CAPTIONS BY FAITH HAMBLYN, BRIGIT KELLY AND JAMES BROWN. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ COPYRIGHT ABLE 2024. TENA KOUTOU. NAU MAI HAERE MAI. WELCOME TO Q+A. I'M JACK TAME. TODAY, SHANE JONES ON HIS PLAN TO MASSIVELY EXPAND MINING IN NEW ZEALAND. LOOK, THE SIZE OF A MINING OPERATION ON THE 8 MILLION HECTARES OF DOC ESTATE IS AKIN TO THE SIZE OF A BEAUTY SPOT. THEN WE'LL TAKE YOU AROUND THE GLOBE FOR THE WORLD'S MOST IMPORTANT ELECTIONS ` PARIS, LONDON, NEW YORK, TAURANGA. I'M HORI BOP, AND I'M STANDING AS MAYOR ` SOME WOULD SAY 'NIGHTMAYOR' FOR TAURANGA CITY COUNCIL. WE'VE HAD A FEW NIGHTMARES IN THE PAST. BOY, HAVE WE HAD SOME NIGHTMARES REPRESENTING THIS CITY. SHANE JONES WANTS TO MINE MORE OF NEW ZEALAND. HIS DRAFT STRATEGY FOR MINERALS AIMS TO DOUBLE NEW ZEALAND'S MINING EXPORTS IN THE NEXT 10 YEARS, WHILE COMPLETING A CRITICAL MINERALS LIST AND A STOCKTAKE OF NEW ZEALAND'S MINERAL POTENTIAL. AS WE GO TO AIR, SHANE JONES IS JETTING OFF TO MEET WITH MINING INDUSTRY REPRESENTATIVES AND INVESTORS IN AUSTRALIA. WE SAT DOWN AS HE PREPARED TO FLY OUT. OH, WELL, CERTAINLY IN THE WEST COAST, TAI POUTINI OF SOUTH ISLAND. LET'S FACE IT, THEY HAD THE GUTS KICKED OUT OF THEM IN THE HELEN CLARK TIMES. TOURISM HASN'T DELIVERED WHAT THEY WANT. AND REALITY IS THAT NEW ZEALAND HAS A HOST OF MINERALS, SADLY, MANY OF THEM ON THE DOC ESTATE. AND I THINK WE'VE GOT THE TECHNOLOGY, WE'VE GOT THE HUNGER AMONGST THE YOUNG PEOPLE AND THE FAMILIES, AND I WANT TO SEE A FEWER OF THEM GOING TO AUSSIE. IF YOU CAN ASSESS THE SITUATION CRITICALLY FOR A MOMENT, WHAT ARE THE POTENTIAL DOWNSIDES FOR INCREASING MINING OPERATIONS IN NEW ZEALAND? WELL, OBVIOUSLY SOCIAL LICENCE IS AN ONGOING DEBATE ` DESPITE MY MEGAPHONE RHETORIC, I EVEN ADMIT THAT. BUT I WANT PEOPLE TO REALISE THAT THE SIZE OF THE DOC ESTATE IS ABOUT 8 MILLION HECTARES; THERE'S 26 MILLION HECTARES IN NEW ZEALAND. AND, LIKE, WE HAVE ABOUT 1500 OR 2000 HECTARES OF THE DOC ESTATE CURRENTLY UNDER ACTIVE MINING. IT'S AKIN TO A BEAUTY SPOT. WHEN YOU SAY SOCIAL LICENCE IS THE RISK, YOU MEAN LOSING SOCIAL LICENCE. BUT THAT IMPLIES THAT THE PEOPLE WHO ARE CONCERNED ABOUT MINING HAVE NO LEGITIMACY IN THOSE WORRIES. WELL, I AM TIRED OF THEIR VOICES. YOU'RE RIGHT THERE. I KNOW THERE WILL BE A LINE IN COROMANDEL WHERE YOU CAN'T MINE BEYOND. BUT I KIND OF FEEL THAT SOME OF THOSE VOICES, THEY REMIND ME OF SERGEANT YOKOI ` YOU KNOW, THE GUY THEY FOUND IN GUAM, I THINK, 20 YEARS AFTER THE SECOND WORLD WAR. THEY'RE FIGHTING STILL. YEAH, THEY'RE FIGHTING A WAR THAT'S NO LONGER RELEVANT. WHY IS IT NOT RELEVANT? WELL, I WOULD