Trump stalked around the stage when they debated all those years ago. What do you make of tonight. JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF US NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Richard, there's no doubt the biggest difference from those debates of yesterday are the fact that there will be no audience in the debate. That is something that both candidates agreed upon. There's no doubt that the microphones will be something that we'll be watching tonight, to see how both President Biden and former President Donald Trump handle them. Speaking of audience, of course, this is a global audience, international audience. But right here in Georgia, the battleground state of Georgia, where Joe Biden won by fewer than 12,000 votes, just out of five million votes cast four years ago, sets the stage for a very critical rematch this year. We've been talking to Georgia voters who are very closely watching tonight's debate. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) ZELENY: Mariama Davis is busy in her Atlanta boutique, hopeful for the summer ahead. MARIAMA DAVIS, GEORGIA DEMOCRATIC VOTER: Hey there. Welcome to the Beehive. ZELENY: When you ask her that age old question in politics -- (on-camera): Are things better for you than they were four years ago? ZELENY: Her deliberate answer is telling. DAVIS: I mean, with the loan forgiveness and that, definitely better. But things are, you know, might be just a little slight increase, but they feel pretty much the same. ZELENY: It's not worse. DAVIS: It's not worse. It's not worse. ZELENY: While it's hardly the slogan President Biden is running on, it taps into a sentiment often expressed by supporters like Davis. She manages The Beehive, a small business like so many on an economic roller coaster. DAVIS: If people have a choice to buy eggs or food, and gifts, we still expect them to buy food for their families. But like I said, our doors are still open, so we're grateful for that. ZELENY: She's also grateful the president is seeking a second term, and has high hopes for his chances in Georgia, where Biden defeated Donald Trump by 11,779 votes out of 5 million casts, the closest margin of any battleground. [16:35:10] KELVIN KING, CONSERVATIVE REPUBLICAN LEADER: A good candidate on either side may be able to sway voters in Georgia. ZELENY: Kelvin King, a Conservative Republican leader, backed Trump in 2016 and 2020. KING: And thank you for fighting for all Americans. ZELENY: While he believes Biden is vulnerable on inflation, immigration and more, he said a Trump victory here is hardly guaranteed. KING: We have new Republicans who are excited about President Trump. We have some Republicans that are not. ZELENY: It's one of the biggest questions of the race, can Trump capitalize on Biden's challenges? The former president's campaign has started opening offices across the state, like this one in Marietta. But Trump has yet to bury the hatchet with the popular Republican governor, Brian Kemp. DONALD TRUMP (R), FORMER US PRESIDENT AND PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Let me tell you, this guy's a disaster. ZELENY: Who refused to give in to Trump's demands to overturn the election, which made Georgia an early epicenter of criminal charges against him. KING: Relitigation is not going to drive people to the polls, at least not the folks in the middle, the votes that we need, but focusing on today and tomorrow is really where we need to be. ZELENY: Georgia is among the battlegrounds Trump is trying to win back, along with Arizona while also picking up Nevada, which he lost twice. Biden could lose all three and still win re election if he holds the blue wall of Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania and a single electoral vote in Nebraska. To keep all pathways open, Democrats are making big investments in Georgia with a dozen offices. KAMALA HARRIS, VICE PRESIDENT OF UNITED STATES: We will gather, we will organize, we will build community, we will build coalitions. ZELENY: That fraying coalition is a pressing challenge facing the Biden campaign. When we met Kerry Singleton last year, he was disappointed Biden hadn't achieved all of his promises. KERRY SINGLETON, GEORGIA DEMOCRATIC VOTER: As we all hold Trump accountable, you know, we have to hold Biden accountable. ZELENY: After hearing the President deliver a commencement address at Morehouse College last month, and focusing on his notes November choice, he sees it differently. SINGLETON: My disagreements previously do not matter as much as the two people that we have as choices here. And to me, former President Donald Trump just isn't an option whatsoever. ZELENY: Back at the Beehive, Davis is optimistic for the fall, and for her status quo sounds just fine. DAVIS: You know what you're getting with Joe Biden. He doesn't pull any punches. He's a straight shooter. And I'm happy to see more of the same. (END VIDEOTAPE) QUEST: Jeff Zeleny is with me. When the talking on the stage is over, the talking backstage begins. Talk me through it. ZELENY: Richard, it certainly does and that's where the spin room comes in. That's where I am right now. It is in the arena at Georgia Tech, just across from the CNN studios. And this is where advisors for the Biden campaign and the Trump campaign will be afterward. And this is the biggest example of how the 90 minutes on stage is certainly important, but the debate will linger on, and it will linger on here as the advisors try to spin what their candidates did. Now, of course, CNN has our stage here, but other news organizations from around the country in the world do as well. So the reason this debate is so closely watched, the reason we are calling it historic, is because it's so early. So both sides agreed to this early debate to try and shake up this very stable race. We will see if either of the candidates on stage do that tonight. QUEST: Jeff, you've obviously been in spin rooms galore. So what's it like when, you know, one of the spinners comes up to you? You know, do they sort of say, hey, Jeff, my guy did grill. He said this, he did -- how do they do it? ZELENY: That's pretty much how they do it. But usually it's cleanup duty. If something happened on stage that was not really good, that's what the advisors or their surrogates try and clean up, if you will. We used to ignore them, frankly, when I was a newspaper reporter working for the New York Times and other places, we ignored spin rooms. What happens on the stage stays on the stage. But it's slightly different now because these moments can be framed in different ways. Richard, one thing that's different for this debate, Donald Trump is going to have a cast of surrogates here, Republicans who are likely to be his running mate. He's inviting North Dakota Governor Doug Burgum here, Senator JD Vance, Marco Rubio, Tim Scott, almost everyone from his short list of running mates will be right here in the spin room tonight making his case, defending him. So we are likely to see the vice presidential running mate here tonight. The question is, which one will it be? So it's a casting call of sorts as well. QUEST: Thank you -- excellent. Thank you, Jeff. Jeff Zeleny in the spin room in Atlanta. And hours before, everything begins there, the US Supreme Court ruled on a subject that sure to be discussed. The justices voted six to three to allow emergency abortions in Idaho. The opinion, you remember, was mistakenly posted on the court's website yesterday. [16:40:10] It wasn't the only major decision to come from the high court. The judges rejected a bankruptcy plan that would have shielded the Sackler family from further legal action over the opioid crisis with OxyContin. Jessica Schneider is in Washington. Jessica, before we get to what they did decide, I just got a -- I'm sorry, I've just got to go on a frolic. We are still waiting for the decision on the presidential immunity. JESSICA SCHNEIDER, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Yes. QUEST: Do you think think the justices says we cannot bring that out the day of the debate or before the debate? We are going to shove it in a drawer and wait until afterwards? What do you think? SCHNEIDER: You know, the chief justice, John Roberts, he worked in political administrations, George W. Bush. I mean, he understands the implications of politics. So I don't think it's beyond the realm of possibility that they consider that in not releasing it, but who knows? QUEST: Yes. SCHNEIDER: They might just not be finished since they didn't hear it until two months ago. And it's probably the biggest case on their docket. QUEST: Of all we heard today, which is the most important one vis-a-vis the election? SCHNEIDER: Oh, boy. Probably all issues surrounding abortion. So the fact that we had two abortion cases before the Supreme Court this term, including one opinion we got today, I mean, those are probably the cases that impact the election the most. And in a way, Richard, this decision today, it gives some reprieve maybe to Republicans who have faced such backlash when it comes to abortion and the fact that three of Donald Trump's nominees to the Supreme Court helped overturn Roe v. Wade. But, you know, the decision that came out today, it doesn't answer the question. It doesn't end the controversy about this Idaho near total abortion ban. What it does is just halt the law for now while the litigation continues at the lower courts. It's quite possible that this issue will get back up before the Supreme Court about which law prevails, the Idaho law or the federal law. So -- and I'll note, Richard, as well, even though the Supreme Court's decision today paused the Idaho near total abortion ban, there are still about a half dozen to a dozen states in this country that have very similar bans that aren't stopped, that do continue to be in effect. So abortion's a hot topic for the 2024 election for sure. QUEST: We're going to hear about it tonight. I'm absolutely certain. Jessica, thank you. Thank you very much. As you and I continue tonight, explorer Steve Boyes encounters one of this planet's strangest looking birds. And he does so in a remote swamp in Zambia. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) [16:45:25] QUEST: We're going to embark on an epic mission with South African explorer Steve Boyes as part of the Rolex Perpetual Planet Initiative. He's on a multi-year expedition across Africa where he will scientifically document the continents massive inland river basins. Today, he's visiting a remote region in Zambia where he'll meet up with a scientist who's looking after one of the world's most peculiar creatures. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) STEVE BOYES, SOUTH AFRICAN EXPLORER: Bengweulu means where the water meets the sky in the local language. Beautiful reflections off the water. QUEST: A vast wetland that stretches for almost 10,000 kilometers. Bengweulu is one of Africa's most diverse ecosystems, home to some extraordinary species. BOYES: I've never been here to the Bengweulu swamps before and I'm intrigued. Abundant bird life, thousands, tens of thousands of lechwe. You can hear the hippos calling, you have the hyenas coming around. This system has a lot to teach us. Call to Earth guest editor Steve Boyes and his expedition team have been joined on the water by ornithologist and conservationist, who has been living in the swamps for three years, studying and rehabilitating one of its most iconic species. Standing up to five feet tall, with an eight foot wingspan and a large clog shaped beak that gives them their name, the shoebill is one of the strangest looking birds on the planet, listed as vulnerable by the IUCN. Bengweulu is the southernmost population remaining in the world, with no more than 215 individuals surviving in these wetlands. MARGARET HIRSCHAUER, BANGWEULU SHOEBILL PROGRAM MANAGER: A lot of people say they look quite prehistoric, like dinosaurs. They have a really sharp, massive hook on the end of their beak, and razor sharp edges to both the top and bottom of their bills. So they grab these slippery, powerful fish, and then crush their skulls with one or two chomps. BOYES: I'm an ornithologist, I'm meant to be an expert, but shoebills leave me lost for words. They do. You just look at it and you go, I don't know, extraordinary. Here he goes. QUEST: Unlike many of the systems Steve has explored in the past, Bengweulu also has an abundance of people, around 60,000 living in the swamps. But shoebills face the threat of capture to be sold on the illegal exotic pet market. And much of Maggie's job has been educating and integrating the local fishing community into the bird's protection. HIRSCHAUER: So the main core underpinning of all of this program is the community engagement. We have a nest protection program where fishermen actually notify us when they find nests. And we then go into the swamps, we verify that nest, and we get data through those reports. The shoebills typically lay two eggs, not always but typically, and almost always. If they lay two eggs, one of the chicks kills the other. It's just competition. We can capitalize on that, and we take one of the eggs or one of the chicks off the nest. We bring it into our facility, and we raise it without human contact, and then we release them back into Bengweulu. QUEST: The Great Spine of Africa expeditions will provide Maggie and other scientists with a whole host of new information about species like the shoebill, with data on the ecosystems surrounding them and even new undocumented populations in other parts of the continent. Systems like this teach us that it is possible. It is possible to have living abundance under the pressure of people. People are pressure, they're part of it. They're meant to be here. You can't value something until you can measure it, and you can measure change in it. So that is what our baselines are. It's the beginning of measuring value. (END VIDEO CLIP) QUEST: More on Steve and his team, tune in for "Call to Earth: The Great Spine of Africa." It's this weekend on CNN. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) [16:52:32] QUEST: Boeing is in trouble with US safety regulators for revealing details concerning January's door plug blowout. The plane maker was speaking to journalists about quality improvements at its factory in Washington State. The NTSB said Boeing must not present facts from an ongoing investigation. Our Aviation Correspondent Pete Muntean was at that news briefing, that's the full story. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) PETE MUNTEAN, FOX NEWS AVIATION CORRESPONDENT: This inside look we got here at Boeing was really significant, the first since the January 5th door plug blowout. Boeing executives here insisted to me and other reporters that type of omission will not happen again. And they laid out this four point plan for fixes here. But they also dropped a really big bombshell here. Boeing executives said that there was no documentation, workers made no paperwork entries about that fateful door plug work. That meant that workers did not know that that work was still being finished when the plane was pushed out of the factory here in Renton, and that plane was essentially a ticking time bob until the door plug blowout on January 5th. Boeing insists it is cut down on that kind of work by half. It is known as traveling work. Those are unfinished jobs that begin on one part of the production line and continue moving down the production line. And we saw how Boeing is literally putting the brakes on that. There was a blank in one of the steps of the production line where the previous plane would have moved forward, but it had some of that unfinished work, so it stayed in the previous spot. I want you to listen now to Elizabeth Lund. She is the Head of Quality Control here at Boeing, rumored to be the next CEO of Boeing. And I asked her if that kind of omission, that door plug work that ultimately led to the blowout, could happen again. How confident are you that the door plug incident, what led to it will not happen again? ELIZABETH LUND, SENIOR VICE PRESIDENT OF QUALITY, BOEING: I'm extremely confident. I am extremely confident that the actions that we took have ensured that every airplane leaving this factory is safe. I feel very confident that it will not happen again. MUNTEAN: The other big news to come out of this visit, the National Transportation Safety Board is now sanctioning Boeing for releasing that information about the door plug blowout and its investigation of this. The NTSB says it controls the release of information that Boeing essentially spoke out of term. Pete Muntean, CNN, Renton, Washington. (END VIDEOTAPE) [16:55:03] QUEST: The markets now finished barely higher after hitting session lows in afternoon trading. Salesforce carried a big part of the weight, up 4 percent after its annual shareholder meeting. Merck is at the bottom. The FDA rejected its application for a new lung cancer drug. Micron is down 7 percent on disappointing quarterly earnings. And you can see the markets and how did they traded to. The debate is still ahead. We'll have a profitable moment just before that. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) QUEST: Tonight's profitable moment. So the first debate of the 2024 presidential campaign will be tonight. And you've heard the superlatives. It's the first time a current and a former president have debated in this fashion. It's the first time we've had the debate so early on in the season when they are still presumptive nominees. They've not been, if you will, touched on the shoulder by their respective parties. But that doesn't matter. That's sophistry, if you will. Why do we care about these debates? Because they give us a window into what's happening in the political process. The first debate, of course, Nixon and Kennedy, and the archetypal and famous phrase from that one is that if you listen to it on radio, you thought Nixon won, but if you watch it on television, you thought Kennedy won. He looked younger, more vibrant. Nixon looked old, grey, and he sweated a great deal. And then, you've got the great debate moments. I was friends with Jack Kennedy. Senator, you'll know Jack Kennedy. That was, of course, Lloyd Bentsen to Dan Quayle. And as you move through them, you've got Ronald Reagan to Jimmy Carter. There you go again, these little bombast which absolutely riveted the electorate. And that's what everybody says about the debate. We remember Joe Biden saying, oh, come on, man, will you shut up? We remember Hillary Clinton's exasperation, and we remember Donald Trump's bombast in the various debates. And so that's pushing us forward tonight. The expectations on both men are high and at the same time they're very low. Donald Trump doesn't have to blow up and be vulgar and rude, and Joe Biden merely has to stay awake and stay on his own two feet, and people will say it was an achievement. But the electorate's not that fooled, the electorate tonight we'll be looking to see how the men comport themselves, what they say, what they believe, and does that frizzle (ph), are they the right one for the job. And that's Quest Mean Business for tonight. I'm Richard Quest whatever you're up to. END CNN Live Event / Special Aired June 27, 2024 - 17:00 ET THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) [17:00:53] KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN HOST: It is debate night here in America. We are now just four hours away from a pivotal moment in the razor thin race for the White House. It is the CNN presidential debate. I'm Kaitlan Collins live from the CNN spin room, which is just steps away from that debate hall where President Biden and former President Trump are preparing to face off for the first time in four years. It's also the first time that a current and former president, Wolf, have ever debated. WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: And I'm Wolf Blitzer in Atlanta. We're covering tonight's historic showdown from every angle. Both candidates hoping to land new attacks and speak directly to voters as they try to shake up a race that's been deadlocked for months. Right now, our political team is gathering new information inside both campaigns as we count down to the most consequential event of the election, at least so far. You're watching debate night in America. COLLINS: And we start off this hour with CNN's Jeff Zeleny. Jeff, obviously, a big question here is about the rules for this debate. That's what makes it unique and different from what we saw when these two candidates were last on stage together in 2020. Give us an overview of exactly what it's going to look like inside that debate hall tonight. JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kaitlan, it certainly does. And we should point out, both campaigns, both candidates have agreed to these rules. And the rules are there will be no audience. And that will be dramatically different from the debates four years ago and certainly other debates we've seen. In fact, it will be more like the first televised presidential debate between John F. Kennedy and Richard Nixon, where there was just the two candidates and the moderators in the studio. So it will be the candidates who will be standing just eight feet apart. This will be at close range to say the least. And the two men, as you said, have not been in the same room for four years. They've been, of course, campaigning and dueling from long distance. They will be at close range tonight. They are not allowed to bring in any notes. They are not allowed to have any advisers, even during the two commercial breaks. So they will be standing there. We will see if they engage with one another. But perhaps one of the biggest changes from the first debate last time, which was filled with interruptions and hectoring from the -- at the time President Donald Trump to former vice President Joe Biden, is the microphones. The microphones will only be on for the candidates who are speaking at that time. They will have a couple minutes to answer the questions and then they will have one minute to rebut. But again, the microphone only on when the candidate who is being directed a question will speak. So we will see how that changes the dynamic of this. But it will not be until after the debate is over, 90 minutes long. They'll be standing on stage where they will be joined by one guest, if it's a family member or friend, we shall see. But that is the only time they will have a lifeline, if you will, after the debate is over. So, it's extraordinary, Kaitlan. These two candidates, very practiced, of course, have been on so many stages, they will be standing alone tonight eight feet apart right here in Atlanta. COLLINS: Yes. Neither of them is a stranger to the debate stage, but they might be a little rusty. They haven't been on it in four years. ZELENY: Right. COLLINS: Certainly not, you know, in this kind of sense that we are going to see here tonight with each other. And obviously, Jeff, that likely influences how these campaigns were preparing for tonight. What have you heard from officials in both camps about how the rules and how all of these changes are factoring into? What it's going to look like when they get on stage? ZELENY: Look, they both are trying to do a similar thing and shake up the race to make voters see them as the best alternative for a second term. For the Biden side, they are trying to remind voters, shake them, if you will, to remind people of the Trump administration what he did during his four years in office and his plans for a second term should he make them. They were trying to disqualify him in the minds of voters, but also trying to sort of get Democrats and others who may not be thrilled about a Biden second term to see him as an unacceptable alternative. But for the Trump side, they are focusing on Biden's record. [17:05:06] Kaitlan, that is probably the biggest difference of these debates overall is that Biden now has a presidential record. He has stood on so many debate stages, but this is the first time that he has his own record on inflation, on the economy, on immigration, and indeed foreign affairs. So this will not be simply talking about the Trump record as happened four years ago. Both records will be side by side. But that is where history may not be our best guide here. We have two incumbent presidents. They both have a practice record. The question here is style and stamina. Talking to voters here in Georgia this week, Kaitlan, perhaps they're not interested in the nuance of policy as much as which one looks the most presidential, which one looks strong. Again, standing for 90 minutes, it's not easy. So we will see how each one of these candidates do tonight. But it's 90 minutes on stage. But this will linger for far longer, likely for the rest of the campaign. Kaitlan? COLLINS: Yes, both records will be scrutinized. We'll see how they defend them. Jeff Zeleny, thank you for that. And Bakari Sellers, part of my all-star panel is back here with me, that is a great point that Jeff makes, is last time, you know, President Biden was on stage, he had not yet been president. He didn't have a record to defend in the same sense that Donald Trump did, certainly not because of the coronavirus pandemic. But the other thing is not even what they're going to say, it's the fact that they are 8ft apart from one another. And Chris Wallace, who is one of two people who knows what it's like to moderate a debate with these two, he said that's much closer than they were in that first debate of 2020. They were not standing anywhere near that close. BAKARI SELLERS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: So there are a couple of things about, one, and Jonah brought this up earlier, defending his record. He now has a presidential record to run on. And I think we all know that for Joe Biden, it's about the record, but that's really secondary on voters' minds. It's how he looks when he defends his record. People want to know that Joe Biden can do the job. He's 81 years old, we know that. Both of the -- I hate the fact that we try to say one is old and the other is 78, they're both old, right? And so, he has to look the part. He has to be energetic, at least for the first few moments because 90 minutes is a long time to be on that stage. You don't get to feed off the energy of anybody else. You don't get to beat up on little Marco or lying Ted, there's nobody else's wife to call ugly on. It's just you and another human being. The problem also, when you're talking about staying locked in, if I was -- you know, if it's basketball, I'm like, look, Biden, stay locked in for 90 minutes. You cannot let up on this guy, you got to stay locked in. But because they're so close and because the mic's cut off, I do not believe that when the mic cuts off, Donald Trump is going to cut off. And my fear is that may pose some presentation difficulty for the president of the United States. Because it's hard as hell to communicate about Afghanistan, foreign policy, Gaza, healthcare when you have somebody yelling over here, the audience can't hear, but it sounds crazy to you. And I think that type of closeness, just aesthetically and presentation, may pose some issues for the President. KRISTEN SOLTIS-ANDERSON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Because bear in mind, remember in the last debate when he said, will you shut up, man? That was one of those moments that went really viral and made Biden look a little more vigorous, a little more -- you know, he was kind of channeling the inner thoughts of a lot of people watching. But if you can't hear what Donald Trump is saying, that he wants him to shut up, man, about, maybe that changes things. I mean, bear in mind, Donald Trump came up in the world of television. Television is a medium he understands and excels at. What will be a challenge for him, I think, is that Donald Trump does best when he gets to be in kind of celebrity Donald Trump mode, apprentice Donald Trump mode. And this is very presidential. This is very historic, much more significantly traditional. And so. it'll be curious to see how does he handle it. SELLERS: Can I ask a question to my three Republican friends for a second? UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sure. SELLERS: I'm intrigued. Can Donald Trump talk substantive policy for 90 minutes? Does he have the ability to do that? JONAH GOLDBERG, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I don't think so. I think people -- look, I think -- COLLINS: Ashley's a Democrat. ASHLEY ALLISON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I don't know. COLLINS: You need to be a Republican to answer that. GOLDBERG: Technically, I'm a conservative, but I don't really call myself a Republican anymore. Look, I think he's going to try to be really disciplined for the first 20 minutes, 25 minutes, right? And then he's going to feel like he ate his spinach. And now he gets to have his dessert and start and he's going to -- look, I mean, the way I think about this is he's never been able to stay on script unless he's actually reading a script, right? He's also -- you know, historically, the first debates are always go badly for incumbent presidents because they spent four years as a president and no one's -- everyone's saying yes to them and blah-blah- blah-blah. Donald Trump has spent four years at Mar-a-Lago surrounded by an entourage that tells him everything he says is brilliant. So he hasn't been criticized from eight feet away in the last four years, the last eight years, except on a debate. So I think they're both eminently rattleable. You know, you can just -- you can get under their skin. [17:10:06] The problem is, to Kristen's point is how does it look when Joe Biden or Donald Trump perfectly legitimately says off camera, will you shut up? And no one has any idea why you're saying it. ALLISON: I think that's an important part, though. It's not just the audio, it's a visual debate. The split screen tonight is going to be important. GOLDBERG: Yes. SELLERS: Yes. ALLISON: If you're a candidate talking to a television screen, like, who do you think is going to -- don't make that a meme, you all. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's already. ALLISON: But if that's how you're talking, it will look strange to the American public. So, when people break the rules, I think it's important to be able to show that picture. COLLINS: Because that was one of -- when you go back and rewatch the debates, as I dedicated my life to doing this week, you see that oftentimes Biden would look directly at the camera. When Trump was speaking a lot and chattering in his ear, he would just look directly at the camera and say, OK, it doesn't matter about my family or his family, what matters is your family. And it seemed to be an effective method. But Shermichael, let me ask you about something we're just learning, which is Mary Trump, who is Donald Trump's niece, she is an estranged niece. She has by no means been a fan of history, wrote a book incredibly critical of him. We've just learned that she is going to be here in this spin room tonight, not on behalf of the Trump family, but she is joining the Biden campaign as a surrogate. I don't think Donald Trump will be surprised to know that she's not supporting him. But what do you make of the fact that she's coming out here and she's saying in a quote tonight that CNN just obtaining, she's in Atlanta to remind everyone who Donald Trump is as a person and how he would rule as a president, because the stakes are far too high, Mary Trump says, for us to get this wrong. And she says that he can't be allowed near the levers of power again. SHERMICHAEL SINGLETON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I don't think it's going to matter for Republican voters. And I would go as far as to say that some of Trump supporters would frankly see it as a betrayal. I mean, this is a niece, you're going against your own family member whether you like him or not. Perhaps this is something that you should deal with behind closed doors. But I wanted to say something about President Biden. This is, I think, one of his greatest strengths and assets. The president has a very, very unique ability to showcase compassion during turbulent and uncertain times. We've talked a lot about the economic conditions. We've talked a lot about immigration. And I think President Biden could have an opportunity, if he so chooses, to talk directly to the American people about understanding where they are. I think he has an opportunity to say, because of my age, yes, I've slowed down a little bit, but I've seen a whole lot of things. I do understand what it takes to sort of rebuild when things are sort of faulty and shaky. I think he has an opportunity to articulate to the American people, I may not be here to see what the future is going to look like in the next 20 years, but I can help be a part of the process to guide the nation to that future. That can be a very, very powerful moment for the president. And I think that would resonate deeply with a lot of independent voters and a lot of moderate Republicans. COLLINS: Yes, we'll see what it looks like. Obviously, they'll be watching closely tonight at one of the earliest debates we've also -- SINGLETON: Yes. ALLISON: Yes. COLLINS: -- ever seen. SELLERS: Yes. COLLINS: That's remarkable in and of itself. Everyone, stand by because we are counting down to this presidential debate here on CNN. President has arrived here in Atlanta. We are waiting for former President Donald Trump and his plane to touch down any moment. We'll be tracking all of this live. Also, the key issues that Biden and Trump are going to try to capitalize on. They each have different priorities that they want to make sure voters hear them talk about on that stage that you're seeing right here. We'll talk about that after a quick break. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) [17:17:28] BLITZER: Any moment now we're expecting Donald Trump to arrive at Atlanta's Hartsfield Jackson International Airport for tonight's main event. President Biden has already landed. CNN's Kristen Holmes is joining us right now. Kristen, this is a big moment just ahead of tonight's debate. Set the scene from where you are. KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Wolf. So what we expect from Donald Trump is he's going to land at the airport, he'll be greeted by supporters, and then he'll come straight here to the debate site where his team has a room set up. That's where he's going to stay until the debate get acclimated with the setup, with the podiums, with this area, and also have some time to talk to his senior advisors and prepare right ahead of that debate. Now, as we have been reporting, Donald Trump has been spending the last several days in Mar-a-Lago. He is expected to have a rally tomorrow in Virginia. But what he has been focused on is conversations. That is how Donald Trump has done his debate prep. While his team has said they don't use the word preparation when it comes to Donald Trump, it is very clear that they are taking this debate very seriously. Jason Miller, one of Donald Trump's closest allies, has been running point on this debate preparation. And that means setting up, arranging and sitting in on various policy sessions, from everything -- from how to answer questions on abortion to how to answer questions on democracy, particularly Donald Trump's role in January 6, what he has said since then, including what he has said about pardoning individuals who are involved in the insurrection on that day. Now, we've also learned from these senior advisers that they have drilled down to Donald Trump that the most important thing that he can do is focus on key issues for voters. They've identified those issues, particularly through polling as the economy, particularly inflation, as immigration, as crime rates. These are things they think will resonate with voters. And Donald Trump has a message that he wants to send. And that message is, were you better off under my administration, particularly when it comes to the economy, or are you better off now? And that really goes to the heart of what we know tonight to be a historic moment, because we have never before seen a former U.S. president on the stage with a current us president. And both of these teams are seeking to contrast the administrations that they have already had, their records that they believe that they have already proven. Now, of course, the outlying factor here is who Donald Trump is at his core. We know that President Biden is planning attacks on Donald Trump. And the question is whether or not Trump reciprocates those. We talk about what we see at these rallies, when he has these crowds of supporters, he really doubles down on nasty personal attacks against not only Biden, but his family. Will we see that tonight? [17:20:12] Spoken to a number of allies and donors in particular who say they don't want to see that. They don't want this to get into mudslinging. They think that Donald Trump will actually be able to appeal to the voters. He needs to appeal to by talking about messaging. When we talk about those voters he needs to appeal to, you're talking about the number of voters in the middle who are likely to determine this election. That's what they want to see from Donald Trump when he takes the stage tonight. BLITZER: We'll see what happens. Kristen Holmes reporting for us. Kristen, will be checking back with you frequently to be sure. Any moment now, we expect Donald Trump's plane to be wheels down here in Atlanta. We're going to bring that to you. Plus, the messages we're hearing right now from close supporters of President Biden and former President Trump in the hours before tonight's debate. That's also coming up. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) COLLINS: You are looking live right now as Donald Trump's plane has just landed here in Atlanta, Georgia. There it is taxiing down the runway. That comes after we saw President Biden land not too long ago. He's waiting at a nearby hotel until he makes his way to the debate hall where he is going to be meeting with, of course, his top advisors as he's preparing for this debate. He's been at Camp David for several days. For president, Donald Trump has also been somewhere you don't typically find him this time of year at his Mar-a-Lago club in Palm Beach, Florida. Normally, he's at his New Jersey club. Reporters who covered him know well during the summer months, but he has been there because it was a more seclusionary space for him to be thinking about debate prep. He wasn't around everyone at lunches and dinners like he typically is at his clubs. It does show how differently the two of them, Shermichael, have prepared for this moment and how they've been approaching it where, you know, Joe Biden, they used -- with President Biden used an airplane hangar at Camp David, a movie theater they set up with lights and outfitted it to look similar to what the debate stage will look like tonight to really get him prepped for this. Obviously, that's how President Biden is known to prep intensively. Donald Trump takes a different tactic. He's still been doing debate prep. It hasn't been that informal based on what we've been hearing from his aides and allies. But it will maybe show up on the debate stage tonight how they've prepped for the mics, for the no audience, two things that neither of them have ever done before. SINGLETON: I mean, look, depending on the questions, it will show whether or not a candidate has a command of the issues. When I worked for Mitt Romney, it was a very thorough debate process. Newt Gingrich, a very thorough debate process. But these were two men who were interested in the nuances of policy. President Trump, I don't think, is one who's interested in the nuances of policies. And that will show when there are questions about China, when there are nuanced questions about Russia, I expect President Biden to probably do better on some of those issues. When there are more nuanced questions about monetary theories, if Biden decides to get into that about the economy, most voters may not care. But what he showcases as people watching, this is someone who I can trust to do the job, whether I agree with them on everything or not. And I think considering how close this election is going to be, Jonah keeps bringing up the very slim folks in the middle, I think those people are more astute, they're typically more educated, they do care about someone who is more nuanced and has a command of those critical issues because they want to be able to trust that you can lead the country forward in a very critical time. ALLISON: And it's doing it without notes. And I think that's -- we haven't talked about that yet. But there has been a lot of criticism for Joe Biden for always having notes and needing something to rely on because he can't remember. Tonight is a test. He will have 90 minutes where he will talk to the American people, where he will have to go from his memory about the issues. And if he gets nuanced and can really say, show a command, as you said, of the issues -- UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. ALLISON: -- that can help quell some of the concern that these voters have about Joe Biden's age. COLLINS: That's a great point. And also, Donald Trump himself uses a prompter when he's on the debate stage. ALLISON: Well, sometimes. COLLINS: He often -- he does go off prompter, which may be some of his aide -- ALLISON: Starts with a prompter. COLLINS: -- would like for him to not. There will be, obviously, no prompter for those candidates tonight. And that is a really big impact on this, that this is just the candidates and themselves and what they've rehearsed and been prepared to do, but no other assistance. And also, during the two commercial breaks, only two breaks that they'll have this whole 90 minutes stretch, Bakari, none of their advisors can come up and talk to them and say, you're doing a great job or you need to fix this. It's just them with their thoughts. SELLERS: Yes. And I think -- I mean, I think the preparation is key. And I do know for a fact, you know, just talking to my friends around Biden world, you know, how they've changed, you know, scheduling, etcetera, because of the time of day the debate is and how he's preparing for this intently, how he prepares for the day of being president. [17:25:13] And I think one of the things we're going to go back to is the presentation, because when you're talking policy and you have someone give answer that although you may disagree with, you can also juxtapose that against somebody who's spousing utter BS, right? ALLISON: Yes. SELLERS: And that may be the split screen image. Like, I don't necessarily agree with Donald Trump in this position -- I mean, excuse me, Joe Biden in this position, but I don't know what Donald Trump is even talking about. For me, I know you've been watching debates, I spent a lot of time in the old world of the 44th president of the United States and I remind people like our colleague David Axelrod, how they got there behind kicked by Mitt Romney in the first debate. It was clinical, it was surgical the way that Mitt Romney thoroughly destroyed one of the smartest men I knew because Mitt Romney was more prepared form and Mitt Romney actually put that preparation forward. Somebody who we thought Barack Obama could just go on stage and be God's gift to debate got smacked around. He didn't do it the second time, he performed better. And so I do think this preparation is going to really matter in this debate. We shall see if Donald Trump is taking this serious or not. COLLINS: Yes, both can be rusty for this. And of course, another thing, Wolf, that we're watching as Donald Trump's plane has just pulled up and landed here in Atlanta, is who gets off the plane with him? We do know the first lady, Jill Biden, will be here accompanying her husband. She is expected to join him later on stage at the end of the debate. Where -- another thing we're watching is to see which family members are accompanying Donald Trump on this trip here tonight for this historic debate, Wolf. BLITZER: We know one family member who won't be accompanying Donald Trump tonight. We're going to talk with her in just a moment. This on the cusp of tonight's debate, there's a new surrogate right now, get this, for the Biden campaign, an actual member of the Trump family. And she's joining us right now, Donald Trump's niece and frequent critic of her uncle, Mary Trump. Mary, thanks very much for joining us. You say you've witnessed your uncle's quote, and I'm quoting you now, "narcissism and cruelty your entire life." Why are you coming out for Biden right now? And why do you feel it was actually so important to say all this right before this debate tonight and show up actually here in Atlanta? MARY TRUMP, BIDEN CAMPAIGN SURROGATE: Well, first of all, Wolf, thank you so much for having me. And I just want to make it clear, I have always been a huge supporter of President Biden. And I have been saying for a long time, I believe that this is the most important election, certainly of my lifetime. And I think this is a perfect moment for me to come out publicly, not just with my support of President Biden, but to send a very clear message to the American people that we could not make a more egregious mistake than letting Donald Trump again anywhere near the levers of power. BLITZER: And by the way, Mary, we're showing a live picture of your uncle's plane, which just landed here at Hartsfield Jackson, Atlanta International Airport. We expect him to be walking off that plane momentarily. Will show our viewers when that happens. We've heard, as you probably have heard as well, supposedly, about a more subdued Donald Trump showing up tonight's debate. Given what you know about your uncle, can he keep that up for 90 minutes? TRUMP: Absolutely not. I think some of the conditions of the debate that his team agreed to will make the situation even worse for him. Having his mic muted, not having an audience, all of those play to his weaknesses. And I think it, as the debate continues, especially as President Biden shows up completely prepared to run circles around a much inferior candidate, Donald will not be able to contain himself for that long. BLITZER: We're still trying to confirm where Donald Trump's immediate family will be tonight. Mary. We're wondering about Melania, Ivanka, Jared Kushner, son-in-law, if any of them show up, what does that say to you? Do you think they, first of all, will show up? TRUMP: I have no inside knowledge of that, but I think we've seen over the last many months that they don't seem interested in supporting Donald in any active public way. That doesn't mean they won't show up. And if they do, I honestly don't think it means much. All of his relationships are transactional, and it would simply mean that they are keeping all of their options open. So, I don't make much of it at all either way. BLITZER: Do you plan to campaign with President Biden in the days, weeks, and months ahead? And what can we expect from you over this coming period? TRUMP: I am available to help the Biden campaign in any way I can. I would be honored to be of service to them in any capacity. But outside of that, I'll continue to do what I've been doing since the 20 -- before the 2020 election to speak out against Donald. He is an authoritarian want to be. He would be terrible for the future of this country and its citizens, as he's proven time and time again. And President Biden is the man for our time. And I will do everything I can to make sure as many people as possible support him as much as I do. [17:30:29] BLITZER: Mary Trump, thanks so much for joining us. TRUMP: Thank you, Wolf. BLITZER: All right, Kaitlan, we're showing our viewers, as you well know, these live pictures over at the Hartsfield Jackson Atlanta International Airport. We expect Donald Trump to be walking down those stairs momentarily. This is a huge, huge deal that's coming up at this debate tonight, and it potentially could set the stage for an eventual outcome of the actual election. It's going to be watched by tens of millions of Americans. Indeed, people all over the world will be watching as well, Kaitlan? COLLINS: Yes, well, it's more eyeballs than either of these candidates have gotten probably in this entire campaign season as they have both been battling it out with relatively stable polling, as we've seen. Obviously, one thing that's different about this debate that we have emphasized is there is no audience here. So you will not see the typical, you know, huge line of surrogates and allies that are seated in the audience for these candidates, but they will have some that they are bringing with them. They will be here in the spin room after the debate to talk about their respective candidate's performance. And so that's one thing I'm watching as we see former President Trump in moments come down these stairs is who is accompanying him on this trip. Are members of his family with him? We obviously know members of his campaign that have been down with him at his Mar-a-Lago club in Florida, are going to be there with him. And they are indeed on the plane with him. They've been rehearsing and practicing as they've made their way here to Atlanta, Georgia. The other thing, Wolf, course, is the second contest that's happening tonight is the Veep stakes that is still very much playing out. We heard a few days ago Donald Trump say he does believe likely the person he is going to be on the ticket, the person is going to pick to be on the ticket with him, will be accompanying him on this trip. They'll be here in the spin room. We know Governor Doug Burgum of North Dakota, Senator J.D. Vance of Ohio, Senator Marco Rubio of Florida, three names that have been mentioned repeatedly in the last several days are expected to be here to spin on Donald Trump's behalf. No word yet of if he's actually selected one of them to be his running mate, though, Wolf. So all of this is obviously, we'll be watching the main show, the two of them on stage tonight. But all of this is also a key part of the campaign as well. BLITZER: I want to know, Kaitlan, you've covered Trump now for the past several years and you've watched him closely. Were you surprised that his niece, Mary Trump, has now not only endorsed Biden, but has actually shown up here at this debate to speak out so aggressively in favor of Biden's election? COLLINS: And, Wolf, I remember when Mary Trump first came public with her criticism of her uncle. You can hear a crowd at the airport right now chanting as Donald Trump is about to get off his plane, I should note. But, but Mary Trump came out and she was -- she eviscerated Trump. She was everywhere. She was on cable news. She was doing interviews. And those were questions we posed to Donald Trump when he was in the White House as President Trump, to his aides, because it was remarkable to see a member of his family come out and be so heavily critical of him. Obviously, Mary Trump has continued to do so. She has written books about it, as have other people in his orbit, and talked about this. And I do think that's another part of this that could come up tonight is when you see Donald Trump and his aides descend these stairs. He also has a slew of former advisers, cabinet officials, his own vice president who served with