The Lead with Jake Tapper Aired July 02, 2024 - 17:00 ET THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) [17:00:09] JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: And welcome to The Lead. I'm Jake Tapper. This hour just one day after the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that President Trump has immunity from prosecution for official acts that he committed while in office, the former president seems to be testing the limits. He's amplifying calls for his political opponents to be jailed. One of those elected officials listed will join us in minutes. Plus, is that largely what a potential second term under Donald Trump would look like, retribution for his perceived political enemies, the factors that could embolden Mr. Trump ahead? And leading this hour, the White House is doing its best to try to push back on questions about President Biden, his mental fitness, his advanced age, all legitimate questions in overdrive since last week's CNN presidential debate. And now it's not just pundits and Democratic sources anonymously floating lines to journalists, at least one sitting Democrat, Congressman Lloyd Doggett of Texas, is now the first to go on the record calling on President Biden to drop out of the 2024 race. Let's go to CNN's MJ Lee. She's getting new reaction at the White House. MJ, Press Secretary Karine Jean-Pierre have faced some tough questions this afternoon. Some of them from you. MJ LEE, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes. You know, this was the first White House briefing since the debate. So you can imagine the barrage of questions from reporters, CNN and other outlets pressing the White House for more information about the President's health and his medical records, including more information from his February annual physical, and also about the possibility of making Dr. O'Connor available to answer questions, the White House saying no to all of those things. Karine Jean-Pierre, the White House press secretary, continued to say that the White House does understand the concern that a lot of people are expressing about the President's health. And she insisted the White House is not hiding anything. She said the president doesn't have Alzheimer's, dementia or any kind of degenerative illness. She also said that she herself has never witnessed this kind of halting performance from the president in her interactions with the President in private. And one thing a political, Jake, that I did press the White House press secretary on is the question of why the Democratic nominee has to be the president, particularly given our CNN poll that does show Vice President Kamala Harris within striking distance of Donald Trump. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) LEE: So, how does the President explained not passing the baton to his own 59-year-old vice president given that kind of data? KARINE JEAN-PIERRE, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: That is something for them to take up. And that is something for them to answer. What I can speak to is the President's record. What I can speak to what he's been able to accomplish. And the things that he's been able to do and get done is actually in line with majority of Americans. And I think that's important to note. And again, I will say with age comes wisdom and experience. (END VIDEO CLIP) LEE: And she continued to say that what is important is the President's record. You heard her saying there with age comes wisdom. Of course the issue, Jake, is that a lot of these Democrats who are expressing grave concerns, it is not about the President's record, but his health and his age. TAPPER: We also learned this afternoon, MJ, that President Biden has agreed to a sit down interview with ABC News, George Stephanopoulos. LEE: Yes, the White House is doing multiple things to try to show the president more in these unscripted settings, including that sit down with ABC's George Stephanopoulos, which is supposed to be an extended interview, also a press conference next week at NATO and also a meeting with Democratic elected officials, including some governors this week, as well. We'll see if he is able to calm those concerns. The White House says that it wants to turn the page, full steam ahead for the campaign. The White House says it's not clear, though, if any of the steps that they are going to take in the coming days will be enough. TAPPER: Well, let me just ask a quick question. I mean, like if somebody was telling me that my career depended on the fact that people don't think I can ride a bicycle, and my poll numbers were suggesting that it was eroding trust in me because I can't ride a bicycle, I would get out there and ride a bicycle. I mean, that's what I would do. If there is concern that the President doesn't have the acuity to handle an hour or an hour and a half of questions, I don't understand the delay. Why not just have a press conference right now. I mean, it's great to have a sit down interview on tape with an anchor, but that's not really the same thing as what we're talking about. LEE: Yes. And since the debate, the President has not been in settings where he has been unscripted, where he has proven that he can be agile and nimble and take on tough questions, including last night when he delivered remarks here at the White House about the Supreme Court ruling. He could have taken questions from reporters in that setting. He didn't do that. So, yes, I think you're right that he is waiting for this opportunity to do a sit down first with ABC News. The White House is, again, pointing to other opportunities that they are saying the President will seize in the coming days. But you're totally right that for the law last couple of days as there has been so much turmoil and so much panic