SAY TO YOU THAT GEOPOLITICAL FORCES MEAN THAT WE'VE GOT TO BOOST OUR OWN RESILIENCE. AND I KNOW THAT PEOPLE SHOOT ME DOWN FOR SAYING THAT, BECAUSE I'M TALKING ABOUT OBSCURE MINERALS, BUT ALSO COAL. I MEAN, WE'RE IMPORTING INDONESIAN COAL, AND PRETTY MUCH WE'RE NOT ALLOWED TO DIG COAL UP HERE FOR OUR OWN PURPOSES. GOLD ` YES, GOLD IS A LUXURY GOOD. BUT ASSOCIATED WITH GOLD MINING IS OFTEN THE PRESENCE OF ANTIMONY AND OTHER RARE EARTH MINERALS. AND THAT'S WHAT I'M TRYING TO PUT IN CONTRAST TO WHAT ARE SOME STRONG, PENETRATING VOICES. OK, WE'LL GET TO THE CONCERNS OF THOSE STRONG, PENETRATING VOICES IN A COUPLE OF MINUTES AND SOME OF THE CONCERNS AROUND CONSERVATION. BUT LET'S LOOK AT THIS THROUGH AN ECONOMIC LENS, FIRST OF ALL. SO HOW MUCH MONEY DO WE MAKE OFF MINERAL ROYALTIES AND LEVIES AT THE MOMENT? AT THE MOMENT, THE OVERARCHING CONTRIBUTION TO GDP IS ABOUT $2 BILLION. AND ABOUT $230 MILLION COMES FROM OIL AND GAS, AND ABOUT $30 MILLION, IN ROUGH FIGURES, ARE THE ROYALTIES ASSOCIATED WITH WHAT I MIGHT CALL HARD MINERALS. SO $30 MILLION IN HARD MINERALS. THAT'S FROM COAL, GOLD AND WHATEVER ELSE IS PULLED OUT OF THE GROUND, AS OPPOSED TO OIL AND GAS. YEAH. $30 MILLION. SO IF WE ARE EXPORTING ABOUT A BILLION DOLLARS WITH MINERAL EXPORTS, WHICH ARE YOUR NUMBERS, AND WE'RE MAKING ABOUT $30 MILLION IN ROYALTIES, YOU WANT TO DOUBLE THAT. HOW IS $60 MILLION A YEAR GOING TO BE A VEHICLE FOR TRANSFORMATION? YEAH, BUT I'D SAY TO YOU... THAT'S ONE 10,000TH OF NEW ZEALAND'S GDP. YEAH, BUT WHAT ABOUT THE GST? WHAT ABOUT THE PAYE? WHAT ABOUT THE CORPORATE TAXES THAT WILL FLOW? HOW MUCH DO WE MAKE FROM CORPORATE TAXES AND GST AND ALL OF THAT FROM THE EXTRACTION INDUSTRY, NOT INCLUDING OIL AND GAS. OK, WELL, LET'S LOOK AT A BILLION DOLLARS. THE BILLION DOLLARS ` THE GST, YOU ALREADY KNOW WHAT THAT FIGURE IS. WHERE'S THAT BILLION DOLLARS FROM? NO, I'M SAYING IF YOU LOOK AT THE $929 MILLION-ODD ASSOCIATED WITH HARD MINERALS` SO THAT'S EXPORTS, RIGHT? YEAH, THAT'S EXPORTS. BUT THAT'S NOT PROFITS. THAT'S EXPORTS. NO, THAT'S EXPORTS, BUT YOU KNOW AS WELL AS I DO THAT GST IS A LEVY ON ANY ECONOMIC ACTIVITY. AND PAYE COULD BE 20% OR 30%. COULD BE? WELL, CORPORATE TAX WILL DEPEND ON THE STRUCTURE. AND I SORT OF FEEL THAT IF WE HAVE THE RESOURCES AND WE'VE GOT A CAP ON DAIRY, AND WE'RE STRUGGLING TO PLANT ANY MORE FORESTS BECAUSE OF CONCERNS ABOUT PRODUCTIVE LAND, AND WE HAVE A PROBLEM WITH WATER STORAGE FOR FURTHER HORTICULTURE, I WANT TO OPEN UP MINERALS. BUT I JUST WANT TO CONSIDER THOSE NUMBERS AGAIN. SO LET'S TAKE THOSE NUMBERS AT THEIR MOST GENEROUS POINT, RIGHT? SO LET'S