The Lead with Jake Tapper Aired July 01, 2024 - 17:00 ET THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED. [17:00:00] JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Welcome to "The Lead," I'm Jake Tapper. This hour, the immunity decision from the U.S. Supreme Court ahead of what now happens in the federal case that led to this question before the court in the first place, the election interference case brought on by special counsel Jack Smith. Leading this hour, however, President Biden making his way back to Washington, D.C. as soon as Democrats debate the biggest question their parties faced in decades, whether or not Biden still should be at the top of the ticket, whether or not he can continue to lead the nation. A question illuminated at least last week's CNN presidential debate. For years, Biden has pushed back on that question, consistently answering in two words. He would say, quote, "watch me." Here he is in September 2022. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SCOTT PELLEY, HOST, CBS 60 MINUTES: We'll ask whether you are fit for the job. And when you hear that, I wonder what you think. JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Watch me. I mean, honest to God, that's all I think. Watch me. If you think I don't have the energy level of mental acuity, then, you know, that's one thing. That's another thing. You're just watching and, you know, keep my schedule. (END VIDEO CLIP) TAPPER: Just one month after that, I asked the president to respond to American voters who, frankly, had been watching. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TAPPER: Whenever anyone raises concerns about your age, the oldest president in the history of the United States, you always say, watch me. Voters have been watching you. Democratic voters approve of the job you're doing. Democratic voters overwhelmingly like you. But one poll shows that almost two-thirds of Democratic voters want a new nominee in 2024. And the top reason they gave was your age. So what's your message to Democrats who like you, who like what you've done, but are concerned about your age and the demands of the job? BIDEN: Well, they're concerned about whether or not I get anything done. Look what I've gotten done. Name me a president in recent history who's gotten as much done as I have in the first two years. Not a joke. You may not like what I got done, but the vast majority of American people do like what I got done. And so I just -- it's a matter of can you do the job? And I believe I can do the job. I've been able to do the job. I've gotten more done. I got the inflation reduction. I got all these pieces of legislation passed. And I ran on that. I said this is what I was going to do. I'm still getting it done. (END VIDEO CLIP) TAPPER: In February of this year, CNN's MJ Lee asked President Biden to directly respond to continued criticisms about his age and aging. This is how he responds then. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) MJ LEE, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Mr. President, for months when you were asked about your age, you would respond with the words watch me. Many American people have been watching and they have expressed concerns about your age. BIDEN: That is your judgment. That is your judgment. That is not the judgment of the press. (END VIDEO CLIP) TAPPER: I think he meant that it's not the judgment of the public. MJ is with us now. So that was then. This is now. Take us inside this weekend's conversations in that big building behind you. LEE: Yeah. Well, Jake, as you just reminded us, the president has long been dismissive of polling showing that many voters have a lot of serious questions about his age and his mental acuity. But as he went on to tell me in that February press conference, his main argument has really been I need to be the Democratic nominee because I am the most qualified. I think after Thursday night's debate, it has become infinitely more difficult for the president and his advisers to sort of outright reject those concerns about his mental acuity and his age. And I think it's also fair to describe the last three and a half days or so as the campaign having been in full crisis mode. We know that they have been on the phone nonstop, fielding questions, messages and worried concerns about exactly what happened on Thursday night and also just asking the question of what is Plan B. And for right now, the campaign is basically saying there is no Plan B. The president is going to remain on the ticket. We know that he spent the weekend at Camp David with members of his family, and the family has very much been encouraging him to stay in the race and to continue fighting The campaign is saying it is not even a remote possibility that the president is going to drop out of the race. But it is clear that the family is frustrated with how some members of his team handled the debate. We know that there were private discussions about whether some senior advisers should be fired, though I think a lot of people would argue that