within the party we've really not seen that side of the president. [17:05:07] TAPPER: All right, MJ Lee, thanks so much. Joining us now Democratic congressman from Mississippi, Bennie Thompson. Congressman, thanks so much for joining us. So your colleague from Maine, Congressman Jared Golden, a Democrat who represents a district that Donald Trump wins, he just wrote an op-ed titled, "Donald Trump is going to win the election, and democracy will be just fine," unquote. He writes in the op-ed, "Pearl clutching about a Trump victory ignores the strength of our democracy. January 6 2021, was a dark day, but Americans did strong. This election is about the economy, not democracy. And when it comes to our economy, our Congress matters far more than who occupies the White House," unquote. In terms of January 6, you're something of an expert. You're the former chairman of the January 6, select House committee. What's your response to your fellow Democrat? REP. BENNIE THOMPSON (D-MS): Well, you know, every member of Congress represent his or her district. I'm sure that congressperson from Maine is representing the wishes of his district. You know, we -- most of us are either Democrats or Republicans. But at the end of the day, we have to represent our district. I respect his opinion. The greatness of this country, is that those differences can still keep us together. So, on that issue, obviously, I disagree with him, but I respect his opinion. Now, with respect to January 6, as you know, it was a dark day for this country. And I don't want to see anyone get off the hook because of presidential immunity or something like that. I evidence clearly said Donald Trump was part of the reason that January 6 occurred. Now if he tried to somehow get behind presidential immunity, and I think people are still reviewing the opinion as to whether or not he gets off scot free. I don't think he will but I think some of this will have to play out in court. TAPPER: How concerned are you about President Biden's standing right now? We have a new poll from CNN, most voters -- 75 percent, I think, of voters think Democrats have a better chance of keeping the White House if Biden is not the nominee. And we have a new poll suggesting that Vice President Kamala Harris is actually a stronger challenge within the margin of error to Donald Trump than President Biden is. What -- are you concerned about President Biden's acuity and his ability to win? THOMPSON: Well, just like all of us who have committed to making sure that Donald Trump is not put back in the White House, we want the best foot forward. I will still lead with President Biden. He's a good man, his policies have worked. And we'll see how it works out. If the new strategy, taking it to the people doing various town hall type meetings or interviews works out, then so be it. But I think at the end of the day, Democrats need to be united. If in fact, we go forward and that message is positive, then we have, in fact, done what's in the best interests of this country. But I think I wouldn't put everything on just one bad debate. I've been in elective office, a good while, some days, just not good days. That debate was not a good day. But it's not the end of a campaign. It's not the end of his reelection effort. But we have to do some things to reassure the public that it was not just a one off but it was just a bad day. TAPPER: Well, with all due respects, sir, it wasn't just about debate. I mean, we've seen other incidents, and I'm not just talking about aging, we all age, my parents are in their 80s, I get it, it happens. If we're lucky enough to make it to our 80s, it happens. It seems -- it doesn't seem like it's just ageing, don't you think? THOMPSON: Well, I don't think that way. I've known him for quite a while. As people mature, things happen. But if I look at the policies, and I look at what his administration stands for, it's what keeps America great. He's a great leader. He's respected by people around the world, and that has value. Donald Trump, on the other hand, is not that. So, when I look at the two individuals running for president leaving both tickets, I say Joe Biden is the person. He might have slowed down a little bit. But look, we all slow down. [17:10:00] I am, Jake, fully committed that if the doctors OK Joe Biden's health, and I understand that's part of the discussion, I'm prepared to go with it. I don't want the campaign to slip into this issue around, is he too old, is he's slow? Look at his policy, look at the good people around him. And look at how his administration has done so much for this economy. We are in better position, and we've been in quite a while. TAPPER: So -- THOMPSON: Again, I make no bones about the debate. TAPPER: Yes. THOMPSON: It was not a good debate. TAPPER: I want to move on to former president -- THOMPSON: It was not guarantee. TAPPER: I want to move on to former President Trump, if I can, because Trump's been amplifying these social media posts calling for a televised military tribunal for former Republican congresswoman Liz Cheney, the vice chair along with your chairmanship of the January 6 committee. And Trump also reposted a picture of you, which includes photos of 14 other former and current elected officials that says, "They should be going to jail on Monday, not Steve Bannon." Obviously, you should not be going to jail. You did not commit any crimes. And there should not be a military tribunal for Liz Cheney. She is not guilty of treason. All of this is wild and crazy. What's your -- are you worried, I guess is my question. Are you worried? THOMPSON: No. Well, look, Donald Trump is a convicted felon. He'll do anything to try to get the monkey off his back. And that's what he's doing. He's just being Donald Trump. I can't imagine