TAKE THIS GST 15% ON A BILLION. THIS IS A BILLION IN EXPORTS, NOT A BILLION IN PROFITS. BUT LET'S CALL IT A BILLION, 15% ON PROFITS. RIGHT? SO THAT'S $150 MILLION. ADD THOSE ROYALTIES IN. THAT'S $180 MILLION. AND THEN PAYE AS WELL ` OF WHAT, 28%, 30%? LET'S BE REALLY GENEROUS. SO YOU'RE STILL LOOKING AT UNDER $500 MILLION IN PROFIT FROM THE NEW ZEALAND GOVERNMENT. YOU WANT TO DOUBLE THAT. IT'S GOING TO BRING IN ONLY A BILLION DOLLARS A YEAR, LESS THAN ONE 400TH OF NEW ZEALAND'S GDP, AND THAT'S YOUR VEHICLE FOR TRANSFORMATION. BUT JACK, THAT TYPE OF INJECTION, THAT TYPE OF REVENUE IN THE WEST COAST IS TRANSFORMATIONAL. SO IS ALL THE GST GOING TO THE WEST COAST? IS THE PAYE GOING TO THE WEST COAST? ACTUALLY I'M LOOKING AT HANDING BACK SOME OF THE ROYALTIES TO THE WEST COAST. OK, EXPLAIN THAT TO US. THE ROYALTIES, NOT THE GST? NO, NOT THE GST. IT'S NOT THE GOVERNMENT'S POLICY TO REDISTRIBUTE GST LIKE THE AUSSIES. BUT WE'RE UNDERTAKING A REVIEW OF THE ROYALTIES WITH A VIEW TO DISTRIBUTING THEM BACK TO THE AREA. BUT I'D SAY TO YOU, THE MINERALS ARE LARGELY IN THE WEST COAST ` NOT EXCLUSIVELY ` AND THAT IS A SUBSTANTIAL INJECTION BACK INTO A BENIGHTED PART OF NEW ZEALAND. IT WOULD BE IF YOU WERE PUTTING A BILLION DOLLARS IN. BUT AT THE MOMENT, ROYALTIES MAKE UP ABOUT 2% OF THOSE TOTAL EXPORTS. SO AT THE MOMENT, EVEN IF WE DOUBLE OUR ROYALTIES, AT $60 MILLION A YEAR, AND IF ALL OF THAT'S GOING TO THE WEST COAST ` THAT'S WHAT YOU'RE SAYING? BUT IT'S NOT ONLY THAT, IT'S THE PAYE. WHICH ISN'T GOING TO THE WEST COAST. NO, NO. WELL, IT'S CERTAINLY MONEY THAT'S GENERATED. AND WHEN THOSE JOBS FLOW ` HOPEFULLY THEY'RE ALL PAYING TAXES ` THOSE ARE MORE PEOPLE, MORE ENERGY, MORE HOUSEHOLDS AND MORE COMMUNITIES REMAINING INTACT. NOW, I DON'T THINK YOU CAN PURELY JUDGE THE SUCCESS OF WHAT I'M SAYING BY LOOKING JUST AT THE WEST COAST, ALTHOUGH MY FOCUS IS THERE, BECAUSE THAT'S WHERE A LOT OF THE HISTORY` BUT THERE'S THE SANTANA MINE, THE GOLD MINE, WHICH MAY OR MAY NOT GO AHEAD IN CENTRAL OTAGO. THERE'S THE EXPANSION PLANS IN COROMANDEL. AND WHAT ALTERNATIVES ARE THERE IN THESE AREAS? NO, NO. I MEAN, TOURISM, FOR EXAMPLE. OK, SO THE TOURISM OF THE WEST COAST HAS NOT ACTUALLY LED THEM TO BE ONE OF THE HIGHEST RANKING PER CAPITA GDP PEOPLE. THIS IS ALL ABOUT BRINGING SOME DIVERSITY AND BRINGING, ACTUALLY, AN OPPORTUNITY FOR NEW ZEALANDERS TO STAY THERE. NOW, I KNOW IT SOUNDS TRITE, ME COMPLAINING ABOUT EVERYONE GOING TO AUSSIE, ETC, BUT THAT IS THE CASE. NO, BUT THE THING IS THAT YOU'RE MAKING THIS AN ECONOMIC ARGUMENT ABOUT OPENING UP MINING IN NEW ZEALAND. SO IN DETAIL ABOUT MINING