maybe it isn't the advisers that should be blamed. It was simply the president's bad performance. I think even more, though, than the inner circle that is around the president that is famous for being insular, it is going to be the president's family that is going to be all the more influential on any decisions that do come about his political future. TAPPER: So MJ, very, very few elected Democratic officials are willing to talk about their concerns with President Biden on the record. [17:05:00] Are White House officials expecting that they're going to be able to keep them from doing -- from being candid about this from now until November? LEE: Well, you know, plenty of Democrats have gone on the record to express concerns about the debate itself. But you're right, that we've not heard a lot of elected officials saying that they have concerns about whether or not the president should stay in the race. That's not where we are right now. But I think the caveat is that that is now. And we don't know what's coming in the next several days, particularly as both the campaign and just Democrats overall are waiting on data. They're waiting on research and polling to come in to actually get a full picture of the post debate damage from the president and his lawmakers. Some of them have told us they think that the down ballot impact will be more determinative than perhaps anything else, that if data shows that he is going to risk the House remaining in Democrats hands, then that could lead to the dam breaking and some lawmakers starting to say publicly that they do need a plan B. TAPPER: All right. CNN's MJ Lee at the White House. Thank you so much. Appreciate it. Today, President Biden's campaign chair, Jen O'Malley Dillon, was working the phones with party heads and campaign staff. One of those Democratic leaders telling CNN the message was this will pass, but we have to do our work. Joining us now from Biden campaign headquarters in Wilmington, Delaware, Senator Chris Coons. He is a Biden campaign co-chair. Senator Coons, thanks so much for coming on. I want to start by just playing some of the moments -- SEN. CHRIS COONS (D-DE): Always good to be on with you, Jake. Thanks for the chance to talk today. TAPPER: Yeah, no, I appreciate it. I want to start by playing some moments from the debate. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) BIDEN: We're going to have the ability of Medicare to -- for the ability to -- for the -- with the -- with the COVID, excuse me, with dealing with everything we have to do with -- look, if the total initiative relative to what we're going to do with more Border Patrol and more asylum officers. TAPPER: President Trump? DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I really don't know what he said at the end of that sentence. I don't think he knows what he said either. (END VIDEO CLIP) TAPPER: How do you explain the performance of the debate and moments like that? COONS: Well, Jake, you just took what was probably the most difficult moment to watch of the entire 90-minute debate, but you didn't share what I found the hardest moments to watch, which was when Donald Trump was unleashing a torrent of lies, of invective, of vengeance. And we have to look at these two moments in contrast. The "Philadelphia Inquirer," the most important newspaper in the swing state where I spent the weekend campaigning, watched that debate and concluded that the political party whose leadership should be going to their candidate and saying, in the interest of our nation and in the interest of our party, you should be stepping aside, sir, is the Republican Party because Donald Trump gave no reasons for folks to vote for him and a lot of reasons for folks to vote against him. The next day, Joe Biden, our president, gave a forceful and clear and engaging speech on a campaign stage at a rally in North Carolina. And he's had strong days ever since. Everybody has a bad night. And I think that was a weak debate performance. I don't think anyone in the campaign is disagreeing with that point. But I've been urging, and I expect that this will be moving forward, for the president to reassure folks in the media, the general public, the many editorialists, and others who've expressed concern by doing unscripted, casual engagements with journalists, with small groups of voters, a town hall, so that you can see what I've seen with our president in the last few months and, of course, the last few years. He is engaging. He is capable. He has an incredible record as president. I don't think you would dispute that, Jake. But the core question is whether what you saw in those few moments of the debate and over much of the arc of that 90-minute debate was someone having a difficult night or someone who is no longer up to the job. As he said on the stage in North Carolina, he wouldn't be running if he weren't confident, he's up for the job. TAPPER: So, with all due respect, it is not honest to say that this is just one night. There have been moments like this that people have seen in front of the