him, Mike Pence, ran against him for the GOP nomination and have criticized him and said he should not be back inside the White House. That's another thing we could see President Biden bring up on the debate stage tonight, Wolf, because he's used it in campaign ads against Donald Trump, that those who around him and are closest to him. And as you just interviewed Mary, Wolf, there in that fascinating moment that have now since criticized him and said he shouldn't be back in the White House. BLITZER: And I'm wondering, Kaitlan, give me your thoughts when he walks down these stairs. He has now landed. He's at the Atlanta airport. He's going to walk down a small crowd of Trump supporters, as you know, has gathered at the airport on the tarmac over there. Do you think the former president is actually going to go over and talk to these people a little bit? Do you think he's going to make a statement to the media which are there, or you think he's just going to get into the car and drive off? COLLINS: Yes, we may see some retail politics, Wolf. I mean, we saw that when President Biden landed here earlier. He made an unexpected pit stop. He greeted some supporters of his before then making his way over to the hotel, where, of course, he was waiting and hanging out until he makes his way over here to the debate hall. Donald Trump, often when he gets off of his plane, whether it's at a rally or even when he was inside the White House and he was pulling up in White House events and there would be a crowd gathered. [17:35:04] They greet local officials typically when they get off the plane, and then they go and greet their supporters. One thing I should note, Wolf, is you saw the current mayor of Atlanta and the previous mayor, Keisha Lance Bottoms, who is now working as a surrogate for the Biden campaign, greeting President Biden when he got off Air Force One. The governor here, Governor Brian Kemp, that you just interviewed in the last hour, Wolf, is not expected to be there greeting former President Trump. They haven't spoken in quite some time ever since they had an incredibly contentious relationship and a major fracture when Kemp didn't do what Trump wanted to do, wanted him to do to try to help overturn the election results here in the state of Georgia. So that's another factor as you're looking at Trump arriving here in Georgia. You know, it was just a little over a year ago that Donald Trump was here when he was indicted in the Georgia election interference case, had his mugshot taken. That's about 3 miles from where I'm sitting right now. We were here covering it all. So there are just so many layers to this arrival here, Wolf, to seeing Donald Trump as he is preparing to come here to debate Joe Biden on stage in just a few hours from now. BLITZER: Kaitlan, I want you to stand by. I want to bring in right now one of Donald Trump's vice presidential contenders, a Republican congressman from Florida, Byron Donalds. Thanks so much, Congressman, for joining us. I know you've arrived. You support Trump big time. What does a win for him look like tonight? REP. BYRON DONALDS (R-FL): Well, Wolf, is good to be with you. I will tell you, success tonight is creating that direct contrast between the terrible agenda of Joe Biden and a successful agenda when Donald Trump was president of the United States. You have two clear contrasts in the way this country should go. That would be success tonight. BLITZER: We're seeing the former president getting off the plane right now. He's about to walk down those stairs, but he's waving to a group of supporters who have gathered there on the tarmac. I'm curious to see if he's actually going to go over there and speak with them, shake some hands, talk to the media a little bit. So hold on one second as we watch this unfold, Congressman. We'll discuss this and a lot more in just a moment. But let's see what he does right now as he's getting down these stairs. And let's see if he walks over and sees some of these supporters or goes right to the car, to the limo and heads off to the debate. He's going to the car. He's not going to go to the supporters. He's got his van right there. So, Congressman, what do you think? What are your expectations for tonight? DONALDS: I think Donald Trump's going to be very clear. He's going to be very direct to the American people about what his agenda means in their lives on an individual basis, what it means for our country overall, what it means for our standing in the world. And you don't have to look very far to look at the stark contrast when looking at what Joe Biden and Kamala Harris have done with the United States. Our standing around the world has fallen. There are conflicts across the globe. Inflation has ravaged the purchasing power of so many Americans, especially working families and seniors on fixed incomes. And then you look at our border. The drug cartels have operational control over our southern border, trafficking millions and millions of people and deadly fentanyl into the streets of America. The picture could not be starker. Donald Trump has the prescription to save our country. BLITZER: You know, as you know, Congressman, President Biden has argued that Trump is only working for himself, not working for Americans. If Trump lists his grievances, including about his criminal trials, will he prove Biden right tonight? DONALDS: Well, actually, if anybody is going to be bringing that stuff up, Wolf, it's going to be Joe Biden, because he has nothing else to talk about. He's got nothing to run on except what he wants to bring up in terms of slights against President Trump. If you've watched the President on the campaign trail, he's been focused on the American people. Of course, he brings up what happened in lower Manhattan. His constitutional rights were violated in that courtroom. That's why everybody believes that case is going to be overturned. But at the end of the day, he has been laser focused on the American people. It's Joe Biden that wants to go back four years and talk about January 6th. It's Joe Biden who wants to talk about these threats to democracy, which, frankly, Joe Biden is the one that's bringing to our country. BLITZER: We see Trump's vehicle leaving the airport now, driving away from the plane, from the tarmac and heading to where I am right now here at the site of the presidential debate tonight. He's going to be heading over here fair very soon for this major debate tonight. As you know, Congressman, this week Trump asked some of his supporters if he should be nasty or nice during the course of this debate. What do you think? What advice would you give him? Should he be nasty or should he be nice? DONALDS: Wolf, if I'll tell you, I think he's going to be direct. He's going to present leadership. And when a time comes where he's going to have to push back, he's going to push back. And if the time comes back where he needs to push back hard, he's going to do that, too. This is not about naughty or nice. We're not talking about Christmas presents here. We're talking about leadership for the American people. He's going to demonstrate that mantle of leadership. That's what you're going to see tonight from Donald Trump. [17:40:14] BLITZER: One quick final question. Do you want to be his running mate? DONALDS: Of course. Who wouldn't? Listen, I'm in it to make sure, number one, we win this election, but number two, we save our country. We got the best country in the world. Obviously, we have our own problems. But we are the best thing going today. It is a shame what's happening to America right now. We can do better. And I'll tell you this, whether it's me or anybody on that list, it'll be a significant upgrade over Kamala Harris. BLITZER: Republican Congressman Byron Donalds of Florida, thanks so much for joining us. DONALDS: Thank you. BLITZER: And let me bring in our panelist here with me in Atlanta. And, Jamie, let's talk a little bit about this historic night right now. What should we be looking for? What are you going to be looking for once this debate actually gets underway? JAMIE GANGEL, CNN SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT: I think it's the things we don't know, the surprises. Are they going to shake hands when these two men come together? What will the energy be in the room? We've heard, you know, we know that the mics will be muted. That's not so good for Donald Trump because he likes to interrupt, but there are other ways to interrupt. I think we all remember when he debated Hillary Clinton and they were sitting on two stools and he started walking back and forth. So you don't need your voice. And Donald Trump is a showman. He will figure out how to get attention. BLITZER: Do you think they'll shake hands? GANGEL: I do think they'll shake hands. I do. BLITZER: All right. Let's see. MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: I mean, I think also it's -- just to take a step back here, Wolf. There will be so many voters tonight who have been tuned out of politics, have really not been paying attention to anything that has happened in the last four years, may have their impression about what Joe Biden has done in office, not by basically what he said, but maybe with some, a friend has said or may have not paying attention to anything that Trump has done over the past four years and may have forgotten what the Trump presidency is like. Those voters often called in political terms, low information voters, are going to be key targets, of course, for Trump and Biden. Can Trump appear presidential, alleviate the concerns of some of those voters who are concerned about his character, this bombast, things they didn't like. And for Biden, concerns about his age, his ability to do the job. Can he show them that he can stand there for 90 minutes and deliver a convincing argument about his vision for the future? That is going to be the key test for both of them, because there are going to be so many new voters who are tuning in tonight who will be weighing in for looking at him for the first time, essentially. NIA-MALIKA HENDERSON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL REPORTER: And, you know, he's got real constituency work to do. Biden does. He's here in Georgia. This is a state that he won by about 12,000 votes in 2020. It's an electorate that could be something like 30 percent African American. You saw him there on the tarmac when he arrived, you know, sort of the royalty of the black political class in Atlanta. And so he's got to figure out how to bring those voters back in higher numbers to the democratic fold, also young voters, Latino voters, and also suburban women voters. You know, Georgia is really, I think, a real test case for him. Can he do that kind of work here tonight? And I think, you know, it's obviously what Trump has to do, too. He's got some constituency work to do, too, reaching across the aisle, trying to get some of those independent voters and sort of Nikki Haley voters who are disaffected with him primarily on grounds around, you know, his morality and his character and his temperament. How does he do that tonight? PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CHIEF DOMESTIC CORRESPONDENT: And I think you can actually pull out Manu's point even further. It's not just low information voters, Wolf, or low propensity voters. I think it's voters generally, right? People have been very tuned out. People have been very apathetic. There are a lot of reasons why it has been a dramatic and really difficult last three, four, five years for a lot of people who aren't excited, at least according to polling by a significant margin, about the candidates they have and about a rematch. This is the moment. Tens of millions of people, whether they want it to or not, are going to be watching tonight because they want to know. And there's a very real possibility, particularly, there's a second debate scheduled. We don't know necessarily whether or not it's going to happen. There's a lot of kind of chatter on both sides that this may be it. This may be kind of the last, final, best moment for both of these candidates to demonstrate, not just trying to get away from perceptions that they believe are inaccurate, but also they have dramatically divergent policy positions and what they believe the next four years should look like. This is an opportunity for both of them tonight. But more importantly, it's an opportunity for voters to see these individuals, not clips of them, not snippets of them, not what they remember from four or six years ago, to see what they want to do. BLITZER: You know, Jamie, it was noticeable that when Trump got off the plane and walked down those stairs, he walked down by himself. I didn't see Melania or any other family member walking down. And when he got into that vehicle by himself. GANGEL: Yes. We've seen no family thus far. We have no reason to believe that Melania is going to be coming. He did something else when he walked down the stairs. We're replaying it now. He's looking down at those stairs very carefully when he walks. He stops. He does the fist thing. But then he's back watching every single one of those steps. We have two old men here, not just one. We've talked a lot about Joe Biden being old. Donald Trump is, too. [17:45:25] I'm hearing -- I reached out, I think, to about 20 or 25 sources, Republicans and Democrats, to ask them what they thought about tonight, particularly Biden sources. They are worried. They want, quote, a knockout punch. They want Biden to trigger Trump, to get under his skin. And they want him to talk about democracy in peril, that he's a convicted felon, twice impeached January 6th. One thing I heard from both sides, they're both nervous about the debates. I'm just going to read one last thing. One source sent me this. Remember Dan Rather's famous quotes -- quote, I feel more nervous than a long tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs. But everybody I texted, they're all watching. RAJU: Yes, yes. Look, so much of it is going to be stylistically how he responds because Biden, you know, Trump was going to lay out a number of attacks against Joe Biden, of course. Will Biden just go through a laundry list of things, responding to each charge? That is not actually what Democrats want. That's not what operatives say he should do. He should respond maybe one thing and then turn an attack back against Donald Trump. That is a much more effective debate strategy. But what you see so many times, and especially incumbent presidents, when they come in, they get very defensive right away, and they'll go back and lay out a laundry list of their accomplishments. And that is not necessarily what's going to create a debate moment because those moments oftentimes define the perception of the debates. BLITZER: And let's not forget tens and tens of millions of Americans will be watching this debate. Many of them are presumably undecided. We'll see they make up their minds and how it goes. Everybody stand by. We're just over three hours from the start of tonight's CNN presidential debate. President Biden and former President Trump are now both here in Atlanta. You saw Trump arrive just moments ago. We're back with more of our special coverage right after this. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) [17:51:33] COLLINS: Tonight, as Donald Trump is battling President Biden on the debate stage, another battle is going to be unfolding right outside the battle that is to be Donald Trump's running mate. His top vice presidential contenders like senators J.D. Vance and Marco Rubio, also North Dakota Governor Doug Burgum, they are among several potential picks who are going to be here in Atlanta to show support for him. My panel is back with me. And Bakari, it is fascinating to see one debate playing out, one contest and then another one that is going to be playing out right here in the spin room after. And I think the question is if you are seeking to be Donald Trump's vice president, you know, how do you -- how do you distinguish yourself after a debate? Obviously, television's his favorite medium. SELLERS: You know, I think that it is, it requires a certain level of being a sycophant that I don't think I'm capable of doing. It requires you setting aside most of what you've achieved or attempted to do that lane, you tried to cut out for yourself. I think the best example of that is probably somebody like Tim Scott, who is a friend of mine and who has somewhat changed, who we knew him to be throughout this process. But, you know, and it's also hard because usually when you're attempting to get a job such as this, you want to at least have some relationship and know what that person is thinking. When Kamala Harris went through the process, Gretchen Whitmer went through the process, and I can't remember who the third possible candidate was. Kamala Harris literally knew Joe Biden, knew his thought process, came up with him, knew his son, Beau. And so it was those relationships that mattered. I personally don't think, and I may be wrong, but if I were betting, I would say that Donald Trump's not going to pick any of them. I think that it's going to be a wild card. I think Donald Trump picks somebody like Ben Carson, who he has an amazing relationship with. I think he picked somebody like Sarah Huckabee Sanders, which is also somewhat of a wild card. And I think that if he was serious about winning, he'd pick Nikki Haley. The one who terrifies most democrats, though, is Marco Rubio. COLLINS: Well, obviously, fundraising is going to be a huge part of whoever it is he picks. Axios is reporting about the RNC holding a fundraiser in a watch party. The tickets are going for $10,000 per couple, $25,000 for a seat at a table with a Trump surrogate. And all that's playing out as he's also very interested in who is going to boost his ticket, maybe not with voters, but certainly at least when it comes to fundraising. SINGLETON: I mean, I look at this in two ways, Kaitlan. I think you need someone who can boost Donald Trump in the eyes of some swing voters who may not, maybe skeptical of him, maybe they're not comfortable voting for him, but with the right person, who's moderate, the right temperament, they could say, OK, I'll vote for him. I think that's why he chose Mike Pence, not only because of the evangelicals, but Pence did, for a lot of conservatives, bring a level of calm to Trump's chaos. With that said, I do think you also want someone who can raise a lot of money and donors who don't like Trump, who are skeptical of Trump, who are slow to come on board, would probably be more comfortable with someone like a Rubio, with someone like a Dr. Carson. And so I think Trump has to be careful with whomever he chooses. COLLINS: I mean, you mentioned Mike Pence. It is notable, Mike, what happened to Mike Pence, which we're all going to call that. It doesn't seem to give any of these candidates pause. I've spoken with at least Senator J.D. Vance about that, and he was, he downplayed what happened to Mike Pence on January -- SOLTIS-ANDERSON: Well, and the Mike Pence experience has made Donald Trump say that loyalty is one of the most important things to him. And that's why I think when you're looking at the boxes that these folks have to check in the great Apprentice vice presidential edition, that we're going to watch unfold. Loyalty, the ability to be a fighter, and somebody who looks good on T.V., somebody who fills the role, who looks the part, I think that's who he's going to be looking for. [17:55:10] So that could mean somebody like a Doug Burgum who comes to the table with a great deal of business success. We know Donald Trump thinks that's very important. The state of North Dakota has actually been doing great. He has an interesting record to run on there. He would be a steadying hand in addition to the fact that, you know, he, again, he's kind of this alternate universe Mitt Romney type character now. But does that hurt him, though? Is he going to be as aggressive out there as somebody like a J.D. Vance or an Elise Stefanik who has been known for going on T.V. and being more of that kind of pit bull in his corner? ALLISON: You know what crazy is that in none of that, was it that they could be the president of the United States. Donald Trump is 78 years old and whoever is his presidential pick could become president. And that's not a part of the conversation, which is, I think, hypocritical in the Republican Party. COLLINS: We are getting closer. We got to stand by, take a quick break. I do want to hear everyone's thoughts on the Veep stakes as we will see them here behind us in this room as we are getting even closer to the presidential debate tonight. Up next, the messages that we are hearing from both campaigns, those final messages well ahead of the face off. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) CNN Live Event / Special Aired June 27, 2024 - 18:00 ET THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED. [18:00:00] WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: This is debate night in America. Right now, we're closing in on the first ever faceoff between a current and former president of the United States. Joe Biden and Donald Trump now here in Atlanta after touching down just a short time ago as they ready themselves for a truly historic CNN presidential debate. Welcome to our viewers here in the United States and around the world. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Atlanta. KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN HOST: -- candidates will find themselves, preparations are now underway for the earliest general election debate that we've ever seen in U.S. history. It's a rare chance for both candidates to get to speak directly to voters and their concerns and also maybe land some attacks that could reset or at least shake up this race that has been relatively stable so far. This hour, we are going to take you inside the campaigns as we are counting down to this unprecedented event. You are watching Debate Night Here in America. BLITZER: First up this hour, President Biden's plans to take on former President Trump tonight on the debate stage. CNN's M.J. Lee is gathering some new information for us right now. What are you learning, M.J.? Well, Wolf, President Biden is here in Atlanta. We are waiting for him to make his way over here to the CNN studios. You know, we've been talking so much over the last week about the debate preparations at Camp David, but we should also talk a little bit about just how closely the Biden team over the last few days has been watching the Trump team and everything that they have been saying about their own preparations. They've certainly taken note of the fact that the former president and allies of his have been talking about how little time that he is actually spending on debate prep, how there haven't even been formal debate prep sessions. And advisers have told us that they basically don't buy that argument, that they actually think that the former president has been doing a lot more debate prep than he has been letting on and that this could end up resulting in the president being more disciplined and more on message than some people might actually expect. They're also very keenly aware of the abrupt shift in tone that we have seen from President Trump and others close to him about the expectation setting for President Biden. You know, for months, the Trump team has been attacking President Biden for being physically not all there, mentally not all there. Can he even stand on the debate stage for 90 minutes? And they're aware, I think, the Biden team, that in some ways, the Trump team has helped to lower the bar for him. But, of course, they are very much hoping tonight that all of the intensive debate preparations will really pay off and that he will do more than just clear the bar. BLITZER: And, M.J., we heard directly from the first lady earlier this afternoon. What did she say about tonight's debate? M.J. LEE, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's right, Wolf. I mean, she will, of course, be the biggest cheerleader for President Biden tonight, and she will be one of the family members that will be joining him at the debate. We heard her earlier basically asking Americans and asking viewers to, yes, pay attention to the policy, pay attention to the substance, but also pay attention to the person that her husband is. Take a listen. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) JILL BIDEN, U.S. FIRST LADY: I want you tonight, when you see them both debating, I want you to hear Joe's words, but most of all, I want you to listen to his heart. Because what you're going to hear is how much Joe cares about Americans. (END VIDEO CLIP) LEE: And we know, Wolf, that the Biden team preparations at Camp David have included getting the president ready for potential attacks and insults against the members of the president's family. Of course, I should remind everyone that still very fresh for the Biden family is the news from earlier this month that the president's son, Hunter Biden, was convicted on three felony gun charges. Certainly, all of this just gets to the broader point that the Biden team has been trying to prepare for anything and everything that could be thrown the president's way tonight. BLITZER: We'll see if Trump throws any of that his way. We'll be watching very closely. M.J. Lee, thank you very much. I also want to check in with CNN's Kristen Holmes right now. She's covering the Trump campaign for us. Kristen, how is the former president preparing with less than, what, three hours to go until this debate? [18:05:00] KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Donald Trump just landed in Atlanta. He and his team, he was surrounded by some of his top advisers, Chris LaCivita, Susie Wiles, Jason Miller, who has been running point on the debate. They headed into the motorcade and they should be here at the debate site any minute. Now, in terms of what they're doing to prepare, we are told they're going directly into the room that is designated for Trump and his team. They'll continue to watch the debate coverage, the lead-up, and they will maintain conversations about what to expect later tonight. According to one aid, it is now all on the former president's shoulders. There's not much else that they believe that they can do to drill into him ahead of this debate course, as we know from these senior advisers, they have spent an enormous amount of time focusing on things like immigration, like crime, like the economy and particularly inflation. They are hoping that Donald Trump will use that messaging when he takes the stage. It was interesting to hear M.J. talking there about Jill and what a supporter and cheerleader that she has been for President Joe Biden. Notably, as he departed his plane that he'd flown up on from Florida, there was one person missing, Melania Trump, the former first lady. Now, it's not that surprising when you think about the fact that in the entire time that Donald Trump has been running for president, which he announced back in 2022, that she has only appeared at one single campaign event, and that was the launch event at her Mar-a-Lago home. However, this is a significant moment. If you talk to anyone around former President Donald Trump, they will tell you that he understands how significant this moment and how the gravity of the time that we are in. So, interesting, of course, to see the contrast between Jill Biden and Melania Trump. BLITZER: Kristen Holmes reporting for us, Kristen, thank you very much. Joining us now, Ambassador Susan Rice, a former domestic policy adviser for President Biden, she also served as national security adviser under President Obama. She was the U.S. ambassador to the United Nations as well. Ambassador, thank you so much for joining us. As you probably have heard, Trump will likely argue tonight that under President Biden, two wars broke out in Ukraine, as well as Israel and Hamas in Gaza. And the border, the U.S. border with Mexico is a mess. That's what we will hear, presumably, from former President Trump. How do you think President Biden can best counter those arguments? SUSAN RICE, FORMER OBAMA NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: Well, good to be with you, Wolf. President Biden will make the broad case that America's standing in the world is much stronger than it's been in a long time, and certainly much stronger than it was under Donald Trump. The reality is that NATO is expanded. We have two additional countries. We have more cohesion and strength in our alliances, both in Europe and in Asia, than ever before. And the United States is back and you hear our allies every day say how grateful they are to have President Biden as their partner. Yes, the world is a dangerous place. Much of that is longstanding, but you want, when the world is a dangerous place, somebody who is steady, somebody who's committed to the United States and its interests rather than one's personal interests rather than somebody who is erratic, who embraces dictators, who gives Vladimir Putin the sort of praise and encouragement to go and do what the hell he wants to NATO countries. We need strong American leadership, and that's what Joe Biden has provided, and that's what he's going to continue to provide when he's re-elected. BLITZER: As you know, Ambassador Rice, some younger Democrats in critical swing battleground states, like Michigan, for example, have been very vocal about their disagreement with President Biden over his support for Israel in the war against Hamas in Gaza. Should President Biden attempt to win back their votes tonight? And if so, how? RICE: Well, President Biden is going to do what he has been doing, which is to make it clear that across the board, whether you're talking about foreign policy or domestic policy, he's fighting for American interests and for the interests of working families. He is committed to doing all he can to lower costs for American families. And we see great progress in health care costs coming down and prescription drug costs coming down. He's working to preserve the freedoms that Americans hold dear, from our voting rights to the ability of women to control what happens to their own bodies. And on the international stage, yes, he's been clear that we will stand with our ally, Israel, but he's also been clear that we will that it is vitally important that this war come to an end, that it is time for a ceasefire, that there be adequate and much increased humanitarian assistance, the return of the hostages, and that the three-point -- three-phase plan that the president laid out, that the Israelis proposed to Hamas, needs to be the basis moving forward. [18:10:09] And it's now incumbent upon Hamas to accept that plan and the Israelis to embrace what they have committed to and put forward on the table. That is what is essential, Wolf, if we're to see this horrific war come to an end, Hamas degraded and defeated, as it must be, and the Palestinian people having the opportunity to chart a future that they deserve as well. BLITZER: As you know, Ambassador Rice, Trump has often said, and he says it all the time, that he had a better relationship with some of the dictators out there, such as Vladimir Putin or Kim Jong-un, and that they would listen to him if he were president once again. What should President Biden's response to that argument, I suspect we will hear that from Trump later tonight, what should Biden's response be? RICE: Well, if you want to be buddies with Kim Jong-un and Vladimir Putin, that is not the way to serve American interests. Vladimir Putin has indicated and demonstrated time and time again that his ambition is to not just take Ukraine, and as he tried to take Georgia years ago, and not just to take Crimea, but to take all of Ukraine and then move into Europe and NATO territory. And the western alliance is united and clear that we cannot allow that to happen. We cannot coddle Putin. We cannot compromise with Putin. We cannot give Putin the green light that Donald Trump has given him to do whatever the hell he wants with NATO. That is reckless and dangerous. And it's characteristic of the kinds of erratic leadership that we've seen so much out of Donald Trump that we just cannot afford. BLITZER: Ambassador Susan Rice, thanks so much for joining us. RICE: Thanks for having me, Wolf. BLITZER: And up next, how the battle over abortion in America could play a big role, potentially, in tonight's debate. Stay with us. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) [18:16:24] COLLINS: Tonight's debate is coming just as the Supreme Court today voted to allow emergency abortions in Idaho for now when a pregnant patient's health is at serious risk. Of course, we have looked at abortion ban there. Idaho has one of the nation's strictest abortion bans in the United States. This ruling, though, is temporary. It leaves a lot of unanswered questions as the case is now going to go back and work its way through the lower courts. Here to talk about all of this and the dynamics that decision has on the debate stage tonight is Ralph Reed, who is the chairman of the Faith and Freedom Coalition, where we just saw former President Trump speaking over the weekend. And it's great to have you because I just -- from your perspective, you know, we've been talking from the political aspect of what voters want to see, what they want to see. When it comes to evangelicals and seeing Donald Trump on that debate stage tonight, do you want to see him call for a national abortion ban? What are you hoping? He says about that on stage. RALPH REED, FOUNDER, FAITH AND FREEDOM COALITION: Well, we support both federal and state protection for the innocent unborn. I mean, our position is that an unborn child is a member of the human family, and it has a right to life that cannot and should not be infringed. We also thank, Kaitlan, and this is in the Republican Party platform, and has been for over 40 years, that an unborn child is protected under the 14th Amendment's guarantee that no person can be denied or infringed life or liberty without due process of law. That's our position. It's in the party platform. Now, we've had the Dobbs decision. Two years ago, almost, well, this week. COLLINS: This week. REED: So, that's changed everything, all right? And what the president has said, meaning Trump, what President Trump has said is, it was the liberals who federalized this. Roe federalized this. For most of American history, it was decided by the states. And by the Dobbs decision, states now have a right to do that again. And that's his position. I have no problem with that position, because I think the reality is, whether you're pro-choice or you're pro-life, that's where the action is. The pro-choice side is qualifying these initiatives and referendums and trying to get their way. We are passing pro-life bills. We've done it in 24 states. We're going to keep going. Kaitlan, it's called democracy. That's what democracy looks like. COLLINS: Saying the voters in each state should make a decision? REED: Right. COLLINS: But we've seen how Democrats have talked about this and President Biden himself has talked about it a lot. And they've said if Donald Trump is reelected, he will sign a federal abortion ban into law because people who support him want to see that. But is that something that you believe is something he should call for on the debate stage? REED: Well, it's something that we clearly support. I mean, as I said -- COLLINS: So, you would like to see him? REED: We'd like to see protection of the unborn at the federal level and the state level. And we don't want to see states like California, Illinois, New York pass laws, and this is Joe Biden's position. Let's be clear about this. He supports a federal bill that would allow abortion on demand for any reason at any stage of pregnancy, including the eighth or ninth month, including after the child can feel pain, including after the child can survive outside the womb. Now, there was a time, Kaitlan, when Democrats called that infanticide. People like Daniel Patrick Moynihan called it infanticide. He also wants to use tax dollars to pay for those abortions under Medicaid. So, his position is the radical and extreme position. COLLINS: I know you don't agree with him at all. I don't expect you to. But I will note that that eight and nine month abortions are incredibly rare. I mean, we just spoke to Kate Cox about this, who had to leave Texas to go get an abortion. And she wanted to go to her family. She talked about how painful it actually was for her to have an abortion when she did, but she had a fetal anomaly that was going to have her baby survived maybe a week after it was born. [18:20:08] And so when you look at this, and we talk about the blowback politically for some Republicans and certain ballot measures that have been on the ballot after Roe v. Wade was overturned, that's been a difficult line for former President Trump to walk and how he talks about that because there are some states, my home state of Alabama, that don't have a lot of exceptions. Some of them have no exceptions, whatsoever. Some don't have it for incest, only for the life of the mother. Politically, though, aren't you worried there's going to be blowback for a ticket for a Republican candidate this fall because of those? REED: No, I'm really not. Because the president has made it abundantly clear he takes the same position Ronald Reagan took, which is the three exceptions of rape, incest, and life of the mother. COLLINS: But what about states that don't have those? And he says it should be up to the states. How do you square that? REED: Well, he has his position, but he also said this is what democracy looks like. And I'm not worried about the initiatives and referendums, and I'll tell you why. You go back, Kaitlan, and look at the exit polling in Ohio, where they won what I think is a pyrrhic victory, I think ultimately will succeed in passing tougher pro-life restrictions in Ohio, but they won a ballot initiative. COLLINS: Yes, it was quite surprising. REED: And the exit polling shows that one out of every four Trump voters voted for the initiative. In Kansas, it was even higher than that. So, let me tell you what's getting ready to happen. They're qualifying initiatives in Arizona, Nevada, and Florida at a minimum. They're trying to get these on the ballot. They're going to be turning out Trump voters who tend to be more pro-choice than, say, I am or my organization. They're going to vote for the initiative, and then they're going to vote for Donald Trump. It's not going to help Joe Biden at all. And let me tell you what else is going to happen. COLLINS: You think they'll come out to vote, but they'll still vote for Donald Trump, but they'll still vote for the measure, but they'll also vote for Donald Trump? REED: The polling is clear on it. And not only that, Kaitlan, but Trump will be able to say when he goes into those states, I'm the one who gave you the right to vote on this. He wants to deny you the right to vote on this. He's the one who wants to pass a federal, radical, and extreme pro-abortion law that would repeal all state restrictions and set it at the federal level. So, you won't get to vote on it. COLLINS: Yes, he wants to codify the federal right to an abortion, which was overturned by the Supreme Court. We'll see how these candidates talk about it. It's one of the issues that's nearly guaranteed to come up on stage tonight. Ralph Reed, thank you for joining us. REED: Thank you, Kaitlan. COLLINS: Great to have you. And also coming up, we're going to get more analysis from our top political reporters. We're now in the final moments before Donald Trump and Joe Biden will meet for the first time in four years. This is Debate Night here in America. Stay tuned (COMMERCIAL BREAK) [18:27:09] BLITZER: All right. Take a look at this new video where we're getting of Trump's motorcade arriving here at the CNN debate site. This now just a few hours before our debate gets underway. Our political experts are joining me right now with more analysis, and, Nia, let me start with you. This race has been stubbornly close for months and months and months. Our latest CNN poll of polls, I'll put it up on the screen. You can see Trump's at 49 percent, Biden 47 percent among likely voters out there. What needs to happen tonight to change that? NIA-MALIKA HENDERSON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Listen, they've got to have breakout moments and they've got to address their weaknesses. The primary weakness that Biden has is about age, but it is also about questions around the economy, questions around immigration and questions around crime. And you know that Donald Trump is going to go hard at that. The questions that Donald Trump has to answer and address have to do with his character, his moral standing, January 6th, his authoritarian tendencies. He's got to figure out a way to get voters who were skeptical of him along those lines to come back to him in so many ways, the voters who left him in 2020, those sort of Trump to Biden voters. So, he's got to figure that out. We'll see. And I think whoever has a breakout moment, can they capitalize on that in the weeks following the debate, right? Because we're going to have a, you know, 90-minute debate tonight and people are going to mostly ingest this through clips and analysis that come after, right? And it's going to be moments. So, they've got to figure out a way to not only have breakout moments, but then to capitalize on that going forward. BLITZER: Both campaigns will be spending a lot of money with advertisements of highlights as they see him during the course of this debate. Jamie, I want to play for you and our viewers, some of Biden's social media video that's coming out right now underscoring a key contrast that's going on. Listen to this. Watch this. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Dictator, tyrant. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Dangerous. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Threat to democracy. MIKE PENCE, FORMER U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: I cannot in good conscience endorse Donald Trump. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We don't take an oath to a king or queen or a tyrant or a dictator, and we don't take an oath to a wannabe dictator. ALYSSA FARAH GRIFFIN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: We worked with him. We knew him. This man is unfit to be president. A second term would be more dangerous than a first. JOHN BOLTON, FORMER NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: Xi Jinping and Vladimir Putin, Kim Jong-un, they're fully prepared to take advantage of him. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I do regard him as a threat to democracy. (END VIDEO CLIP) BLITZER: These are all some of Trump's former advisers, and this is a Biden campaign video. JAMIE GANGEL, CNN SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT: Right. So, the question is, to Nia's point, does this resonate? Does it keep getting played? And does it appeal just to Biden voters, or will it appeal to undecided voters? We've talked a lot about the double haters, people who don't want Trump or Biden. The question is, will that change someone's mind? [18:30:00] There is no question that Trump's behavior is baked in. It's become normalized. So, I think a big question for Joe Biden is, how does he persuade people that they need to remember that and that's what's coming, that it's not overstating it? BLITZER: At the same time, Manu, the Trump campaign released an ad making fun of Biden's age and his fitness. I'm going to play a clip for you. Watch this. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When you think about the Joe Biden you saw in the debate, ask yourself a question, do you think the guy who was defeated by the stairs, got taken down by his bike, lost a fight with his jacket, and regularly gets lost, makes it four more years in the White House? And you know who's waiting behind him, right? Vote Joe Biden today, get Kamala Harris tomorrow. (END VIDEO CLIP) BLITZER: You think we're going to hear and see more of that from Trump today? MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, I mean, that is a brutal ad. I'm sure we're going to see a lot more of that along the airwaves over the next couple of several weeks. They're basically suggesting that Biden will not survive a second term at office. That is how this debate is going. But it really also shows that Trump has been -- the expectation setting. They're saying that Joe Biden can't string two sentences together, yet at the same time also calling him an effective debater. That is going to affect the perception of how Joe Biden ultimately does, and perhaps Joe Biden could benefit from that. Actually, more voters, according to polls, believe that Trump will do better tonight than Biden. So, if Biden exceeds those expectations, perhaps a lot of voters will think that he is capable of serving another four years. So, this expectation setting can cut both ways against Trump. GANGEL: Can I just quickly add, that also has a dog whistle about Kamala Harris in it. You can't get past it. And also the production value, that music, that is social media. That is TikTok. That is from Trump's perspective, a brilliant, brutal, devastating but a brilliant ad for going viral on social media. HENDERSON: That's right, yes. And I think you're going to see more of that. So, the Kamala Harris point, I think it's going to land with a certain segment of voters, this dog whistle that's very, very loud, but there are voters who really, really like Kamala Harris, right, and would love to see her be president. In some of these polls early on, she has high approval ratings then Joe Biden. So, it's sort of cut It's both ways. If you're a young voter, if you're an African-American voter, if you're a woman voter, maybe you say, huh, Kamala Harris wouldn't be so bad. BLITZER: What do you think, Phil? PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF DOMESTIC CORRESPONDENT: What I think is interesting about it is I don't think the people that they're targeting and the things you hear from both people that are tied to the campaign and advisers, Republicans on the outside as well saying, talk about the economy, talk about immigration, talk about crime. Why? Like I get it. And I think Jamie's point is actually critical here. The Trump operation from a social media perspective and their ability to use influencers, when we look at the subgroups that Joe Biden's coalition is lagging in right now, young voters is one of those coalitions. I don't know if these are the reasons why, but these are things that go viral on the places where people get their news. And so I think there's an effectiveness in that sense. But I also don't think that for the seven states and 58,000 people that are going to decide, at least based on the 2020 numbers, who's going to win this election. When you talk to people around him, that's not necessarily where they want him to go. The one thing I would say about that, though, is he's not going there. The campaign is, outside groups are, outside advisers are. And so there's some value there. I think if you look at the Biden campaign and what they're willing to say about Donald Trump, they've been much more aggressive than they were in 2020, they're much more aggressive on the types of platforms that are on, what they're saying, what they're willing to say, Joe Biden is not going to do that. A, it's not who he is and he wouldn't do it to begin with, but B, they have one level of separation. I think that's why you're seeing the way it's playing out. BLITZER: Important points. All right, everybody stand by. We have a lot more to discuss. Trump and Biden are already taking swipes at one another, as we just saw on social media today. Insights on how personal attacks might get tonight. We're watching all of this as we watch Debate Night in America. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) [18:38:23] COLLINS: We are now just about two hours away from CNN's presidential debate here. I have someone here who knows firsthand what it's like to debate former President Donald Trump. Ben Carson, did so in 2016, then became one of Trump's closest allies and also one of his cabinet secretaries. The former housing and urban development secretary and retired neurosurgeon joins me now. So, Dr. Carson, it's great to have you here because you do have experience debating Donald Trump. You know what it's like to be up there on the stage with him. Everyone remembers the Republican primary in 2016. In the 2020 debate, the first one against President Biden, former President Trump became quite personal, he went after his family. I wonder if you think when you see Donald Trump on that stage tonight, you want to see him stay away from those personal attacks when he's debating Joe Biden. DR. BEN CARSON, FORMER HUD SECRETARY: There's so many good things that he can talk about in terms of the economy during his administration crime during his administration, the border during his administration, interest rates, it was just a lot of good things to talk about. So, I don't think it'll be necessary to dwell upon those things. COLLINS: So, you do believe it'd be more helpful if he talked more about the issues than, say, something that's more personal, President Biden's son, Hunter Biden, for example? CARSON: Yes, I'm hopeful that they both will take advantage of this historic situation, in which we have the two administrations juxtaposed to each other. You don't have to think back many years. And you can compare the policies and see where they've taken us. [18:40:00] COLLINS: Yes. And obviously everyone remembers when you were on stage, when you were competing with him in the Republican primary, I mean, he even lobbed personal attacks against you as well. On the issues here, obviously abortion is expected to be a major one. This is the first time we've had a presidential debate since the Supreme Court overturned Roe versus Wade. Obviously, we saw that major decision from the Supreme Court today allowing those emergency abortions in Idaho. When it comes to how Trump is talking about abortion, though, and the three Supreme Court justices that he put on the court, you know, he often says he's proud of them, but then sometimes distances himself from the decision to overturn Roe versus Wade. Do you think he'll take credit for that tonight? What is that going to look like on that debate stage? CARSON: Well, obviously, we'll have to wait and see. But you know, what he has done is try to bring the situation back to the state level, to the level of the people and their representatives, which I think is what the intention was of our founders, rather than having mandates proclaimed nationally. So, I think that'll be good. I suspect he will also pivot to the area of extremism, because there are some people who advocate abortion right up until birth. And as a pediatric neurosurgeon who operated on lots of premature babies, I can tell you, you know, 25, 26, 27-week gestation baby, they feel pain. And when you reach into the uterus and pull them apart, they feel that. And I think we need to help people to understand what's actually going on and come to reasonable conclusions. And that's why it's better at the state level, because you can talk with the representatives and with the people who fashion the laws. COLLINS: Yes. And we've obviously seen other states that are extreme in the other direction where there are no exceptions for rape or incest, for example. Obviously, we do know that will be a major topic tonight. Dr. Ben Carson, thank you for joining us on what we do expect to see on the debate stage. CARSON: A pleasure. Thank you so much. COLLINS: And my panel is back here with me in the spin room, where all the surrogates and other people whose names are among those, including Dr. Ben Carson, potential vice presidential picks for Donald Trump. When it comes to what he wants to see on the debate stage tonight, Shermichael, he was saying that he believes there's so much for Donald Trump to talk about, whether it's his record or President Biden's, that he should stay away from the personal insults. SHERMICHAEL SINGLETON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Dr. Carson's right. I'm biased. I worked for Dr. Carson. I love Dr. Carson. But Governor Kemp said the same thing in your interview with him yesterday, that there's a lot of potential for the president to make his case to the American people on issues of the economy, immigration, and including foreign policy. I mean, I think some Americans are a bit concerned about Chinese aggressions. What will the United States' response be to China and their economic brick system and their attempts to devalue the dollar? Business leaders do care about stuff like that. So, there's an incredible opportunity to speak to the nuance of those issues and how they have implications for the American people at the lower level, all the way up to our wealthy CEOs. COLLINS: Yes, I mean, and speaking of the, the personal attacks, I mean, he once compared Dr. Ben Carson to a child molester. I mean, that is how ugly the 2016 Republican primary fight got with Donald Trump. Also, we saw, you know, the National Enquirer publishing headlines about not just Marco Rubio and Ted Cruz that has gotten a lot of attention, but also, you know, Dr. Ben Carson as well, who is now, you know, one of his top surrogates. JONAH GOLDBERG, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes. So, look, I would think about this. I think there's very little chance that Biden is going to have the ability to really energize his own base in all of this. He can reassure them, right? He can make some wavering people come home. But I don't think he's gotten him to fire up the base. You know, who has the ability to fire up the base for the Democrats? It's Donald Trump. And he could have answers tonight where he gets personal, which would make a lot of Democrats rally to Biden, be defensive of Biden. You know, as Kristen will could tell you, he has all sorts of potential landmines on answers about abortion. Abortion is an issue, is going to have coattails for Biden, not the other way around. And if they've been practicing as much as they claim, if he hasn't prepared a bunch of ways to try and get that out of Trump, then he's going to fail tonight anyway. COLLINS: And for -- you know, it's not even just abortion. It's also IVF, it's access to medication, Mifepristone. Remember, Donald Trump told TIME Magazine in April that his plan for Mifepristone would be coming out. That announcement never came. I mean, these are big questions that voters of both political strides want answers. KRISTEN SOLTIS ANDERSON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: And on the stage, he's not going to be able to wiggle out of it as easy as he may have been in past experiences. So, this is going to be a debate that I think is more about do people get reassured that Biden's all there, that Trump can be president again, those sorts of things, but that doesn't mean that no substance is going to be important. [18:45:04] And they're going to be ways that if candidates flubbed things like Donald Trump flubbing something on abortion, that that's going to turn into an ad that we are going to see over and over and over again from now until November. ASHLEY ALLISON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: It might not be a flub, but it will be hypocrisy. BAKARI SELLERS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Energy -- energy tonight to your point, energy, energy, energy. That's where we begin at 4:00. Joe Biden has to bring that energy on this stage tonight, even when he's talking about issues like abortion. COLLINS: Luckily, you have brought the energy this entire panel. Everybody has. You guys have been amazing. SELLERS: What I'm here for. I'm going to get the tequila out and we want to watch a good debate. COLLINS: No tequila will be had here. Ahead, though, the team Biden -- we're going to mute Bakari's mic -- so a team Biden surrogate is going to be coming up next with what they expect to see on the debate stage. That is Georgia Senator Raphael Warnock in here as we are inching closer and closer to that historic showdown. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) [18:50:04] COLLINS: And just a short time from now, you're going to see something that none of us have ever seen before, no longer -- no matter how long have you been watching politics, paying attention closely, paying attention to those presidential debates, we've never seen a former president and a current president go head-to-head on a debate stage. But that is all going to change tonight when we see the rematch of Donald Trump and Joe Biden on stage. They will be eight feet apart, as we know inside that debate hall, when all of this gets underway. My panel is back here with me. And, Kristen Soltis Anderson, as we are looking at what tonight's going to look like, there is a very small amount of voters that Donald Trump and Joe Biden are trying to appeal to. And I think its an a nuance of what they've been prepping and what that's going to look like in a moment of how they're reaching out to those voters. I mean, we know Donald Trumps bases with him and Biden's base may not be energized for him, but they're still not going to vote for Joe Biden over -- for Donald Trump over him. How did they make that that outreach on issues like immigration, the economy, abortion, as you've been talking about. ANDERSON: Well, you're right that tonight is going to be an opportunity for these two men to talk to the sort of voter who is not been following, say Trumps legal troubles very closely, who is not been following the news day in and day out. They've been out living their lives. And so, now, they're re-engaging as we get closer and closer to November with this big blockbuster moment. And so, for those lower engagement voters, those are the types of folks that have actually been more in Donald Trumps camp. He does quite well with the type of folks that don't. All didn't watch the news, but know that Donald Trump has been good in business or those sorts of thing that's what I hear in focus groups from these lower engagement voters. They're going to be tuning into night to see does Donald Trump show up and do something entertaining? And his Joe Biden show up and demonstrate that he's got it all together. ALLISON: You know, I think when I was on the campaign in 2020, I ran the coalitions department and that's about like pat stitching together a quill of all the different communities in our country from seniors, to young Americans, to African-Americans, to immigrants, and that is a challenge Joe Biden has to speak to tonight. I think that we are saying perhaps that there's a smaller group of voters that Joe Biden needs to speak to. And when I hear that and I shouldn't assume, but when I hear that, I hear like Nikki Haley voters. I think if that's the only people Joe Biden tries to speak to tonight, that's a mistake. He needs speak to his base. They aren't going to vote for Joe Biden, but as Bakari always says, they could stay home on the couch. And so today is the day to start to get the people ready to make a plan to go vote in November, whether you're super excited about Joe Biden or not, you will do what you have to do to ensure Donald Trump -- COLLINS: And that's what the timing of this is. So interesting is that this is of one of -- this is the earliest presidential debate we've ever seen. A lot of voters start paying attention closer to the election when they're like, oh, yeah, I've got to vote for whoever is going to be the next president. This is happening so much earlier for them to be tuning into paying attention to. GOLDBERG: Yeah, that was smart of the Biden campaign to do that, they needed to change the narrative, change of the trajectory. Most -- there's never been presidential debate in the general election prior to the second week of September, I think. So, this is like telling people, hey, you got to pay attention now, get an aware about early voting. COLLINS: And obviously, one of the states that Biden one in 2020 that Donald Trump lost, which was historic and of itself is the one were sitting in right now, the state of Georgia. And, Wolf, that's been a key part of what we've been paying attention to, Donald Trump's relationship with Republicans here, but also how the Biden campaign is using the representatives of this state as their surrogates this time around. BLITZER: And Georgia obviously emerging as a battleground state itself. I'm here, Kaitlan, now with Democratic Senator Raphael Warnock of Georgia. He's a national advisory board number for the Biden-Harris campaign. Senator, thank you so much for joining us. As you know, the Biden campaign is hoping that tonight's debate can reset the race in their favor. What do you think the president needs to do to accomplish that tonight? SEN. RAPHAEL WARNOCK (D-GA): Well, thank you so very much and welcome to battleground Georgia. Listen, the president does not need my advice, but I'll tell you this, I've been moving all around my state and people of the people of Georgia understand that there's so much at stake here. The good news in this moment is that this is a binary choice. The difference between these two men could not be more stark. The difference is between the man who has spent his whole life, I think in many ways informed by his own deep sense of loss and pain serving people. And another man whose only thinking about himself, and he's especially focused on himself now that he's living under this cloud of all of these criminal convictions and charges against him. The American people going forward someone who will be focused on them and who will be focused on ordinary people. That man is Joe Biden. BLITZER: Here in your home state, Senator, a new "Atlanta Journal Constitution" poll shows President Biden support among Black Georgians slipping to 69 percent compared to 88 percent back in 2020. [18:55:02] Why do you think President Biden support is falling among Black voters here in Georgia? WARNOCK: Well, I can tell you as somebody whose name has been on the ballot some five times in less than three years, that the polls don't tell you as much as the people do. The only poll that really counts is November 5th and I think that the people of Georgia going to get it right, Black voters are going to get it right. After all, Black wealth is up some 60 percent since the pandemic. We've seen the narrowing of the racial wealth gap in part because this is a president who had the courage to cancel student debt. I've been in rooms all across the state, Wolf, and every time I asked a question that I've been asking lately, have you had your student debt canceled or do you know someone who's had their student debt canceled? I haven't been in room yet, where hands have not gone up. So what we've got to do between now and November is what I do every Sunday. I'm still the pastor of Ebenezer Church. Ive preached the gospel, which literally means good news, even though it was good news, you got to tell it Sunday after Sunday, at -- while at the same time continuing to build on the progress that we've already made. BLITZER: So what you're saying, Senator, how should President Biden make that clear to voters, what should President Biden say on tonight's stage to make his case, and really try to solidify his support with Black voters? WARNOCK: Well, first of all, he's running against a man who is an existential threat. Donald Trump is a plague on the American conscience and the American nation, and Black voters in particular, ought to be concerned that the Oval Office could be occupied by a man who took out a full full-page ad condemning the Exonerated Five used to be the Central Park Five, these young teenagers of a terrible crime they did not commit. And when they were proven to be not guilty, he's never apologized for that. He's never come around. Joe Biden is running on his record. He's running on a record of canceling student debt, of passing the largest tax cut for middle and working class families in American history. And Donald Trump is literally running on his criminal record as if that's a reason for Black voters to vote for him. Nothing could be more insulting. And at the end of the day, not only our base, the people of Georgia, and I believe the American people are going to get this right because there's so much at stake. BLITZER: I want you to listen to senator, to what a Republican senator, one of your colleagues, Republican Senator Tim Scott, said about the fact that he, Scott, is a top contender to be Trump's running mate. Listen to this. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SEN. TIM SCOTT (R-SC): And we Southerners get so little credit for the progress we've made. The whole notion of judging a person on the content of their character, not the color of their skin has happened. It's not going to happen. It's not around the corner. It's on the rearview mirror. We are living Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.'s dream. (END VIDEO CLIP) BLITZER: You are the head pastor of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.'s former church. What's your reaction to what that senator says? WARNOCK: Well, as a pastor of Ebenezer Baptist Church, where Dr. King preached, I know the progress that we have made as a result of this work, and of the sacrifice not only of him but people like Fannie Lou Hamer and so many others, who stood up. America is better because of the civil rights movement. We cannot rest on the laurels of those achievements we have to continue to build. And I find that ironic, quite honestly that my colleague talks about ellipses as Republicans often do, Dr. Kings quote, that you ought to be judged not by the color of your skin, but the content of your character, when it came down to it, Donald Trump handpicked a football player who clearly was not qualified to be the senator from Georgia I think based on the color of his skin, it was a kind of cynical, racialized move. At the end of the day, Black voters, the voters of Georgia saw straight through it and I'm the sitting junior senator representing the state of Georgia and we've seen this movie before. Donald Trump might try it again. He ought to remember what happened the last time. BLITZER: One interesting note to do, "Atlanta Journal Constitution" poll, Senator, also shows only 12 percent of young voters aged 18 to 29 support President Biden in your home state of Georgia, is that a major alarm bell for President Biden? And what does he need to say tonight to try to turn that around? WARNOCK: Well, listen, at the end of the day, we need a president who centers people rather than himself. And I think voters, regardless of their age, ought to ask themselves, well what vision is Donald Trump laying out? When we were focused on trying to cancel student debt, he chaired the fact that the Supreme Court, with many of his nominees canceled the president's original plan. He's boasting about the fact that he that he canceled Roe v. Wade. I think we ought to give him credit for that and, we ought to send Joe Biden back to the White House. BLITZER: Senator Raphael Warnock, thanks so much for joining us. WARNOCK: Thank you. BLITZER: And to our viewers, thanks very much for watching. Our special coverage of DEBATE NIGHT IN AMERICA continues right here, right now on CNN with Anderson Cooper and Erin Burnett. CNN Live Event / Special Aired June 27, 2024 - 19:00 ET THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED. [19:01:01] ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: And good evening from CNN headquarters in Atlanta, where just two hours from now, history will be made. ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Joe Biden and Donald Trump squaring off on the stage. We are showing you and the earliest ever presidential debate, the first ever between the president and ex-president, the first in which one of the candidates is also convicted felon awaiting three other criminal trials. BURNETT: And so much sets this debate apart from others, including rules tailored just for this occasion and agreed to by both candidates. But there are so many unknowns about what will happen tonight, Anderson. COOPER: Can President Biden overcome the difficulties that so many incumbent presidents have faced in their first debates? Can Donald Trump do what his advisers have been urging him to do and stick to what they see as winning issues, or will he repeat the nastiness of his first debate with Biden in 2020? BURNETT: Well, one thing is clear, Anderson, is it were going to be getting answers to that, and very soon. What's also clear is just how high the stakes are tonight, how much it matters for the candidates themselves, for their chances and for many millions of voters to get a better sense of what the choice is really are in November in this election and for what the United States of America will look like a year from now. It is a crucial night and I want to get straight to it with our MJ Lee who was new reporting on how the Biden campaign is gearing up for tonight. So, MJ, what are you learning? MJ LEE, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Erin, it is not lost on the Biden campaign. What a unique opportunity they have tonight for President Biden to make a lasting impression up to American voters and to cast himself as the better alternative to Donald Trump. Last week of preparations at Camp David were obviously really all about the 90 minutes that he is going to be spending on the debate stage. But we are learning tonight of another way in which the Biden campaign is trying to capitalize on the fact that many Americans will be tuning in. They are going to be airing three ads around the debate tonight that were specifically chosen to really try to drive the way three of the core arguments that they believe are going to be really politically salient heading into November. The first ad is on reproductive rights, featuring a Texas woman who said that she was denied medical attention after she suffered a miscarriage. And you'll remember that she's specifically blames Donald Trump for what she went through. The second ad features a Michigan sheriff who denounces President Trump's handling and actions around January 6, and then the final ad will be hitting Trump's out record and his character. And this is the ad where they described Donald Trump as a convicted criminal who is only out for himself. Erin, this is just yet another example of the fact the Biden team believes that their path to the presidency is all about presenting a binary choice they want to reach voters who have not been tuned in much so far this election cycle and who do not believe that November is going to be about Joe Biden versus Donald Trump. And I should also note, Biden advisers, we have when speaking to do believe that this is a potentially going to be the most are prepared a Donald Trump has ever been heading into a debate, and that he could potentially be more disciplined and more on message than we have ever seen him. BURNETT: And everybody, we watching for that. MJ, thank you. COOPER: Let's go to CNN's Kristen Holmes, who's got new reporting from inside the Trump camp. I understand you've got some new details on whether Trump team has been focused on leading up to the debate. KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, particularly, Anderson in the last 24 hours, they are looking at performance, the art of the performance, as well as visual. Remember out as hard Donald Trump is a performer and he and many and his team believed that that's just as important as the substance of the debate. His team on the ground here in Atlanta has spent the last 24 for hours really honing in on every single detail. I'm talking about the minutia, the steps it takes to get from behind the curtain to the podium, how far the podiums are part, even the height and where they are angled. One of the things that they were talking about was how the audio sounded from each podium to make sure that it was clear enough from the former presidents podium. [19:05:05] Donald Trump himself believes that these visuals, like how he performs up on that stage, is going to impact how people view this. And so his team has really put in the effort to make sure that it is to his liking and keep Donald Trump himself is scheduled to do that candidate walked through at any time? You will see the layout. But one of the things to remind you, he often talks both privately and publicly about how he looks on stage, how he sounds on stage, what the crowd looked like, looking at him. This is something he cares deeply about and that's obvious as he steps on the stage. Obviously this again, goes to all of the preparation that they have been doing on policy. They have been having normal conversations. But right now, that team here, they were looking at the visuals and optics ahead of the debate. COOPER: Kristen Holmes, thanks so much. Erin? BURNETT: All right, Anderson. And I'm here with Audie Cornish, Chris Wallace, Kaitlan Collins, and Kasie Hunt, all of us here through the night. So Chris, we're now in minus two hours before they walk out. They're going to walk out actually a little bit before 9:00. What -- what do they do here in these final moments? They are both here. They have both arrived. We know that we saw Trump get in later, obviously, around 5:30 local time, get off the plane. What do they do in these final moments? CHRIS WALLACE, CNN HOST: Well, if they're smart, they're basically left alone to think about it. You know, I suppose some of the candidates' advisors might sit there and give them pepper drills, but at this point, you just want to collect yourself, figure out what are the main points, remind yourself, what are the main points that you want to make, the holes you don't want to fall into. I can tell you one thing that the Trump campaign has been talking about and thinking about is how he walk -- when he walks out onto the stage, should he shake hands with Joe Biden or not? This is a real issue because one of the things I want to project, his strength versus weakness, and they think physically, Donald Trump looks stronger and walks better than Joe Biden with his somewhat halting gait. BURNETT: Yeah. WALLACE: So I don't know what he's going to do. I don't know what the big decision will be and it may well be the Trump decides on the fly as he walks out. But one of the thoughts is to shake hands and try to project strength versus -- BURNETT: You bring up the handshake, Audie, this is actually very central. The gait is crucial because everyone's going to see that and so much of this is optics, but the handshake, we know the Biden team has been thinking about that, too, whether he even wants to shake Trump's hand. So is this something that literally in that moment could be decided? AUDIE CORNISH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I think you should think about all of this as a big reset, right? Like Jay-Z says, is like let me re- introduce. Everybody, wake up. BURNETT: Yeah. CORNISH: This campaign is happening. This election is happening. These are the people in front of you. And if you haven't been tuning in, this is your chance. Similarly for the candidates, the last time they did all this was during COVID. The handshake -- BURNETT: That's why there wasn't a handshake. CORNISH: Yeah. Like so this is literally a reset moment. How do we do this? How should it look? And what's the most effective way to deliver this information to voters, and how they spent their day today, Kaitlan. We know Trump posted on social media Joe Biden's a threat to democracy, a threat to the survival and existence of our country itself, all caps, sort of what you would expect. But that was what we heard. KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR, THE SOURCE: Yeah, Donald Trump has always been a big fan of the I'm rubber, you're glue kind of retort, anytime someone labels a critic -- lobs a criticism at him, he often returns it to them. But I think when you look at them on stage tonight, what's different than four years ago is that Joe Biden obviously has a presidential record. He had never been president before. He was only able to scrutinize and attack Donald Trump's record as president. That will obviously be different tonight. For Donald Trump, though, he has a criminal record for the -- I mean, he's never been on the debate stage since he was a convicted felon, since he had multiple, dozens of indictment and counts and charges against him. So there is just a completely different dynamic, even though we've all seen this movie before. We've all seen the two of these guys on stage before. They are the most recognized political figures, everyone knows their backgrounds and their records, but we've never seen them on stage with these dynamics before. So that's the thing to look for tonight is what's different now than it was four years ago -- BURNETT: And they are also trying to flip the script though, Kasie, Trump trying to take the democracy point, but they are -- there seems like an attempt to that. I mean, we'll see that's what he tries tonight. KASIE HUNT, CNN ANCHOR: There's absolutely -- I mean, that's a tried and true Trump tactic to duck something that's a weak point for him and claim, oh, actually, the other guy is doing that. But when I think about what's really different between the last time we saw this happen when Chris was in charge. And now is -- WALLACE: I may have been a lot of things, I was not in charge. BURNETT: Very humble. HUNT: I know -- I mean, I've spent a lot of time actually watching that debate recently, but the level of personal animosity between these two men is just at a much higher level than it even was then. I mean, let's be real. Joe Biden, I don't think it's ever really liked Donald Trump. We know how Donald Trump has felt about Joe Biden over the years. [19:10:02] But now, you have a sitting president who sees across the stage from him a former president who tried to steal an election from him, right? And one of the main things I think were going to be looking for tonight is how Donald Trump handles January 6 in front of a crowd of millions that may be turning in, tuning into this election for the first time. They may not have seen his campaign rallies where he starts off with a solute to what he calls the January 6 hostages. So I do think that there are many, many layers tonight that to your point, these are different people at different points in their careers, but there are also different impersonal ways as well. BURNETT: So how they spent the day, Audie? I went through Trump's social media posts. Joe Biden actually posted a video on his social media sort of highlighting certain points about Trump. I want to just play. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Threat to democracy. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I cannot in good conscience endorse Donald Trump. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We don't take an oath to a king or queen, or a tyrant or a dictator. We don't take an oath to a wannabe dictator. (END VIDEO CLIP) BURNETT: Those are the voices of former aides of Trump. CORNISH: And only a few, only a few. BURNETT: And obviously, there's many more. CORNISH: Right. You could choose from, but that's another thing ill be looking at tonight. How are these things framed differently? It's one thing for the president to bring up January 6. It's another thing for Joe Biden to talk about political violence and to use a word like that. There's going to be different ways that they talk about familiar issues that will give us a hint about what the next couple of months will be like in terms of their messaging. WALLACE: You know, I -- the flip side of that is how Donald Trump handles it. And I can tell you the plan that doesn't mean that the plan has got to laugh, but very much not to get stuck into re- litigating 2020, not to get stuck into talking a lot about January. And if he does talk about pardoning, he's going to qualify it and say the pardoning the non-violent offenders, but certainly not pardoning the violent offenders on that day. But they very much want to pivot off that and say hey, in effect, enough about 2020, even though he's done nothing but talk about it for four years, enough about 2020. Let's talk about the future. Let's talk about American peoples problems. We'll see whether or not he aged able to stick to that plan. But that's -- that's what the idea is going in. COLLINS: I also think that first debate in that performance was seared in to his mind because Donald Trump walked off that debate with you and he thought that he had crushed it. He thought he had done such a great job. And as it is often the case with Donald Trump, his perch perception is shaped by the coverage and what he sees after and what he hears from his advisers after. And obviously he interrupted President Biden a lot during that debate. And he's even admitted it. He did it this week in an interview with "The Washington Examiner" that he interrupted too much during that debate. And so Donald Trump, you know, takes advice from a lot of other people. He doesn't always listen to it or actually observe it. I do think he remembers and as we have been playing at length this week, the clips from that debate, he's reminded of how often he interrupted and what that looked like. We'll see if he maintains it passed the first 20 minutes or the entire debate. HUNT: Well, I also wonder how much the reality of the rules and the way that this is being set up is going to affect how Donald Trump is able to do that. I mean, I think that the perception has kind of shifted over the course the last couple of days too. I certainly have talked to a number of people who have suggested that perhaps it will help Donald Trump, that in the event that he does have trouble biting his tongue, which we know that he sometimes does, that he will be -- he will not be heard by a television audience because I think one of the things with this, this debate is going to be very unusual, of course, because there's not going to be an audience in the room. There's going to be basically just the moderators, these people, the people that have to do the technical work to get it on the air. That's different from -- from previous years. So it's just going to be the two of them centered like this, experiencing it in the room though, is not the same way that Americans experience that on television. And it can be a mistake when you're in the room to take what you feel like happens there and extrapolate because you can miss things across from the television. BURNETT: Well, the read of the room and you having sat there at that debate. It's a different feeling there versus what you when you watched it later? WALLACE: No, I knew it was a disaster. But I will say, I actually think those question to the audience is overstated. It is very intense in that little circle in my debate. They were ten feet apart in this debate, there eight feet apart. I mean, they could just really were very, very close to each other. CORNISH: I disagree. Trump has said that the audience matters. There's a little bit of living the applause and you got to be able to play to someone. WALLACE: We were -- but they didn't play does someone and they were very much under orders, not to the audience, to applaud. I'm telling you that having been on that stage age they -- it's the two candidates and the moderator. And that's really it. I do not think that lack of an audience is going to be a -- BURNETT: Well, we were -- we are all going to see that shortly and all of you, of course, are going to be here. We're here together, and I hope all of you will be sticking around and more and more joining as the hours go. Just ahead, we will be joined by Trump surrogate, and New York Republican Congresswoman Elise Stefanik. [19:15:01] That and a closer look at what the former president and President Biden will see an experience in that room at their podiums, which will not be like anything, any candidate and see before. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) [19:19:13] COOPER: Looking there at the CNN debate stage, where it all gets underway about an hour and 40 minutes from now, or want to take a look right now at how that stage and the rules surrounding it, how --what happens on it, or unique. CNN's Kate Bolduan joins us with that. So, Kate, explain like, first of all, where you are and explain the setup. KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: I am exactly where everyone wants to be in the absolute middle of the action, where it's all going to be having. Let's talk about the setup of the stage and studio first, Anderson, which is obviously important. The candidates will be at the lectern. These lecterns, as you can see, this is actually the lecterns where Donald Trump will be standing. They are eight feet apart. Said another way, not far apart at all. In previous debates, the lecterns have been about 12-ish feet apart. [19:20:02] For a woman who's 5'4", that's three or four steps apart. So there's a physical proximity dynamic that will be at play tonight. Donald Trump will be screen left. Joe Biden will be screen right when they are here, they are allowed to take notes. Ronnie, lets show them notepads, empty note pads and pens right here with the candidates are not allowed to do, are to bring prepared notes on to the stage with them. What you'll see, what they will be looking at right here. We see our awesome crew getting ready to go. What they will be looking at is not a studio audience only our moderators, Jake Tapper, Dana Bash, they will be the only people that they well see in this set, in this studio for the entirety of it. The only breaks in the action, Anderson, during the 90 minute debate are going to be two commercial breaks. And during that time, importantly, the candidates will not be allowed any contact with campaign staff. COOPER: And walk through how the core of the debate is structured? BOLDUAN: The structure of the debate is everything. When you get to the core of it, which is questions, answers, and the actual debate. This is how it goes. The moderators, Dana and Jake, they ask a question to the designated candidate when they ask the question that candidate gets two minutes to answer. Other candidate then gets one minute to respond and candidate one, we will call them, then gets one minute for a rebuttal to that response. During that time when the candidate is speaking that the designated candidate's microphone will be on the candidate who is not designated to be speaking. Their microphone will be off. And this is when the timing clock really come in to play. The designated candidate when they are speaking, when they get down to 15 seconds, you'll see, these are, their timing lights there on every camera around the studio, when the light turns yellow, that indicates to the candidate speaking, they have 15 seconds left, when they hit five seconds it starts flashing red. And then when they are out of time, it's a solid red and that is when the mics switch, if you will. Mics go on and vice versa. Mic goes on, mic goes off. This is all designed to maximize the allotted time in this debate, to maximize the amount that the viewers, the voters, everyone that is at home gets to hear from the candidates and learn more about their divergent positions and how to leave the country, Anderson. COOPER: And I just want to point out both candidates and campaigns have agreed to these rules. With me here, CNN political commentators of all political stripes, Scott Jennings, Kate Bedingfield, David Urban, Van Jones, Alyssa Farah Griffin and David Axelrod, also "NEWSNIGHT" anchor Abby Phillip, and CNN chief national correspondent John King. John, let me start off with you. What is -- I mean, let's just talk about the state of the race between these two candidates with this debate. JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDNT: Look, it's a very close race when you look at the national polls, but a less close race if you go to the battleground states where Donald Trump has a clear advantage, its not a huge advantage, but it's a clear advantage. COOPER: And this is all about the battleground states. KING: It is. That's -- you've got to get to 270 electoral votes, right? And so Donald Trump has a clear advantage right now. It's not very big. It's not overwhelming. But the question becomes, and this is my question -- the political pros could help me more than this -- traditional rules, this race, given the structure, structure of the race, president with a 38 percent approval rating, two thirds of the country thinking were on the wrong track, he's the incumbent president, the economic anxiety in the country despite, I know the Biden people, anyone watching saying, wait, numbers are great. People don't feel it. This is at a point where traditionally, you would say an incumbent president is either at or past the tipping point. It's like bending still with your bare hands now, to get that approval rating above 40, close to 42, that's how an incumbent can win. If you look at the structure of this race historically, Joe Biden's in deep trouble in terms of how much he has to change in the 18-1/2 weeks he has left to do it, but here's the history of the moment. Normally with an incumbent presidents, I want four more years. And the other person says, we need change, we need new. It's Donald Trump. It's Donald Trump. We've never been here, 134 years since the guy who lost the presidency runs against the guy who took the job from him, right? We didn't have TV age, we didn't have the social media age. So, normally, it's four more years versus change. Tonight is four more years versus the last four years. And I don't know the psychology of that. I think anyone who pretends they understand how the American people are going to process that is making it up. DAVID AXELROD, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: The answer your question is, we also have an erase with two candidates who are as unpopular as these candidates are. Donald Trump comes in with his own substantial baggage and therefore this race continues to be close. But you know, Yogi Berra once said about the shadows in Yankee Stadium. He said it gets late, early here, and it is early in a way, but it's also late for the president. This race has been basically very stable for quite awhile. This is his opportunity to dispel some of the concerns about his age, but also to take the attack to Trump. [19:25:04] And it's -- before the biggest audience that he'll probably have in his campaign. ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR: As far the voters are concerned, it's almost as if Joe Biden is actually running against Joe Biden. He wants to make it Joe Biden against Donald Trump, but he's really running against himself in a lot of ways. The voters who voted for him, the latest "New York Times" poll, 72 percent say they're sold to vote for him again, that's not a good number for an incumbent. This election, I mean, maybe no election ever in America again, is about persuasion except in the sense that Joe Biden has to persuade his own people to leave their homes and come out and vote for him because that is his biggest problem right now. DAVID URBAN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Go ahead. ALYSSA FARAH GRIFFIN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I'm just fascinated to see which Donald Trump shows up tonight. I've prepped him for a press conferences, for town halls, and he is somebody who is capable of getting through 90 minutes, sticking to the issues he's strong on border security, the economy, job growth, onshoring jobs. And then there's a world in which he's easily triggered. If Joe Biden hits him with certain attacks, if Jake Tapper asks a question he doesn't like or frames at a certain way. He's a showman who feeds off of the vibe around him. And if he feels like he's being isolated or he's being targeted, he can unleash. And we all remember that first debate last time I think was instrumental in him slowly declining in Joe Biden surpassing him. So we'll see who shows up. VAN JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Look, from my point of view, the one thing we haven't pointed out, we've also never had a president who is an insurrectionist, never had a president who refuses to accept the basic rules of democracy, never had a president who has been charged and convicted with this mini crimes or any crimes. So he's going to be up there for himself. He's going to be up there defending himself. Joe Biden is not. And this week, I have gotten more and more proud of Joe Biden. They're going to be grandmas out there who can afford to pay for their insulin because the Joe Biden, there are women out their worried they're not going to be able to take care of their bodies, they get pregnant, Joe Biden's fight for those folks. And so, Joe Biden has a purpose up there and then which one is going -- I think you're going to see Joe Biden that is deeply committed to the American people. You've got to see what you love about Joe Biden tonight and watch a hate about Donald Trump. KATE BEDINGFIELD, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: And I would say just quickly on that, just quickly on that. I would say, don't underestimate how much Joe Biden loves this kind of moment. This is not a night that Joe Biden is rolling into afraid or insecure or without a sense of what he wants to say. COOPER: You're saying this is somebody who used to work for. BEDINGFIELD: Yeah, as somebody who worked for Joe Biden for eight years, prepped him for debates in the primaries in 2019, prepped him to debate Donald Trump in 2020. This is something that he loves to do. He has a very -- Kasie was referencing earlier the animosity between these two men. He is -- he's not a fan of Donald Trump to put it lightly. And I think that that kind of personal intensity is going to help motivate him tonight, and his task absolutely is to move the conversation to Donald Trump. And I think he's going to come out tonight with an energy. (CROSSTALK) URBAN: I'm just going to say, it's my turn, Scott. (LAUGHTER) URBAN: We're now talking about bending steel here tonight, right? Joe Biden has to bend steel. The one thing, if you look at poll after poll after poll, it's immutable that the steel that he cannot bend is his age. Joe Biden is too old to be president. That's the thing that is fighting against him here. He's got to get up there and proved to everybody that he's not too old, that he's not -- that he's up for the fight. And Alyssa's point about Donald Trump being on message for 90 minutes, it's not a doctoral dissertation. This is -- this is going to be two- minute answers, two-minute answers, two-minute answers. So he could stay focused on message for two minutes for 15 two-minute sections, I think again. BEDINGFIELD: OK, but I hate to break to you, Donald Trump is 78. So, if Joe Biden is too old to be president -- URBAN: But you know what? Americans aren't concerned about it. It's doesn't -- at least that's what the polling says. The polling says they're not concerned about it. He's vigorous, he shows up as vigorous every poll. Americans aren't concerned. JONES: Scott? COOPER: Scott? URBAN: Your turn, Scott. SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN POLITICAL CONTRIBUTOR: Look, I think we cannot understate the importance of this moment for one person, and that's Joe Biden. His campaign is teetering on the brink of going away right now. The polling is bad. The image is bad. You said they're both unpopular. Look at the Gallup poll this week. Donald Trump's popularity is back to where it was back in April of 2020. He's getting more popular. Biden is getting less popular. Democrats are nervous. They know he is losing. The reason we're having this debate is because the Biden campaign knows it must change the trajectory. Anything short of a game-changing moment for Biden tonight is a loss for him and a win for Donald Trump. All Trump has to do is show up for 90 minutes and look like a plausible president of the United States, and that is a win. COOPER: Van, you don't think that's the case. JONES: Well, you guys love changing the metrics here. First of all, Donald Trump is going to be in trouble. This is not set up for him. There's going to be no audience. Nobody is there to laugh at his jokes, on his whole insult comic thing is not done to work. It's going to be weird for him. Number two, he's not going to be able to run over people at this time. He's got to be muted. Donald Trump with a socket in his mouth, he's never been there before. And also, he's got us up their pretend he's presidential while he's getting jabbed and jabbed and poked. [19:30:01] So I think what you're going to see is a Donald Trump -- you guys think all he has to do with go out there and he has to show people he's not a madman. AXELROD: Well -- (CROSSTALK) BEDINGFIELD: He has just -- he has just as much to lose here as Joe Biden. JONES: Yes, I'm sorry. BEDINGFIELD: I'm talking about -- I agree with you. You're talking about a race that separated by a couple of points in the six battleground states that are going to be decisive. So the idea that somehow Joe Biden's campaign is teetering on -- JENNINGS: Why are we having the debate in June? Why are we having the debate -- BEDINGFIELD: I don't disagree -- I don't disagree. Excuse me, I don't disagree that the Biden campaign needs to change the dynamic, and I think its smart for them to do this debate early. They want to force the choice. I don't disagree with that. I do disagree with the notion that somehow Biden's campaign is teetering on the edge and Donald Trump has nothing to lose tonight. That's ludicrous. AXELROD: Let me just disagree with everybody. JONES: You're allowed. You are left. URBAN: That's why you're on that side. JONES: That's why you're on that side. AXELROD: This is indisputably a big night. It's a big night for both of them, but it's a particularly big night for the president and it's an opportunity for him to go out and dispel some of the concerns about them, but also to deliver the case against Trump and what he needs to do in each and every case is go back and create that comparative, create that contrast, and go after Trump -- yes, on the -- on the issues of insurrection and his conviction and all that. But more -- more than that, the issues that touch the lives of the American people. So I think it's a great opportunity for them and we should remember that four years ago, people were asking this same question about Biden. JENNINGS: But he wasn't behind. He wasn't behind. AXELROD: No, no, no, just second. Calm down. (CROSSTALK) AXELROD: But he came out and he -- from yesterday, its easier to be the challenger in the insurgent. The problem here is that for Trump is that he is a -- he's an insurgent and a challenger with a record that is a very heavy load. URBAN: But don't you think that the record that Trump -- he's going to come out and say, please compare my record to Joe Biden. (CROSSTALK) AXELROD: I know what he's going to say, Dave. But he's not going to say that without rebuttal. This notion that he's just going to come out and he's going to perform and recite is two-minute answers, there's going to be a live ammo coming -- URBAN: One minute. BEDINGFIELD: Right. PHILLIP: There has been I think, just a bizarre fiction about what Donald Trump has been up to over the last few months. Every Republican close to Trump keeps saying he is so disciplined. Have you actually listened to his rallies? I listened to them. (CROSSTALK) PHILLIP: OK? Watched them, listened them, and this is a problem for Trump, okay? He might be muted, in terms of the back-and-forth, but he also has to actually deliver something that is more than just his grievances and he has not actually done that. Maybe he's been training and that's what we will see tonight. But the biggest problem for Donald Trump is that when he is left to his own devices, it reminds people of somebody who really only has one thing on his mind, which is Donald Trump, and how he's been wronged, and how he's been, you know, maligned, and all of that. And that is not conducive to an economic. PHILLIP: And I said, it's not a conducive to a message about crime or immigration. All those other things, we will see. But, but the Trump when he's on his own, that is usually the problem. URBAN: I don't know if Saturday night in Philadelphia is pretty on message. It's pretty good. KING: Donald Trump lost in 2020 because the suburbs, the American suburbs are his kryptonite. The American suburbs turned on him and the American suburbs do not want to hear him say he won the 2020 election, and they do not want to hear him say, defend January 6, and say he will part in the January 6. So that's Joe Biden's opportunity there, if you can get Donald Trump to talk about that. And Donald Trump doesn't change his answers because you mentioned Philadelphia Saturday. Those are his answers. They start with a tribute to the January 6 and he said he won the election in 2020 and they did not, those people were trying to stop the peaceful transfer of power. The problem for Biden is math is a little different. If Biden can get it back to a fight for the suburbs, then we have an election. Biden has a problem in that his younger voters -- he can't solve Gaza tonight. That's a huge open sore with younger voters. And one more quick point, Blacks and Latinos, especially Black and Latino men, the president's math has -- he has to fill in the foundation of his own base first and then it get back into a fight with Donald Trump for the suburbs, if he can get into that fight, he has a chance. (CROSSTALK) KING: It's a lot steel. COOPER: Van? KING: But it's Donald Trump, not a new Republican challenger. JONES: Well, I do think he has an opportunity to remind people -- with Donald Trump when it comes to Black voters. You got a lot of insults. You don't have a lot of investments -- people don't know. I think Biden should hit very hard on the fact that his Justice 40, which is a big part of the spin doubt (ph), was targeted towards Black community. That's why you've got the lowest Black unemployment that you've ever had. Also, you had a Black vice president, Black Supreme Court justice, one out of five people who are serving that administration are African- American, he has made investments in the Black community while Trump it has been insulting the Black community. GRIFFIN: But I do think if I may, I think that to underscore just the historic nature of this moment since 2020, you've had 88 felony counts, 34 actual criminal convictions. You've had Roe overturned, you had January 6. [19:35:00] This is a fundamentally different moment in history that Donald Trump is facing. Yet, he's beating Joe Biden. I think Joe Biden tonight has to crystallize and convey the message of why Donald Trump is unfit. And if he can't, I don't know that there's -- JENNINGS: If he -- Alyssa, if he does not come out tonight and deliver a game game-changing moment, that everybody on this place is going to be -- except for Urban and me -- in a mad panic in the morning, in a mad panic. (CROSSTALK) AXELROD: But to Van's point, Van, you admire the president's record. I actually admire the president's record. But if he spends the whole night extolling his own record and it doesn't take the case to Trump, he will lose this debate and he may lose this election. JONES: Fair enough. COOPER: Okay. (CROSSTALK) PHILLIP: Biden's base is his problem right now and that problem is -- COOPER: I got to get to Erin. PHILLIP: -- so multifaceted. COOPER: Erin, let's go back to you. (CROSSTALK) BURNETT: I feel bad -- I feel bad breaking in, Anderson. All right. But joining us now, New York Republican congresswoman and Trump supporter, Elise Stefanik. And, Congresswoman, I very much appreciate your time. I know that you and president Trump speak frequently. So what does he told you about tonight's debate? REP. ELISE STEFANIK (R-NY): Well, first of all, I think the American people are going to see a stark contrast. This is just a reminder of Joe Biden's failed presidency, whether it's the wide open border crisis, whether it's the weak national security and the chaos around the world, or whether its Bidenflation and American families are getting crushed by the rising cost of goods. Compare that with President Trump's record and his presidency where you saw an economic boom, you saw wages increasing, you saw peace through strength around the world. You saw energy independence. So this will be a clear contact trust on policies. And I'm proud to be in Atlanta, Georgia, as one of the top surrogates for President Trump. BURNETT: And I know you are here in Atlanta, but when you talk about that stark contrast that you say, we're going to see. I mean, we know advisers to the former president have said he needs to focus on the things you're talking about, Congresswoman -- the economy, crime, inflation. Instead of airing his grievances, he's been told to avoid a repeat of the first 2020 debate. We've heard that from many. We've heard that he himself has been clear. He wants to avoid that. One adviser told "Rolling Stone" today in fairly colorful language, don't be a raging, ill use the word jerk. Congresswoman, I'm curious as to whether you think he can make this stark contrast as clearly as you hope he will over a 90-minute period. STEFANIK: Well, absolutely he can, and President Trump is speaking directly to the American people. He does so every day, his message is resonating. That's why you're seeing historic support in swing states and why you're seeing Joe Biden at a catastrophically low approval rating across the country, and his campaign continues to be feeble and feckless in these swing states. President Trump is winning independents, even in my home state of New York, Erin, in the latest poll, President Trump is only behind by six points. This is in a traditionally blue state like New York that Joe Biden won by over 20 points. So to show that significant swing, President Trump's message is resonating, and that's what you're going to see tonight. And this will be yet another reminder, no matter what Biden says, people are feeling Bidenflation. They're reading in the news, or they know communities that have been impacted by the Biden border crisis. They're seeing the chaos around the world. See our most precious is ally Israel under attack. So I think we'll hear a lot about that tonight's debate -- go ahead. BURNETT: I know when you talk about New York, of course, six points, you're right for New York. That's close. Of course, when you look at it nationally, that is an electoral chasm. So we'll see what happens in New York and people in the suburbs are going to be watching closely tonight. STEFANIK: And, Erin, look, that means -- remember, New York is moving in our direction. We flipped up those five seats in New York. Look at Michigan, look at Minnesota, look at Georgia, look at these states where he's polling better and better, stronger than any of the Republican nominee, stronger than 2016, stronger than 2020. Joe Biden is polling the weakest of any Democratic nominee in the past decade, probably further back than that. And that's because Joe Biden's presidency has been a failure. He is a weak president. The world knows that. The American people know that. Compare that with the strength -- BURNETT: I want to -- OK. STEFANIK: -- and a strong economy, the peace through strength under President Trump's presidency. BURNETT: So let me ask you, because of the comments that you're making and obviously your point of view on the former president now. You're former colleague, someone who considered you a friend back when you're in Congress together, Adam Kinzinger, he endorsed Biden yesterday, and he told me that he hasn't changed. It is the Republican Party that has changed, Congresswoman. In fact, he said, because it is not swearing allegiance to any kind of principles or policy anymore, it's all about swearing allegiance to one man who did his best to overthrow a legitimate election and convinced a third of the American people that the election was stolen. So, Congresswoman, what do you say to Adam Kinzinger, your former colleague, and your former friend? STEFANIK: Our responsibility is to stand up for the American people and try to make lives better for the American people. Joe Biden has destroyed economic opportunity. He has destroyed families budget. President Trump is working every day to share his vision on behalf of the American people. That is my responsibility and that's what I do every day in Congress. [19:40:03] And those people support President Trump. They see the success of his first term, and they see the failure of Joe Biden's term and will be his only term as president. So that's what will be the clear contrast today. And that's what you're seeing in the polls. And I know CNN is frustrated to see Joe Biden's polls continuing to slide lower and lower. But the American people are smart. They feel the inflation crisis from Joe Biden. They are reading the news about the border crisis. They know it's a humanitarian crisis. They see the chaos around the world and they know it because of Joe Biden's failures. BURNETT: On the issue though, of President Trump, obviously, your views have changed and that is a fact, Congresswoman, from many things you said, many areas of policy on which you have vehemently disagreed with the former president. Here are a few things that you have said in the past that stood out to me. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) STEFANIK: I think he has been insulting to women. I disagree with Mr. Trump's rhetoric towards women. I disagree with his belief that we should have a religious test for immigrants to this country. I don't think that's who we are. That's not according to our constitutional principles. (END VIDEO CLIP) BURNETT: So, Congresswoman, I'm just trying to give you a chance to that. We can all understand better. I mean, at one point you said in 2015, there's no place for what Trump said about Muslims in this country. Why has your view on Trump changed? STEFANIK: Well, I've seen the positive success and the reality, Erin, is, is I was the only elected Republican woman from the Northeast who voted for President Trump. I was smeared by Democrats for doing so. And I've been proud to be one of his top allies. I hosted him in my district, in my second term in office, he signed the national defense bill. I'm proud to be the first member to endorse his reelection. We saw the success and the most successful president in my lifetime in terms of growing the economy, promoting American manufacturing, rebuilding the nation's military. For me to be able to host him in my district with 10th Mountain Division Soldiers as he reinvested in our nations military, as he signed into law the largest pay raise for our troops, many of the provisions that I worked on, on the House Armed Services Committee, that's tremendous success. And now, we're seeing the failure of Joe Biden. So I'm proud to be a top surrogate. And you know what? More and more people who maybe were hesitant ten years ago about President Trump, they are now supporting him today. We welcome them. That's why you're seeing historic support among Hispanics and African Americans. He's going to win this election. BURNETT: All right. STEFANIK: We're going to see a stark contrast tonight. BURNETT: And we will see what we will see tonight. I know we will all be watching. And, Congressman Stefanik, I appreciate your time. Thank you so much. And next, a reminder of just how chaotic the first Biden-Trump debate four years ago was that we have all been referring to and a question, will tonight's new rules be enough to prevent that from happening again? (COMMERCIAL BREAK) [19:46:39] BURNETT: Our Chris Wallace tonight has already graciously acknowledged the challenge he faced as a debate moderator. He continues to do it again and again, even went on for years ago. Of course, that was the debate. Here is what some of it looked like it. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TRUMP: You would have been much later, Joe, much later. WALLACE: Mr. President. TRUMP: We're talking about two million people. BIDEN: You're not going to be able to shut him up. WALLACE: Mr. President, as the moderator. WALLACE: You have spent the last week- TRUMP: Because they want to give good healthcare. WALLACE: If I may ask my question, sir. WALLACE: Mr. President, I'm the moderator of this debate and I would like you to let me ask my question and then you can answer. TRUMP: Go ahead. BIDEN: Will you shut up, man? TRUMP: Listen, who is on your list, Joe? Who's on your list? WALLACE: Gentlemen, I think we've ended this- BIDEN: This is so un-Presidential. TRUMP: He's going to -- (END VIDEO CLIP) BURNETT: Chris was flying free of a net. This time there are new rules aimed at preventing that kind of thing in the yelling over and people telling each other to shut up. So our panel is back. Chris is back. Also joining us, Biden biographer Evan Osnos into this conversation. Chris, though, first chance to respond -- what's it like in that moment? Because as you said, you knew and you've done this so many times, you've been doing this for 45 years. And then in that moment something happened that was unexpected. WALLACE: Well, the interesting thing is that oftentimes, a debate becomes simultaneous news conferences, particularly if you've got strict rules, quite frankly, like we've got tonight, two-minute answers one-minute rebuttal, one one-minute rebuttal. One of the things I'm concerned about is that they won't engage with each other. So my initial reaction was, there are engaging. I didn't realize it was going to be engaging like Pearl Harbor or something. There was going to be a full-on onslaught. BURNETT: Yeah. WALLACE: We ended up having some four unfortunate production assistant at Fox where I was working at the time, count up, there were 145 interruptions by Donald Trump, 90 minutes, either of the candidate, Vice President Biden, at the time, were me, the answer was, I couldn't stop. At one point, the director says in my year for the Commission on Presidential Debates, get Trump to stop interrupting and I'm thinking -- BURNETT: Well, if I could -- WALLACE: I literally thought if there was a button that I can push in a trap door and Trump would go down. That's the only way I could do it. He was hell-bent that that was how he was going to -- I think he believed I'm going to go in there. I'm going to bulldoze Biden. I'm going to intimidate him, and that's how I'm going to win the debate. And there was never a plan B, he couldn't stop. He couldn't stop himself and he couldn't come up with another alternative, which I think what Biden is to let him talk, let them get in trouble, and then counterpunch. And that's one of the things that I know that the Trump camp is really talking about tonight, that is one of them said to me, it's not the punch that hurts. It's the counterpunch that hurts. COLLINS: Well, and Biden in that debate, it was like he was back on Capitol Hill as judiciary chairman because he would say reclaiming my time, can I get those 30 seconds back, treating it as if he's got those two minutes to answer and he wants to make the most of those two minutes. So it also repeatedly cut into his answering. Donald Trump would give his two-minute answer and then Joe Biden would not have the ability to respond without Donald Trump cutting in, whether was the green new deal or what have you. And so that's something else to watch for tonight. Yes. The Trump campaign is advising him, let him speak, let him have that moment to have a moment that could potentially cement and voters mind a question about his age or his ability to do and serve four more years in office. [19:50:06] But the reverse is also true that Biden has points and lines that he does also want to get out that he couldn't really get out in that first lets debate the last time. So those are the two things to also keep an eye on. HUNT: Let's also not forget that Trump wasn't just doing this all by himself, right? I mean, Biden has shown a willingness to engage and be aggressive in moments like this. He just did it in State of the Union when there were protesters on the floor of the House of Representatives and you saw him do it in the debate with Chris Wallace. I mean, you don't -- we wouldn't have come away with that thinking that Trump it was a train wreck for Trump. If Biden hadn't also been there and demonstrated that he wasn't being run over by the guy, but instead presenting a potentially more presidential cons. BURNETT: So, Evan, you know, when we're talking -- Kasie talking here about Biden, what worked for him in that moment. We could argue that moment where he's like, will you shut up, man, was a moment that made it for him. But he doesn't get a moment like that this time. How does he see it? EVAN OSNOS, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, in a lot of ways, debating with Trump is like what boxers say about fighting a south paw. He's an awkward fighter. He does things that are strange. It's very hard to know how to respond to it. But if you go back and you study the way that Joe Biden does debates, if you go back 40 years, which of course is what I do. If you go back to 1972, he adapts his technique to the person he is debating. So in that first important big debate, he was debating a much older senator, people who he was a guy was much loved, Caleb Boggs in Delaware, and he said, I'm not going to be too aggressive because as he said, it'll feel to people like beating up on everybody's favorite uncle. But in 2012, a completely different moment when he was vice president and he's debating Paul Ryan. Remember, Obama had had a bad first debate and the campaign said you need to go out there and be confident, have some aggression and there he was kind of smiling widely, drove some people a little crazy to see how confident he was. But that's what they needed. And in fact, for the second Obama debate, they told him to take a note from Biden and below little bit more aggressive. So what you're going to see tonight, I think is an effort to try to say, let me get under Trump's skin because when I do that, he behaves badly. BURNETT: And, Audie, we're also this is all happening at an earlier point than ever. CORNISH: It is. That's really important to think about. And I think one of the things I'm so excited about tonight is we're going to get this kind of uninterrupted view of two people who are trying not to look either infirm or unstable. And if you listen to the past -- BURNETT: I love that bar, infirm or unstable. CORNISH: But if you look, listen to the other panel describing like one campaign is teetering, what campaign is this, people here such radically different explanations of how these campaigns are doing. But tonight, you're not going to get any of that. It's not editing something of someone falling down stairs or gaffe or whatever. It's just one long conversation between the two of them in space. And the silence will be deafening when and where there is silence. So I'm really excited to be part of this moment that we are all collectively finally getting to share the facts without having it biased by -- you know, how it's being portrayed or cut up, or served up to you by the algorithm. COLLINS: Well, and Evan makes an important point about the preparation and the advice and how that makes a difference because Obama was rusty when he got out there, we were just talking to Jon Favreau this week about how they were kind of cringing watching him say that he agreed with Romney on Social Security and they were screaming, no, that's not the answer that you're supposed to give, and then how different that was in the second debate, it shows that preparation really does matter. Obviously, Obama is a great speaker. He knows his policy. Biden has been preparing so intensively, he just left Camp David for the first time in like a week and he would -- CORNISH: He has some preparation matters more than the fact that he has debated Trump before. COLLINS: I think they both matter, but for Biden him personally preparation means so much. The reason his State of Union addresses have been so vigorous and powerful is because he rehearses them 1 million times. If you talk to people inside the White House, he just has a comfort level after he's rehearsed it so many times -- (CROSSTALK) CONRISH: They're rehearsed the ones remember, right? (CROSSTALK) CORNISH: And that's the time when he's interacting and playing off of the hecklers, so to speak. BURNETT: So, Evan, Evan, how much time I mean, how all in as he been, when you look at these six to eight days of Kaitlan just referenced that he's been at Camp David literally doing pretty much nothing other than debate prep? OSNOS: Yeah, this is sort of vintage Joe Biden. I mean, if you talk to people who work with him over the years, he will be preparing for even a small speech and look some of this has to do with the stutter. He would go back, he would put the breadth marks and the tick marks for where he was going to take a breath in his speech. Tonight, of course, there's no speech to be referring to, but the same habits really hold and its worth going back if you look at the history as we've all talked about, incumbent presidents tend to do badly in first debates, the exception to that was Bill Clinton because he locked himself up in Chautauqua in Upstate New York for a week, did mock debates over and over again. [19:55:08] And that's where they've been -- that's really the history they're drawing from to prepare for this one. BURNETT: All alright. All stay with us. The final hour before the debate is beginning in just a few moments and John King will be with us once again this time at the magic wall. He'll have the latest on Biden and Trump's polling going into tonight's debate. Plus, more on the states that are so crucial to both candidates. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) COOPER: And welcome to DEBATE NIGHT IN AMERICA. It is 8:00 p.m. here in Atlanta. Tonight, CNN presidential debate now just one hour away. Two candidates sharing a stage only with each other, not a live audience. One of many factors making tonight, unlike most other presidential debates, and some which make what its about to happen here historic. A president debating a former president for the first time ever, two candidates trying to grow their support and a chance tonight to reach tens of millions of people. We've got late reporting from inside the Biden camp on the message they hope the president will deliver. … CNN Live Event / Special Aired June 27, 2024 - 20:00 ET THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED. [20:00:00] ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: …First, CNN's Jeff Zeleny is in the debate spin room where things are already gearing up. So beyond the debate tonight, Jeff, I understand there's a bit of casting call in the works in the very room you're standing in. What's going on? JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORREPONDENT: Anderson, of course, the debate is the main event, but there is a Republican casting call right here in the spin room. And this is what I mean, former President Donald Trump's campaign has invited about a half dozen Republicans to come here after the debate to make their case and defend his performance. And they are the very Republicans who are on his short list to be his potential running mate. North Dakota governor, Doug Burgum will be on hand, as will Ohio senator, J.D. Vance, Florida senator Marco Rubio as well. Those three are largely thought to be his leading contenders. Others will be on hand as well. South Carolina senator, Tim Scott will be here. Florida Congressman Byron Donalds has been here all day. I talked to him a short time ago. He told me he would be willing to change his residency from Florida to avoid conflicting with Donald Trump's Florida residency. And, of course, New York Congresswoman Elise Stefanik also in Atlanta at a watch party. The reason that these potential running mates are here is because they have been participating really for many weeks in what has largely been a tryout in the very open public. They've been flying around the country with the former president on his plane. They've been attending events, all to sort of see his comfort and a familiarity with him, perhaps more than that to see how they defend his record. So right here in the spin room could be the final stages of the casting call for his Republican running mate. In just 20 days, that person will give a speech in Milwaukee at the Republican National Convention. COOPER: All right. ZELENY: Anderson? COOPER: Jeff Zeleny, thanks very much. Back with the panel, but I want to start with John King, who's moved over to the Magic Wall. John, with about an hour to go until the start of the debate, just level - give us a level set on the current state of the race. JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: An hour to the debate, Anderson, eighteen and a half weeks till Election Day. This is how the last one ended. An overwhelming, convincing Electoral College win for Joe Biden and a big win in the popular vote by seven million votes. That's how the last one ended. We are in a very different race tonight. First, let me pull up just where we are from a national polling perspective. Forgive me for turning my back. I just want to stretch this out. These are national polls, right? I'll get the state by state in a minute. But if you look at the national polls, no clear leader we call this because it's 49-47, so that's pretty close. But Donald Trump ahead of Joe Biden, and this has been pretty static and pretty consistent. Trump in recent days has inched it up just a little bit. So the incumbent president walks on that stage tonight a little bit behind. Close, though, in the national polls. But that's not how elections are won, presidential elections are won. If you do a state by state battleground look right now at the polling, I've been doing a lot of traveling. I can tell you anecdotally, it backs up that polling. Donald Trump, not huge leads, but he's ahead in Pennsylvania. He's ahead a little bit in Michigan. He's ahead a little bit in Wisconsin. He's ahead here in Georgia. He's ahead a little bit in Arizona. And he's ahead a little bit in Nevada. Now, again, some of these polls are two points. Some of them are five points. They're all very close, some even within the margin of error. So the statisticians out there are arguing a little bit what I'm saying. But Donald Trump has momentum in the battleground states where it's won. So if that held up, anything close to that held up, that's your 2020 map. It would look more like 2016, where maybe Donald Trump might still lose the popular vote. But those were states, five of those six he won against Hillary Clinton in 2016. Nevada went for Clinton in 2016, but is leaning Trump's way right now. So that is where we are as the candidates get on stage tonight. Nationally, a tight race. In the battlegrounds, though, it has advantaged Trump. And here's the biggest reason right now. It is simply very difficult, many would argue impossible, for an incumbent to win re-election when only 38 percent of the country. That's a lot of Democrats and Independents saying they disapprove of your job as president. It's 38 percent approval rating for the President right now, Anderson, as he walks onto that debate stage in less than an hour. And he's also in the thirties, mid to high thirties in some of these battleground states. That is an untenable position for an incumbent. I know it seems early, but it's getting late to change that. And he has to change that if he wants to win. COOPER: Yes. John King, thanks very much. Back to the team here in New York. David Axelrod, I mean, you think about the last election, Joe Biden had a convincing win, but in a number of states, I mean, those battleground states, I mean, Wisconsin was like 20,000 votes. DAVID AXELROD, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Forty-five thousand votes across three states, Wisconsin, Arizona ... COOPER: That would - that's sort of the difference between having Trump as the President now or Joe Biden. AXELROD: Exactly, yes. I mean, the 7 million that Biden won by nationally is - was irrelevant. It's how you, you know, how you get to that 270. Right now, he has a hard task because the places where he has to win are Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, Michigan. He's behind in all of them. The other states are more difficult because they have larger numbers of minority voters who aren't giving him the same numbers that they gave him before. So he, in some ways he has to pull an inside straight in order to get to 270. And that's, you know, that is the thing to keep an eye on. SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: And that's only on the existing map as we knew it in the last election. [20:05:03] Virginia is on the board. Minnesota is on the board. The Republicans think New Mexico is on the board. There is a possibility here that this map of states gets larger and Joe Biden is defending even more territory than we already think. Just look at the regions, the Sun Belt from Nevada all the way over across the southern United States to the eastern seaboard. It looks like it is getting away. And to your point, he's got one road. And right now, in those northern tier states, Donald Trump has something going on and Pennsylvania, David, is the pivotal one. And if he doesn't win Pennsylvania, he cannot win the presidency. DAVID URBAN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, I'll just say real quickly, in '16 and '20, the Trump campaign was behind the entire race, okay? We were never ahead in the polls. Not one poll. And so for us to be ahead, for Trump campaign to be ahead at this point ... COOPER: Yes. URBAN: ... is really, really - should be really scary (INAUDIBLE) ... UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) go ahead, Van. VAN JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Look, partly you get the benefit that we've had the stupidest summer of politics ever. We had court TV all summer long, basically making you guys a martyr and we didn't talk about ... URBAN: Oh, no, you guys made us martyr. JONES: ... no. Hey, listen, I Donald Trump's behavior ... KATE BEDINGFIELD, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Probably shouldn't have committed (INAUDIBLE) ... JONES: Exactly, maybe avoiding all those crimes might have been helpful. URBAN: I don't know. JONES: My point is we had court TV all summer. We didn't talk about anything that actually matters and gave you guys a chance to rally. This might be your high watermark. Wait till we get a chance to talk about real stuff. Like, for instance, this idea about democracy is a big deal. It's not some abstract thing. You got a 900-page playbook called Project 2025, I hope they ask about, they talk about how he's going to replace half of the civil service with loyalists. He's going to impound money, take money from Congress where it wants to, these guys are - he has a nutty program. He's not been asked one question about who had the dumbest summer in politics. This is a reset button (INAUDIBLE) ... URBAN: But you're the person that says, correct me, Van, when your check engine light comes on, you don't have a thousand bucks. You don't care about any of that stuff. JONES: Hey, listen, democracy is important. The economy is important, lots of stuff is important. You guys got a big boost because you had to rally around your guy because you thought he was under trouble. There's no more trials. Now we're going to put Donald Trump on trial for his record. BEDINGFIELD: But - and of ... AXELROD: I agree with you that he got - it was incredible, but Donald Trump has gotten a boost out of the indictments. He got, you know, he got help among his base through his conviction. I mean, if I were him, I'd go knock over a gas station. That might (INAUDIBLE) ... BEDINGFIELD: Well, but the issue he has here, right, is with suburban voters with moderate voters. And the message that he's delivering has consistently been, we'll see what he does tonight, but the message he's delivered has consistently been about himself, about retribution. He's really struggled on this question of abortion. He really has not been able to articulate an argument that lands with suburban voters, with women voters. So, you know, starting tonight, which I would argue is sort of the starting gun here, as we know, more people are going to tune in tonight. URBAN: True. True. BEDINGFIELD: They have tuned into any other moment ... URBAN: Go, go, go, Kate. Preach it. BEDINGFIELD: ... they have tuned into any other moment in this campaign. And this is an opportunity for Joe Biden to reach those voters who are going to ultimately decide this election. ALYSSA FARAH GRIFFIN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, and that is the theory of the case for the Biden folks is that people are not paying attention yet. But what he needs to be able to do tonight is answer the question on some of these issues that Donald Trump has dominated on border and the economy are the number one and two issues for Americans across the board. Donald Trump has a message, but Joe Biden needs to be able to say, I made the most conservative compromise on border security in decades, and Donald Trump held it up because he wanted it to be a campaign issue. Can he articulate that? Can he make that something (INAUDIBLE) ... AXELROD: Well, that - and that fits into the larger theme, which is I'm fighting for you. Donald Trump is always fighting for Donald. JENNINGS: I think fighting on immigration ... (CROSSTALK) AXELROD: Yes, I think it's the wrong (INAUDIBLE) ... JENNINGS: ... if he runs, if, you know, he says, look, I set this barn on fire for three and a half years and ran in here with a water gun. URBAN: Put it out. JENNINGS: It's not the correct ground. (CROSSTALK) AXELROD: He's going to get the question, Scott. The question is how do he handle it. ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR: I agree with Scott to a degree that I'm not sure immigration is the best issue for him broadly with the electorate and even with his base. JENNINGS: Yes. PHILLIP: His base is not exactly thrilled with him on that issue. It's tricky with Hispanic voters. But honestly, when it comes to Joe Biden, the moments that I think the Democrats are the happiest with him are, for example, the state of the union when he has a moment and he's going to need a moment tonight. He is going to need a moment that is not about policy necessarily, but about how he handles that stage. And that sounds superficial ... (CROSSTALK) PHILLIP: It's crucial for solidifying the base, which is before he even gets to the point of peeling away suburban voters from Donald Trump. He has got to get his people in line. JENNINGS: You know what's great, it's almost July. BEDINGFIELD: Can I just say quickly on (INAUDIBLE) ... JENNINGS: It's almost July and you're out here talking about the President, incumbent president needing to solidify his base, that is crazy to me ... AXELROD: One point, though ... (CROSSTALK) JENNINGS: ... but you're exactly right. AXELROD: One point on this ... PHILLIP: But that is exactly where we are, yes. AXELROD: ... (INAUDIBLE) though, is you mentioned he has problems with his base on immigration. What was interesting about that Siena poll yesterday was actually Hispanics thought Trump was more - was preferable on immigration. JENNINGS: On the border. (CROSSTALK) PHILLIP: Yes. Yes. [20:10:03] AXELROD: So, but this idea that he's going to talk to voters who haven't plugged in yet, some of that may be true. A lot of these disengaged voters aren't going to watch this debate on TV. They're going to watch it through social media. And this thing is going to get sliced and diced ... JENNINGS: Yes. AXELROD: ... all night long. So these moments become very, very big. BEDINGFIELD: And also remember, can I just say quickly ... PHILLIP: That's right, not just immigration ... BEDINGFIELD: ... he doesn't ... PHILLIP: ... on almost every issue, Donald Trump is leading Joe Biden on those issues. So that's not just an immigration issue. AXELROD: Yes. Yes. BEDINGFIELD: But I also would say, you know, he doesn't have to win the debate on immigration. He doesn't have to win the race on immigration. He has to mitigate some of the damage of immigration. AXELROD: Yes. He could absolutely ... BEDINGFIELD: He has to deliver a strong message tonight. He has to have a strong rebuttal. AXELROD: Yes. BEDINGFIELD: But he is not going to win the race on the back of the argument about immigration, so there are many other ... COOPER: I also just want to point that ... BEDINGFIELD: ... many other issues that are just as important to the swing voters who are going to decide (INAUDIBLE) ... COOPER: I just want to point out for our viewers, nobody on this stage has any idea about what the questions are going on to be, including myself. JENNINGS: Oh, you guys didn't get the (INAUDIBLE), anyway, I guess I have won on you now, Anderson. GRIFFIN: I just wanted to briefly say, so I rewatched both of the 2020 debates and Joe Biden ran as a centrist. He performed as a centrist Democrat. If he is actually trying to appeal to his base tonight, he's losing the suburbs, he's losing the people he needs to win over in that (INAUDIBLE) ... PHILLIP: And just to be clear, I'm not saying ... GRIFFIN: No. PHILLIP: ... he needs to pander to his base. All I'm saying is that the base has a lack of enthusiasm problem and they want to see a Joe Biden that they can be excited and happy about voting for. And some of that is on the (INAUDIBLE) ... COOPER: But I got to (INAUDIBLE) ... URBAN: (INAUDIBLE) centrist Joe Biden make that - make it happen? COOPER: Also, the list of things ... JONES: (INAUDIBLE) ... COOPER: ... it's interesting listening to you all, because the list of things that you all are saying Joe Biden needs to do is a very long, like the list of things that the former president needs to do is very small. JENNINGS: (INAUDIBLE) it's almost like he has to change the whole game. AXELROD: No, but I ... PHILLIP: He is the incumbent president. And yes, the list of things Joe Biden has to do tonight is long. It's longer because when you are the incumbent, you have more - you're on a more defensive posture than you are. If you're the President who was the President four years ago and people basically forgotten (INAUDIBLE) ... COOPER: Which was the advantage that Biden had four years ago. (CROSSTALK) URBAN: (INAUDIBLE) John King, our absent colleague, has the correct analogy. Bending steel ... (CROSSTALK) URBAN: That's an 80-year-old Joe Biden is going to do. JONES: (INAUDIBLE) this is, part of what's going on, this is not - it's not a left wing period. It's not a right wing period, it's a turbulent volatile period. And people out there are hurting and uncertain because of the things that we are all concerned about. I think you are right. If we if he tries to hit a laundry list of all these different things, that's not going to be a good debate for Biden. What Biden's got to do is remind people why we liked him in the first place, that he actually gives a damn, that he's a serious man. AXELROD: Yes. JONES: That he takes these issues seriously, that he's actually trying to help people, not just himself. And if he can pull that off and get a moment, like you said, Abby, then I think we can use this as a reset moment. Right now, you are correct, Scott. This thing is in the toilet and starting to swirl. But that is tonight. That is before the debate. That is before the debate. URBAN: Joe Biden (INAUDIBLE) everybody to vote for him, because he was a benign Democrat ... JONES: Still is. URBAN: ... that just - he convinced somebody, please, I'm going to unite ... AXELROD: No, no, you watch the debate from two - from four years ago ... URBAN: No, but at the primary (INAUDIBLE) ... AXELROD: ... he turned these questions. That's what he has to do tonight. He has to take these questions. It's not that he comes out with a laundry list. The moderators are going to have a list. He has some sense, even though no one knows what the questions are, what they're going to hit on. They're certainly going to hit on immigration. They're certainly going to hit on abortion. They're going to hit on the economy. COOPER: He's a good (INAUDIBLE) ... AXELROD: And the question is, how do you take those questions and put Trump on the defense? JENNINGS: Listen, the moment you all are all talking about that he needs tonight that I also agree that he needs, by the way, this may be the last chance he gets to have it. I'm not convinced they're going to debate again. COOPER: Yes. JENNINGS: They may never meet each other or see each other ever again. It's late June. I know the election is still far away, but we made - the history of tonight and why you have to watch this tonight is this may be the last ... AXELROD: The entire 90 minutes? JENNINGS: ... best chance for Joe Biden to do something dramatic enough to get out of the toilet that you just mentioned. COOPER: Yes. JENNINGS: Thirty eight percent approval, losing in the swing states. He's got one chance, one chance. BEDINGFIELD: And it's also maybe the moment that Donald Trump says something that is so off putting and unpalatable to swing voters that he takes ... JENNINGS: Maybe. BEDINGFIELD: ... his campaign for the rest of the (INAUDIBLE) ... PHILLIP: I think that's a very real possibility. JONES: And I'm betting on Joe ... (CROSSTALK) BEDINGFIELD: Yeah, the stakes are high for both of them. JONES: I'm betting on Joe. PHILLIP: That's a very real possibility for Donald Trump. I mean, I - all of this being said, Trump is the wildcard here. He is the one who tends to have a hard time controlling himself. And the number one task for Joe Biden is going to be to, in small ways, not spend all his time to do that, but provoke Trump into being himself on that stage ... JONES: Yes. PHILLIP: ... and not being the guy who rehearsed for weeks and weeks. JONES: Abby, if the real Joe Biden comes through, I think it's going to be great. And if the real Donald Trump comes through, I think it's going to be great for Joe Biden. BEDINGFIELD: And I think this point is so important that what Trump needs to do is essentially not be himself for 90 minutes and play somebody that he is not for 90 minutes. Do we think he's capable of that? I haven't seen (INAUDIBLE) ... URBAN: Well, only three minutes at a time. I think. (CROSSTALK) PHILLIP: Got to kind of break it down into three to five minutes time. [20:15:00] COOPER: With just about 45 (INAUDIBLE) time, the main event, we have new reporting on what the Biden camp hopes to accomplish tonight. Also, California governor, Gavin Newsom, a Biden surrogate, joins us as our CNN debate night rolls on. We'll be right back. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) [20:19:05] COOPER: With 40 minutes to go until the first debate between a president and former president, there is new reporting from inside the Biden team. CNN's MJ Lee has that, joins us now. So I understand President Biden's team believes tonight is a opportunity for his to try to dispel concerns over his age. MJ LEE, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Anderson. The Biden campaign knows that they have a really stubborn problem to fix, and that is that too many Americans are tuned out of the election. Too many voters, including persuadable voters who could really be key in deciding this election are simply not paying attention to the news. And they know that that means that a lot of people, the impression that they have of Biden right now, are coming from and being shaped by these five-, 10-, 15-second clips that you see on YouTube or social media, TikTok, and that a lot of the times, these clips can be unflattering, particularly as we've seen the former President Donald Trump, and his allies try to paint the President as feeble and senile. [20:20:03] And they believe that tonight is going to be one of their best opportunities yet to try to shatter some of those impressions. They want to reach voters who wouldn't typically tune in to a full speech or an event featuring the President, and they believe that many Americans are going to want to tune in to most, if not all, of the 90 minutes of the debate tonight. And the hope for the Biden campaign is that at the end of the night, many voters will have seen what aides insist is a vigorous 81-year-old man who is fully capable of carrying out the intense duties that come with the presidency. And, Anderson, we have been reporting all week on what has been going on at Camp David, on the debate preparations. They have been refining their message, refining their vision, going through the mock debates and really preparing for every version of Donald Trump that could come to the debate stage tonight. But those preparations are all over, and it is now entirely on President Biden and President Biden alone to try to execute on everything that he and his team have been working on over the past week. COOPER: Yes. MJ Lee, thank you. Erin, back to you. ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: All right, Anderson. And with me now is the California governor and Biden supporter, Gavin Newsom. And, Gov. Newsom, I appreciate your time. GOV. GAVIN NEWSOM (D-CA): Great to be with you. BURNETT: So you came here to Atlanta to support the President. I want to start just with sort of the protocol here, because there's been this emerging reporting about something that may not seem important but is and it's the handshake. It's when they both walk out and do you shake or do you not shake? And apparently, he's considering not shaking Trump's hand. NEWSOM: Yes. BURNETT: Trump's also considering it or is it a mistake if they don't? NEWSOM: I like people shaking hands. I like civility. We're all, you know, at the end of the day, we all want to be loved. We all need to be loved. We want to be protected, connected, respected. There's humanity here. There's also respect to President of the United States, I think Trump should shake Biden's hand. BURNETT: And Biden should ... NEWSOM: I'd like to - but look, if we're getting into this nitty- gritty, we've run out of punditry pre-debate. BURNETT: Well, I mean, the - but we know the optics matter and part of the reason they matter ... NEWSOM: Optics. BURNETT: ... Governor, is because so many people are watching just for ... NEWSOM: Yes. BURNETT: ... what MJ Lee's saying. They want to see that the President of the United States is a sound mind, that he isn't feeble. NEWSOM: Yes. BURNETT: That he - that, you know ... NEWSOM: I also want to see someone ... BURNETT: ... people are watching for that. NEWSOM: Yes. And look, you want someone who's also confident, walks in. President Biden is confident. BURNETT: Yes. NEWSOM: He's got a record and he's got a vision for the future, so walking in and confidently shaking a hand. I think our kids are watching as well. I'd like to - I prefer a world like that. That's personal. That's not me talking about the kids. BURNETT: Okay, but you have spent time with him. You and I were just talking. I was with him in Wisconsin ... NEWSOM: Yes. BURNETT: ... weeks ago, but you were with him last week in L.A. ... NEWSOM: Yes. BURNETT: ... at that rally ... NEWSOM: Yes. BURNETT: ... where that video went viral, where President Obama kind of took his arm and took him off the stage. So you were there. NEWSOM: Yes, it's the weaponization of these clips. It was ridiculous. BURNETT: That's not what happened? NEWSOM: I was with him for hours and hours on the photo line with President Obama. He had just flown back from the G7. He had a stopover, barely slept. No one, no one, no one could have kept that schedule. He did a wonderful job in private with all the donors, with surrogates, did an amazing job on stage. As I said, I was four feet away. That was ridiculous. And it goes to the weaponization of the moment and the situational nature of politics at this moment. But I get it. Those things matter. We've got to confront those. We've got to be aggressive in that response. Tonight's that opportunity. BURNETT: All right. So immigration most certainly will be a topic tonight. NEWSOM: Unquestionably. BURNETT: All right. We've just learned that border crossings are down since (INAUDIBLE) ... NEWSOM: Forty percent. BURNETT: Down 40 percent. There's still about 2,000 a day. NEWSOM: Yes. BURNETT: Earlier this month, there were eight Tajik nationals, as you know, who were arrested. NEWSOM: Yes. BURNETT: They were arrested as they had gotten as far as L.A. ... NEWSOM: Yes. BURNETT: ... Philadelphia and New York, and they were arrested because the FBI had concern about an imminent attack in at least one of those cities. NEWSOM: Right. BURNETT: How does the President defend that? NEWSOM: Well, I'm the governor of the larger - largest border state in America, which has the largest land port in the Western Hemisphere. It's not an issue that intellectually I'm curious about. It's one we live every single day. I put the National Guard down at the border. I've been an advocate for the bipartisan border deal that President Biden negotiated that was advanced and included, by the way, interestingly, $650 million dollars to the border wall, 4,300 asylum officers, 1,500 Border Patrol members, as well as 10,000 new detention beds and Trump killed it and his surrogates killed it. Speaker Johnson killed it. They had the opportunity to address it. So Biden did what he needed to do with the EO and it's already proven to create results. But we need something more than just border reform. We need comprehensive immigration reform. BURNETT: All right. So but on this front, I mean, I just have these Tajik nationals again. NEWSOM: Yes. BURNETT: And the FBI had actually wanted to monitor them and figure out what their networks were. They weren't able to do that because they were so worried that there was an imminent attack. That's at least what they're what they're telling us. NEWSOM: But it goes to a broader issue of the border. It's been politicized. The day the President got into office, he put out a comprehensive border strategy. The Republicans wanted nothing to do with it. BURNETT: There have been 7 million illegal border crossings since he took office. NEWSOM: Exactly right. Exactly right. BURNETT: Seven million people. NEWSOM: That's right. BURNETT: Is that not his failure too? NEWSOM: I think it's the failure of Congress to work with the President of the United States. The President put out a plan and responsibility executive to put out a plan and they refuse to negotiate. They refuse to take action. And two of the biggest cowards were people like Lindsey Graham, people like Marco Rubio were part of the gang of eight in 2013. [20:25:03] Now the courage of their conviction to work with Democrats to address this issue. The President of the United States was willing to do that. They said no. And he still stuck with it, had a bipartisan deal that he negotiated that addressed a lot of their concerns. He moved farther than most. And Trump refused to do it because he wants it to be an issue tonight. He wants it to be an issue over the next many nights through this campaign for political benefit, period, full stop. BURNETT: But those 7 million people ... NEWSOM: That's right. BURNETT: ... President Biden - I understand what you're saying about the bill and that bill would have done something about it. I hear you. But then the buck stops with him, and he could have done something much sooner, he could have done this EO ... NEWSOM: (INAUDIBLE) ... BURNETT: ... he didn't and people came over. We don't know exactly when those Tajik nationals came over. We don't know who else came over. I mean, do you have a fear about some of those people among those 7 million? NEWSOM: As you say, I'm a border state governor. I put close to 400 National Guard down at the border to address - counter drug issues, to address the issue of fentanyl and human trafficking and smuggling at the border. I take that very seriously. We've put migrant facilities together. That should be the job of the federal government to support those efforts. BURNETT: Okay. NEWSOM: Republicans in Congress refuse to support those efforts and continue to play politics. Of course, we're all at the end of the day. Society becomes how we behave, we are behaviors. Democrats, Republicans, members of Congress, past and current. The last comprehensive immigration reform was someone familiar to Californians and that was Ronald Reagan in 1986. I would like the Republican Party be more like Reagan, a little less like Trump. BURNETT: So obviously you work with Biden. You're supporting him. You're here as a surrogate tonight. You also worked with Trump and you got along with him. NEWSOM: Yes. BURNETT: And you have both talked about it. I'll play for everyone. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We have a good relationship. We're obviously from different sides of the spectrum, but we have a very good relationship. I used to get along great with him. You know, when I was president. I had along - you know, got along really good with Gavin. TUCKER CARLSON, FORMER FOX NEW HOST: Wait, you got along with Gavin Newsom? TRUMP: I did. I really did. He was always very nice to me. Said the greatest things. NEWSOM: Every single direct request that he was capable of meeting, he has met. I can only speak for myself, but I have to be complimentary. Otherwise I would be simply lying to you. It was incredible. He would play no politics during COVID with California, played none whatsoever. (END VIDEO CLIP) NEWSOM: It was anomalous. BURNETT: So could you work with him again? NEWSOM: Oh, we'll see. He's calling me Newscum. He's really elevated. I think my seventh grade friend called me Newscum. That's the elevation of the maturity of Donald Trump as he's gotten older. But look, I'll work with anyone that wants to work to advance the cause of this country, my state, and the world we're trying to build. That goes back to the civility of shaking someone's hand. I'm just not that person. Open hand, not closed fist. We vehemently disagree with one another. I live in the most un-Trump state in America. We were involved in 122 lawsuits against the Trump administration. But when it came to COVID, when it came to wildfires and floods ... BURNETT: He delivered for you. NEWSOM: ... and - well, he delivered because we had to go a long way to kiss the proverbial ring. That's the difference between this guy. And that's what you're seeing. It's a bit of a kleptocracy of sorts. That's what he's running right now. Look at the folks that are doing these fundraisers for him, it's all about what they can carve out to get in return for themselves. Trump, yes, is I know it's a talking point for us, all about himself. Everybody knows that, including his supporters. But he's carving out those with means, including making deals for a billion dollars on oil and gas and I'll take care of your regulations in public. This is corruption of the highest order. And we will always call that out. At the same time, I'll work with anyone that will work with us. BURNETT: All right. Gov. Newsom, I appreciate your time. Thank you very much. NEWSOM: Good to be with you. BURNETT: And next, we are just now learning more about the whereabouts of the woman who is not in this picture, the former first lady, Melania Trump. Where is she? (COMMERCIAL BREAK) [20:32:44] COOPER: First Lady Jill Biden is here in Atlanta for tonight's debate. Nothing unusual about that. Spouses traditionally attend big debates. Tonight, that tradition is being broken by the former first lady. CNN's Kristen Holmes is back with new reporting on that. What have you heard, Kristen? KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Anderson. When Donald Trump takes the stage today, notably missing nearby to give him support will be former First Lady Melania Trump. Now, there have been a lot of speculation about whether or not she would attend this debate, particularly given just how critical this moment is for the campaign. The campaign itself was really cagey about answering questions about whether or not she would be here. But as we saw when Donald Trump's plane landed here from Florida, he got out with of the plane with a slew of different advisers, but no Melania Trump. Now, there's some reasons why this isn't that surprising. Just remember, since he launched his presidential campaign two years ago, she's attended only one actual campaign public event, and that was the launching of his third presidential bid at her Mar-a-Lago. And while his advisers and aides insist that she is supportive of him, of his political ambitions, that she is just more focused on raising bear, and this of course has raised questions as to why she's not out there on the campaign trail, particularly when you see First Lady Jill Biden, who has become an active surrogate for her husband out there. Today, she was even talking to donors visiting a campaign headquarters. So very different vibe, if you will, from both of these two women as we head into this campaign season. COOPER: Kristen Holmes, thanks very much. I want to go to Michigan to the battleground state where voter reaction to what happens tonight will be critical for both campaigns. Our Laura Coates is with the group of undecided voters who are going to be watching and reacting to the debate. What are you hearing, Laura? LAURA COATES, CNN ANCHOR: It's so critical right now. I am at Macomb Community College in Warren, Michigan, right outside of Detroit. This is a critical district, a critical county. Remember, Michigan more broadly went to Trump in 2016. It was flipped by Biden in 2020. But this particular county went overwhelmingly for Trump later on. And so now this is what you're talking about, a group of people here who are undecided. It's pretty evenly split, those who are leading towards Biden, those leading towards Trump, but largely undecided about what they're going to do. This is the audience that these two candidates want to be speaking to. Those who could be persuaded, those who could -- they could change their minds, it's all right here. [20:35:04] And they're going to have the opportunity to tell you how they're feeling by -- at the end of the debate, we're going to be asking them what they thought throughout the debate. We're going to capture on this device I'm holding in my hand. Each of them has it in their hands as well. When they have an agreement with something that's being said, they're going to dial it to the right. If they disagree, to the left. It'll be tracked over the course of the debate and we're going to have line graphing to show you, per identification of the party they're leaning towards, how they're actually seeing these issues. This is so critical. This is so consequential. I've had a chance to talk to a number of them and it runs the gamut what they are concerned about. Anything from immigration to the age of the candidates, for veterans, what's happening in foreign policy, the deficit, Medicaid, Medicare, retirees. It really runs the spectrum. This is the kind of room that these two candidates want to speak to. Let's see if it resonates. COOPER: All right, we'll come back to you after the debate, Laura. Thanks so much. Erin, back to you. BURNETT: All right, Anderson. And look, it's pretty fascinating when you think about it, but what's that group, you know, finding those undecided voters. There are more of them, maybe, than many people believe. CHRIS WALLACE, CNN HOST: Well, the general term of art at this point, or the general thought is, that it's 6 percent of the voters in six states who are going to decide this election. That 94 percent of voters are -- we -- are already settled -- BURNETT: Yes. WALLACE: -- and 44 states are already settled, and that it's only six swing states, three in the north, three in the south, in the southwest and about 6 percent -- and they're called the deciders. I mean, they even got a name at this point. And interestingly enough, there was a poll in the New York Times that indicated on the issue of democracy at this point, they trust Trump more than Biden. Now, I think democracy means different things to different people. BURNETT: Fair. WALLACE: I think a lot of it is, how's the country running? Right track, wrong track. But it is a very small sliver of people. You know, maybe instead of all these big national debates and all these national ads, maybe we should just get those couple of million people in a room and have them decide it all for us and be done with it. BURNETT: It is amazing though, Audie, that democracy is something that can also be flipped. That it is equally important to some Trump voters as Biden voters and they see it the opposite way. AUDIE CORNISH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Or, I mean, one thing that happened during COVID is because there were changes to some election laws to accommodate the pandemic. People -- there are people who thought that went too far and criticized that as -- in terms of election integrity. I do want to say this is such a great state to be in because in Michigan you have like these amazing students, right, and university spaces. You also have like a robust labor union kind of community. You have that suburban mom community that everyone's talking about you. It's also has rural elements. It's really like a great state and a key one in the so called Blue Wall that at one point went to Trump and then Biden got it back. And these are all constituencies that both of these candidates are aiming their messages. WALLACE: And I just quickly, I got to say, Macomb County, 1980, that's where Ronald Reagan went in a very democratic state, and he went after the Reagan Democrats. These were blue collar, the people on the assembly lines, and they flipped from the Democrats and Jimmy Carter to Ronald Reagan. And that was a real sign that Reagan was going to win the election by alliance law (ph). KASIE HUNT, CNN ANCHOR & CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: They're today Trump voters in Michigan, that same group of people. I mean, if you walk -- I mean, I -- in 2016, I went to union halls with Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump, and they seem to love both of those people. And none of them really were cottoning on to Hillary Clinton in either one of those scenarios. And I think you're absolutely right about how it kind of gives us all of these little microcosms here. And I do wonder, you know, what is -- I think one of the things that is a big question here when you ask voters to rank their priorities, the economy is always at the top. BURNETT: Yes. HUNT: But then you're also seeing all of these people who have continued to vote for Nikki Haley in the Republican primaries, even after she dropped out of the race. And I just keep coming back to wondering whether, is it the economy for those voters? Is that really why they were doing that? And how are they balancing the displeasure that they clearly -- these people are Republicans, right? They've been -- many of them have been voting Republican their whole life. Switching to vote for a Democrat would be a huge, huge ask. But that said, they're clearly not happy with their now presumptive nominee in Donald Trump. And which one of those things is going to win out, I think, is maybe end up being the story of the election. KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN HOST: Well, and how Donald Trump makes an appeal to those voters, a lot of them Nikki Haley voters, a lot also women voters. That's always been the question of how he appeals to suburban women and what that looks like. And you hear about the voters and their issues, but also, you know, a lot of this is the visuals and what that looks like. And one thing that was in the report before Laura was speaking with those voters from Kristin Holmes, and that we all noticed as soon as Donald Trump got off of his plane earlier was that he was alone and he had staff with him, but he was not accompanied by the former First Lady Melania Trump. [20:40:09] That's pretty striking. The fact that she is not present at this debate tonight, based on what we've known so far, and we've been texting officials about this, that she's not here. She was at all of the debates before, and yes, there is no audience here, but there is still a lot of Trump allies and surrogates who will be in the room right off of the stage, where each candidate has their respective rooms. After Access Hollywood and that tape came out and rocked the 2016 campaign, just days later on that Sunday, Melania Trump came with Donald Trump to the debate and walked in wearing all hot pink. And it was kind of this moment where everyone, she was standing by her husband and coming in with him. And she always chooses moments like this to send a message, whether it's the State of the Union or big moments for him. And it's -- it is kind of interesting that she is not here tonight. We will see Dr. Jill Biden, we do expect on stage at the end of the debate to greet President Biden. BURNETT: What do you think about Melania's lack of presence here? WALLACE: I don't think it matters much. I mean, in the sense, I think there are certain things that are baked into the price of the stock on the market. I think people understand this to be an odd relationship. You know, we just had Donald Trump on trial and convicted for paying hush money to a porn star at a time when Melania had just had their baby Barron. BURNETT: Barron. WALLACE: So I'm not sure that connubial bliss on the debate stage is something that is going to sell very well at this point anyway. I, you know, I just don't think it matters. BURNETT: You think audience people don't even expect it. It's not as if -- CORNISH: I want to write down the word connubial, that was like -- BURNETT: It was very well used. CORNISH: I love it. BURNETT: Talk about vocabulary (INAUDIBLE). WALLACE: It's a frequent part of my vocabulary. CORNISH: But I guess that that's the -- that's something that's really on my mind is how much has changed over and over. We keep talking about how much is the same for these candidates, but a lot has happened since they were on stage together, whether it be COVID, the Me Too movement with the incredible burst of labor energy that's happened over the last two years. Obviously, the war in Gaza and the political energy that's churned up on the progressive side. So there's a lot of -- even though it's the same two guys, we're different. And there's a lot of dynamics that have changed. COLLINS: Also, January 6th, Donald Trump and Joe Biden have not shared the debate stage. And that's another thing to watch for tonight, is what Donald Trump is prepared to say about that. But also President Biden himself, what he's prepared to say. CORNISH: How he talked about it. Yes. COLLINS: This is an issue that President Biden obviously cares about so much. He's delivered speeches on the anniversary of January 6 and come out and talk about that. It won searing message on the anniversary of it. He said that Trump had a knife at democracy's throat. I mean, it's a speech that we've never seen in presidential history before someone going after their predecessor so directly. And this will be the first time for Joe Biden to confront Donald Trump about it on stage. And that's a moment to certainly watch to see how Donald Trump defends himself on it, but also how President Biden talks about it. BURNETT: And also, Kasie, I'm sure they both have spent time thinking about if they are presented with a question on pardons. HUNT: Aha -- BURNETT: On both sides. HUNT: Yes. BURNETT: I mean, right? One has to expect if you are Trump, you'll be asked about Hunter Biden. And if you're Biden, you're asked about Trump. HUNT: Indeed. And it is one of those things that kind of puts on on stark display. I mean, look, I think for the president, the sitting president, this is something that -- I mean, they have been very definitive about saying we're not going to do this. Biden has been definitive, I mean, he was even definitive about a commutation. I wonder, I mean, I think there are probably a lot of parents out there who look at that and say, if you had the power to do that, how could you not? You know, so I think that the dynamics there are very layered. You know, I think the Trump question is also one that, you know, pulls, I think, a wider -- pulls the country into focus in that we are -- and I think that big picture, we maybe have not just said this as directly as we should, we are incredibly divided as a country, more than we probably have been in -- I mean, you have to go back to, I think, the 1960s, probably, to find a moment that is as tense as this one. Even though this race has sort of been at this status quo, the volatility that is underneath the surface is just so intense. And this question of pardons, and what may or may not happen to Donald Trump is a question about -- BURNETT: Yes. HUNT: -- the country and our divisions and our potential unity and that is a very, very complicated thing to weigh. BURNETT: And all that on display tonight. And just a quick note, we do have some video just in of the presidential motorcade arriving here at CNN headquarters with less than 15 minutes to go until the debate begins. We will all be right back with some final thoughts. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) [20:48:46] COOPER: We are just over 10 minutes away from the start of the first presidential debate of 2024, the earliest presidential debate ever. And though the candidates may be the same as four years ago, their roles, incumbent and challenger, are reversed. Back with the team here. Van, even though, I mean, both these men have debated before, you say we're going to learn something new about them tonight. JONES: Well, we'll finally understand something. We've kind of been batting back and forth. You know, with Biden, the question is, we're going to learn how much have his debating skills declined. Maybe they haven't declined at all. We're assuming that they have. So that's going to be important. We're going to learn about that. And with Trump, we're going to learn how much has his maturity as a debater improved. We've seen him do crazy stuff as a debater. We've seen him do somewhat smarter. But we're not the only people that care about this. I just want to point that out. The whole world is watching tonight. It's not just about America. You got soldiers on the front line in Ukraine who are listening on radios right now trying to figure out, are they going to have a country after this election? You have people on an island nations with the waters rising wondering if climate policy is going to be thrown in the garbage can in this country. This is a very important moment coming up here. And I think that it's not just these individual points, it's are these, who are these men? Who have they become over the past four years? That's going to be revealed tonight. [20:50:04] PHILLIP: And what are they going to do? JONES: Yes. PHILLIP: -- in the White House if they are there for another four years. I mean I think particularly for Trump, there are a lot of unanswered questions about how he might govern a second time around. What is he going to do on abortion? What is he going to do when it comes to the federal government? What is he going to do on health care on the border? The broad strokes, I think he's operated in the broad strokes at his rallies and in the very friendly interviews that he has done, but this is the moment when we need to get down to brass tacks about what it actually is. And he cannot just be on all sides of the abortion issue. For example -- COOPER: For example. PHILLIP: -- the American people are going to need answers. URBAN: Yes, but I don't think this -- I don't think Americans are looking for a policy debate. You're not going to get it with these very brief answers. This is performative. How do they look? Can they articulate an answer quickly and succinctly and wrap it up in the two minutes they have? That's what people are going to watch. They look like they're on their game. Do they have energy? PHILLIP: But if -- AXELROD: That is true to a point. PHILLIP: But if it takes promises on that stage, it's going to matter to people. AXELROD: That is true to a point, Dave. And certainly for the President, it's very important. But it's not just how he says what he says. It's what he says, and can he -- these issues that you're talking about, can he land punches on Trump and not allow Trump to turn this into a referendum on Biden. And that to me is very key about, you know, how this thing goes. GRIFFIN: Well, and I'm struck by the historic moment that we're in and the whole world is watching. This is simulcast internationally where you have a man who played a role in inciting an insurrection, denied the election result has now been criminally convicted as the first fell in running for president. 18 weeks from now, we may wake up to being president-elect Donald Trump. That's where we're at. And Joe Biden has made his message. It is about preserving what America is an America democracy. Yet he is underperforming. Tonight is the night he has to show up. The stakes are so high. And if he doesn't, there needs to be a real conversation about what's going to -- URBAN: What does it say about the Biden administration? You'll go through that laundry list of horribles, and yet -- FARAH GRIFFIN: That's -- URBAN: -- Donald Trump's ahead. FARAH GRIFFIN: That's my point. JENNINGS: I think it's actually a little bit beyond what you said. Yes, those things were true about Donald Trump that you laid out, but also Joe Biden ran on unity, national unity, and he said he ran because of Charlottesville. And when I think about what you said about our divisions and what kind of a country are we going to have, I think a lot of people are asking themselves tonight, what kind of a country do we have today? You look at the divisions in this country right now. We're having Charlottesville on steroids every day in this country. We've got men and women who are going different directions. We've got college and non-college going different directions. Working class and white collar going different directions. Rural and urban going different directions. The next president may be decided tonight on the CNN stage, and they have a mission to unify this country. JONES: Well -- JENNINGS: Biden ran on it, and he has not done it. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So you're saying that Donald Trump is going to be the -- AXELROD: It's hard to imagine that if people's concern is divisions in this country, that they're going to say we need Donald Trump back. That's a really -- JENNINGS: Do you think Joe Biden has achieved his mission on this? He said it's what he rein (ph). AXELROD: Yes, I think that -- for example, he has worked with Republicans in Congress to do some really important thing. JONES: Infrastructure. AXELROD: He has tried to represent the whole country. I just -- look, Trump has some strengths going into this debate. I think it'll be really interesting if he argues that I'm the guy who can unify this country. BEDINGFIELD: Also -- AXELROD: He's never shown any interest -- URBAN: Only 38 percent of America doesn't believe it, right? I mean, only 38 percent of America think he's doing his job, right? According to the New York Times/Siena poll. BEDINGFIELD: But also the notion that we would blame Joe Biden for putting forward a message about unity, working across the aisle to get significant bipartisan legislation done, including on infrastructure, including on guns and suggest that the solution here is to abandon the notion of unity. And to say, no, in fact, we're going to go back to Donald Trump who is all about division, who stokes the worst of, you know, of White supremacy in this country absolutely stood on the debate stage four years ago. Let's see if we see another moment. But that tonight -- JENNINGS: The worst of white supremacy? BEDINGFIELD: -- stood on the debate stage. JENNINGS: Have you looked at the newspaper the last week? BEDINGFIELD: Would not condemn white supremacists. The notion that going back to that is going to further unify the country. That defies reason. JONES: The lack of division. I want more unity. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. JONES: And I think you know that. On the immigration in particular, which is a sore point now, there was a moment to bring people together and it was Trump that stood in the door. But Biden reached out. We gave away everything we wanted on immigration to try to get a deal. And it was Trump that said, I'd rather leave the border on fire than solve the problem. So I just don't -- I don't think that he's going to be the unifier in chief to point it. FARAH GRIFFIN: But this underscores why six in 10 Americans didn't want this rematch that we're watching right now. That you may like some of what Joe Biden's accomplished, but you think he lacks the leadership credentials. You don't have the confidence going forward. And a Donald Trump, I hear every day from people who can't stand his character. They don't think he's a good guy, but they felt like life was better under him. [20:55:04] Both need to show up today and they need to make themselves appear as though they can be the president and they can make things marginally better than people feel they are today. KING: These are very familiar men -- to the men and women watching around the country, but first impressions matter. Back to Van's point who frames this early on. They're going to argue over 90 minutes about the border, about the cost of living, about the world and Ukraine, about character, about personal, about democracy, about generous. They're going to have all those fights. But coming out of the box, I think who wins the last 80 minutes will have a lot to say about who wins the first 10 minutes by framing what is this about? Why are we here? FARAH GRIFFIN (?): This debate and who doesn't. AXELROD: This is so important because people know what Donald Trump's message is. His message is the world's out of control. Biden's not in command. I'm strong. He's weak. Elect me. That's essentially his message. It hasn't been as clear what the Biden message is. It's coming into focus now. I'm advocating -- I advocate people -- I'm fighting for people. I'm fighting for your future. He's consumed by his past and fighting for himself for vengeance and retribution. How's that going to help you? But he needs to really, really bring it tonight so that when people leave after those 90 minutes, they say, I get it. I get what the argument is, and I'm moved by that argument. JENNINGS: The comparative that people are making, though, and the nostalgia, as some have called it, for Trump, I think comes down to a simple thing for a lot of voters who aren't political junkies, and that is, I kind of like where the country was before COVID. If we hadn't had COVID, that would have been fine. It's over now. And I don't like what Biden is doing. I just like to go back to where I was right before COVID happened. I had money in my pocket. I could buy a house. I could buy a car and go into the grocery store did not give me anxiety. And you know who would the president was? It was Donald Trump. And I think there are a lot of voters who were just thinking, we had a momentary blip in this world, that's over, and we got to get back to where we were when we didn't have daily anxiety. JONES: Well, I -- if you're talking about -- you're talking about the United States of Amnesia. If you're talking about we didn't have daily anxiety, they're going to talk to it. (CROSSTALK) BEDINGFIELD: That was the hallmark of the Trump presidency, was chaos. JONES: But this economic pain, this economic pain that you're talking about is the challenge. It is a challenge. And I do think when people are going into grocery stores, and they're scared to look at the numbers going up -- JENNINGS: Yes. JONES: -- and have them take stuff out the basket and take it back in front of their children. JENNINGS: Yes. JONES: Those things are points of pain. The problem is Donald Trump's proposals would make all that dramatically worse. And, I mean, what you're talking about, a bunch of economists came out and said you would have inflation with a rocket on the back of it if Donald Trump got back in there. And so that's a tougher argument to make, but the idea that you're going to be able to go back in time and have this kind of imaginary wonderful moment where the country was united and everything was great, that never happened. That's mythology That's the United States of Amnesia and -- (CROSSTALK) PHILLIP: But David, you know what, I think that we can't paint too broad of a brush here. One of the reasons why I think Donald Trump has always struggled with suburban women in particular is because of that anxiety, is because they do not believe that he is a uniter. They woke up every morning and wanted to turn the TV off in front of their children. He is -- what is he going to do about that tonight? I think is one of the huge questions that face -- UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. PHILLIP: -- that face him. And, yes, broadly, maybe people are not dissatisfied with where the economy is, but for Trump, that trouble group, it's a problem for them. His temperament, it is a problem for them, that he himself is the source of the anxiety, putting aside the -- KING: I want to follow up on that point because it's a really critical point. Yet, yet, some of those same suburban women are unhappy with Biden's leadership. A lot of them are Republicans who voted for Biden in 2020 because of COVID, because of Trump's chaos, because of all that. It's much harder for a Republican to vote to reelect a Democratic president. So their DNA is Republican and Abby is dead right. They don't want the chaos back, but some of them have become transactional like Trump. He'll close the border. He'll cut my taxes. I'll block all that stuff out. I think the challenge for the president's -- for both of them really, the country's drifting. People are still dealing with COVID. You might think you're not dealing with COVID. Everybody at this table is dealing with COVID. Those of us with kids understand what it's like to deal with the COVID hangover. Then the cost of living thing came in. The American people don't feel there's a North Star. Where are we going? There's nobody saying, it's hard, it's tough, we're going to make some mistakes along the way, but that's where we're going. That's just gone in America right now. If one of them can at least give a spark of that, maybe it changes things. PHILLIP: And this is actually, I think, the other problem for both men. Neither of them are great visionaries about, you know, painting a picture of what is the country supposed to be. And it's hard for them because they both are not the most articulate men in the world. KING: Right. PHILLIP: I don't know how that's going to play out tonight. COOPER: We'll see you tonight. I want to thank everybody here on the panel. The preliminaries are over. The main event is here. We'll be back with complete coverage and analysis later tonight. And with that, let's turn things over to CNN's Jake Tapper and also CNN's Dana Bash for this first presidential debate of 2024 campaign. CNN Live Event / Special Aired June 27, 2024 - 21:00 ET THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED. [21:00:29] JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: We're live from Georgia, a key battleground state in the race for the White House. In just moments, the current U.S. president will debate the former U.S. president as their parties' presumptive nominees, a first in American history. We want to welcome our viewers in the United States and around the world to our studios in Atlanta. This is the CNN presidential debate. DANA BASH, CNN HOST: This debate is being produced by CNN and it's coming to you live on CNN, CNN International, CNN.com, CNN Max, and CNN Espanol. This is a pivotal moment between President Joe Biden and former President Donald Trump in their rematch for the nation's highest office. Each will make his case to the American people with just over four months until Election Day. Good evening. I'm Dana Bash, anchor of CNN's "INSIDE POLITICS" and co- anchor of "STATE OF THE UNION". TAPPER: I'm Jake Tapper, anchor of CNN's "THE LEAD" and co-anchor of 'STATE OF THE UNION". Dana and I will co-moderate this evening. Our job he is to facilitate a debate between the two candidates tonight. Before we introduce them, we wanted to share the rules of the debate with the audience at home. Former President Trump will be on the left side of the screen. President Biden will be appearing on the right. A coin toss determined their positions. Each candidate will have two minutes to answer the question, and one minute each for responses and rebuttals and additional minute for follow-up clarification or response is at the moderator's discretion. BASH: When it's time for our candidate to speak, his microphone will be turned on and his opponent's microphone will be turned off, so if a candidate interrupt when his microphone is muted, he will be difficult to understand for viewers at home. At the end of the debate, each candidate will get two minutes for closing statements. There is no studio audience tonight. Pre-written notes, props, or contact with campaign staff are not permitted during the debate. By accepting our invitation to debate, both candidates and their campaigns agreed to accept these rules. TAPPER: Now, please welcome the 46th of the United States, Joe Biden. JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Good to be here. Thank you. TAPPER: And please welcome the 45th president of the United States, Donald Trump. (MUSIC) TAPPER: Gentlemen, thanks so much for being here. Let's begin the debate. And let's start with the issue that voters consistently say is their top concern, the economy. President Biden, inflation has slowed, but prices remain high. Since you took office, the price of essentials has increased. For example, a basket of groceries that cost $100, then, now costs more than $120. And typical home prices have jumped more than 30 percent. What do you say to voters who feel they are worse off under your presidency than they were under President Trump? BIDEN: We're going to take a look at what I was left when I became president, what Mr. Trump left me. We had an economy that was in freefall. The pandemic are so badly handled. Many people were dying. All he said was it's not that serious, just inject a little bleach in your arm. It'd be all right. The economy collapsed. There were no jobs. Unemployment rate rose to 15 percent. It was terrible. And so, what we had to do is try to put things back together again. That's exactly what we began to do, and created 15,000 new jobs. We brought out in a position where we have 800,000 new manufacturing jobs. But there's more to be done. There's more to be done. Working class people are still in trouble. I come from Scranton, Pennsylvania. I come from household where the kitchen table -- if things weren't able to be met during the month, was a problem. Price of eggs, the price of gas, the price of housing, the price of a whole range of things. That's why I'm working so hard to make sure I deal with those problems, and we're going to make sure that we have reduced the price of housing. We're going to make sure we build to 2 million new units. We're going to make sure we cap rents, so corporate greed can't take over. The combination of what I was left and a corporate greed were the reason why we're in this problem right now. In addition to that, we're in a situation where if you had to take a look at all that was done at his administration, he didn't do much at all. By the time he left, there's -- things have been in chaos, literally chaos. [21:05:03] And so we put things back together. We created, as I said, those jobs. We made sure we had a situation where we now -- we brought down the price of prescription drugs, which is a major issue for many people, to $15 for -- for an insulin shot, as opposed to $400. No senior has to pay more than $200 for any drug, all the drugs they can (inaudible) beginning next year. And the situation is making -- and we're going to make that available to everybody, to all Americans. So we're working to bring down the price of -- around the kitchen table. And that's what we're going to get done. TAPPER: Thank you. President Trump? DONALD TRUMP, (R), FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT AND 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We had the greatest economy in the history of our country. We have never done so well. Every -- everybody was amazed by it. Other countries were copying us. We got hit with COVID. And when we did, we spent the money necessary so we wouldn't end up in a Great Depression, the likes of which we had in 1929. By the time we finished -- so we did a great job. We got a lot of credit for the economy, a lot of credit for the military, and no wars and so many other things. Everything was rocking good. But the thing we never got the credit for and we should have is getting us out of that COVID mess. He created mandates that was a disaster for our country. But other than that, we had -- we had given them back a -- a country where the stock market actually was higher than pre-COVID. And nobody thought that was even possible. The only jobs he created are for illegal immigrants and bounceback jobs, they're bounced back from the COVID. He has not done a good job. He has done a poor job. And inflation's killing our country. It is absolutely killing us. TAPPER: Thank you. President Biden? BIDEN: Well, look, the greatest economy in the world, he's the only one who thinks that, I think. I don't know anybody else who thinks it was great -- he had the greatest economy in the world. And, you know, the fact of the matter is that we found ourselves in a situation where his economy, he rewarded the wealthy. He had the largest tax cut in American history, $2 trillion. He raised the deficit larger than any president has in any one term. He's the only president other than Herbert Hoover who has lost more jobs than he had when he began, since Herbert Hoover. The idea that he did something that was significant. And the military, you know, when he was president, they were still killing people in Afghanistan. And he didn't do anything about that. When he was president, we were still finding ourselves in a position where you had a notion that we were this safe country, the truth is, I'm the only president this century that doesn't have any this -- this decade, any troops dying anywhere in the world, like he did. TAPPER: President Trump, I want to follow up, if I can, you want him -- TRUMP: Am I allowed to respond to him? TAPPER: Well, I'm going to ask you a follow-up. You can do whatever you want with the minute that we give you. I want to follow up. You want to impose a 10 percent tariff on all goods coming into the U.S. How will you ensure that that doesn't drive prices even higher? TRUMP: Not going to drive them higher. It's just going to cause countries that have been ripping us off for years like China and many others, in all fairness to China. It's going to just force them to pay us a lot of money, reduce our deficit tremendously, and give us a lot of power for other things. But he -- he made a statement. The only thing he was right about is I gave you the largest tax cut in history. I also gave you the largest regulation cut in history. And that's why we had all the jobs. And the jobs went down and then they bounced back and he's taking credit for bounceback jobs. You can't do that. He also said he inherited 9 percent inflation. No, he inherited almost no inflation and it stayed that way for 14 months. And then it blew up under his leadership because they spent money like a bunch of people that didn't know what they were doing. And they don't know what they were doing. It was the worst -- probably the worst administration in history. There's never been. And as far as Afghanistan is concerned, I was getting out of Afghanistan, but we were getting out with dignity, with strength, with power. He got out, it was the most embarrassing day in the history of our country's life. TAPPER: President Trump, over the last eight years, under both of your administrations, the national debt soared to record highs. And according to a new non-partisan analysis, President Trump, your administration approved $8.4 trillion in new debt. While so far, President Biden, you've approved $4.3 trillion in new debt. So former President Trump, many of the tax cuts that you signed into law are set to expire next year. You want to extend them and go even further, you say. With the U.S. facing trillion dollar deficits and record debt, why should top earners and corporations pay even less in taxes than they do now? TRUMP: Because the tax cuts spurred the greatest economy that we've ever seen just prior to COVID, and even after COVID. It was so strong that we were able to get through COVID much better than just about any other country. But we spurring -- that tax spurred. Now, when we cut the taxes, as example, the corporate tax was cut down to 21 percent from 39 percent, plus beyond that, we took in more revenue with much less tax and companies were bringing back trillions of dollars back into our country. The country was going like never before. And we were ready to start paying down debt. We were ready start using the liquid gold right under our feet, the oil and gas right under our feet. We were going to have something that nobody else has had. We got hit with COVID. We did a lot to fix it. I gave him an unbelievable situation with all of the therapeutics and all of the things that we came up with, we -- we gave him something great. [21:10:18] Remember, more people died under his administration, even though we had largely fixed it. More people died under his administration than our administration, and we were right in the middle of it. Something which a lot of people don't like to talk about, but he had far more people dying in his administration. He did the mandate, which is a disaster, mandating it. The vaccine went out. He did a mandate on the vaccine, which is the thing that people most objected to about the vaccine. And he did a very poor job, just a very poor job. And I will tell you, not only poor there, but throughout the entire world, we're no longer respected as a country. They don't respect our leadership. They don't respect the United States anymore. We're like a Third World nation between weaponization of his election, trying to go after his political opponent. All of the things he's done. We've become like a Third World nation, and it's a shame. The damage he's done to our country, and I'd love to ask him, and will, why he allowed millions of people to come in here from prisons, jails, and mental institutions to come into our country and destroy our country. TAPPER: President Trump, we will get to immigration later in this block. President Biden, I want to give you an opportunity to respond to this question about the national debt. BIDEN: He had the largest national debt of any president, four-your period, number one. Number two, he got two trillion dollar tax code, benefited the very wealthy. What I'm going to do is fix the taxes. For example, we have a thousand trillionaires in America. I mean, billionaires in America. And what's happening? They're in a situation where they, in fact, pay 8.2 percent in taxes. If they just paid 24 percent or 25 percent, either one of those numbers, they'd raised $500 million, billion dollars, I should say, in a 10-year period. We'd be able to right wipe out his debt. We'd be able to help make sure that all those things we need to do, childcare, elder care, making sure that we continue to strengthen our healthcare system, making sure that we're able to make every single solitary person eligible for what I've been able to do with the COVID. Excuse me, dealing with everything we have to do with more. If -- we finally beat Medicare. TAPPER: Thank you, President Biden. President Trump. TRUMP: Well, he's right. He did beat Medicare. He beat it to death. And he's destroying Medicare because all of these people are coming in. They're putting them on Medicare. They're putting them on Social Security. They're going to destroy Social Security. This man is going to single-handedly destroy Social Security. These millions and millions of people coming in, they're trying to put them on Social Security. He will wipe out Social Security. He will wipe out Medicare. So he was right in the way he finished that sentence. And it's a shame. What's happened to our country in the last four years is not to be believed. Foreign countries, I'm friends with a lot of people. They cannot believe what happened to the United States of America. We're no longer respected. They don't like us. We give them everything they want, and they think we're stupid. They think we're very stupid people. What we're doing for other countries, and they do nothing for us. What this man has done is absolutely criminal. TAPPER: Thank you, President Trump. Dana? BASH: This is the first presidential election since the Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade. This morning, the court ruled on yet another abortion case, temporarily allowing emergency abortions to continue in Idaho, despite that state's restrictive ban. Former President Trump, you take credit for the decision to overturn Roe v. Wade, which returned the issue of abortion to the states. TRUMP: Correct. BASH: However, the federal government still plays a role in whether or not women have access to abortion pills. They're used in about two- thirds of all abortions. As president, would you block abortion medication? TRUMP: First of all, the Supreme Court just approved the abortion pill. And I agree with their decision to have done that, and I will not block it. And if you look at this whole question that you're asking, a complex, but not really complex. Fifty-one years ago, you had Roe v. Wade, and everybody wanted to get it back to the states, everybody, without exception, Democrats, Republicans, liberals, conservatives. Everybody wanted it back. Religious leaders. And what I did is I put three great Supreme Court justices on the court, and they happened to vote in favor of killing Roe v. Wade and moving it back to the states. This is something that everybody wanted. Now, 10 years ago or so, they started talking about how many weeks and how many of this are getting into other things, but every legal scholar, throughout the world, the most respected, wanted it brought back to the states. I did that. [21:15:06] Now, the states are working it out. If you look at Ohio, it was a decision that was -- it was an end result. That was a little bit more liberal than you would have thought. Kansas, I would say the same thing. Texas is different. Florida is different. But they're all making their own decisions right now. And right now, the states control it. That's the vote of the people. Like Ronald Reagan, I believe in the exceptions, I am a person that believes. And frankly, I think it's important to believe in the exceptions. Some people, you have to follow your heart, some people don't believe in that. But I believe in the exceptions for rape, incest, and the life of the mother. I think it's very important. Some people don't. Follow your heart. But you have to get elected also and -- because that has to do with other things. You've got to get elected. The problem they have is they're radical because they will take the life of a child in the eighth month, the ninth month, and even after birth -- after birth. If you look at the former governor of Virginia, he was willing to do this. He said, we'll put the baby aside and well determine what we do with the baby. Meaning, we'll kill the baby. What happened is we brought it back to the states and the country is now coming together on this issue. It's been a great thing. BASH: Thank you. President Biden? BIDEN: It's been a terrible thing what you've done. The fact is that the vast majority of constitutional scholars supported Roe when it was decided, supported Roe. I was -- this idea that they were all against it is just ridiculous. And this is the guy who says the states should be able to have it. We're (ph) in a state where in six weeks, you don't even know whether you're pregnant or not, but you cannot see the doctor, have your -- and have him decide on what your circumstances are, whether you need help. The idea that states are able to do this is a little like saying, we're going to turn civil rights back to the states. Let each state have a different rule. Look, there's so many young women who have been -- including a young woman who just was murdered and he went to the funeral. The idea that she was murdered by -- by --by an immigrant coming in and he talked about that, but here's the deal, there's a lot of young women who are being raped by their -- by their in-laws, by their -- by their spouse's (ph) brothers and sisters, by -- just -- it's just -- it's just ridiculous. And they can do nothing about it. And they tried to arrest them when they across state lines. BASH: Thank you. TRUMP: There have been many young women murdered by the same people he allows to come across our border. We have a border that's the most dangerous place anywhere in the world, considered the most dangerous place anywhere in the world. And he opened it up, and these killers are coming into our country, and they are raping and killing women, and it's a terrible thing. As far as the abortion is concerned, it is now back with the states. The states are voting and in many cases, they -- it's frankly a very liberal decision. In many cases, it's the opposite. But they're voting and it's bringing it back to the vote of the people, which is what everybody wanted, including the Founders, if they knew about this issue, which frankly they didn't, but they would have -- everybody want it brought back. Ronald Reagan wanted it brought back. He wasn't able to get it. Everybody wanted it brought back and many presidents had tried to get it back. I was the one to do it. And again, this gives it the vote of the people. And that's where they wanted it. Every legal scholar wanted it that way. BASH: Staying on the topic of abortion, President Biden. Seven states -- I'll let you do that. This is the same topic. Seven states have no legal restrictions on how far into a pregnancy a woman can obtain an abortion. Do you support any legal limits on how late a woman should be able to terminate a pregnancy? BIDEN: I supported Roe v. Wade, which had three trimesters. First time is between a woman and a doctor. Second time is between the doctor and an extreme situation. And a third time is between the doctor -- I mean, it'd be between the woman and the state. The idea that the politicians -- that the Founders wanted the politicians to be the ones making decisions about women's health is ridiculous. That's the last -- no politician should be making that decision. A doctor should be making those decisions. That's how it should be run. That's what you're going to do. And if I'm elected, I'm going to restore Roe v. Wade. TRUMP: So that means he can take the life of the baby in the ninth month and even after birth, because some states, Democrat-run, take it after birth. Again, the governor -- former governor of Virginia: put the baby down, then, we decide what to do with it. So he's in -- he's willing to, as we say, rip the baby out of the womb in the ninth month and kill the baby. Nobody wants that to happen. Democrat or Republican, nobody wants it to happen. BIDEN: He's lying (ph). That is simply not true. That Roe v. Wade does not provide for that. That's not the circumstance. Only when the woman's life is in danger, she's going to die, that's the only circumstance in which that can happen. But we are not for late term abortion, period -- period, period. TRUMP: Under Roe v. Wade, you have late term abortion. You can do whatever you want depending on the state, you can do whatever you want. We don't think that's a good thing. We think it's a radical thing. We think the Democrats are the radicals, not the Republicans. [21:20:07] BIDEN: For 51 years, that was the law. 51 years, Constitutional Scholarship said it was the right way to go. 51 years, and it was taken away because this guy put very conservative members on the Supreme Court. He takes credit for taking it away. What's he going to do? What's he going to do, in fact, if -- if the MAGA Republicans -- he gets elected, and the MAGA Republicans control the Congress and they pass a universal ban on abortion, period, across the board at six weeks or seven or eight or ten weeks. Something very, very conservative. Is he going to sign that bill? I'll veto it. He'll sign it. BASH: Thank you. TAPPER: Let's turn now to the issue of immigration and border security. President Biden, a record number of migrants have illegally crossed the southern border on your watch, overwhelming border states and overburdening cities such as New York and Chicago, and in some cases causing real safety and security concerns. Given that, why should voters trust you to solve this crisis? BIDEN: Because we worked very hard to get a bipartisan agreement that not only changed all of that, it made sure that we are in a situation where you had no circumstance where they could