a family person sitting watching T.V. and Donald Trump's on it and that person say, look, one day you can be just like him, son or daughter, president. He's not the ideal person that you'd want your son or daughter to be. Let's face it, he doesn't tell the truth. He has lied more than anybody. And so for me, a member of Congress from the south, who wouldn't be here had it not been for my fellow government, who defended my rights as a person to run for public office, I expect my government to take care of me. I don't want my government to become an oppressor. We can't have a president who thinks they are king. He can't be a dictator for a date. He can't get any of that. And so what we have in this person is somebody who basically is not a good person. He will not tell the truth. In this country, as well as being a leader, you have to be a man or a woman of your word. TAPPER: Yes. THOMPSON: Donald Trump is not a man of his word. TAPPER: On the subject you were just talking about before about the federal government and advances allowing you to the position of prominence you hold today, the Civil Rights Act was signed into law 60 years ago today. How are you thinking about that important legislation? THOMPSON: Well, there's no question, Jake. This country looks after all of its people, black, brown, whomever who comes into this country, it's a great place to be. We're not for the young men and women who came to the south and other parts of the country trying to get communities like the one I live in right now to treat us citizens like the framers of the Constitution said we wouldn't have it. So 60 years later, we're still struggling. We have one person running for president who demonizes the immigrant population trying to come to this country. He didn't say that we have black jobs in America. All those kinds of things -- that's not who we are. So with civil rights, human rights, we can do better. So as we celebrate these 60 years of civil rights legislation being passed by Democrats and Republicans, it's a time to rejoice and not look back, but look forward. TAPPER: Democratic Congressman Bennie Thompson, always good to have you on, sir. Thank you so much. The "New York Times" is that with new reporting now, noting more frequent lapses from President Biden observed by people who have spent time with him behind closed doors. One of the reporters who worked to get this reporting is going to join us next. Plus, Donald Trump's position on all this. His response when asked who he would want to run against if President Biden were to step aside? We're back in a moment. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) [17:17:58] TAPPER: And we're back with more in our 2024 lead, the "New York Times" out with a new headline this afternoon saying that "Biden's lapses are increasingly common according to some of those in the room." One of those on the byline is "New York Times" White House Correspondent Zolan Kanno-Youngs. He's also a CNN political analyst. Zolan, how common are you hearing these slip ups happen? And what is the degree of slip up? ZOLAN KANNO-YOUNGS, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: So this was the big question for many coming out of that debate debacle for President Biden. Is this a one off? Has this been happening more often more frequently? And our reporting here has shown that they're -- that people are going more concerned and have noticed more instances where the President seems confused or stumbles over the name of his own official or another foreign official. These sorts of lapses in the stumblings are becoming more frequent in recent months and even recent weeks. It is worth noting that leading into the debate, the President had a circus of travel, two international trips going to California for a fundraiser to the point that by the time that he got to Camp David our reporting shows that we -- our reporting shows that he was starting to work at 11:00 a.m. that it included a nap while he was at Camp David. Later on in the week, he would have a DACA event before the debates. And I talked to folks at that event that also were startled, saying that the soft spoken sort of tone and his tendency on occasion to stumble over the name of somebody including his own cabinet official definitely left some in the crowd shaken up who had followed him for a while now. So, look, our reporting does not seek to put a sort of root cause or diagnosis on this. But one thing that is becoming clear is that for those that are around the president both inside and in public these sort of more common -- these lapses are becoming more common, the stumbling in his speeches are becoming more common. And it has caused anxiety, particularly in the wake of a debate that seems to be becoming sort of a flashpoint for this election. [17:20:15] TAPPER: You also write about President Biden's interactions with world leaders when he was abroad and what appeared to be efforts by these world leaders to hide him, shield him from cameras. KANNO-YOUNGS: Yes, that's right. That's right. I mean, that was also a big question coming out of this. Not only what did world leaders think about the debate, but also what have they noticed, particularly in these trips. And you're right, they did notice sort of a what appear to be an attempt to sort of crowd around him as he walked out at times, apparently other leaders leading him sort of back into the group at the -- we've also talked to foreign leaders that said that they noticed as well, that sort of there had been sort of a decline in physically for the president as well. We talked to a former official who said that what they saw would not be the person that they would sort of sit next to, sit against foreign adversaries at this time, based off of what they've seen in recent weeks. So