cameras and other moments with cameras not there. Just two weeks ago, let me just show this clip, there was another moment like this. Not just a senior losing a train of thought, but something else going on. Here he is. It was at an event about immigration. He tries to interview -- introduce DHS Secretary Mayorkas and there's some sort of glitch. I don't know what it is. Let's roll that tape. [17:10:00] (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) BIDEN: Thanks to all the members of Congress and Homeland Security. Secretary, I'm not sure I'm going to introduce you all the way, but all kidding aside, Secretary Mayorkas. (END VIDEO CLIP) TAPPER: I don't know what that was. COONS: That doesn't trouble me at all, Jake. Frankly, you can put up a dozen clips of me, of you, of anybody who's on TV, who speaks publicly all the time, losing their train of thought, misstating who they're about to introduce, not having a fluid moment. And if we're honest with each other, Jake, every time Donald Trump speaks in front of a rally, there's long stretches where he is saying nonsense, where he's talking about whether he'd rather be electrocuted or eaten by a shark, where he's saying nonsensical things about forests bursting into flame or windmills causing cancer. So, to take that little clip and say, aha, Senator Coons, be honest, you know that our president is somehow mentally unfirm, and yet to not put-up dozens and dozens of much more alarming examples of the former president. Let me cut to the chase with what I think is a simple but important moment of testimony here, Jake. Only former President Trump has a vice president, secretary of defense, chief of staff, national security advisor who say he is not morally fit to be president and refuse to support him. The whole cabinet of our current president, the entire Senate in the Democratic caucus, every governor I know who already supports Joe Biden still supports Joe Biden. And we interact with him and work with him regularly. So, do all of us who are in public life and speaking regularly have slips and moments where we don't finish our sentence properly or misidentify exactly who we're introducing? Absolutely. But I have been saying to the campaign senior leadership, our president needs to reassure folks by doing some unscripted, engaging public events soon. Otherwise, we're going to keep having this exact exchange until the cows come home and maybe until November, which I frankly think is a disservice to our country. TAPPER: So first of all, I don't think it's accurate to suggest that the news media hasn't provided or shown the American people clips of former President Trump saying odd or potentially distressing things. I think that we've been doing that since 2015. And obviously, we have also been covering the many people who worked in the Trump administration who have not endorsed Donald Trump. If you want to talk about a candidate-to-candidate matchup, I understand that's not really what I'm talking about. And I don't think it's fair to compare you or me losing our train of thought with whatever we saw on the debate stage on Thursday and that little clip from two weeks ago. But let me move on to one other question, because there is this question of what if? What if the Democratic Party decides to do something that that you obviously don't think is wise? The Biden campaign wrote in an e-mail this weekend that if President Biden were to drop out of the race, quote, "we'd switch to candidates who would, according to polls, be less likely to win than Joe Biden, the only person ever to defeat Donald Trump," unquote. Then the e-mail goes on to show polling from, to be honest, partisan pollsters that shows Vice President Harris, Governor Gavin Newsom, Pete Buttigieg, and how they match up. To be frank, they're only one percentage point behind Joe Biden in those head-to-head matchups with Donald Trump. So it does not actually look as though there would be that much of a difference between the guy who has been president for three plus years and has been spending tens, hundreds of millions of dollars running as a Democratic nominee and the people who haven't even been running. COONS: What's your question, Jake? TAPPER: How does that make -- how does that make your point? If you have Newsom, Buttigieg and Harris are only one point worse than Biden in the head-to-head matchup, how does that -- how is that -- how is that like showing some sort of strength of President Biden? COONS: Jake, I may be missing something. You're asking me to explain and defend an e-mail that I'm not -- that I didn't author or send out is your core question. Let me see if I can get a question. TAPPER: No, no, no. Let me try again. Let me try again. I'll try again. COONS: How would the other candidates -- TAPPER: No, the core question -- COONS: Be less competitive than Joe Biden. TAPPER: -- is because you reject the notion that there's actually anything going on beyond just a bad night or a bad moment here or there. Let me just ask you, do you truly think that President Biden is the