PROFITS AND TAXES IS NOT MADE PUBLIC IN NEW ZEALAND. BUT DURING THE LAST NATIONAL GOVERNMENT ECONOMIST GEOFF BERTRAM PRODUCED A PRETTY THOROUGH ANALYSIS OF THE ECONOMICS OF MINERAL EXTRACTION IN NEW ZEALAND. HAVE YOU READ THAT, BY ANY CHANCE? ELABORATE. WHICH PART? I MAY VERY WELL HAVE READ IT. HIS ANALYSIS AT THE TIME SAID THIS ` 'THE VERY HIGH DEPRECIATION SHARE IN GOLD AND SILVER MINING 'IMPLIES LOW COMPANY INCOME TAX.' THAT'S THE CORPORATE TAX YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT. 'AND INCOME TAX AND ROYALTIES COMBINED 'WERE ONLY 4.4% OF TOTAL OUTPUT.' SO AGAIN, YOUR VEHICLE FOR ECONOMIC TRANSFORMATION ISN'T GOING TO BE BRINGING IN MUCH MONEY. THIS IS WHERE YOU AND I DISAGREE. I'VE BEEN DOWN AND I'VE SEEN THOSE GOLD MINES. IN FACT, WHEN I WAS THE PROVINCIAL GROWTH FUND MINISTER, I PUT $15 MILLION INTO A GOLD MINE. THAT WAS WHEN EUGENIE SAGE WASN'T LOOKING. THEY'VE SINCE PAID THAT MONEY BACK. THEY ARE EXPANDING THOSE NUMBERS OF JOBS BY HUNDREDS AND HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE. I THOUGHT WE WERE GOING FOR RARE EARTH MINERALS, NOT GOLD. BUT YOU CAN'T HAVE RARE EARTH MINERALS IN SOME CASES, BECAUSE IT'S LOCATED WHERE GOLD IS, SUCH AS ANTIMONY, A MINERAL WHICH IS HIGHLY SOUGHT AFTER BY THE AMERICANS. RIGHT. SO AGAIN, GEOFF SAID TO US THIS WEEK, EVEN THOUGH THOSE FIGURES WERE TAKEN IN 2011, HE SAID THAT HE FEELS THOSE FIGURES, ABOUT 4.4% OF TOTAL OUTPUT, WOULD BE BROADLY RIGHT. SO IF YOU HAVE A BILLION DOLLARS IN EXPORTS, YOU DOUBLE IT, $2 BILLION IN EXPORTS, JUST 4.4% OF TOTAL OUTPUT. WOULD YOU CONSIDER ADJUSTING THE ROYALTY RATE FOR GOLD, FOR EXAMPLE? YEAH, WELL, LOOK, I'VE ASKED THE OFFICIALS TO HAVE A LOOK AT THE ROYALTY RATES. BUT AT THE SAME TIME, I'M NOT GOING TO SHY AWAY FROM THE FACT THAT I SEE BOTH A MORAL, AN ECONOMIC AND A SOCIAL CASE FOR SUBSTANTIALLY INCREASING THE FOOTPRINT OF MINING IN NEW ZEALAND. I THINK THAT THE CURRENT FOOTPRINT IS ACTUALLY CATASTROPHISED. AND THEN THERE'S A TRADE-OFF. IF YOU WANT MORE ECONOMIC ACTIVITY, SHOULD WE LOAD TOO MANY COSTS UP FRONTS? OR SHOULD WE ALLOW FOR A DEPRECIATION SCHEDULE THAT ENABLES PEOPLE TO UPGRADE THEIR CAPITAL ASSETS? AND IN TERMS OF THE ROYALTY, I'VE ASKED THE OFFICIALS TO HAVE A LOOK AT IT, WITH A VIEW TO REDISTRIBUTING SOME OF THAT ROYALTY BACK INTO THE REGIONS. RIGHT, SO ARE YOU ALSO ASKING THOSE OFFICIALS TO CONSIDER THE ROYALTY RATE? TWO THINGS. HOW WOULD WE TRANSFER THE ROYALTIES AND THE APPROPRIATENESS AS THE INDUSTRY EXPANDS, AND HAVE A COMPARISON WITH OVERSEAS JURISDICTIONS? AT THIS STAGE, THAT'S NOT CABINET POLICY, BUT I WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT THE RATE IS SET, THAT IT ACCELERATES ECONOMIC ACTIVITY, BUT THEN THAT THE PUBLIC FEEL THAT THEY'RE GETTING A REASONABLE RETURN FROM THE ACTUAL RESOURCE. OK. LET'S TALK ABOUT THE RETURN FOR THE PUBLIC. SO IF GOLD AND COAL MAKE UP ALMOST ALL OF NEW ZEALAND'S MINERAL EXPORTS AT THE MOMENT, WHO OWNS OUR BIGGEST COAL AND GOLD MINES? ARE THOSE NEW ZEALAND COMPANIES OR OVERSEAS-BASED COMPANIES? THERE'S A MIXTURE. OBVIOUSLY, MACRAES ARE NOT THE GORILLA BUT THE BIG END OF TOWN. BATHURST IS A MAJOR PLAYER IN RELATION... SO MACRAES ` LET'S JUST GO THROUGH THEM. MACRAES IS THE BIGGEST GOLD MINE AT THE MOMENT, AND THAT'S OWNED BY OCEANAGOLD, WHICH IS OVERSEAS. WAIHI IS THE SECOND BIGGEST. THAT'S OWNED BY OCEANAGOLD. OCEANAGOLD. OVERSEAS. COAL, STOCKTON COAL IS OWNED BY BATHURST, LISTED ON THE ASX, MAJORITY-OWNED SINGAPORE. PARTLY PARTLY OWNED BY NEW ZEALANDERS. WAIKATO'S TWO COAL MINES ` BATHURST AS WELL. ROTOWARO. SO YOU WOULD ACCEPT THAT AT THE MOMENT OUR BIGGEST OPERATIONS ARE LARGELY OWNED BY OVERSEAS OPERATORS? CORRECT. RIGHT. WHY IS IT GOING TO BE ANY DIFFERENT ONCE WE EXPAND THAT? WHY SHOULD WE EXPECT PROFITS TO STAY IN NEW ZEALAND? WELL, I COULD MOUNT THE SAME ARGUMENT, BUT I WON'T, ABOUT THE AUSSIE-OWNED BANKS. THE REALITY IS, WE'RE AN OPEN-TRADING LIBERAL ECONOMY. THESE COMPANIES ARE ENTITLED TO COME HERE, DEVELOP OUR RESOURCES, EMPLOY OUR PEOPLE, AND IF THEY MAKE A PROFIT, POCKET IT. NOW, WILL CERTAIN NEW ZEALANDERS STEP UP TO THE PLATE? POSSIBLY, IF SANTANA ARE GOOD FOR THEIR WORD AND PUT IT ON THE NEW ZEALAND STOCK EXCHANGE, YOU COULD HAVE KIWIS OWNING THAT COMPANY VIA THE STOCK EXCHANGE. BUT WE HAVEN'T GENERATED THE SURPLUS AND WE HAVEN'T GENERATED ENOUGH ENTHUSIASM, AS KIWI INVESTORS, TO CAPITALISE THESE SECTORS. I MEAN, YOU'RE LITERALLY GOING TO AUSTRALIA AFTER THIS INTERVIEW TO TALK TO POTENTIAL INVESTORS. YES, I AM. YEAH. I THOUGHT IT WAS NEW ZEALAND FIRST, NOT AUSTRALIA FIRST. I'M GOING AS A WALKING BILLBOARD. AND LET'S FACE IT, WE HAVE A WARM AND COSY RELATIONSHIP. SAYING, 'COME AND TAKE OUR MINERALS, 'AND THEN TAKE YOUR PROFITS BACK TO AUSTRALIA.' NO, SEND OUR NIECES AND NEPHEWS BACK AND COME AND WORK IN NEW ZEALAND AND PUT SOME OF YOUR CAPITAL BACK INTO NEW ZEALAND. THEY ARE ALREADY HERE. AND WHERE WILL THOSE PROFITS GO? WELL, ONCE AGAIN, WE'RE GETTING BACK TO WHAT YOU AND I ARE SAYING. IN ANY ENTERPRISE, JOBS GENERATE PAYE, JOBS GENERATE GST, JOBS GENERATE TAX. THEY WILL BE ROYALTY. BUT IF THE CAPITAL IS NOT IN NEW ZEALAND TO EXPAND OUR MINERAL ESTATE, THEN I'M HAPPY TO TAKE IT FROM AUSTRALIA. SO IF JOBS GENERATE