come across the border with the number of border police there are now. We significantly increased the number of asylum officers. Significantly -- by the way, the Border Patrol endorsed me, endorsed my position. In addition to that, we found ourselves in a situation where, when he was president, he was taking -- separating babies from their mothers, putting them in cages, making sure the families were separated. That's not the right way to go. What I've done since I've changed the law, what's happened? I've changed it in a way that now you're in a situation where there are 40% fewer people coming across the border illegally. That's better than when he left office. And I'm going to continue to move until we get the total ban on the -- the total initiative relative to what we're going to do with more Border Patrol and more asylum officers. TAPPER: President Trump? TRUMP: I really don't know what he said at the end of that sentence. I don't think he knows what he said either. Look, we had the safest border in the history of our country. The border -- all he had to do was leave it. All he had to do was leave it. He decided to open up our border, open up our country to people that are from prisons, people that are from mental institutions, insane asylum, terrorists. We have the largest number of terrorists coming into our country right now. All terrorists all over the world, not just in South America, all over the world. They come from the Middle East, everywhere, all over the world. They're pouring in. And this guy just left it open. And he didn't need legislation because I didn't have legislation. I said close the border. We had the safest border in history. In that final couple of months of my presidency, we had, according to Border Patrol, who is great and, by the way, who endorsed me for president. But I won't say that. But they endorsed me for president. Brandon, just speak to him. But, look, we had the safest border in history. Now we have the worst border in history. There's never been anything like it. And people are dying all over the place, including the people that are coming up in caravans. TAPPER: Thank you, President Trump. President Biden? BIDEN: The only terrorist who has done anything crossing the border is one who came along and killed three in his administration, killed an al-Qaida person in his administration, killed three American soldiers, killed three American soldiers. That's the only terrorist that's there. I'm not saying no terrorist ever got through with the idea. They're emptying their prisons. We're welcoming these people. That's simply not true. There's no data to support what he said. Once again, he's exaggerating. He's lying. TAPPER: President Trump, staying on the topic of immigration, you've said that you're going to carry out, quote, "the largest domestic deportation operation in American history," unquote. Does that mean that you will deport every undocumented immigrant in America, including those who have jobs, including those whose spouses are citizens, and including those who have lived here for decades? And if so, how will you do it? TRUMP: Just one second. He said we killed three people. The people we killed are al-Baghdadi and Salamani, the two greatest terrorists, biggest terrorists anywhere in the world, and it had a huge impact on everything, not just border, on everything. He's the one that killed people with the bad water, including hundreds of thousands of people dying and also killing our citizens when they come in. We -- we are living right now in a rat's nest. They're killing our people in New York, in California, in every state in the union because we don't have borders anymore. Every state is now a border. And because of his ridiculous, insane and very stupid policies, people are coming in and they're killing our citizens at a level that we've never seen. We call it migrant crime. I call it Biden migrant crime. They're killing our citizens at a level that we've never seen before. And you're reading it like these three incredible young girls over the last few days. One of them, I just spoke to the mother, and he just had the funeral for this girl, 12 years old. This is horrible What's taken place in our country, we're literally an uncivilized country now. He doesn't want it to be. He just doesn't know. [21:25:11] He opened the borders, nobody's ever seen anything like. And we have to get a lot of these people out and we have to get them out fast, because they're going to destroy our country. Just take a look at where they're living. They're living in luxury hotels in New York City and other places. Our veterans are on the street. They're dying, because he doesn't care about our veterans. He doesn't care. He doesn't like the military, at all. And he doesn't care about our veterans. Nobody had been worse. I had the highest approval rating for veterans, taking care of the V.A. He has the worst. He's gotten rid of all the things that I approved, choice, that I got through Congress. All of the different things I approved, they abandoned. We had, by far, the highest, and now it's down in less than half because he's done -- all these great things that we did -- and I think he did it just because I approved it, which is crazy. But he has killed so many people at our border by allowing... TAPPER: Thank you, President Trump. TRUMP: ... all of these people to come in. TAPPER: President Biden... TRUMP: And it's a very sad day in America. TAPPER: President Biden, you have the mic. BIDEN: Every single thing he said is a lie, every single one. For example, veterans are a hell of a lot better off since I past the PACT Act. One million of them now have insurance, and their families have it. And their families have it, because what happened, whether was Agent Orange or burn pits, they're all being covered now. And he -- his group opposed that. We're also in a situation where we have great respect for veterans. My -- my son spent a year in Iraq, living next to one of those burn pits, came back with stage four glioblastoma. I was recently in -- in -- in France for D-Day, and I spoke to all -- about those heroes that died. I went to the World War II cemetery -- World War I cemetery he refused to go to. He was standing with his four-star general, and he told him -- he said, "I don't want to go in there because they're a bunch of losers and suckers." My son was not a loser. He was not a sucker. You're the sucker. You're the loser. TAPPER: President Trump? TRUMP: First of all, that was a made-up quote, "suckers and losers." They made it up. It was in a third-rate magazine that's failing, like many of these magazines. He made that up. He put it in commercials. We've notified 'em. We had 19 people that said I didn't say it. And think of this, who would say -- "I'm at a cemetery," or "I'm talking about our veterans" -- because nobody's taken better care -- I'm so glad this came up, and he brought it up. There's nobody that's taken better care of our soldiers than I have. To think that I would, in front of generals and others, say "suckers and losers" -- we have 19 people that said it was never said by me. It was made up by him, just like "Russia, Russia, Russia" was made up, just like the 51 intelligence agents are made up, just like the new thing with the 16 economists are talking. It's the same thing. Fifty-one intelligence agents said that the laptop was Russia disinformation. It wasn't. That came from his son, Hunter. It wasn't Russia disinformation. He made up the "suckers and losers," so he should apologize to me right now. BIDEN: You had a four-star general stand at your side, who was on your staff, who said you said it, period. That's number one. And, number two, the idea -- the idea that I have to apologize to you for anything along the lines. We've done more for veterans than any president has in American history -- American history. And they now -- and their family. The only sacred obligation we have as a country is to care for our veterans when they come home, and their families, and equip them when they go to war. That's what we're doing. That's what the V.A. is doing now. They're doing more for veterans than ever before in our history. TAPPER: All right. Thank you so much. BASH: Let's move to the topic of foreign policy. I want to begin with Russia's war against Ukraine, which is now in its third year. Former President Trump, Russian President Vladimir Putin says he'll only end this war if Russia keeps the Ukrainian territory it has already claimed and Ukraine abandons its bid to join NATO. Are Putin's terms acceptable to you? TRUMP: First of all, our veterans and our soldiers can't stand this guy. They can't stand him. They think he's the worst commander in chief, if that's what you call him, that we've ever had. They can't stand him. So let's get that straight. And they like me more than just about any of them. And that's based on every single bit of information. As far as Russia and Ukraine, if we had a real president, a president that knew -- that was respected by Putin, he would have never -- he would have never invaded Ukraine. A lot of people are dead right now, much more than people know. You know, they talk about numbers. You can double those numbers, maybe triple those numbers. He did nothing to stop it. In fact, I think he encouraged Russia from going in. I'll tell you what happened. He was so bad with Afghanistan; it was such a horrible embarrassment, most embarrassing moment in the history of our country, that when Putin watched that and he saw the incompetence that he should -- he should have fired those generals like I fired the one that you mentioned. And so he's got no love lost. But he should have fired those generals. No general got fired for the most embarrassing moment in the history of our country, Afghanistan, where we left billions of dollars of equipment behind. We lost 13 beautiful soldiers and 38 soldiers were obliterated. And by the way, we left people behind too. We left American citizens behind. [21:30:17] When Putin saw that, he said, you know what, I think we're going to go in and maybe take my -- this was his dream. I talked to him about it, his dream. The difference is he never would have invaded Ukraine. Never. Just like Israel would have never been invaded in a million years by Hamas. You know why? Because Iran was broke with me. I wouldn't let anybody do business with them. They ran out of money. They were broke. They had no money for Hamas. They had no money for anything. No money for terror. That's why you had no terror at all during my administration. This place, the whole world is blowing up under him. BASH: President Biden. BIDEN: I've never heard so much malarkey in my whole life. Look, the fact of the matter is that we're in a situation where -- let's take the last point first, Iran attacked American troops, killed, caused brain damage for a number of these troops, and he did nothing about it. Recently, when he was president, they attacked. He said, they're just having headaches. That's all it is. We didn't do a thing when the attack took place. Number one. Number two, we got over 100,000 Americans and others out of Afghanistan during that airlift. Number three, we found ourselves in a situation where, if you take a look at what Trump did in Ukraine, he's -- this guy told Ukraine -- told Trump, do whatever you want and do whatever you want. And that's exactly what Trump did to Putin, encouraged him, do whatever you want. And he went in. And listen to what he said when he went in, he was going to take Kyiv in five days, remember? Because it's part of the old Soviet Union. That's what he wanted to re-establish Kyiv. And he in fact, didn't do it at all. He didn't -- wasn't able to get it done. And they've lost over -- they've lost thousands and thousands of troops, 500,000 troops. BASH: Thank you. President Trump -- TRUMP: I never said that. BASH: -- come back to you for one minute. I just want to go back to my original question, which is, are Putin's terms acceptable to you, keeping the territory in Ukraine? TRUMP: No, they're not acceptable. No, they're not acceptable. But look, this is a war that never should have started. If we had a leader in this war, he led everybody along. He's given $200 billion now or more to Ukraine. He's given $200 billion. That's a lot of money. I don't think there's ever been anything like it. Every time that Zelenskyy comes to this country, he walks away with $60 billion dollars, he's the greatest salesman ever. And I'm not knocking him, I'm not knocking anything. I'm only saying, the money that we're spending on this war, and we shouldn't be spending, it should have never happened. I will have that war settled between Putin and Zelenskyy as president-elect before I take office on January 20th. I'll have that war settled. People being killed so needlessly, so stupidly, and I will get it settled and I'll get it settled fast before I take office. BASH: President Biden, you have a minute. BIDEN: The fact is that Putin is a war criminal. He's killed thousands and thousands of people. And he has made one thing clear, he wants to re-establish what was part of the Soviet Empire, not just a piece, he wants all of Ukraine. That's what he wants. And then do you think he'll stop there? Do you think he'll stop when he -- if he takes Ukraine? What do you think happens to Poland? What do you think of Belarus? What do you think happens to those NATO countries? And so, if you want a war, you ought to find out what he's going to do. Because if, in fact, he does what he says and walks away -- by the way, all that money we give Ukraine and from weapons we make here in the United States, we give them the weapons, not the money at this point. And our NATO allies have produced as much funding for Ukraine as we have. That's why it's -- that's why we're strong. BASH: Thank you. Moving on to the Middle East. In October, Hamas attacked Israel, killing more than a thousand people and taking hundreds of hostages. Among those held and thought to still be alive are five Americans. Israel's response has killed thousands of Palestinians and created a humanitarian crisis in Gaza. President Biden, you've put forward a proposal to resolve this conflict. But so far, Hamas has not released the remaining hostages and Israel is continuing its military offensive in Gaza. So, what additional leverage will you use to get Hamas and Israel to end the war? You have two minutes. BIDEN: Number one, everyone from the United Nations Security Council straight through to the G7 to the Israelis and Netanyahu himself have endorsed the plan I put forward, endorsed the plan I put forward, which has three stages to it. The first stage is to treat the hostages for a ceasefire. Second phase is a ceasefire with additional conditions. The third phase is know the end of the war. The only one who wants the war to continue is Hamas. Number one. [21:35:11] We're still pushing hard from -- to get them to accept. In the meantime, what's happened in Israel? We're finally -- the only thing I've denied Israel was 2,000-pound bombs. They don't work very well in populated areas. They kill a lot of innocent people. We are providing Israel with all the weapons they need and when they need them. And by the way, I'm the guy that organized the world against Iran when they had a full-blown kind of ballistic missile attack on Israel. No one was hurt. No one Israeli was accidentally killed. And it stopped. We saved Israel. We are the biggest producer of support for Israel than anyone in the world. And so, that's -- they are two different things. Hamas cannot be allowed to be continued. We continue to send our experts and our intelligence people to how they can get Hamas like we did Bin Laden. You don't have to do it. And by the way, they've been greatly weakened, Hamas, greatly weakened, and they should be. They should be eliminated. But, you got to be careful for what you use these certain weapons among population centers. TRUMP: Just going back to Ukraine for one second. We have an ocean separating us. The European nations together have spent $100 billion or maybe more than that, less than us. Why doesn't he call them so you got to put up your money like I did with NATO? I got them to put up hundreds of billions of dollars. The Secretary General of NATO said Trump did the most incredible job I've ever seen. You wouldn't -- they wouldn't have any -- they were going out of business. We were spending -- almost 100 percent of the money was paid by us. He didn't do that. He is getting all -- you got to ask these people to put up the money. We're over $100 billion more spent, and it has a bigger impact on them, because of location, because we have an ocean in between. You got to ask him, as far as Israel and Hamas, Israel is the one that wants to go. He said the only one who wants to keep going is Hamas. Actually, Israel is the one, and you should them go and let them finish the job. He doesn't want to do it. He has become like a Palestinian. But, they don't like him because he is a very bad Palestinian. He is a weak one. BASH: President Biden, you have a minute. BIDEN: I've never heard so much foolishness. This a guy who wants to get out of NATO. You're going to stay in NATO or you're going to pull out of NATO? The idea that we have -- our strength lies in our alliances as well. It may be a big ocean, but we're ever able to avoid a war in Europe, a major war in Europe? What happens if in fact you have Putin continue to go into NATO? We have an Article Five agreement, attack on one is attack on all. You want to start the nuclear war he keeps talking about. Go ahead. Let Putin go in and control Ukraine and then move on to Poland and other places. See what happens then. He has no idea what the hell he is talking about. And by the way, I got 50 other nations around the world to support Ukraine, including Japan and South Korea, because they understand that this was this -- this kind of dislocation has a serious threat to the whole world peace. No major war in Europe has ever been able to be contained just to Europe. BASH: President Trump, just a follow-up, would you support the creation of an independent Palestinian state in order to achieve peace in the region? TRUMP: I'd have to see. But, before we do that, the problem we have is that we spend all the money. So, they kill us on trade. I made great trade deals with the European nations, because if you add them up, they're about the same size economically. Their economy is about the same size as the United States. And they were with (ph) no cars. No. They don't want anything that we have. But, we're supposed to take their cars, their food, their everything, their agriculture. I changed that. But, the big thing I changed is they don't want to pay. And the only reason that he can play games with NATO is because I got them to put up hundreds of billions of dollars. I said, and he is right about this, I said, no, I'm not going to support NATO if you don't pay. They asked me that question. Would you guard us against Russia at a very secret meeting of the 28 states at that time, nations at that time? And they said, no, if you don't pay, I won't do that. And you know what happened? Billions and billions of dollars came flowing in the next day and the next months. But now, we're in the same position. We're paying everybody's bills. BASH: Thank you. TAPPER: Let's turn to the issue of democracy. Former President Trump, I want to ask you about January 6, 2021. After you rallied your supporters that day, some of them stormed the Capitol to stop the constitutionally mandated counting of electoral votes. As President, you swore an oath to quote, "preserve, protect and defend", unquote, the Constitution. What do you say to voters who believe that you violated that oath through your actions and inaction on January 6 and worry that you'll do it again? TRUMP: Well, I don't think too many believe that. And let me tell you about January 6. On January 6, we had a great border, nobody coming through, very few. On January 6, we were energy independent. On January 6, we had the lowest taxes ever. We had the lowest regulations ever. On January 6, we were respected all over the world, all over the world we were respected, and then he comes in, and we're now laughed at. [21:40:19] We're like a bunch of stupid people that -- what happened to the United States's reputation under this man's leadership is horrible, including weaponization, which I'm sure at some point you'll be talking about where he goes after his political opponent because he can't beat them fair and square. TAPPER: You have 80 seconds left. My question was, what do you say to those voters who believe that you violated your constitutional oath through your actions, inaction on January 6th, 2021, and worried that you'll do it again? TRUMP: Well, I didn't say that to anybody. I said peacefully and patriotically. And Nancy Pelosi, if you just watched the news from two days ago, on tape to her daughter, who's a documentary filmmaker, they say, what she's saying, oh, no, it's my responsibility, I was responsible for this. Because I offered them 10,000 soldiers or National Guard. And she turned them down. And the mayor of -- in writing, by the way, the mayor, in writing turned it down, the mayor of D.C., they turned it down. I offered 10,000 because I could see -- I had virtually nothing to do. They asked me to go make a speech. I could see what was happening. Everybody was saying they're going to be there on January 6th. They're going to be there. And I said, you know what, that's a lot of people coming, you could feel it. You could feel it too. And you could feel it. And I said, they ought to have some National Guard or whatever. And I offered it to her. And she now admits that she turned it down. And it was the same day. She was -- I don't know, you can't be very happy with her daughter because it made her into a liar. She said, I take full responsibility for January 6th. TAPPER: President Biden? BIDEN: Look, he encouraged those folks to go up on Capitol Hill, number one. I sat in that dining room off the Oval Office -- he sat there for three hours, three hours watching, begging, being begged by his vice president and a number of his colleagues and Republicans as well to do something, to call for a stop, to end it. Instead, he talked -- they've talked about these people being patriots and -- and great patrons of America. In fact, he says he'll not forgive them for what they've done. They've been convicted. He says he wants to commute their sentences and say that, no, he went to every single court in the nation, I don't know how many cases, scores of cases, including the Supreme Court. And they said they said -- they said, no, no, this guy, this guy is responsible for doing what is being -- was done. He didn't do a damn thing. And these people should be in jail. And they should be the ones who are being held accountable. And he wants to let them all out. And now he says if he loses again, such a whiner that he is, that there could be a bloodbath. TAPPER: Thank you, President Biden. President Trump? TRUMP: What they've done to some people that are so innocent, you ought to be ashamed of yourself, what you have done, how you've destroyed the lives of so many people. When they ripped down Portland, when they ripped down many other cities, you go to Minnesota, Minneapolis, what they've done there with the fires all over the city, if I didn't bring in the National Guard, that city would have been destroyed. When you look at all of the -- they took over big chunks of Seattle. I was all set to bring in the National Guard. They heard that. They saw them coming and they left immediately. What he said about this whole subject is so off. Peacefully patriotic. One other thing, the "unselect committee," which is basically two horrible Republicans that are all gone now, out of office, and Democrats, all Democrats, they destroyed and deleted all of the information they found because they found out we were right. We were right. And they deleted and destroyed all of the information. They should go to jail for that. If a Republican did that, they'd go to jail. TAPPER: Thank you, President Trump. President Biden, I want to give you a minute. BIDEN: The only person on this stage that is a convicted felon is the man I'm looking at right now. And the fact of the matter is he is -- what he's telling you is simply not true. The fact is that there was no effort on his part to stop what was going on up on Capitol Hill. And all those people, every one of those who were convicted deserves to be convicted. The idea that they didn't kill somebody, just went in and broke down doors, broke the windows, occupied offices, turned over desks, turned them over, statues, the idea that those people are patriots? Come on. When I asked him about first of two debates we had -- debates we had the first time around, I said, will you denounce the Proud Boys. He said, no, I'll tell them stand by. The idea he's refusing -- will you denounce these guys? Will you denounce the people we're talking about now? You denounce the people who attacked that Capitol? What are you going to do? TAPPER: I'm going to give you a -- a minute, President Trump, for a follow-up question I have. After a jury convicted you of 34 felonies last month, you said if re-elected, you would, quote, "have every right to go after," unquote, your political opponents. You just talked about members of the Select Committee on January 6th going to jail. [21:45:20] Your main political opponent is standing on stage with you tonight. Can you clarify exactly what it means about you feeling you have every right to go after your political opponents? TRUMP: Well, I said my retribution is going to be success. We're going to make this country successful again because right now it's a failing nation. My retribution is going to be success. But when he talks about a convicted felon, his son is a convicted felon at a very high level. His son is convicted. Going to be convicted probably numerous other times. He should have been convicted before, but his Justice Department let the statute of limitations lapse on the most important things. But he could be a convicted felon as soon as he gets out of office. Joe could be a convicted felon with all of the things that he's done. He's done horrible things. All of the death caused at the border, telling the Ukrainian people that, we're going to want a billion dollars or you change the prosecutor. Otherwise, you're not getting a billion dollars. If I ever said that, that's quid pro quo. That -- we're not going to do anything. We're not going to give you a billion dollars unless you change your prosecutor having to do with his son. This man is a criminal. This man -- you're lucky. You're lucky. I did nothing wrong. We'd have a system that was rigged and disgusting. I did nothing wrong. TAPPER: Thank you, President Trump. President Biden, you have said, I'm coming right to you, sir. You -- well, you want to respond? Go ahead. I'll give you a minute to respond. BIDEN: The idea that I did anything wrong relative to what you're talking about is outrageous. It's simply a lie, number one. Number two, the idea that you have a right to seek retribution against any American, just because you're a president, is wrong, is simply wrong. No president's ever spoken like that before. No president in our history has spoken like that before. Number three, the crimes that you are still charged with. And think of all the civil penalties you have. How many billions of dollars do you owe in civil penalties for molesting a woman in public, for doing a whole range of things, of having sex with a porn star on the night -- and while your wife was pregnant? I mean, what are you talking about? You have the morals of an alley cat. TAPPER: Give you a minute, sir. TRUMP: I didn't have sex with a porn star, number one. Number two, that was a case that was started and moved. They moved a high-ranking official, a DOJ, into the Manhattan D.A.'s office to start that case. That case is going to be appealed in one. We had a very terrible judge, horrible judge, Democrat. The prosecutor were all high-ranking Democrats appointed people and the -- both the civil and a criminal. He basically went after his political opponent because he thought it was going to damage me. But when the public found out about these cases, because they understand it better than he does, he has no idea what these cases are, but when he -- they -- when they found out about these cases, you know what they did? My poll numbers went up way up. You know that because you're reporting it. And we took in more money in the last two weeks than we've ever taken in the history of any campaign. I don't think any campaign has ever taken hundreds of millions of dollars came pouring in because the public knows it's a scam and it's a guy that's after his political opponent because he can't win fair and square. TAPPER: Thank you, President Trump. President Biden, you have said, quote, Donald Trump and his MAGA Republicans are determined to destroy American democracy. Do you believe that the tens of millions of Americans who are likely to vote for President Trump will be voting against American democracy? BIDEN: The more they know about what he's done, yes. The more they know about what he's done. And there's a lot more coming. He's got a lot of cases around the road coming around. He's got -- he's got a whole range of issues he has to face. I don't know what the juries will do, but I do know -- I do know he has a real problem. And so the fact that -- could you ever think you're hearing any president say that, I'm going to seek retribution? Do you ever hear any president say that, I thought it would write some good ideas? What got me involved to run in the first place after my son had died, I decided -- in Iraq -- because of Iraq. I said, I wasn't going to run again, until I saw what happened in Charlottesville, Virginia. People coming out of the woods carrying swastikas on torches and singing the same anti-Semitic bile they sang back in Germany. And what did -- and the young woman got killed, they spoke to the mother. And she -- they asked him, they said, what -- well, what do you think of those people? The people who wanted to get killed, the ones who tried to stop it, and the ones who said, I think they're fine people on both sides. What American president would ever say, Nazis coming out of fields, carrying torches, singing the same anti-Semitic bile, carrying swastikas, were fine people. This is a guy who says Hitler's done some good things. I'd like to know what they are. The good things Hitler's done, that's what he said. This guy has no sense of American democracy. TAPPER: President Trump? [21:50:03] TRUMP: Jake, both of you know that story has been totally wiped out because when you see the sentence, it said 100 percent exoneration on there. So he just keeps it going. He says he ran because of Charlottesville. He didn't run because of Charlottesville. He ran because it was his last chance at -- he's not equipped to be president. You know it and I know it. It's ridiculous. We have a debate. We're trying to justify his presidency. His presidency, his -- without question, the worst president, the worst presidency in the history of our country. We shouldn't be having a debate about it. There's nothing to debate. He made up the Charlottesville story and you'll see it's debunked all over the place. Every anchor has -- every reasonable actor has debunked it. And just the other day it came out where it was fully debunked. It's a nonsense story. He knows that. And he didn't run because of Charlottesville. He used that as an excuse to run. TAPPER: President Biden? BIDEN: And debunk. It happened. All you have to do is listen to what was said at the time. And the idea that somehow that's the only reason I ran. I ran because I was worried a guy like this guy can get elected. If he thought they were good people coming out of that all -- that for us, carrying those -- those woods, carrying those torches, then he didn't deserve to be president, didn't deserve to be president at all. And the idea that he's talking about all of this being fabricated, we saw it with our own eyes. We saw what happened on January 6. We saw the people breaking to the windows. We saw people occupying there. His own vice president -- look, there's a reason why 40 of his 44 top cabinet officers refused endorsing this time. His vice president hasn't endorsed him this time. So, why? Why? They know him well. They serve with them. Why are they not endorsing him? TAPPER: Thank you, President Biden. We're going to be right back with more from the CNN presidential debate. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) [21:55:33] BASH: Welcome back to the CNN Presidential Debate live from Georgia. Let's talk about persistent challenges you both faced in your first terms, and you'd certainly face again in a second term. President Biden, while black unemployment dropped to a record low under your presidency, black families still earn far less than white families. Black mothers are still three times more likely to die for pregnancy related causes. And black Americans are imprisoned at five times the rate of white Americans. What do you say to black voters who are disappointed that you haven't made more progress? BIDEN: They acknowledge he made a lot of progress, number one. The facts of the matter is more small black businesses that have been started in any time in history. Number two, the wages of black -- black unemployment is the lowest level of spend in a long, long time. Number three, we find them -- they're trying to provide housing for black Americans and dealing with segregation that exists among these corporate -- these corporate operations that collude to keep people out of their houses. And in addition to that, we find that the impact of, on the -- the choice that black families have to make relative to childcare is incredibly difficult. When we did the first major piece of legislation in the past, I was able to reduce black childcare costs. I cut them in half, in half. We've got to make sure we provide for childcare costs. We've got to make sure -- because when you provide that childcare protections, you increase economic growth because more people can be in the -- in the job market. So there's more to be done, considerably more to be done, but we've done a great deal so far and I'm not letting up and they know it. BASH: You have 49 seconds left. What do you say to black voters who are disappointed with the progress so far? BIDEN: I say, I don't blame them for being disappointed. Inflation is still hurting them badly. For example, I provided for the idea that any black family, first time home buyer should get a $10,000 tax credit to be able to buy their first home so they can get started. I made sure that we're in a situation where all those black families and those black individuals who provided had to take out student loans that were ballooning, that if they were engaged in nursing and anything having to do with volunteerism, if they paid their bills for 10 years on their student debt, all the rest was forgiven after 10 years. Millions have benefited from that and we're going to do a whole lot more for black families. BASH: Thank you. President Trump? TRUMP: And he caused the inflation. He's blaming inflation. And he's right, it's been very bad. He caused the inflation and it's killing black families and Hispanic families and just about everybody. It's killing people. They can't buy groceries anymore. They can't. You look at the cost of food where it's doubled and tripled and quadrupled. They can't live. They're not living anymore. He caused this inflation. I gave him a country with no, essentially no inflation. It was perfect. It was so good. All he had to do is leave it alone. He destroyed it with his green news scam and all of the other -- all this money that's being thrown out the window. He caused inflation. As sure as you're sitting there, the fact is that his big kill on the black people is the millions of people that he's allowed to come in through the border. They're taking black jobs now and it could be 18. It could be 19 and even 20 million people. They're taking black jobs and they're taking Hispanic jobs and you haven't seen it yet, but you're going to see something that's going to be the worst in our history. BASH: Thank you. President Biden? BIDEN: There was no inflation when I became president. You know why? The economy was flat on its back. 15% unemployment, he decimated the economy, absolutely decimated the economy. That's why there was no inflation at the time. There were no jobs. We provided thousands of millions of jobs for individuals who were involved communities, including minority communities. We made sure that they have health insurance. We have covered with the ACA has increased. I made sure that they're $8,000 per person in the family to get written off in health care, but this guy wants to eliminate that. They tried 50 times. He wants to get rid of the ACA again, and they're going to try again if they win. You find ourselves in a position where the idea that we're not doing it. I put more -- we put more police on the street than any administration has. He wants to cut the cops. CNN Live Event / Special Aired June 27, 2024 - 22:00 ET THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED. JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: …We're providing for equity, equity and making sure people have a shot to make it. [22:00:16] There's a lot going on. But in inflation, he caused it by his tremendous malfeasance in the way he handled the pandemic. DANA BASH, CNN HOST: Thank you. Another persistent challenge is the climate crisis. 2023 was the hottest year in recorded history, and communities across the country are confronting the devastating effects of extreme heat, intensifying wildfires, stronger hurricanes, and rising sea levels. Former President Trump, you've vowed to end your opponent's climate initiatives, but will you take any action as president to slow the climate crisis? DONALD TRUMP (R), FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT AND 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Let me just go back to what he said about the police, how close the police are to him. Almost every police group in the nation from every state is supporting Donald J. Trump. Almost every police group. And what he's done to the Black population is horrible, including the fact that for 10 years, he called them super predators. We can't -- in the 1990s, we can't forget that. Super predators was his name, and he called it to them for 10, and they've taken great offense at it, and now they see it happening. But when they see what I did for criminal justice reform and for the historically Black colleges and universities where I funded them and got them all funded, and the opportunity zones with Tim, as you know, Tim Scott was incredible. He did a great job. Great senator from South Carolina. He came to me with the idea, and it was a great idea. It's 1 of the most successful economic development acts ever in the country, Opportunity Zones. And the biggest beneficiary are Blacks. And that's why we have the best numbers with them in maybe ever. They're saying ever. I read this morning, we're ever, the best numbers. He's lost much of the Black population because he's done a horrible job for Black people. He's also done a horrible job for Hispanics. But when do you see these millions of people pouring into our country and they're going to take the jobs, and it's already started, and you haven't seen anything yet. It's a disaster. BASH: You've 38 seconds left, President Trump. Will you take any action as president to slow the climate crisis? TRUMP: So I want absolutely immaculate clean water, and I want absolutely clean air, and we had it. We had H20. We had the best numbers ever, and we did -- we were using all forms of energy, all forms, everything. And yet, during my 4 years, I had the best environmental numbers ever. And my top environmental people gave me that statistic just before I walked on the stage, actually. BIDEN: I don't know where the hell he's been. The idea that any of he said is true. I passed the most extensive -- most extensive climate change legislation in history -- in history. We find ourselves -- and by the way, Black colleges, I came up with $15 million for HBCUs, Historic Black Universities and Colleges, because they don't have them. They don't have the kind of contributors that they have to build these laboratories and the like. Any Black student is capable in college or doing any White student can do. They just have the money, but now they'll be able to get those jobs in high-tech. We're in a situation where the idea that he is claiming to have done something to have the cleanest water -- the cleanest water? He hadn't done a damn thing with the environment. He pulled out of the Paris Peace Accord -- Climate Accord. I immediately joined it, because if we reach 1.5 degrees Celsius at any one point, there's no way back. The only existential threat to humanity is climate change, and he didn't do a damn thing about it. He wants to undo all that I've done. TRUMP: The Paris Accord was going to cost us a $1 trillion and China nothing and Russia nothing and India nothing. It was a rip off of the United States, and I ended it because I didn't want to waste that money because they treat us horribly. We were the only ones who was costing us money. Nobody else was paying into it, and it was a disaster. But everything that he said just now -- I'll give you an example. I heard him say before, insulin. I'm the one that got the insulin down for the seniors. I took care of the seniors. What he's doing is destroying all of our medical programs because the migrants coming in, they want everybody. And look, I have the -- I have the biggest heart on the stage. I guarantee you that. And I want to take care of people. But we're destroying our country. They're taking over our schools, our hospitals, and they're going to be taking over Social Security. He is destroying Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid. BIDEN: The idea is that we, in fact -- we were the only ones of consequence were not members of the Paris Accord. How can we do anything if we were not able to -- the United States can't get this under control? [22:05:04] One of the largest polluters in the world, number one. We're making significant progress. By 2035, we will have cut pollution in half. We have made -- we have made significant progress, and we're continuing to make progress. We set up a Climate Corps for thousands of young people who learn how to deal with -- just like the Peace Corps. And we're going to -- we're moving in directions that are going to significantly change the elements of cause of pollution. But the idea that -- he claims that he has the biggest heart up here and he's really concerned about pollution and about climate, I've not seen any indication of that. And by the way, with regard to prescription drugs, one company agreed that they would reduce the price to $35, which I was calling for -- one, voluntarily. I made sure every company in the world, every pharmaceutical company cannot have to -- BASH: Thank you. BIDEN: And by the way -- JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: So every day millions of Americans struggle just to make ends meet. For many older Americans, Social Security provides a critical lifeline. President Biden, if nothing is done to Social Security, seniors will see their benefits cut in just over 10 years. Will you name tonight one specific step that you're willing to take to keep Social Security solvent? BIDEN: Yes. Make the very wealthy begin to pay their fair share. Right now, everybody making under $170,000 pays 6 percent of their income of their paycheck, every single time they get a paycheck from the time the first one they get when they're 18 years old. The idea that they're going to -- I'm like, I'm proposing that everybody they pay -- the millionaires pay 1 percent -- 1 percent. So no one have to -- I would not raise the cost of Social Security for anybody under $400,000. After that, I began to make the wealthy begin to pay their fair share by increasing from 1 percent beyond to be able to guarantee the program for life. TAPPER: So you still have 82 seconds left. Are there any other measures that you think that would be able to help keep Social Security solvent, or is that one enough? BIDEN: Well, that one enough will keep it solvent. But the biggest thing I'll do if we defeat this man, because he wants to get rid of Social Security, he thinks there's plenty to cut in Social Security. He's wanting to cut Social Security and Medicare both times, and that's what -- And if you look at the Trump -- the program put forward by the House Republican caucus that he, I believe, supports is, in fact, want to cut it as well. The idea that we don't need to protect our seniors is ridiculous. We put -- and by the way, American public has greater health care coverage today than ever before. And under the ACA, as I said, you're in a circumstance where 400,000 people -- I mean, 40 million people would not have insurance because they have a preexisting condition. Only that allows them to have that insurance is the fact that they, in fact, are part of the ACA. And by the way, the other thing is we're in a situation where we talk about education for black communities. I've raised the number -- the amount of money for Pell grants, another $8,000. So anybody making under $70,000 a year are going to be able to get $15,000 towards the tuition. He just doesn't know what he's talking about. TAPPER: Thank you, President Biden. President Trump. TRUMP: So I've dealt with politicians all my life. I've been on this side of the equation for the last 8 years. I've never seen anybody lie like this guy. He lies. I've never seen it. He could look you in the face about so many other things, too. And we mentioned the laptop. We mentioned Russia, Russia, Russia, Ukraine, Ukraine, Ukraine. Everything he does is a lie. It's misinformation and disinformation. The losers and suckers story that he made up is a total lie on the military. It's a disgrace. But Social Security, he's destroying it, because millions of people are pouring into our country and they're putting them onto Social Security, they're putting them onto Medicare, Medicaid, they're putting them in our hospitals. They're taking the place of our citizens there. What they're doing to the VA, to our veterans is unbelievable. Our veterans are living in the street and these people are living in luxury hotels. He doesn't know what he's doing. And it's really coming back. I've never seen such anger in our country before. TAPPER: President Biden? BIDEN: The idea that veterans are not being taken care of, I told you before -- and by the way, when I said suckers and losers, he said he acknowledged after that he fired that general. That general got fired because he's the one that acknowledged that that's what he said. He was the one standing with Trump when he said it, number one. Number two, the idea that we're going to be in a situation where all these millions and millions the way he talks about it illegal aliens are coming into the country and taking away our jobs, there's a reason why we have the fastest growing economy in the world, the reason why we have the most successful economy in the world. We're doing better than any other nation in the world. And by the way, those 15 Nobel laureates he talked about being phony, those 15 Nobel laureates, economists, they all said that if Trump is reelected, we're likely to have a recession and inflation is going to increasingly go up. And by the way, worst president history. 159 presidential scholars voted him the worst president in the history of the United States of America. [22:10:23] TAPPER: President Biden, thank you so much. Let's turn to the cost of childcare, which many American families struggle to afford. President Trump, both you and President Biden have tried to address this issue, but the average cost of child care in this country has risen to more than $11,000 a year per child. For many families, the cost of child care for two children is more than their rent. In your second term, what would you do to make childcare more affordable? TRUMP: Just to go back? The general got fired because he was no good. And if he said that, that's why he made it up. But we have 19 people that said, I didn't say it. And they're very highly respected, much more so than him. The other thing is, he doesn't fire people. He never fired people. I've never seen him fire anybody. I did fire a lot. I fired Comey, because he was no good. I fired a lot of the top people at the FBI, drained the swamp. They were no good. Not easy to fire people. You'd pay a price for it, but they were no good. I inherited these people. I didn't put him there. I didn't put Comey there. He was no good. I fired him. This guy hasn't fired anybody. He never fires. He should have fired every military man that was involved with that Afghan -- the Afghanistan horror show, the most embarrassing moment in the history of our country. He didn't fire. Did you fire anybody? Did you fire anybody that's on the border that's allowed us to have the worst border in the history of the world? Did anybody get fired for allowing 18 million people, many from prisons, many from mental institutions? Did you fire anybody that allowed our country to be destroyed? Joe, our country is being destroyed as you and I sit up here and waste a lot of time on this debate. This shouldn't be a debate. He is the worst president. He just said about me because I said it. But look, he's the worst president in the history of our country. He's destroyed our country. Now all of a sudden, he's trying to get a little tough on the border. He came out with a nothing -- a nothing deal and it reduced it a little bit -- a little bit like this much. It's insignificant. He wants open borders. He wants our country to either be destroyed or he wants to pick up those people as voters. And I don't think, we just can't let it happen. If he wins this election, our country doesn't have a chance, not even a chance of coming out of this rut. We probably won't have a country left anymore. That's how bad it is. He is the worst in history by far. TAPPER: Thank you, President Trump. President Biden? BIDEN: We are the most admired country in the world. We're the United States of America. There's nothing beyond our capacity. We have the finest military in the history of the world. The finest in the history of the world. No one thinks we're weak. No one wants to screw around with us. Nobody. Number one. Number two, the idea that we're talking about worst presidents, I wasn't joking. Look it up. Go online. 