strongest candidate to take on Donald Trump in November? COONS: I think Joe Biden, two things, is the strongest, most accomplished president we've had in my lifetime. TAPPER: Not the question. COONS: That he's been counted out over and over and over. And he can go to the stage and say, here's my record. I, in my speech at the inauguration, said I would bring Congress together and we would address infrastructure and manufacturing. [17:15:00] And we would reduce prescription drug prices and we would invest in restoring our competitiveness as a country and I would bring us out of the pandemic and I would address the challenges that I inherited from Donald Trump. And he's done a magnificent job. He can say that. The other candidates, governors of different states and so forth, can't say that. His vice president can say she was a central part of that. And I do think that makes for an important argument. And this is the core thing I think you're trying to raise here, Jake. He needs to reassure folks with repeat performances in public that he is up to this task and address the core question you're asking me. I have not seen evidence that our president is not up to the task of running for and continuing to serve as president. So that's something that is up to our president to prove to the public in the coming weeks. And I'm accepting that as an open question and a challenge. But I do think he has the strongest record in his first three years that any of us could imagine. Just last month, our economy created more jobs in no small part because of President Biden's leadership than it did in the whole four years that Donald Trump was president. Joe Biden has the strongest record. We have the all-time high in the stock market, all-time low in unemployment. We have crime going down. We have investments in manufacturing going up. We are headed in a strong direction. And he's got a great platform to run for re-election. He is not the only Democrat who can run for president. That's not what I'm saying. TAPPER: Yeah. COONS: But he has the strongest record to run. TAPPER: This, I mean, he has given fewer press conferences, fewer interviews than any president in modern history, including the previous one, who's now running for re-election. And you know, this could all be -- COONS: And the previous one told more lies per sentence than any candidate has ever told on a debate stage. TAPPER: This is not the discussion that we're having. We could certainly, you know, have that conversation. I certainly didn't particularly care for it when President Biden said no U.S. service members had been killed in the previous four years, but moving on from things that were said that were not true, I think it is easy to settle this right now by President Biden going to the Brady Press Center, the press file in the White House, and doing a two-hour press conference. Everybody would cover it live. Networks probably would cover it live. He'd be able to answer all these questions. It's not a crazy thing to expect a president to do. And the fact is, you know that. The campaign knows that. The White House knows that. That's how you settle this. You just put him in front of reporters and he handles himself with acuity, aplomb. We all see it was just a fluke. Oh, my God. I can't believe it happened. And we move on. The fact that you haven't done that says quite a bit to me. COONS: Jake, what I've just said maybe three times in this interview is that is what I am urging and recommending. I think that the Biden family had a long-scheduled family retreat at Camp David where they had a family photograph taken and they were discussing both this debate and the summer and their plans. And I'm encouraging them to add something like that to the schedule, whether it's a 60-minutes interview or something at the podium at the White House or a town hall. That's not up to me to decide, but that's what I've been encouraging our president to do. TAPPER: Democratic Senator Chris Coons from the small wonder state, Delaware. Thank you, sir. Appreciate it. COONS: Thank you, Jake. TAPPER: Two "Wall Street Journal" reporters who took a lot of flak last month when their headline read behind closed doors, Biden shows signs of slipping. Their article was based on interviews with more than 45 people. What they say now after last week's debate. Those reporters will join us next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) [17:22:19] TAPPER: In February, you might remember White House officials reacted quite angrily when special counsel Robert Herb made the assessment of President Biden after conducting a marathon interview with Biden over his handling or mishandling of classified documents. Herb stated Biden would seem sympathetic to a jury as a, quote, "well-meaning elderly man with a poor memory," unquote. The White House lashed out. Fast forward to June. "The Wall Street Journal" reported that President Biden was showing signs of slipping. The White House angrily pushed back on that article as well, which only included on-the-record concerns voiced by Republicans