PAYE, ACCORDING TO YOUR OWN SUMS, PURSUING MINING WILL ONLY INCREASE THE NUMBER OF JOBS FROM 5000 TO 7000 SO WE'RE DOUBLING THE SIZE OF EXPORTS BUT ONLY ADDING 2000 JOBS IN AN INDUSTRY THAT CURRENTLY EMPLOYS 5000. WHY AREN'T WE DOUBLING JOBS, IF WE'RE DOUBLING EXPORTS? WELL, OVER THE YEARS, THIS HAS BECOME, BECAUSE OF HEALTH AND SAFETY, A HIGHLY MECHANISED PROCESS. AND I DON'T WANT TO TALK UNNECESSARILY ABOUT THE HEALTH AND SAFETY THING, BECAUSE THAT'S ANOTHER WHOLE TOPIC, BUT IT HAS TO BE UPPERMOST IN OUR MINDS. SO THOSE JOBS ARE INCREDIBLY VALUABLE. THE LEVEL OF PRODUCTIVITY ASSOCIATED WITH THOSE JOBS IS EXTREMELY HIGH. SO THEY ARE HIGH-PAYING JOBS. YES, THEY'RE HIGH-PAID JOBS, BUT IF WE'RE RELYING ON THE ECONOMIC TRANSFORMATION THAT IS PROVIDED BY GREATER EMPLOYMENT OPPORTUNITIES, WE'RE NOT DOUBLING THE SIZE OF THE INDUSTRY IN TERMS OF THOSE JOBS, SO THE PAYE THAT WOULD BE BROUGHT IN IS NOT THE SAME AS IT WOULD BE WITH 5000. I THINK, THOUGH, JACK, YOU'RE BEING UNREASONABLE. THE PLACE TO DO THIS SHOW IS IN REEFTON, WESTPORT, GREYMOUTH. IN THAT BENIGHTED PART OF NEW ZEALAND, SUCH AN INFUSION IS GOING TO BE TRANSFORMATIONAL. NOT ONLY ARE WE GOING TO HAVE TO THEN INVEST IN COASTAL SHIPPING ` IN FACT, I THINK IT'S WESTERN MINERALS, THEY'RE BRINGING A HUGE BARGE DOWN FROM INDONESIA, BECAUSE THEY'RE UPGRADING. THEY'RE SUBSTANTIALLY INCREASING IN THAT PART OF NEW ZEALAND ECONOMIC ACTIVITY. I AM THE REGIONAL DEVELOPMENT MINISTER. THOSE ARE HIGH-SKILLED JOBS. MANY OF THEM WILL BE ENGINEERING JOBS. DO YOU ACCEPT THAT MANY OF THOSE ARE GOING TO BE OVERSEAS WORKERS, EFFECTIVELY FLYING IN AND FLYING OUT? WHEN I WENT TO BLACKBALL, 300 PEOPLE TURNED UP FOR THE ANNOUNCEMENT OF THE MINING POLICY. THE MAJORITY OF THEM WERE MINERS. EXCLUSIVELY, THEY WERE KIWIS. I'M TOLD BY THE FIRMS DOWN THERE, THERE ARE NO SHORTAGE OF YOUNG KIWIS LINING UP TO TAKE THOSE JOBS. THE PROBLEM IS, AT THIS STAGE, WE'VE DEPRECATED ALL OF THE` MOST OF THE TRAINING OPPORTUNITIES. WE'VE DOWNPLAYED MINING THROUGH OUR UNIVERSITIES. YES, SOME SPECIALISED ROLES WILL BE TAKEN BY FOREIGNERS. BUT THERE'S A LOT OF KIWIS, MATE, IN AFRICA, IN INDONESIA, IN AUSTRALIA, AND THEY'VE PERSONALLY TOLD ME, 'JONESY, IF YOU ACTUALLY KICK A GOAL IN THIS REGARD, 'WE'LL COME HOME AND HELP DEVELOP OUR OWN COUNTRY.' THEY'VE PERSONALLY TOLD YOU THAT? YEAH, I KNOW HEAPS OF THEM. BECAUSE SADLY, MANY OF THEM COME FROM NORTHLAND, AND THEY'VE NEVER COME HOME. THE THING ABOUT MINERAL EXTRACTION, OBVIOUSLY, IS THAT YOU CAN ONLY DIG IT UP ONCE. THAT'S TRUE. YOU MAKE A VERY GOOD POINT. SO EVEN IF IT EMPLOYS PEOPLE FOR A PERIOD, THOSE