159 or 58, don't hold me to the exact number, presidential historians, they've had meetings and they voted who's the worst president in American history? One through best to worst. They said he was the worst in all of American history. That's a fact. That's not conjecture. He can argue they're wrong, but that's what they voted. The idea that he is knowing, doing anything to deal with childcare, he did virtually nothing to childcare. We should significantly increase the child care tax credit. We should significantly increase the availability of women and men or single parents to be able to go back to work. And we should encourage businesses to hold -- to have -- TAPPER: Thank you, President Biden. President Trump, the question was about what would you do to make childcare more affordable? If you want to take your minute? TRUMP: Just so you understand, we have polling, we have other things that they rate him the worst, because what he's done is so bad. BIDEN: Show me. TRUMP: And they rate me -- I'll show you. I will show you. And they rate me one of the best, OK? And if I'm given another four years, I will be the best. I think I'll be the best. Nobody's ever created an economy like us. Nobody ever cut taxes like us. He's the only one I know. He wants to raise your taxes by four times. He wants to raise everybody's taxes by four times. He wants the Trump tax cuts to expire. So everybody, including the two of you, are going to pay four to five times. Nobody ever heard of this before. All my life, I'd grow up and I'd see politicians talking about cutting taxes. When we cut taxes -- as I said, we did more business. Apple and all these companies, they were bringing money back into our country. The worst president in history by far, and everybody knows it. TAPPER: President Biden? BIDEN: Look, the fact of the matter is that he's dead wrong about it, He's increased the tariff. He's increased -- he will increase the taxes on middle class people. I said I'd never raise a tax upon anybody making less than $400,000. I didn't. But this tariff -- his 10 percent tariffs, everything coming into the country. You know what the economists say? That's going to cost the average American $2,500 a year more because they're going to have to pay the difference in food and all the things that are important. [22:15:19] Number two, he's in a situation where he talks about how he has not raised -- he's somehow helped the middle class. The middle class has been devastated by you. Now you want a new tax cut of $5 trillion over the next 10 years, which is going to fundamentally bankrupt the country. You had the largest deficit of any president in American history, number one. Number two, you have not, in fact, made any contact, any progress with China. We are the lowest trade deficit with China since 2010. TAPPER: Thank you, President Biden. Thank you, President Biden. Let's discuss an epidemic impacting millions of Americans that both of you have made a top priority in your first term, the opioid crisis. And for both of you, the number of overdose deaths in this country has gone up. Under your term, it went up. Under your term, it has gone up. Former President Trump, despite the efforts that both of you have made more than 100,000 Americans are dying from overdoses every year, primarily from fentanyl and other opioids. What will you do to help Americans right now in the throes of addiction, who are struggling to get the treatment they need? TRUMP: To finish up, we now have the largest deficit in the history of our country under this guy. We have the largest deficit with China. He gets paid by China. He's a Manchurian candidate. He gets money from China. We have -- so I think he's afraid to deal with them or something. But do you notice? He never took out my tariffs because we bring in so much money with the tariffs that I imposed on China. He never took them away. He can't because it's too much money. It's tremendous. And we saved our steel industries and there was more to come. But he hasn't done that. But he hasn't cut the tariffs because he can't, because it's too much money. But he's got the largest deficit in the history of our country and he's got the worst -- the worst situation with China. China is going to own us if you keep allowing them to do what they're doing to us as a country. They are killing us as a country, Joe, and you can't let that happen. You're destroying our country. TAPPER: So, President Trump, you have 67 seconds left. The question was, what are you going to do to help Americans in the throes of addiction right now who are struggling to get the treatment they need? TRUMP: Jake we were doing very well at addiction until the COVID came along. We had the two and a half, almost three years of like nobody's ever had before, any country in every way. And then we had to get tough. And it was the drugs pouring across the border were it started to increase. We got great equipment. We bought the certain dog. That's the most incredible thing that you've ever seen, the way they can spot it. We did a lot. And we had -- we were getting very low numbers -- very, very low numbers. Then he came along. The numbers -- have you seen the numbers now? It's not only the 18 million people that I believe is even low, because they -- the gotaways, they don't even talk about gotaways. But the numbers of -- the amount of drugs and human trafficking in women coming across our border, the worst thing I've ever seen at numbers that nobody's ever seen under him because the border is so bad. But the number of drugs coming across our border now is the largest we've ever had by far. TAPPER: President Trump, thank you. President Biden? BIDEN: Fentanyl and the byproducts, fentanyl went down for a while and I wanted to make sure we use the machinery that can detect fentanyl, these big machines that roll over everything that comes across the border, and it costs a lot of money. That was part of this deal we put together -- this bipartisan deal. More fentanyl machines, more be able to detect drugs, more numbers of agents, more numbers of all the people at the border. And when we had that deal done, he went -- he called us Republican colleagues, said, don't do it. It's going to hurt me politically. He never argued. It's not a good bill. It's a really good bill. We need those machines. We need those machines. And we're coming down very hard in every country in Asia in terms of precursors for fentanyl. And Mexico is working with us to make sure they don't have the technology to be able to put it together. That's what we have to do. We need those machines. TAPPER: Thank you, President Biden. And President Trump, and again, the question is about Americans in the throes of addiction right now struggling to get the treatment they need. TRUMP: Well, this because this does pertain it to it. He ended Remain in Mexico. He ended catch and release. I made a catch and release in Mexico, not catch and release here. We had so many things that we had done, hard negotiations with Mexico, and I got it all for nothing. It's just like when you have a hostage, we always pay $6 billion for a hostage -- every time we say it as a hostage. Now we have a hostage. A Wall Street Journal reporter. I think a good guy, and he's over there because Putin is laughing at this guy, probably asking for billions of dollars for the reporter. I will have him out very quickly, as soon as I take office, before I take office. I said by, literally -- as soon as I win the election, I will have that reporter out. [22:20:16] He should have had him out a long time ago. But Putin's probably asking for billions and billions of dollars because this guy pays it every time. We had two cases, we paid $6 billion for five people. I got 58 people out and I paid essentially nothing. TAPPER: Thank you, President Trump. Dana? BASH: Let's turn to concerns that voters have about each of you. President Biden, you would be 86 at the end of your second term. How do you address concerns about your capability to handle the toughest job in the world well into your 80s? BIDEN: Well, first of all, I spent half my career being criticized being the youngest person in politics. I was the second youngest person ever elected in the United States Senate, and now I'm the oldest. This guy's three years younger and a lot less competent. I think that, just look at the record, look at what I've done, look how I've turned around the horrible situation he left me. As I said, 50 million new jobs, 800,000 manufacturing jobs, more investment in America. Over millions -- billions of dollars in private investment in enterprises that we are growing. By the way, we brought off a lot of people. The whole idea of computer chips. We used to have 40 percent of the market. We invented those chips and we lost it because he was sending people to find the cheapest jobs overseas and to bring home a product. So I went -- I went to South Korea. I convinced Samsung to invest billions of dollars here in the United States. And they're -- guess what, those fabs they call it, to build these chips, those fabs pay over $100,000. You don't need a college degree for them. And there's billions -- about $40 billion already being invested and being built right now in the United States, creating significant jobs for Americans all over the -- from all over the world. BASH: President Biden, you have 40 seconds left. Would you like to add anything? BIDEN: Yeah, I would. The idea that somehow we are this failing country, I've never heard a president talk like this before. We're the envy of the world. Name me a single major country president who wouldn't trade places with the United States of America, for all our problems and all our opportunities. We're the most progressive country in the world in getting things done. We're the strongest country in the world. We're a country in the world who keeps our word and everybody trusts us, all of our allies. And those who he coddles up to from Kim Jong Un, he sends love letters to and Putin, et cetera, they don't want us. They don't want to screw around with us. BASH: Thank you. Former President Trump, to follow up, you would be 82 at the end of your second term. What do you say to voters who have concerns about your capabilities to serve? TRUMP: Well, I took two tests -- cognitive tests. I aced them, both of them, as you know, we made it public. He took none. I'd like to see him take one, just one, a real easy one. Like, go through the first five questions. He couldn't do it. But I took two cognitive tests. I took physical exams every year. And, you know, we knock on wood, wherever we may have wood, that I'm in very good health. I just won two club championships, not even senior -- two regular club championships. To do that, you have to be quite smart and you have to be able to hit the ball a long way. And I do it. He doesn't do it. He can't hit a ball 50 yards. He challenged me to a golf match. He can't hit a ball 50 yards. I think I'm in very good shape. I feel that I'm in good a shape as I was 25, 30 years ago. Actually, I'm probably a little bit lighter, but I'm in as good a shape as I was years ago. I feel very good. I feel the same. But I took -- I was willing to take a cognitive test. And you know what, I didn't do well, I aced him. Dr. Ronny Jackson, who's a great guy when he was White House doctor. And then I took another one, a similar one, and both -- one of them said they've never seen anybody ace him. BASH: Thank you. President Biden? BIDEN: You can see he is 6'5 and only 223 pounds or 235 pounds. TRUMP: (inaudible). BIDEN: Well, you said 6'4, 200 and -- TRUMP: (inaudible). BIDEN: Well, anyway, that's what you're -- anyway, just take a look at what he says he is and take a look at what he is. Look, I'd be happy to have a driving contest with him. I got my handicap, which when I was vice president, down to a six. And by the way, I told you before, I'm happy to play golf if you carry your own bag. Think you can do it? TRUMP: That's the biggest lie, that you're six handicap of all. BIDEN: I was an eight handicap -- TRUMP: Yeah. BIDEN: Eight. TRUMP: Never. BIDEN: You know how many -- TRUMP: I've seen you swing? I know you swing. Let's not act like children. BASH: President Trump we're going to turn -- TRUMP: Let's not act like children. BIDEN: You are a child. BASH: -- to a specific concern that voters have about you. Will you pledge tonight that once all legal challenges have been exhausted that you will accept the results of this election regardless of who wins. And you will say right now that political violence in any form is unacceptable? [22:25:13] TRUMP: Well, I shouldn't have to say that, but of course, I believe that. It's totally unacceptable. And if you would see my statements that I made on Twitter at the time and also my statement that I made in the Rose Garden, you would say it's one of the strongest statements you've ever seen. In addition to the speech I made in front of, I believe, the largest crowd I've ever spoken to. And I will tell you, nobody ever talks about that. They talk about a relatively small number of people that went to the Capitol and in many cases were ushered in by the police. And as Nancy Pelosi said, it was her responsibility, not mine. She said that loud and clear. But the answer is, if the election is fair, free -- and I want that more than anybody. And I'll tell you something. I wish he was a great president because I wouldn't be here right now. I'd be at one of my many places enjoying myself, I wouldn't be under indictment because I wouldn't have been his political opponent, because he indicted me, because I was his opponent. I wish he was a great president. I would rather have that. I wouldn't be here. I don't mind being here. But the only reason I'm here is he's so bad as a president that I'm going to make America great again. We're going to make America great again. We're a failing nation right now. We're a seriously failing nation. And we're a failing nation because of him. His policies are so bad. His military policies are insane. They're insane. These are wars that will never end with him. He will drive us into World War III and were closer to world War III than anybody can imagine. We are very, very close to World War III. And he's driving us there. And Kim Jong Un and President Xi of China, Kim Jong Un of North Korea, all of these -- Putin, they don't respect him. They don't fear him. They have nothing going with this gentleman and he's going to drive us into world War III. BIDEN: You want a World War III? Let him follow and win. And let Putin say, do what you want, NATO, just do what you want. There's a thing called Article V. An attack on one is attack on all and required response. The idea -- the idea, I can't think of a single major leader in the world who wouldn't trade places with the job I've done and what they've done, because we are a powerful nation. We have wonderful peace because of the people, not me. It's because of the American people. They're capable of anything, and they step up when they're needed. And right now, we're needed. We're needed to protect the world because our own safety is at stake. And again, you want to have a war? Just let Putin go ahead and take Kyiv. Make sure they move on. See what happens in Poland, Hungary and other places along that border. Then you have a war. BASH: President Trump, as I come back to you, for a follow up. The question was, will you accept the results of this election, regardless of who wins? TRUMP: Just to finish what he said, if I may. Russia, they took a lot of land from Bush. They took a lot of land from Obama and Biden. They took no land, nothing from Trump. Nothing. He knew not to do it. He's not going to play games with me. He knew that. I got along with him very well, but he knew not to play games. He took nothing from me. But now he's going to take the whole thing from this man right here. That's a war that should have never started. It would have never started ever with me. And he's going to take Ukraine. And, you know, you asked me a question before. Would you do this? He's got us in such a bad position right now with with Ukraine and Russia because Ukraine's not winning that war. He said, I will never settle until such time. They're running out of people. They're running out of soldiers. They've lost so many people. It's so sad. They've lost so many people and they've lost those gorgeous cities with the golden domes that are a thousand years old, all because of him and stupid decisions. Russia would have never attacked if I were president. BASH: President Trump, the question was, will you accept the results of the election regardless of who wins. Yes or no, please. TRUMP: If it's a fair and legal and good election, absolutely. I would have much rather accepted these, but the fraud and everything else was ridiculous. And if you want, we'll have a news conference on it in a week or we'll have another one of these in a week. But I will -- absolutely, there's nothing I'd rather do. It would be much easier for me to do that than I'm running again. I wasn't really going to run until I saw the horrible job he did. He's destroying our country. I would be very happy to be someplace else, in a nice location someplace. And again, no indictments, no political opponent stuff because it's the only way he thinks he can win. But unfortunately, it's driven up my numbers and driven them up to a very high level, because the people understand it. BIDEN: Let's see what your numbers are when this election is over. Let's see. You're a whiner. When you lost the first time, you continued, you appealed and appealed the courts all across the country. Not one single court in America said any of your claims had any merit, state or local, none. [22:30:19] But you continue to provoke this lie about somehow there's all this misrepresentation, all this stealing. There is no evidence of that at all. And I tell you what, I doubt whether you'll accept it because you're such a whiner. The idea, if you lose again, you accepted anything, you can't stand the loss. Something snapped in you when you lost the last time. (END VIDEO CLIP) DANA BASH, CNN ANCHOR: We'll be right back with more from the "CNN Presidential Debate" live from Georgia. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) TAPPER: It is now time for the candidates to deliver their closing statements as predetermined by a coin toss. We're going to begin with you, President Biden. You have two minutes. BIDEN: We've made significant progress from the debacle that was left by President Trump in his last term. We find ourselves in a situation where, number one, we have to make sure that we have a fair tax system. I ask anyone out there in the audience, or anyone out watching this debate, do you think the tax system is fair? [22:35:00] The fact is that I said nobody would make it under $400,000 had a single penny increase in their taxes. And if I'm reelected, that will be the case again. But this guy has increased your taxes because of the deficit, number one. He's increased inflation because of the debacle he left after the way he handled the pandemic. And he finds himself in a position where he now wants to tax you more by putting a 10% tariff on everything that comes into the United States of America. What I did, for example, he wants to get rid of the ability of Medicare -- for the ability -- for us to be able to negotiate drug prices with the big pharma companies. Well, guess what? We got it down to $35 for insulin instead of $400. No more than $2,000 for every senior, no matter how much prescription they need. You know what that did? That reduced the federal debt by $160 billion over 10 years because the government doesn't have to pay the exorbitant prices. I'm going to make that available to every senior all along what is happening now and everybody in America. He wants to get rid of that. I'm going to make sure that we have child care. We're going to significantly increase the credit people have for child care. I'm going to make sure we do something about what we're doing on lead pipes and all the things that are causing health problems for people across the country. We're going to continue to fight to bring down inflation and give people a break. TAPPER: Thank you, President Biden. President Trump, you now have two minutes for your closing statement. TRUMP: Like so many politicians, this man is just a complainer. He said, we want to do this. We want to do that. We want to get rid of this tax, that tax. But he doesn't do anything. He doesn't do -- all he does is make our country unsafe by allowing millions and millions of people to pour in. Our military doesn't respect him. We look like fools in Afghanistan. We didn't stop Israel. It was such a horrible thing. That would have never happened. It should have never happened. Iran was broke. Anybody that did business with Iran, including China, they couldn't do business with the United States. They all passed. Iran was broke. They had no money for Hamas or Hezbollah for terror, no money whatsoever. Again, Ukraine should have never happened. He talks about all this stuff, but he didn't do it for three and a half years we're living in hell. We have the Palestinians and we have everybody else rioting all over the place. You talk about Charlottesville. This is a hundred times Charlottesville, a thousand times. The whole country is exploding because of you, because they don't respect you and they have to respect their president and they don't respect you throughout the world. What we did was incredible. We rebuilt the military. We got the largest tax cut in history, the largest regulation cut in history. The reason he's got jobs is because I cut the regulations that gave jobs. But he's putting a lot of those regulations back on. All of the things that we've done, nobody's ever -- never seen anything, like even from a medical standpoint. Right to try where we can try space age materials instead of going to Asia or going to Europe and trying to get when you're terminally ill. Now you can go and you can get something. You sign a document. They've been trying to get it for 42 years. But you know what we did for the military was incredible choice for our soldiers, where our soldiers, instead of waiting for three months to see a doctor, can go out and get themselves fixed up and readied up and take care of themselves and their living. And that's why I had the highest approval rating in the history of the V.A. So all of these things were in a failing nation, but it's not going to be failing anymore. We're going to make it great again. BASH: Thank you, former President Trump, President Biden. Stay with us because we have full analysis of this debate. Anderson Cooper and Erin Burnett starts now on CNN. ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: The president and former presidents making their way off the CNN debate stage. Looks like Jill Biden, the first lady, has come out. Former President Trump walking off the stage. The first debate of the 2024 campaign and the earliest presidential debate ever now in the books and in front of the voters. Tonight, along with Erin Burnett, the first word on what those voters might make of it from our political professionals, from our CNN flash poll and swing state focus group. We'll be talking to surrogates, including Vice President Harris, getting fact checks from our Daniel Dale, and new reporting from inside both campaigns. With me here, CNN political commentator Scott Jennings, Kate Bedingfield, David Urban, Van Jones, Alyssa Farah-Griffin, and "NewsNight" anchor Abby Phillip and David Axelrod, and CNN chief national correspondent John King. John, let me start with you. Your thoughts. [22:40:03] JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, this was a game-changing debate in the sense that right now, as we speak, there is a deep, a wide, and a very aggressive panic in the Democratic Party. It started minutes into the debate and it continues right now. It involves party strategists, it involves elected officials, it involves fundraisers. Ad they're having conversations about the president's performance, which they think was dismal, which they think will hurt other people down the party in the ticket, and they're having conversations about what they should do about it. Some of those conversations include, should we go to the White House and ask the president to step aside? Others are -- other of the conversations are about, should prominent Democrats go public with that call, because they feel this debate was so terrible. They do say, in moments in the debate later, the president got better and got his footing, but then at the end, even his closing statement was a little halting. The contrast between the two candidates. Let me be clear, none of them, and a lot of Republicans, don't think Donald Trump had a great night. Donald Trump broke the fact-check machine more than I can count tonight. That will be on the record as we go forward. He refused to answer some very specific and direct questions about his conduct, about January 6th and what all, so that will be dealt with out there, and sometimes there's a parallel universe between the political elites and the American people. Be nice to see what the voters say, but I can tell you, it started minutes in. It started with the first couple of answers, and it has continued throughout the night from, oh my god, oh my god, oh my god, to what do we do about this, and it involves very senior people in the Democratic Party, including elected officials, saying we have a problem. ABBY PHILLIP, ANCHOR: And just to co-sign what John is saying, I mean, the panic that I am hearing from Democrats is not like anything that I have heard in this campaign so far. And a lot of it has to do with, first of all, there was a deep frustration about Trump's lies. I mean, he lied a lot tonight. But the problem for Biden was that Trump was able to take sometimes incredible falsehoods and turn them into some kind of argument, whereas Biden's answers were in a lot of cases not coherent, deeply problematic, that he was not able to take pretty straightforward answers and answer them to the American public, and then also at some points bringing things up that teed up Trump attacks. So, there's a real concern here tonight that there's been some real damage done that cannot be undone. Biden solidified the perception among voters, but especially among his base. They were hoping that tonight would be a game-changer. They are now seeing a president who is in the White House, who they do not necessarily believe can do this for another four years. COOPER: David Axelrod? DAVID AXELROD, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Look, I can't argue with either of them about how Democratic leaders are reacting to this poll. We said at the beginning that each person had a fundamental goal, and for Biden that goal was to appear energetic, engaged, and look like someone who is capable of serving for another four years for president. That was job number one. I actually think he scored a bunch of points. I think if you just judge this on sort of policy stuff, he did score a bunch of points on issues like abortion, for example, on some of the economic issues. But there is a feeling, I think there was a sense of shock, actually, at how he came out at the beginning of this debate, how his voice sounded. You know, he seemed a little disoriented. He did get stronger as the debate went on, but by that time, I think the panic had set in. And I think you're going to hear discussions that I don't know will lead to anything, but you know, there are going to be discussions about whether he should continue. And I think part of it is Donald Trump did not meet his mission either. He could not resist the temptation to be nasty, to prevaricate about a whole bunch of things, about his own record, about Biden's record, and to seem petty and small at times. So, what you saw was a candidate who's deeply vulnerable and a president who may not be able to take advantage of it. DAVID URBAN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Listen, if anybody in America thinks that that was even close to being an okay debate by Joe Biden, I'm living in a parallel universe. That was an unmitigated disaster for President Biden from the second he walked out to the closing statement. The biggest issue for Democrats is abortion, and he couldn't give an answer. He gave an answer -- he couldn't even give a coherent answer on the biggest issue for Democrats tonight. I've heard from leading Democrats across the United States, elected governors, congressmen who are texting me and saying, I'm worried I'm going to lose if Joe Biden's at the top of the ticket. [22:45:00] Bob Casey, I promise you tonight in the state of Pennsylvania, is thrown up in his mouth because he knows that if he's going to stand next to Joe Biden, he's going down in Pennsylvania. If he's on the ticket, I don't know how it's going to work. KATE BEDINGFIELD, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yeah, look, it was a really disappointing debate performance from Joe Biden. I don't think there's any way, any other way to slice it. His biggest issue that he had to prove to the American people was that he had the energy, he had the stamina, and he didn't do that. And so I think that is of concern. And I think for a lot of Democrats, that's very disappointing. I will say Donald Trump also had some really rough moments in this debate. And talking to the Biden campaign, they say, you know, their dials started really moving away from Trump as he was increasing his personal attacks on Biden. So I think there was a lot about his kind of character and the kind of personal nastiness that he was putting on display, you know, that doesn't help him with the swing voters that he needs. You know, and I also think you saw him continue to get sort of more and more animated across the course of the debate and, you know, give some really problematic answers about January 6, some really problematic answers about Putin. So, you know, Donald Trump did not get off scot-free tonight by any stretch. But look, there is no two ways about it. That was not a good debate for Joe Biden. COOPER: Van? VAN JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: That was painful. I love Joe Biden. I work for Joe Biden. He didn't do well at all. He did not do well at all. And he looked -- you know, I'll give you the analysis, you kind of have the old man versus the con man. I can walk you through how I'm supposed to see it and say it. But I just want to speak from my heart. I love that guy. That's a good man. He loves his country. He's doing the best that he can. But he had a test to meet tonight to restore confidence of the country and of the base. And he failed to do that. And I think there's a lot of people who are going to want to see him consider taking a different course now. We're still far from our convention. And there is time for this party to figure out a different way forward if he will allow us to do that. But that was not what we needed from Joe Biden. And it's personally painful for a lot of people. It's not just panic. It's pain of what we saw tonight. ALYSSA FARAH-GRIFFIN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: And if I may just add to that, I think Joe Biden lost in the first three minutes. I think a lot of voters probably tuned out and millions of people are having conversations with their families, with their friends of if the president is up to the task and if he should step aside. And I'm someone who believes the former president is a threat to democracy. I think he is a threat to the America as we know it. He wants to fundamentally change our institutions. He has laid out what his plan is. I am not confident that that is the man to take him on. You cannot tell me democracy is on the line and then give that performance tonight. If based on that in 18 weeks, Donald Trump will be the president-elect. KING: The people doing focus groups tonight, and we'll see if our dial group with Laura Coates confirms this, say that Biden actually scores pretty well on the issues when he's talking about the substance. And Trump's numbers went down both because he was ducking questions, he was lying about some things, and he was refusing to answer. And some of it was the tone. They don't like him. So when you see that, you know, when you see sort of the statistics, you're going to look at like, oh, that's a mixed bag. But to Van's point about the president's performance, that's what caused the panic. So the question is, and my question actually is, what happens? Because it's a great political strength of Joe Biden, it's his resilience and his stubbornness. It's also sometimes a blind spot because he is so stubborn. It's going to be very hard to someone, and I don't know who it is, who could go to Joe Biden and say, you need to do this, number one. And the question is, again, like I'm just telling you, to Abby's point, I've been doing this for 30 something years, going on 40 years, and I have never, ever had what happened on this thing tonight happen in the middle of the debate. It started early and it continued. And to Van's point, Van made a very important point. These are people who love Joe Biden, who credit Joe Biden for kicking Donald Trump out of the White House. They're Democrats. The Democratic Party is a very diverse party. It fights about a lot of things. It has generational issues. It's had regional issues and everything else. The thing that unites the Democratic Party is trying to keep Donald Trump from getting back into the White House. They love Joe Biden for kicking him out. They don't want him back. They came into this debate nervous that Biden was in a weak position. They leave this debate panicked. URBAN: John, if you love the guy, how could you put him out there? If you love him, if you love Joe Biden, if that was my father, you don't put a guy in that situation. KING: It's a great point. These guys know this better. These guys know this better because they talk to them. There's this legacy in the Democratic Party. You don't challenge the incumbent because when it's happened in the past, they haven't beaten the incumbent. And then the incumbent has lost the general election. AXELROD: It was actually Donald Trump that helped make Joe Biden the nominee because there was a feeling that if there were a primary, that that would weaken -- that Biden would probably win, but it would weaken him in a general election. And so there were people who could have run and didn't run because the history of that is bad. The point is now he is the nominee of the Democratic Party. [22:50:00] This isn't the '60s, okay? Voters choose the nominee. He is the nominee. Only he can decide whether he's going to continue. And as you point out, and as Kate knows very well, this is a guy with a lot of pride and who believes in himself. And the idea that he's going to say, you know what? I had a bad debate. I think I'm going to walk away from this. I find it hard to believe. BEDINGFIELD: It was also and I'll let you -- I know, Scott, you can try to jump in. But it was also -- it was an atypically bad performance, okay? And it was also one night. So, yes, was it an important night? Yes. But it was one night in the course of a campaign. So I think let's see how voters react to it. Let's see how voters react to it. AXELROD: The problem with the one night is that it's a one night that helped confirm people's fears. It's the one night that everybody was watching. It was that was essentially, you know, Trump said you ought to take a test. That was his test. And people are going to feel that he came up wanting not on the substance. I think he actually won on the substance. BEDINGFIELD: Yeah. AXELROD: I don't think Trump did well. BEDINGFIELD: Yeah. AXELROD: I think what it says to a lot of people, a lot of active Democrats is, man, we can beat this guy, but I don't know if we can beat him with the president (ph). COOPER: Scott, we haven't heard from you. SCOTT JENNINGS, SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: When we came on before this debate, I said I thought this candidacy was teetering. And everybody jumped on me. UNKNOWN: Yes, we did. Yes, we did. JENNINGS: Every single person out here. And I just -- the candidacy has fallen, okay. Man, I know you're speaking from your heart. I'm worried about the president. We should pray for the president. I think his advisers, I think the White House and I think his family have a lot of explaining to do to their party and to the American people. This night, this one night was caused by and asked for by the Biden team. They wanted this night. And this is what we got. We have been told for weeks, weeks by Democrats who say, oh, in private meetings, I've seen Joe Biden do cartwheels and handstands while doing trigonometry, while solving all the nation's problems. We now know that every single person who said that has been lying to the American people. BEDINGFIELD: Including Kevin McCarthy. JENNINGS: We've been told, Kate -- BEDINGFIELD: I mean, I'm just saying. JENNINGS: Kate, everything we've been told about his mental acuity by these Democrats has been a lie. And everything we think we knew has been confirmed. I got a text from a friend. She's not terribly political. She maxed out to Biden in the last election because she hates Donald Trump. She said to me, I will never forgive the Democratic Party for this election. If the Democrats truly believe that he is an existential threat to democracy and that's not just some talking point, they will wake up in the morning and they will do something else because this is not sustainable. PHILLIP: That's another point about there are Democrats who are panicking. And then there are a lot of Republicans who did not want to vote for Donald Trump, who do not want to vote for Donald Trump, who are also panicking tonight. I heard from one who said this is scary. That's how it was described to me. BEDINGFIELD: I'd second that. PHILLIP: There were a lot -- there was a lot -- there were a lot of those feelings, not just from the base of the party, but other people who really think that there should be an alternative to Trump, who they think is dangerous. And that's the other part of what is unfolding tonight in terms of the panic that is out there. KING: You already have coming into this debate, support for third party candidates, Robert F. Kennedy Jr., highest, and then Jill Stein and Cornel West nowhere near as close. But if you add it all up, you get into the teens in most states when you do that. I think one byproduct out of this is to watch and see if those numbers go up a little bit. I'm not saying they're going to go up anywhere like a Perot standard, but you get to -- you get to third party candidates getting into double digits, then that's really starts to twist your electoral math state, depending on who they're drawing from state by state. This was already a very complicated race. This is within -- number one, the biggest complication right now is conversation with the Democratic Party. But the other complication is going to be if Joe Biden stays put and Kate's right, maybe it'll be another debate. I'm not sure Donald Trump's going to agree to a second debate. Biden's going to need it now. I'm not sure Trump's going to agree to it if the dynamics of the race change. I would also watch the third party. AXELROD: I just want to say one thing, especially to you two guys. If for whatever reason, there's a change at the top of the ticket, you guys are in trouble with Donald Trump because the guy who was up there tonight is not a guy who's going to inspire people. He did not show in any way that he has changed from the guy who -- people have a very positive opinion of for a lot of good reason. JENNINGS: I think Donald Trump won several policy exchanges tonight. I think he did well on immigration. I think he did well on the economy. I think he did well on inflation. I think he went back to Afghanistan, as he should have. [22:55:00] The thing he did not do was after he realized that he had Biden beaten on policy and on image, he should have turned the page and sounded an optimistic note about what we can become as a people and as a country. He did not do that. He continued to pummel Joe Biden all night. I understand what you're saying, but at the end of the night, very few things about the policy exchanges are going to be remembered. People are going to remember Joe Biden -- (CROSSTALK) They're going to remember him shuffling out. They're going to remember him staring blankly into the camera. They're going to remember him looking down, losing his train of thought. And they're going to remember that everything I thought I knew, but the White House told me, don't believe my own eyes, is actually true. AXELROD: But that's not -- what I said, Scott, was if Joe Biden were not the candidate, if there was another candidate, I think Donald Trump would be in deep trouble. (CROSSTALK) GRIFFIN: But if I may, that is such a sad state of affair. Something I was consistently hearing is what a bad debate in the sense that Donald Trump lied throughout. He misrepresented. He tried to turn away from key points that he should have given answers on and kept and kept deflecting. With any normal generic Democrat next to him, I don't think he would have won the night. But you put somebody who was suffering from the moment that they got out. It was hard to watch. I had to occasionally look away because it was so uncomfortable. I think America deserves better than the options that are in front of them. It's really devastating. And by the way, our allies are watching. JONES: Yeah. Look, I mean, the way that I would try to phrase it, if I were less emotional, is Biden stuttered, but he told the truth. He looked terrible. His policies were good. Trump spoke plainly, but he lied the whole time. And he looked good, but his policies were terrible. I mean, he's going to do nothing on climate change. He was hugging the cactus on abortion. I mean, his policies are terrible. So you have somebody who probably shouldn't be president, and you have somebody who cannot be president in terms of what Donald Trump represents. So we have a problem as a country now. And this might be an opportunity for people to come together and figure this out, because neither one of those people right now are inspiring the confidence that they should inspire, that they can do the job in a way that would be good for the country. GRIFFIN: But young voters are up for grabs in this election. I don't know a voter under 30 who would have watched tonight and could say, I have confidence in Joe Biden and casting my vote for four more years of Biden. JENNINGS: And this opens the door, by the way, for the conversation about if Joe Biden remains the candidate, you're not voting for Joe Biden. You are voting for President Kamala Harris. Let's be honest. That is where the Trump campaign is going to go with this. They started down this road with an ad they released today. But this conversation about who you're actually casting your vote for, the volume is going to ratchet up. And I got news for you. She's less popular than he is. That is going to be a big problem for the Democrats if this ticket stays the way it is. URBAN: Yeah. And it's Scott's Democratic friend who maxed out, right? That's the that's the sentiment you're going to hear, I think. Some of my Democratic friends who are texting me saying, I can't believe this is where we are, right. COOPER: Yeah. URBAN: I can't -- I don't forget -- I can't -- I'm not going to be able to forgive the party for putting it in this position. BEDINGFIELD: Like, I also think -- PHILLIP: Lies about -- on Donald Trump's lies, I mean, I spent a lot of time thinking about this throughout the debate because, you know, we in the media, I sit in the chair and I fact check Trump all the time. So I know these lies by heart at this point. But people watching from home do not. And Biden's job as the other person on the other side of the stage is to be the one to very quickly dispense with the lies and to shut them down. And I don't think that happened enough times in a coherent way to blunt the fact that Trump was taking a universe that was built on a house of lies and building a whole world for the millions of people watching. COOPER: Particularly on some of the most basic subject matters that President Biden should have been able to just -- PHILLIP: And that world -- that world that he was able to build, it was not knocked down by the president. That is really at the heart of the problem. He may have won when he was making his discreet policy points. But part of the job on the debate stage is dealing with an opponent like Donald Trump who goes like a mile a minute on things that are not true. And if you don't deal with that, I don't know. AXELROD: I'm not sure, Abby. PHILLIP: But no one at home is doing that. AXELROD: All I want to say is I'm not sure. I don't think you're giving viewers enough credit. I think what they saw was the Trump that they didn't like. And I don't think he did himself a great service. BEDINGFIELD: Yes. But I also think we should just -- I also think we should let voters absorb this and see what they say, right. Let's look at the bias. COOPER: Yeah, it might surprise you -- BEDINGFIELD: But let's look at (inaudible). Let's look where they are next week. We could make our pronouncements. Ultimately, voters have to absorb and -- AXELROD: They're going put your mics off, guys. URBAN: Real quickly on the one thing that, you know, that Biden did fact check him on, on the Charlottesville thing, he was completely wrong. And so he's up there talking about Charlottesville and Trump not denouncing the two, you know, two sides. And Snopes is out last week, seven months ago -- seven years too late kind of thing on the deal. [23:00:00] And that's the thing Joe Biden's going to fact check him on, something that was proven false. … CNN Live Event / Special Aired June 27, 2024 - 23:00 ET THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED. [23:00:00] … ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: We're going to have more with the panel out here. A lot of notable moments, painful moments from tonight. But as we've been talking about, perhaps a single defining one as well, this one early on. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Making sure that we're able to make every single solitary person eligible for what I've been able to do with the COVID -- excuse me, with dealing with everything we have to do with -- look, if we finally beat Medicare -- JAKE TAPPER, CNN CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Thank you, President Biden. President Trump? DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, he's right, he did beat Medicare, he beat it to death, and he's destroying Medicare. (END VIDEO CLIP) COOPER: That was one notable moment early on. Let's go to Erin in the spin room. Erin? ERIN BURNETT, CNN ANCHOR: That's right. You know, that was a moment. I'm sure Anderson, that you, your panel, me, my panel, and people around the country, that was a painful moment to watch. It was early on in the debate, and Adi, Kaitlin, and Chris are here, it was very early on. Chris, it seemed from that moment, that was it. CHRIS WALLACE, CNN ANCHOR: I think it was even before that moment when he first started speaking, President Biden. And the raspiness, the hoarseness in his voice, that was at 9-11. And, you know, there were several minutes when Jake and Dana were setting the rules, so it's got to have been less than 10 minutes into the debate, and he totally lost his train of thought and ended up saying Medicare just out of the blue. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) WALLACE: You know, we've heard so much from the other panel about their reactions to this. I think ever since, and I've had this conversation so often -- BURNETT: Yeah. WALLACE: -- that after the midterms, if Joe Biden, after a remarkably successful first two years and a remarkably successful midterm for a first-term president, had said, you know, I'm the transitional president -- BURNETT: Yeah. WALLACE: -- and I'm moving on and sending it to another generation, but he was unwilling to do that and Jill Biden was unwilling to do that. And ever since then, we have been -- BURNETT: I'm just -- I'm just -- as you're saying that, I'm only interrupting you Chris because that is a watch party, that's live right now, Jill Biden. Joe Biden is joining her at the watch party she was at, in Atlanta. Obviously, a response that does not match what seems to be the broader response. They're cheering for him right there, as you can see. CROWD: Four more years! Four more years! BURNETT: Four more years. WALLACE: Do we want to watch that or -- BURNETT: No, no, no, we don't have to. WALLACE: Okay. Anyway, I was just going to say that the two of them decided after November of 2022 that he was going to seek the presidency when there were so many people who thought he should have turned it over to a new generation. And this has been, quite frankly, a car accident in slow motion that we've seen over and building and questioning it and, you know, as has been pointed out, Joe Biden sought this debate at this remarkably early time because he knew he was losing and he needed to change the narrative. And he did change the narrative. He sunk his campaign tonight. KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN HOST: Well -- and we're in the spin room right now. This is where the surrogates and allies of the campaign come to spin their candidates' respective performances, and it is going to be an immense challenge for Biden's surrogates. We have Governor Gavin Newsom here and also Georgia Senator Raphael Warnock in the back of the room. There are Trump campaign aides in here as well. No reporters are talking to them. Every reporter in here has just swarmed the two Biden surrogates that are inside this room. And I think what I'm most struck by after listening to that entire performance and talking to the Biden campaign officials and covering President Biden myself, his first two years in office, was part of his closing statement there. He made no mention of abortion or Donald Trump's felony conviction, the two things that they have talked about the most. The fact that that is the biggest contrast between President Biden and former President Donald Trump, obviously, the felony conviction, but also what they've done on reproductive rights, and the fact that three of the justices who helped overturn Roe versus Wade were put on the Supreme Court by former President Donald Trump. But on January 6th itself as an issue, Donald Trump lied about January 6th. He downplayed his own role. And he also claimed that police officers were ushering people in that day. They've testified they were actually overwhelmed and outnumbered, and that is why people were able to get into the Capitol that day. And President Biden, who delivered an address on the anniversary of January 6th and said that Donald Trump was holding a dagger to the throat of democracy, did not seize on that moment -- (CROSSTALK) BURNETT: So, can I just for a moment, because we can hear him, and this is happening right now. So just in this moment, he's at a watch party, they're cheering four more years, he's speaking. What I'm curious about, okay, is, does he know how bad this was at this moment? He walked out to his aides. Does he know? I mean, you can hear him a little bit on the mic. WALLACE: If he doesn't know, that's more alarming than anything. You know, he's not the first president who's had a really -- BURNETT: Since we can hear it, why don't we listen to a little bit of it? WALLACE: Okay. BURNETT: Okay. [23:05:00] BIDEN: Heading to North Carolina. (APPLAUSE) All right. Thank you, thank you, thank you. I want to go home with you. Thank you. (APPLAUSE) BURNETT: All right. So, there he is. Thank you, thank you. The rousing applause. Going to that party. COLLINS: He wasn't a third that vibrant or vigorous inside -- inside the debate, Audie. AUDIE CORNISH, CNN HOST AND CORRESPONDENT, PODCAST HOST: Yeah. I mean, I think fundamentally, I think a lot of Americans saw Donald Trump they recognize tonight, right? His mannerisms, his quickness, and his response. And, as you talked about, lies and information that was incorrect. Unfortunately, they also saw a Joe Biden maybe they don't recognize. This is not the person who was quick on his feet or fast to parry or to respond quickly to misinformation, to respond quickly to lies. WALLACE: He hasn't been that Joe Biden in a long time. This was the -- CORNISH: Well -- WALLACE: This is culmination of a process. CORNISH: Perhaps, but it also was stark. You know, before I went into this conversation, I thought about the idea of infirm versus unstable. (END VIDEO CLIP) And I think that Joe Biden did not do enough to mitigate the idea that he is infirm. And Donald Trump was able to mitigate looking unstable. When I think about how he talked about abortion, for instance, trying to show that he was not extreme in some way. I know people are pointing out his lies tonight. That is also something that Joe Biden was to be doing in a more effective way and did not. And so, it's sort of hard to be here now and say this is what's said and that was said, like, that's your job on the stage to also jump in quickly. BURNETT: There were also moments where the sentence would end and there was maybe an attempt to have a back and forth between them. Obviously, because of the mics, they weren't able to do that. And then there would be another question. (CROSSTALK) CORNISH: You have to use your time effectively. And unfortunately, the president did not do that. WALLACE: I'm going to pick up on that. I mean, there was a question asked about what are you going to do for Blacks and Black voters, which is a constituency that Biden is in terrible jeopardy of losing. He finishes his statement. And the moderator, I forget which one, says, you have 49 seconds left, basically almost half of your two minutes. Then he's asked about Social Security, and I think it was Dana who says, you have 82 seconds left. I mean, he wasn't able to even fill the two-minute time he was given. The other guy's mic goes up to talk about Black voters and protecting Social Security. CORNISH: And not to -- I don't speak on behalf of Black voters, but that was a great example of an issue where both of them sounded just like wild. What is the policy? What is a black job and a black child care? It was like, what is happening? It was very similar to the end when they started going off about golf. Why? I mean, those are those moments where I think as a voter, you're just like, these are the options and it doesn't feel great. COLLINS: One of the number one concerns that you hear from parents in this country, parents have to quit their jobs because it's less expensive for one person to not work instead of having to pay for child care. Neither of them gave a substantive answer on that. They were both answering questions about very different topics. I mean, Chris and I turned to each other and said, this is a question about child care costs. CORNISH: A lot of clumsy kind of response. BURNETT: Yeah. COLLINS: But I'll note that the mics -- and that was -- the Biden campaign agreed to that. They wanted that because they were so frustrated by how that first debate in 2020 went on this issue. And you did see Biden not using his time effectively with that -- with those times where Trump was not answering the question. I mean, Trump was asked three times if he would accept the results of the 2024 election. Obviously, a critical question as we find ourselves in a state where he sought to overturn the election results here and was indicted and had his mugshot taken about three miles from where we're sitting right now. And that was not a moment that became a point of focus. It was like watching a debate with someone who is not a convicted felon and is not also under all of these criminal charges. I think that is a question of why President Biden himself, who brings it up in other moments, did not use it more effectively. They used it in the one moment where he brought up Stormy Daniels as well. CORNISH: Right. COLLINS: Donald Trump denied having sex with her in another surreal moment in this debate. I don't think that that's ever been uttered on a presidential debate stage. But it was something that you see President Biden talk more about from -- from the White House or in front of donors. CORNISH: Even Trump's attempt to spin January 6. I just thought, oh, here we are in one of the most bizarre moments, right? The idea that actually on January 6, there was a lot of good things happening. And if you just think back to that, it was just so sort of a wild way to spin that. COLLINS: How does this happen? CORNISH: And again, Biden -- WALLACE: I thought it was a pretty effective way to spin. CORNISH: Well, it would be less if the president could respond to it. (LAUGHTER) WALLACE: Right. Yeah. (CROSSTALK) BURNETT: Chris, he goes to six days of preparation at Camp David. WALLACE: More than that. BURNETT: And they know the rules. WALLACE: It was more than a week. BURNETT: Okay, they -- so, more than a week. They know the rules. He practices with the mics. He knows every one of these questions is coming, and yet he couldn't fill the time. Now, I just want to -- let's see what the White House is saying. [23:10:00] Sources close to the White House are saying he had a cold, wasn't feeling well. I mean, as you would expect, that came out early on in the debate. But what accounts for someone with so much experience, doing so much preparation, and this became the outcome? WALLACE: Honestly, I think the question answers itself. He wasn't capable of doing any better than he did. He had it all. He -- CORNISH: There's a world where he prepared to not go over the two minutes. WALLACE: That he was incapable tonight on the biggest of stages that he saw. He, in effect, dictated. And with all of that preparation, he was incapable of doing better than he was. And you can't come back from that. You can't be in a state where tens of millions of Americans watch you and come up empty. And that's what he did tonight. BURNETT: He almost seemed a bit nervous at the beginning, Audie. CORNISH: We could read all kinds of things into the facial expressions and, you know, the utterances. But I think at the end of the day, we heard the partisan panel start to wistfully look in the air and talk about what if he wasn't on the ticket. And I think that kind of language and the kinds of things that you're going to see over the next 24 hours is really going to be the important conversation. This debate was early. Is it early enough for there to be some other discussion, more fulsome, taken more seriously? And we'll find that out. WALLACE: And one of the questions I have is, who -- if Joe and Jill Biden don't make that decision on their own, is there anybody in the party? Because, you know, the party's system has been so weakened. There were a group of people that came to Richard Nixon in August of 1974 and said, you know what? You got to leave. You're -- you don't -- you have four votes in the -- in the Senate and you either resign or you're going to be removed from office. I'm not sure there's anybody with that kind of authority in the Democratic Party who could go to Joe Biden and say, it's time to say goodbye. COLLINS: And they said that President Biden had a cold and he was recovering from that. That came about 50 minutes into the debate -- CORNISH: Into the debate, yeah. COLLINS: -- after he had been on. Obviously, they're passing that on -- on background to reporters who are tweeting it. Voters who are watching at home, millions of them who have never even considered having a Twitter account, are not going to see that. And it's not really going to -- to help reassure voters because we do live in this moment where President Obama had a really terrible first debate. His own aides will now admit it, that he came off and he wasn't prepared and he wasn't ready, and Mitt Romney surpassed him in that debate. What's different about this is that voters already had quite high concerns about President Biden's age. And this was a moment where they were hoping it would look more like the State of the Union address and how he came out there and how he dealt with the Republicans who were heckling him. Here in this debate, President Trump would give his answer and President Biden would come out and say that's a lot of malarkey, that's a lot of foolishness. But he didn't have the same demeanor that he did in 2020, where he looked directly at the camera and said, it's not about this, it's about you at home who are having these moments. He wasn't smiling and laughing as much as he was in the first debate. It was a very different demeanor and how he handled Trump. Trump, on the other hand, was not even making eye contact. He wouldn't even look at President Biden or in his direction as he was trying to stick to -- to the messaging or he would redirect a question about in general of his resigning into Biden and Afghanistan. He was taking those moments. And that is something that the Trump campaign worked with Trump on privately. And I can tell you, obviously, this is the Trump campaign, this is what they're saying. They could not be more thrilled with how tonight went and feel really good about it. And they were nervous going into this debate, of how Donald Trump would do. And now, they're walking out of it feeling pretty good. BURNETT: Yes, certainly. Maybe didn't expect -- WALLACE: Somebody -- somebody sent me an emoji, a top person in the Trump campaign. Just for flames, for dumpster fire flames. Another one wrote, train wreck. They couldn't feel better about it. And they should feel good about it. BURNETT: All right -- WALLACE: It was a very good night. And the one thing I will say for Trump, and there's no question, he lied about a lot of stuff -- BURNETT: A lot. WALLACE: -- but he also showed real discipline. And, you know, one of the big questions -- you talked about unstable versus un-firm. He was not unstable and he was very controlled, and controlled even in the lies. COLLINS: But he called -- WALLACE: He had discipline. COLLINS: He called Biden a Manchurian candidate. He lied about late term abortions and completely misrepresented what happened on January 6th as well. BURNETT: Well, there were many there were many things that were not true, but -- WALLACE: But it was not a repeat of 2020. BURNETT: It's unstable sort of perspective. All right, all stay with me for more reaction. Anderson, I know we've got to hear what the White House has to say now. COOPER: Yeah. I want to bring in senior White House correspondent MJ Lee, who covers the Biden campaign, how they're seeing this tonight. Yeah. What are they saying? MJ LEE, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, well, Anderson, obviously, a ton of Democrats, voters, elected officials were tuning in tonight, really nervous and really desperate for President Biden to give his A performance. And after his performance, it has really set off panic. [23:15:00] There was one Democratic congressman I was in touch with who was on Capitol Hill at a watch party with a number of other lawmakers. And that moment early on in the debate where President Biden was talking about the national debt and seemed to lose his train of thought, paused for several seconds and then gave a confusing answer, he said that when that happened, the entire room was just completely silent and in shock, and that this member's own reaction was that he wanted to jump off of a bridge. And he said that throughout the course of the 90 minutes of the debate, he and the other lawmakers in the room felt like Donald Trump looked young and Joe Biden looked old, and that Donald Trump seemed to mostly be on the offensive and that Joe Biden seemed to be mostly on the defense. Democrats, he said, are just panicked right now and don't even know what to do. I mean, these are some really devastating reviews for a Biden campaign that really wanted to use tonight to dispel this notion that President Biden is too old for a second term. You and I were just talking about right before the debate how Biden advisors were hoping that for tonight, a lot of Americans would be tuning in and seeing a President Biden that was more than just the 5, 10, 15-second clips that they often see on social media where he does look feeble or older. And now, we have another example of the kind of moment that is sure to go viral on social media. The Biden campaign, I should note, is obviously trying to do their best to offer their best spin. You know, they have pointed out moments from the debate that they say, you know, landed better for President Biden on January 6th, on the abortion issue. They're also saying that for President Trump, when he was being more vicious and being more personally insulting, that that wasn't a good look for him. One source familiar with the campaign's thinking said, yeah, the president had a slower start, but he did warm up both on substance and on style. But I have to tell you, Anderson, so far, I haven't heard a convincing argument or spin on the president's overall performance, either from the White House or the campaign. COOPER: MJ, thank you. CNN's Kristen Holmes has some new reporting from the Trump camp. What are you hearing tonight? KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, Anderson, I mean, you just heard a lot of what MJ had to say. And because of that, it's no surprise that Donald Trump's team is currently celebrating the outcome of the debate. They believe that Donald Trump won handily. And there's really two reasons for that. One, as Kaitlin noted earlier, they were nervous going to the debate. They had done a lot of preparation. They had really encouraged Donald Trump to stay on message. But there's always that chance that Donald Trump is going to go rogue. They don't believe he did. They believe that the former president did exactly what they wanted him to do and what he set out to do, which was to just stay focused on message, to not go overtly with the attacks on Joe Biden and his family, to not be too aggressive, and to look hinged, to look like somebody who could be the next president of the United States. They believe that he accomplished that. Now, the other part of this, of course, is what we just heard from MJ. We are hearing Democrats both privately and publicly talk about Biden's debate performances. They have been, Trump's senior advisers, closely monitoring social media, looking at the clips of people saying that Joe Biden looks feeble and weak, talking about the fact that Joe Biden had a number of pauses. They believe that obviously adds to their case that they won the big debate earlier tonight. And in fact, there had been some rumor and speculation that Donald Trump might show up here in the spin room. I spoke to one senior adviser who said, why would he do that when he just had such a remarkable performance? He doesn't need to go out there and do any spinning. They want him to just get in his car and go home and take the win. That's where they are standing right now. And again, they were nervous going into this. They had done extensive preparation, despite the fact that they said that Donald Trump didn't need to prepare. They'd even been watching old video clips. They are very happy tonight on their way to Virginia, where he'll hold a rally tomorrow. COOPER: Kristen Holmes, thanks very much. Back here with the team outside the debate hall. John King, I mean, what happens now? JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: A couple of things happen. Number one, we wait. I would say we should wait. We won't, but we should wait a week and see how this settles out in the polling, particularly in the battleground state polling and particularly among the most important subgroups. What happens right now is, I would just say that if the Trump people are running around saying they won the debate, we'll see if that holds up. Biden lost the debate. I don't know if Trump won the debate. The early indications we're getting, again, from pollsters and party strategists who were talking to people in focus groups and doing dial groups, is that Trump actually fared pretty poorly on the issues, and his tone was negative. So, I don't think we -- we don't have any evidence before us right now in the hour after it ended that Trump gained a lot of new voters. Put it that way, right? Did he hurt himself with the Trump base? Absolutely not. [23:20:00] And so, Donald Trump is going to get 40 something. He's going to get 40 something. Did he grow tonight? I'm a little skeptical of that. The main issue, though, is the president of the United States, the incumbent. Again, I don't know that the old rules apply because he's running as a former president. But this is my 10th one of these. And when the incumbent is running, the American people are being asked. Keep what you got. Do you like what you got? Stay the course. That was not a stay the course performance from a president who, when he walked on stage, knew the fundamentals of this race were already bent against him. They had 38% approval rating. Sixty plus percent of the country thinks we're on the wrong track. And as Abby noted earlier, there were already significant doubts about, can you do this for four more years? It's the toughest job in the world. And so, even in the middle of the debate saying he had a cold, I have a cold, I get it, I get it, that sucks, but, you know, he's the president of the United States. When the phone rings at 3:00 in the morning, the world doesn't matter if you have a cold or not. ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR: And the president did intensive preparation for this debate. I mean, that's the other part of this. COOPER: And they signal that repeatedly. PHILLIP: Repeatedly. I mean, he was in Camp David. All of his top advisors were there. They were preparing him as well as they possibly could for this moment. VAN JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I just -- PHILLIP: He came in here saying -- sorry, Van, just a moment. He had to solidify. It's not just his base. It's who voted for him the last time around, right? Now, who voted for him last time around was enough for him to beat Donald Trump. Donald Trump can stay just where he was the last time around. And if Joe Biden erodes so significantly that it's less than what Donald Trump got, Donald Trump wins. Okay? That's how the math works here. So, he has to bring back all of those people, whether they're Democrats or not, who cast a ballot for him. Was he able to do that tonight? I don't think there's anybody who thinks that he was. JONES: Well, I tell you, I am starting to get the pushback now from people who are not in agreement with us. I just want to get -- (LAUGHTER) I just want to -- listen -- URBAN: Didn't watch the debate. JONES: No, no, actually did. A major Black leader just called me and kicked my butt. And so, I just want to give the other side, which is -- which is that Republicans would never throw their guy overboard. Even if they had a guy that had felony convictions, if they had a guy that led an insurrection, if they had a guy who was a serial liar, they would never throw their guy overboard. And there are people who are angry tonight that the Democratic Party leaders are already abandoning Joe Biden. They're saying that we already know that he's older and slower, but what he stands for matters. What he was -- if you -- as I said, if you wrote out what he said, if you listened to it, the substance of what he said is true, the Democratic Party, and there's a pushback beginning to say, if Democratic Party is too scared to stand up for Joe Biden, other people will. (CROSSTALK) DAVID AXELROD, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Can I just respond? JONES: Yes, sir. AXELROD: Listen. I believe this. I think when we see sort of voter surveys and so on, of people who watch the debate and so on, they're going to be a lot different than -- than -- than you might think because I don't think Donald Trump had a great night. And I think on -- on -- on substance, Biden did fine. But that wasn't the big question about Biden. But here's the thing. People can love Joe Biden. Lots of Democrats do. I worked with him. I have deep respect for him. JONES: Yes, sir. AXELROD: But as you said earlier, the stakes are enormous. You said democracy is on the line. JONES: It is. AXELROD: And so, it becomes less an issue about loyalty to one person than to the idea of how much are you willing to fight. (CROSSTALK) JONES: I want to give a voice to other folks. (CROSSTALK) KING: Let me jump in quickly on this point that Van just made, because one of the reasons I started this voter project is Washington is often wrong about these things. So, I'm always skeptical when all the elites in Washington or the people who live comfortable lives in Washington. This is -- this conversation is not just Washington. I want to make that clear. This is Democrats across the country who are watching, Democrats who live in competitive areas, Democrats who love Joe Biden. It'll be interesting to see how it shakes out. But the other question I would just raise is, there's -- there has to be a conversation with the president after tonight. Right? Some of those conversations will be from people who say, sir, you should step aside. But if you -- if you want to take Van's position out there, the main organizing impetus in the Democratic Party is keep Donald Trump in retirement, keep him out of the White House. So, if you won't step aside, what are the conversations about what to do about tonight? Those will have to happen. So, my question for the people who know best and the one who knows the best is sitting right over there, is, who can have that conversation with the president? SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Who's the only person in the party? KING: I mean, Bill Clinton or Barack Obama might call him, but I don't know if that would matter. Is it Jill Biden, Ted Kaufman? Who is it? KATE BEDINGFIELD, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, yes, Jill -- Jill Biden is the single most important person in terms of sharing criticism, in terms of being direct -- KING: But will she? BEDINGFIELD: -- opinions. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Yes. And I imagine that there will be -- there will be serious conversations within the president's inner circle, people like Mike Donilon, people like Steve Ruscetti (ph), people like Anita Dunn, who will have very direct conversations with the president. He is not somebody who shies away. [23:25:00] He is absolutely -- I think, as was said earlier, he's absolutely somebody who is stubborn and resilient, but he's actually not somebody who shies away from having tough conversations and having direct feedback. So, yes, absolutely, I have to imagine there will be direct discussions with him about how to adjust the campaign for this. But I also think to this point about waiting to see where actual voters land on this is critically important before -- before -- you know, before the elites sitting at this table determine that the rest of the country hated the performance. I think we've got to see what voters have to say. COOPER: All right. We're going to take a short break. When we come back, Vice President Kamala Harris will be joining us. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) COOPER: The first debate of the 2024 presidential campaign is now history. The fallout from it is just getting started. Joining us now is Vice President Kamala Harris. Madam Vice President, thanks for being with us. CNN's John King has described a panic inside the Democratic Party right now because of President Biden's performance in tonight's debate. He has been hearing from Democratic lawmakers and others around the country. [23:30:00] Some within your own party are wondering if President Biden should even step aside. What do you say to that? KAMALA HARRIS, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Listen, first of all, what we saw tonight is the president making a very clear contrast with Donald Trump on all of the issues that matter to the American people. Yes, there was a slow start, but it was a strong finish. And what became very clear through the course of the night is that Joe Biden is fighting on behalf of the American people on substance, on policy, on performance. Joe Biden is extraordinarily strong. And that cannot be debated. COOPER: On substance and policy and performance tonight, I mean, the president's performance tonight clearly was disappointing for his supporters. CNN is reporting Democratic lawmakers watching the debate were worried about the president's performance. One said it was a disaster. Another called it a train wreck. Those are Democrats especially worried that Biden did not punch back on Trump's lies. HARRIS: Listen, people can debate on style points, but ultimately, this election and who is the president of the United States has to be about substance. And the contrast is clear. Look at what happened during the course of the debate. Donald Trump lied over and over and over again as he is wants to do. He would not disavow what happened on January 6th. He would not give a clear answer on whether he would stand by the election results this November. He went back and forth about where he stands on one of the most critical issues of freedom in America, which is the right of a woman to make decisions about their own body. He has been completely ambiguous and all over the place about where he stands on that issue, despite the fact that he hand-selected three members of the United States Supreme Court with the intention that they would undo the protections of Roe v. Wade. And that's exactly what they did. And just three years ago, we commemorated the two-year anniversary of Dobbs, wherein women across our country have been denied emergency health care -- COOPER: All that may be true. HARRIS: -- had suffered miscarriages to the point that -- COOPER: All that may be true. But the president of the United States was not able to -- to put -- make that case to Donald Trump on the stage tonight. I mean, you debated against then Vice President Trump -- excuse me, Vice President Biden four years ago, and he was a very different person on the stage four years ago when -- when you debated him. You must -- I mean, that -- that's certainly true, is it not? HARRIS: Anderson, the point has to be performance in terms of what a president does. A president who incites an insurrection against the Capitol -- COOPER: But that is what is scary for people watching this. HARRIS: But I got the point that you're making about a one-and-a-half- hour debate tonight. I'm talking about three and a half years of performance in work that has been historic, whether that be infrastructure. The former guy, the other guy -- the other guy on the debate stage -- COOPER: But is that the man -- the man who we saw on the stage tonight, is that the person you see -- HARRIS: The person that you saw on the debate stage that has for the last three and a half years, up until today, performed in a way that has been about, whether it be in the Oval Office, negotiating bipartisan deals so that we have an infrastructure, a real infrastructure plan where we're putting trillions of dollars on the streets of America to upgrade our infrastructure, whether it be the person I see in the Oval Office who is meeting with heads of the military and the Intelligence Community and in the Situation Room, ensuring the safety of America, the person I see in Joe Biden on the world stage convening world leaders who often ask for his advice, most recently just during the G7 conference. So, I'm not going to spend all night with you talking about the last 90 minutes when I've been watching the last three and a half years of performance. COOPER: But this was a debate that your campaign wanted. You pushed for this debate at this moment. Obviously -- I mean, you can't honestly say -- I mean, can you say that you are not concerned at all having watched the president's performance tonight? HARRIS: It was a slow start. That's obvious to everyone. I'm not going to debate that point. I'm talking about the choice in November. I'm talking about one of the most important elections in our collective lifetime. And do we want to look at what November will bring and go on a course for America that is about a destruction of democracy, electing a man who has said he'll be a dictator on day one, or do we want to continue on a course that's about strengthening America's economy, building and creating 15 million American jobs, over 800,000 manufacturing jobs? I got that this is the after-play for the debate, this conversation that I'm in, and I understand why everyone wants to talk about it. [23:35:00] But I think it's also important to recognize that the choice in November between these two people that were on the debate stage involves extraordinary stakes. And there's one person on that stage who has the endorsement of their vice president. And that's Joe Biden. COOPER: Neither person on that stage -- Mike Pence is nowhere to be found in supporting Donald Trump, and that's why he has to look for -- that's why he has to look for someone else to run with him, who, as we know, will embolden and rubber stamp whatever he wants because they're going to have to make a choice to not be Mike Pence and to put Donald Trump over their country. COOPER: Neither person on that stage tonight made the argument as coherently as you just did. You mentioned reproductive rights. I'd like to just play that exchange that we saw tonight. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TRUMP: Under Roe v. Wade, you have late-term abortion. You can do whatever you want, depending on the state. You can do whatever you want. We don't think that's a good thing. We think it's a radical thing. We think the Democrats are the radicals, not the Republicans. BIDEN: For 51 years, that was the law. Fifty-one years, constitutional scholarship said it was the right way to go. Fifty-one years, it was taken away because this guy put very conservative members on the Supreme Court. He takes credit for taking it away. What's he going to do? What's he going to do? In fact, if the MAGA Republicans -- he gets elected and the MAGA Republicans control the Congress, and they pass a universal ban on abortion, period, across the board, at six weeks or seven or eight or 10 weeks, something very, very conservative, is he going to sign that bill? I'll veto it. He'll sign it. (END VIDEO CLIP) COOPER: To someone who watched this debate tonight and has serious concerns about the president of the United States, what do you say to them about what they just saw? HARRIS: They saw the fact, they witnessed the fact that if Donald Trump were elected to be president of the United States this November, he will sign a national abortion ban. Take him at his word. He said he would when he was president before. He said if it came to his desk, he'd sign it. There's no reason to believe anything would change. A national abortion ban means that folks in New York, California, Maryland, all these other states that have protected the right of a woman to make decision about her own body and not have the government tell her what to do, will be at risk. That's what you should take away from that discussion. COOPER: And just -- HARRIS: Joe Biden was very clear. COOPER: I know we have to go -- HARRIS: He will sign back into law the protections of Roe v. Wade. COOPER: The person we saw tonight -- HARRIS: It's a big issue, substantive issue. COOPER: -- the president we saw tonight on that stage, is that how he is every day? HARRIS: The Joe Biden that I work with every day is someone who, as I have said, has performed in a way that has been about bringing people into the Oval Office, Republicans and Democrats, to compromise in a way that is extraordinary these days because it just doesn't happen, but Joe Biden can make it happen. The Joe Biden I see is someone who goes to our allies around the world and strengthens NATO to the point that there are two new members of NATO who, just about four years ago, people said, is NATO even have a reason for existing? The Joe Biden I know is someone who has delivered 800,000 new manufacturing jobs and bringing manufacturing back to the United States, not shipping jobs out like Donald Trump did. So, that's the Joe Biden I know. COOPER: Vice President Kamala Harris, I appreciate your time tonight. Thank you. HARRIS: Thank you. Good to be with you. COOPER: Back with the panel. Joining us as well is Biden biographer, Evan Osnos. Evan Osnos, you have watched President Biden a lot. What did you make of tonight's performance? EVAN OSNOS, PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN'S BIOGRAPHER: You know, I don't think there's any other way to put it. This was clearly a person who was diminished from where he was on the debate stage four years ago. I think for a lot of Americans who don't follow politics closely, they saw that and they were shocked. You know, I will tell you, Anderson, what I -- what I see now and over the course of the next few hours and days is it's going to come down partly to how Joe Biden makes sense of this, because his self- mythology has always been, okay, I'm the guy that gets knocked down and I get back up. That is -- in some ways, it could be a real impediment to him if he's not going to be able to listen clearly to what people around him are going to say. There has to be some very hard conversations. And if he is in some ways occluded by that story that he tells himself, that he can always prevail, that's going to interfere with his ability to be a clear strategic thinker. COOPER: And the panel here, John King. KING: I just want to make observation about your interview with the vice president. The Republicans are going to probably disagree with me. I think one of the greatest acts of political malpractice I have seen in my lifetime doing this is that they kept her under wraps for three years. Now, she's out on the road. She has great appeals. [23:40:00] Does she have weaknesses? Yes. Do Republicans view her as a liability? Yes. Are her polling numbers great? No. But she has appeal with the pieces of the Biden coalition where he is hurting the most. And when you go into inner city of Milwaukee, what do Black Americans say? Where's the vice president? Where has she been? They want the president, too, but she's right there. Is she a feisty communicator? Good on television. And they kept her under wrap for three years. Now, she's out there busy on the campaign trail. I know in places, I know in Republican places, you know, you'd beat her up, but in a close competitive race, when you need all hands on deck, that is an asset that should have been working for them from day one. And Joe Biden was vice president for eight years. If there's anyone who should have understood how hard it is to be vice president, how hard it is to establish an identity as vice president, it's him. And again, she has churned her staff. She has issues. There's no question about it. But she also has potential star power. And on issues like reproductive rights and in the Black Street community, she is a great asset to this team, and they have kept her under wraps. URBAN: I would say two things, John. She was in charge of the border. That was her job at the beginning of the presidency. I think she was largely absent from that. So, you could say -- say what you want. I just want to give a quick plug for our colleagues who I think -- not our colleagues, but Anderson, your colleague, Dana and Jake. COOPER: Oh, yeah. URBAN: They did an incredible job tonight. The debate went flawlessly. It was -- everybody in the world was watching to see if it was going to be a fair debate, if they were going to be favoring one side or the other. They played it right down the middle. COOPER: Sure did. URBAN: And America is the better for it. So, I just want to say a great, great job. JENNINGS: I'll second that on Jake and Dan. A lot of Republicans were coming after our colleagues this week and they totally made history tonight. America needed this conversation. They did it. Let me -- let me just take the other side of this Kamala Harris debate. It is a fair question to ask right now, what is going on inside the White House every day? Is she currently making more decisions in the White House than we know? Who is making decisions in the White House right now? We're talking about this in terms of can Joe Biden win an election and serve for four years? I want to know -- I want to know what's happening on a day to day basis. To me, she is the big story tonight because her position in this administration, in this campaign, has become magnified by a thousand right now. COOPER: All right -- UNKNOWN: She is always -- COOPER: Sorry, we got to take a break. Given all the talk tonight about the truth and lies in the debate stage, we're joined by the fact-checker, Daniel Dale. Also, ahead, Republican Senator Marco Rubio. A lot ahead. Stay with us. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) [23:46:30] COLLINS: The candidates' performance and demeanor tonight notwithstanding. There is the crucial question of the truth, of what was actually said on stage. And our fact-checker Daniel Dale joins us now. So, Daniel, what stands out to you? DANIEL DALE, CNN SENIOR REPORTER: What stood out was the staggering number of false claims from former President Trump. On first count, Erin, I counted at least 30, 30 false claims. Now, President Biden also made false claims, at least nine false or misleading statements on first count. I'll give you some of them. He said he's the only president in a while who didn't have any troops dying anywhere in the world. Troops have, of course, died on his watch. He said he has put in a $15 per shot cap on insulin in Medicare. It is a $35 a month cap. He said it's a $200 cap on overall drug spending in Medicare. It's $2,000 a year. He said the border now has fewer crossings than when Trump was in office. That's generally not true. He said or at least strongly suggested unemployment was at 15% when he took office. It was actually 6.4. He said Trump wants to get rid of Social Security. Trump doesn't. He said billionaires pay 8.2% in taxes. It's much higher. He said Trump told Americans to inject bleach amid COVID. We know Trump made foolish comments about scientists studying disinfectant injection, but didn't frame it as advice to people. And Biden said the Border Patrol endorsed him. No, unions that supported the border bill he'd supported never endorsed him (ph). In fairness, the president did appear to clarify that one. Now, the Trump list. It is way, way longer. So, deep breath. He said some democratic states allow people to execute babies after birth, an egregious lie that is illegal in every state. He said everybody, even Democrats, wanted Roe v. Wade overturned. Roe was supported by two- thirds of Americans, even more Democrats. He said every legal scholar wanted Roe overturned, abortion returned to the states. Legal scholars have told me directly this is not true. He said U.S. currently has the biggest budget deficit ever. No, that happened under Trump in 2020. He said the U.S. currently has a record trade deficit with China. That also happened under Trump in 2018. He said Biden personally gets a lot of money from China. Zero evidence of this. He said there were no terror attacks during his presidency. In fact, there were multiple attacks. He said Iran didn't fund Hamas, Hezbollah, other terror groups under his presidency. Iran, in fact, did. He said Biden wants to quadruple people's taxes. That is pure fiction. He said the U.S. has provided way more aid to Ukraine than Europe had. It's actually the opposite. He said the U.S. has provided about $200 billion in Ukraine aid. It's closer to $110 billion. He said 18 or 19 million people have crossed the border under Biden. That is millions too high. He said many of these migrants are from prisons or mental institutions. His own campaign cannot corroborate this. He said Biden has only created jobs for illegal immigrants. Total nonsense. He said Nancy Pelosi turned down his offer of 10,000 National Guard troops on January 6. There's no evidence she even got such an offer. It was the president, not Pelosi, who had the power to deploy the D.C. Guard. He said Pelosi now acknowledges she turned down the troops. No, her office tells me this claim is still a lie. He said he deployed the National Guard to Minneapolis in 2020. Actually, that was the Democratic governor. He spoke of -- quote -- "ridiculous fraud" in the 2020 election. Zero evidence of any widespread fraud. He said NATO was going out of business before he took office. Completely, clearly absurd. He said the U.S. was paying 100% of NATO before he came along. The U.S. made up about 71% of NATO defense spending, not 100. He said he, not Biden, is the one who lowered insulin prices in Medicare. He did it for some seniors, but Biden did it for far more. He said Biden indicted him. Again, no evidence Biden has had a personal role in any of these four prosecutions. He said Europe takes no U.S. cars. Just not true. He spoke of food prices quadrupling under Biden. That's a wild exaggeration, though they are up. [23:50:00] He said Biden made up the idea he called dead service members suckers and losers. No, "The Atlantic" magazine reported that, and then former Trump chief of staff John Kelly corroborated it. He said Biden called Black people, -- quote -- "super predators for 10 years." Biden never once deployed that phrase, let alone for 10 years, though he did at least once speak of -- quote -- "predators" without specifying it was about Black people. He said his Trump tax cut was the largest in U.S. history. Not true, though, in fairness, Biden also said this. Trump said China and others stopped buying from Iran under him. China never stopped. He revived his pet lie. I don't know how many times he had done it, that he signed the Veterans Choice Program into law. Barack Obama did that in 2014. Trump signed an expanded version in 2018. And finally, Trump said Biden got rid of that Veterans program. Biden has not done that. BURNETT: All right. Well, Daniel Dale, thank you very much, going through every single one of those, clearly long list. And I'm joined now in the spin room by someone on the shortlist of candidates who could be selected as Donald Trump's running mate, the Florida Senator Marco Rubio. And Senator, I appreciate your time. SEN. MARCO RUBIO (R-FL): Thank you. BURNETT: All right, well, you know, I want to talk about the appearance of everything, as we've been talking about, but what Daniel Dale just -- just finished when he went through every single one of those points, does that give you pause? RUBIO: Well, first of all, some of those things, the last one he talked about was the V.A. Choice. The V.A. Choice Program has actually not been fully implemented. It has been undermined in its implementation. So, I think what Donald Trump is saying is that basically, this was in place. It was expanded. The Biden administration has actually slowed it down and impeded its implementation. I don't remember all 30 of them. He went through and, obviously, we don't have to go through the Biden ones either Suffice it to say that I think tonight, we all are in politics, I'm in office, you guys cover it, but there are millions of people watching who basically want to ask themselves, were we better off under Trump or were we better off under Biden? Did I have more money in my pocket? Was the world safer and more secure? Was the country safer, more secure? And I just think more and more Americans are concluding that they were better off in the four years Trump was president than in the four year, three and a half years that Biden has been president. I think that's the core issue of this campaign that's going to decide it. BURNETT: Even with COVID? I mean -- RUBIO: Well, I mean -- BURNETT: -- it was bad. RUBIO: Yeah, COVID was bad, but Trump didn't create COVID. COVID impacted the entire planet. BURNETT: That was how people felt. That was what they lived through. RUBIO: Sure, but I mean, how was -- what does Trump have to do with COVID? On the contrary, they got -- they -- I vividly recall when he implemented the travel ban from China, I want to say January, maybe February of that year, it was Nancy Pelosi and people like that. They were criticizing. I think Biden called them a xenophobe for the China ban. And we wish we would have done it earlier in hindsight. So, I mean, he invested a massive amount of money, which we had to do an Operation Warp Speed that came up with not one, but three vaccines. So, if you think about our efforts and the patient protection program, which is bipartisan, the administration was a key part of -- BURNETT: Yeah. RUBIO: -- saved main street America when everything was being shut down, including states that were shut down for a year. So, even those things, he doesn't get enough credit for. But, obviously, COVID was an anomaly in human history, something that happens once every hundred years and never -- hopefully never happens again. But overall, people have recollections of those years in which they had more money in their pocket. That's a fact. BURNETT: So -- so I want to ask you about some things as you sit here, as his surrogate, that he said tonight that are important to you. And I want to start with NATO. Um, the issue of NATO came up and what he thinks about NATO. I want to play that for you, senator. RUBIO: Okay. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) BIDEN: This is a guy who wants to get out of NATO. Are you going to stay in NATO? (END VIDEO CLIP) BURNETT: Are you okay with that? He shrugged. RUBIO: Well, I think this is the negotiator in him. I was in the Senate when he was the president. And he would talk to these guys, not like a politician would normally, but he basically is trying to negotiate so that our partners do more. Interestingly enough, the Eastern European countries all punch above their weight in terms of how much they contribute. Poland is an example. The Western European countries have been slower to come to the table and do more. Now, Germany has going after the Ukraine and others have gotten going a little bit more. But the truth of the matter is that NATO has been an unbalanced alliance for a substantial period of time. And we tolerated it during the Cold War. But now, I think we have to -- it has to be reexamined. So, it's not so much about getting out of NATO, but you have to use some sort of leverage and negotiating tactic to force countries -- BURNETT: So, that's what you see -- RUBIO: -- that have these massive social safety nets to spend a little bit more money on their own defense. BURNETT: So, you see it as negotiating. I mean, I know you led legislation that would have required an act of Congress before a president of the United States could withdraw the country from NATO. RUBIO: Sure. BURNETT: Did you do that because you were worried about Trump? RUBIO: No, I think that Congress has an important role to play in an alliance, which is basically a treaty. But by the same token, I would tell you, and I think -- by the way, Biden -- I mean, Trump is not the first president in American history. Virtually, every president in American history has complained about the Europeans not spending more. And why would they? They have these massive social safety net programs. They don't want to take money out of that and put more into their defense. Some of these countries are highly capable of doing more. You look at the attrition of French military capability and other military capabilities from multiple European countries. BURNETT: Well, they're offering to put troops on the ground if necessary. RUBIO: Well, but you need to invest for 10 or 15 years. They can't even get their troops there. We would have to transport them like we had to do when we sent them to North Africa or help them by getting their troops to North Africa. These are legitimate points. [23:55:00] If we want to have a strong NATO, every country has to do their part. And that's what he's saying. And I think he should have as much leverage as possible to get that done. BURNETT: So, you're sitting here. You're a surrogate for the former president. This is the most important event of this campaign so far. There's supposed to be another debate. We don't know if there will be. This might be it. Are you the VP? RUBIO: Oh, I don't know the answer to that. No one has told me I am. I haven't -- have any reason to think they've even been thinking about it this week. But we'll know who it is at some point in the next two weeks. And the good news for Republicans, and I'm sure you've had others on the air tell you the same thing, but it's the truth. We have eight or nine people that I think could do a great job. It really comes down to who the president thinks would do a good job. And either way, whether I'm in the Senate or I get a chance to serve in the executive branch, I want to be a part of these issues that we're facing at this moment in our nation's history because they're that important. But that's his decision to make. BURNETT: So, can I ask you? Because there's one thing I want to get. You and the president, former president, both live in Florida. RUBIO: Yeah. BURNETT: Now, according to the Constitution, state electors have to vote for a president and a vice president, one of whom shall not be an inhabitant of the same state with themselves. RUBIO: Oh, is that still in there? BURNETT: That's still in there. (LAUGHTER) So, you can't get the 30 electoral college votes in Florida if you've got two people from Florida on the ticket. So, would you move? Would you establish a presidency somewhere else? RUBIO: Listen, that would be presumptuous of me to talk about that. The job has not been offered to me. I am not the vice-presidential choice. No one is right now. We'll cross bridges when we get to them. Tonight is about the debate. I'm not trying to evade you. I honestly don't know who he's going to pick. BURNETT: Yeah. RUBIO: And, you know, those are things that you have to make decision on. We'll figure out, whoever it is that they pick, what it is they need to do to make their candidacy possible. But, ultimately, I think, and I'm not trying to get back to the debate, I do think it's an important night. Maybe this is the last debate. I don't know. I hope it's not. But if it is, I think there's an element here that -- look, I don't take glee in it in saying this but, clearly, the president struggled tonight. And I do worry about the impact that that has in Beijing, in Tehran, in places where -- in Moscow where adversaries see that and perhaps feel emboldened to be more adventurous in their attitudes towards the United States because they feel our president is somehow struggling. You know, that's not a good thing for our country. And I think that was painfully obvious tonight. I haven't watched what people are saying on the shows, but we saw that tonight. I do think that's a factor here. I really do. BURNETT: All right. Well, Senator Rubio, I appreciate your time. And thank you very much. And coming up, the results of our flash poll of voters' opinions of tonight's debate. Our David Chalian is going to join us with all of the numbers, the details, the analysis after this. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)