such as former Speaker Kevin McCarthy and current Speaker Johnson, but quite clearly reflected the views of dozens of sympathetic Democrats. Let's get right to the "Wall Street Journal's" Annie Linskey and Siobhan Hughes, who co-wrote that article. First of all, you're excellent reporters. That article stands up. It stood up then. It stands up now. Take us behind the scenes, Annie, of compiling the reporting, receiving the negative attention for it, and then watching what we all saw on Thursday, although I had a better seat. ANNIE LINSKEY, REPORTER, THE WALL STREET JOURNAL: You did have a good seat. Yeah. Thanks for having us on. I think Siobhan and I doing that reporting was, at least in my career, one of the most difficult stories to do. We started working on it right after the Hur report came out. And it took it took months and the two of us worked together really closely. And it was just a monster lift. And it was one of those stories, you know, we didn't take a lot of joy in telling it. The people who were brave enough to talk to us didn't take a lot of joy in talking to us either. So, it was a hard period. TAPPER: And Siobhan, not a single Democrat on Capitol Hill has gone on the record with their concerns reflected in that story, but we all have heard them expressed privately. Do you think that's going to change anytime soon? SIOBHAN HUGHES, CAPITOL HILL REPORTER, THE WALL STREET JOURNAL: I'm waiting to see if that happens. And if it does, my expectation would be the first people to start breaking would be the vulnerable Democrats, both on the Senate side and on the House side, because one of the Republican lines of attack right now is they knew and did nothing about it and they were complicit. And that is a really, really harsh charge and a heavy burden to bear. TAPPER: Yeah, I've already seen ads against Senator Bob Casey in Pennsylvania. I don't know if it's TV ads or just on the internet, but basically saying he knows. Annie, after the debate, you and your colleagues had another big blockbuster. Obviously, you've been working on it before the debate on more recent flubs, such as on the G7 trip to Europe. [17:25:00] You write, quote, "that Biden told Zelensky that money was coming to help you reconstruct the electric grid. Officials traveling with the president explained that the money was actually a series of munitions, including air defenses that could protect the electric grid, among other targets." You know, tell us more about what you went through doing that reporting. LINSKEY: Yeah, I think in doing the reporting, we were essentially looking for anybody who had met with the president in small meetings behind closed doors. The White House has often said to us, look, the Joe -- if you could only see the Joe Biden we see. I mean, this is something that your previous guest mentioned as well. If you could see the president Biden that we see behind closed doors, you would feel differently about him because we've all seen the public flubs, right? We've all seen those. And so that was part of the motivation for the story is going to people and saying, okay, tell us about it. Tell us what that's like. And, you know, the anecdotes that we came up with, I mean, some people would say, you know, in some moments he was good, in some meetings he was quite lucid and clear and had spontaneous back and forths. But then sometimes the next day it would be he'd be completely different. And you just didn't know which Joe Biden was going to show up. TAPPER: Yeah. Siobhan? HUGHES: Yeah, for me, what was most striking was how shocked some of these people were in describing to me what they witnessed the president doing. They at times were almost struggling to find the words. It was almost like, are you going to believe me when I tell you this? They were deeply unsettled. They were in some cases afraid to be public because they felt it so went against American interests. They were concerned about the appearance of the United States on the world stage. LINSKEY: And we had to go back to them sometimes repeatedly just because there were instances where we didn't quite believe it either and we wanted to go back to them. And then we kept on wanting to know, is there somebody else that will verify that? Is there somebody else? Is there somebody else? How many people can we get to? HUGHES: And the more you pulled at that yarn, the more the whole ball started to unravel and eventually the evidence was overwhelming. TAPPER: Let me just say, Annie Linskey and Siobhan Hughes, as I said, when that article came out, you were both excellent reporters. I've never met you before. I've been reading you for years. And I know truth telling is very, very difficult sometimes, but thank you for doing what you do. LINSKEY: Thank you. HUGHES: Thank you. TAPPER: My next guest says there are four factors that could impact any decision by President Biden to step aside out of the 2024 race, if he's even considering that, which he does not seem to be. We're back in a moment. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) …