AREN'T NECESSARILY LONG-TERM JOBS IN THOSE PARTICULAR REGIONS OR AREAS, RIGHT? AT SOME POINT, THE SEAM RUNS DRY. IT'S NO LONGER ECONOMIC FOR MINING OPERATORS TO CONTINUE THEIR WORK. WHAT HAPPENS THEN? YEAH. YOU'RE SORT OF PUTTING UP A STRAW MAN THERE, REALLY, AREN'T YOU? WE'RE LIVING AT A POINT IN TIME... CAN YOU THINK OF ANY TIME THAT THAT'S HAPPENED ON THE WEST COAST IN THE PAST? NO, I MEAN, LOOK, I COME FROM THE KAURI GUM INDUSTRY. IT'S A BOOM OR BUST. BUT AT A POINT IN TIME, MOTHER NATURE'S RESOURCES ARE THERE TO BE USED. THE FINAL ANSWER WILL BE SCIENCE, TECHNOLOGY AND GEOLOGY, JACK, IN TERMS OF THE WEST COAST. AND I DON'T THINK WE SHOULD UNDERMINE THE OBJECTIVES THAT I'VE SET FOR MYSELF BY CONTEMPLATING THAT GEOLOGY MIGHT RUN OUT. IT IS WHAT IT IS. WE ARE AT A POINT IN TIME, OUR CIRCUMSTANCES ECONOMICALLY ARE QUITE DIRE IN REGIONAL NEW ZEALAND. THIS IS AN OPPORTUNITY FOR US TO EXPLOIT MOTHER NATURE'S LEGACY, AND I'M ALL FOR IT. TO EXPLOIT MOTHER NATURE? TOTALLY. THE QUESTION IS WHETHER OR NOT EXPLOITING MOTHER NATURE IS ULTIMATELY GOING TO BE WORTH WHAT COULD BE A POTENTIALLY LIMITED ECONOMIC BENEFIT. I MEAN, IF WE'RE ONLY GOING TO BE GETTING 4.4% OF TOTAL OUTPUT, WE'RE ONLY GOING TO BE ADDING 2000 JOBS OVERALL, WE DON'T NECESSARILY HAVE THE SKILLS TO FILL ALL OF THOSE JOBS AT THE MOMENT, BECAUSE WE AREN'T TRAINING ENOUGH PEOPLE THROUGH OUR UNIVERSITIES, IT'S REALLY HARD TO SEE HOW THIS MIGHT BE A VEHICLE FOR NEW ZEALAND'S TRANSFORMATION. SO I REPEAT AGAIN, THESE FIRMS ARE ALREADY LARGELY EMPLOYING KIWIS. MANY KIWIS OVERSEAS, I HAVE NO DOUBT IN MY MIND, WITH THE RIGHT OPPORTUNITY, WOULD COME BACK TO REINVIGORATE THIS PARTICULAR SEGMENT. AND WHEN AN INDUSTRY GOES THROUGH A PROCESS OF THE BELL-SHAPED CURVE, THE RESOURCES ASSOCIATED WITH THAT INDUSTRY END UP FEEDING OTHER TYPES OF INDUSTRIES. BUT YOU ARE RIGHT THAT ANY ECONOMY HAS TO BE CONSTANTLY EVOLVING. BUT WE'RE AT A POINT WHERE THE WORLD HAS A THIRST AND HUNGER FOR RESOURCES THAT WE HAVE. EITHER WE COMPETE INTERNATIONALLY TO GET THEM TO COME HERE, OR WE CREATE OUR OWN INDUSTRY AT THIS POINT IN TIME TO BOOST OUR RESILIENCE. AND I'M ALL FOR THAT. TO WHAT EXTENT HAVE OUR PARIS CLIMATE COMMITMENTS FACTORED IN PLANS AROUND MINING? I THINK THAT THE PARTY THAT I BELONG TO, WE DON'T WANT TO DO ANYTHING THAT'S DEMONSTRABLY OFFENSIVE AGAINST THESE INTERNATIONAL TARGETS, BUT WE WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT THE SOLVENCY OF OUR OWN COUNTRY RANKS AS HIGH AS ANY SORT OF TARGETS THAT EARLIER GOVERNMENTS MAY HAVE COMMITTED US TO. AND LOOK` THAT DOESN'T ANSWER THE QUESTION, THOUGH, SORRY. TO