there has been a ripple effect globally. Look, I mean, there's -- the reporting has shown there's sort of two President Bidens. There's still the person that is able to make a trip to Ukraine, we have new reporting in here as well about after Israel was considering sort of -- any sort of military action against Iran, that the President was on the phone with him basically saying, you -- warning him to not do that. And the White House also brought out multiple officials that have spoken to his ability. But then there's this other version of President Biden as well that has these frequent slip ups. And you would think as well on other issue here is that we're really only getting sort of part of the story when we haven't seen the President do as many press conferences or interviews, as well. So, there's also a transparency question here sort of moving forward to get the complete picture and get to the answer of the question of whether or not the debate truly was a one off which it appears to not be. Or -- and which President Biden we're going to see throughout the rest of the campaign season. TAPPER: Zolan Kanno-Youngs, always good to have you on. Thank you so much. More insight from inside the Democratic Party had one of Barack Obama's closest most senior advisors it's going to join us next (COMMERCIAL BREAK) [17:26:15] TAPPER: Are the walls beginning to crack around President Biden? As we have reported, the first sitting Democratic member of Congress, Congressman Lloyd Doggett of Texas, called on President Biden to drop out of the race earlier today. Also today, other top Democratic lawmakers have gone further than they have before in questioning President Biden's abilities in the wake of what we all saw during last week's CNN debate. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA), FORMER HOUSE SPEAKER: Now again, I think it's a legitimate question to say, is this an episode or is this a condition? And so when people ask that question is legitimate of candidate. REP. MIKE QUIGLEY (D-IL): I think he has to be honest with himself. It's his decision. I just want him to appreciate at this time, just how much it impacts not just his race, but all the other races that are coming in November. (END VIDEO CLIP) TAPPER: Speaker Pelosi's office put out a statement after that interview saying that she has full confidence in President Biden. But earlier on the show, you heard former Democratic Congressman Tim Ryan of Ohio saying that Kamala Harris should be the nominee for the Democrats. With us now, former senior adviser in the Obama administration, David Axelrod. David, always good to see you. Do you think this is where we're at an inflection point? Is this the beginning of Democrats publicly saying we need someone else to be the nominee? Or is it going to be Biden ride or die all the way to November? DAVID AXELROD, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Look, I think the conversations that that have begun to be had publicly are being held all over the party privately. I think there have been -- there's been great concern since Thursday night. Look, Jake, the concern going into the debate was what -- you know, this question of age and his ability to perform, and the thought was that he would pull a State of the Union and perform well enough to quell those concerns. And instead, those concerns were exacerbated. And it is true that in, you know, in some polling that the -- there's not some cratering in that polling, but he started off behind. And so we needed to gain ground, and it's harder to gain ground now. So, you know, there is concern and there is concern among Democratic candidates who currently are running well ahead of him in their races, but wonder how much they can take in terms of fall off at the top of the ticket. So, yes, I think, you know -- I don't think this is the end. I think that these conversations are going to accelerate. And ultimately, it's the President's decision, as been said. I've been saying that all along, it's up to the President of the United States. But I also know he's a fighter, and his inclination is going to be to fight. He's defied the odds all his life. TAPPER: Yes. AXELROD: He's overcome great personal adversity, political odds and so on. And so his inclination is to be the fight. I also heard him last night, Jake, talk about the threat to our democracy after that Supreme Court decision. And I think he acutely understands that, feels that. And I think he's a patriot who spent 50 years of his life in service of this country. TAPPER: So -- AXELROD: And that decision is solely his. TAPPER: -- you can fight expectations, you can fight polls, you can't fight Father Time and Mother Nature. I mean, that -- AXELROD: Right. TAPPER: -- they have -- they're undefeated. And frankly, David, you were warning about this a year ago publicly and the White House went after you ferociously. AXELROD: Yes. Well, listen, that -- let's set that aside. But what I said then is what I fear now, which is that -- my -- I said my concerns were not political. I think the President had -- has a great record. I think that the choice between the President and Donald Trump is abundantly clear. But my concerns were actuarial, they weren't political. The arrow only points one way in life. And none of us are immune to it. And especially when you're in the toughest job on the planet, you know, think of the pressures that this President has been under, over the past year and, you know, personal and political. [17:30:38] So is it any wonder that that advances the process? I watched a President I worked for who is three years younger age significantly, over the course of eight years in the presidency, it's a killer job. TAPPER: Let's talk about him. AXELROD: So there's no shame in that. TAPPER: Let's talk…