WHAT EXTENT HAVE THOSE PARIS COMMITMENTS FACTORED IN YOUR PLANS? WELL, WHOEVER DOES THE INVESTMENTS, AND WHEN THEY END UP HAVING TO PAY AN ETS LEVY, THAT'S THEIR ROLE. JUST THE ETS ` AS IN FOR THEIR OPERATIONS, RATHER THAN THE COAL THAT THEY MIGHT BE DIGGING UP, FOR EXAMPLE. OK. CAN I ANSWER THAT IN A SLIGHTLY PROTRACTED WAY? THAT'S NOT LIKE YOU (!) SO IF WE'RE NOT GOING TO DO THESE TYPES OF INDUSTRIES HERE ` AND YOU MAY GET CROSS WITH ME SAYING THIS ` THEY'RE GOING TO HAPPEN ELSEWHERE. SO I SAY TO YOU THAT OUR ENVIRONMENTAL STANDARDS, OUR LABOUR STANDARDS AND RELATED THRESHOLDS IN NEW ZEALAND ARE BETTER THAN ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD. SO I BELIEVE THAT BY HAVING THIS INDUSTRY HERE, WE HAVE A FUNCTIONING ETS, THEN WE WILL MAKE ` THEY WILL MAKE THE NECESSARY CONTRIBUTIONS AS REQUIRED UNDER OUR CLIMATE CHANGE LEGISLATION FOR INDUSTRY HERE. BUT WHAT I'M MORE FEARFUL ABOUT IS IF WE DON'T DO IT HERE, WE END UP DE-INDUSTRIALISING OURSELVES. AND I THINK THAT'S MORE OF A THREAT TO THE LONG-TERM FUTURE OF NEW ZEALAND THAN ENDLESS DEBATES ABOUT THESE INTERNATIONAL TARGETS. LET'S TALK ABOUT THE CONSERVATION SIDE OF THINGS. YOU WANT TO INCREASE OPERATIONS ON CONSERVATION STEWARDSHIP LAND. WHAT ARE THE POTENTIAL CONSERVATION DOWNSIDES? WELL, IT'S NOT GOING TO BE CARRIED OUT ON SCHEDULE FOUR LANDS. AND I THINK WE'RE GERRY BROWNLEE AND THAT GENERATION OF POLITICIANS TRIED TO KICK A GOAL. IN THE KEY GOVERNMENT, ALL HELL BROKE OUT WHEN THEY GAVE THE IMPRESSION THAT NATIONAL PARKS WERE OPEN. THE PRIME MINISTER, AND I'VE ALSO SAID IT, HAVE SAID NO. MY QUESTION WAS, WHAT ARE THE DOWNSIDES, THOUGH? WHAT ARE THE POTENTIAL CONSERVATION DOWNSIDES? WELL, WE NEED PEOPLE TO MITIGATE AND CLEAN UP AFTER THEY'VE DONE THEIR MINING. BUT WE SHOULDN'T HOLD THE CURRENT MINING INDUSTRY TO STANDARDS THAT SUBSISTED IN THE 1950s AND '60s. IT'S A WHOLE LOT MORE OF AN INTELLIGENT INDUSTRY. YOU STILL HAVEN'T QUITE ANSWERED THAT QUESTION. WHAT ARE THE POTENTIAL DOWNSIDES, FROM A CONSERVATION PERSPECTIVE? THE POTENTIAL DOWNSIDES ARE WHEN A MINER DOES NOT RESTORE, MITIGATE, OR ENSURE THAT THE AREA OF LAND ` WHICH IS ONLY 1500ha, BY THE WAY, ON THE DOC ESTATE, IS NOT RESTORED. NEW ZEALAND'S TOURISM INDUSTRY IS 37 TIMES MORE VALUABLE THAN MINING AT THE MOMENT. INTERNATIONAL TOURISM EXPORTS ARE 10 TIMES OUR MINERAL EXPORTS. THE CLEAN AND GREEN IMAGE IS ABSOLUTELY VITAL FOR NEW ZEALAND, RIGHT? YOU WOULD AGREE WITH THAT? SO WHAT IMPACT WILL DOUBLING OUR MINING OPERATIONS HAVE ON THAT REPUTATION? LOOK, THE SIZE OF A MINING OPERATION ON THE 8 MILLION HECTARES OF DOC ESTATE IS AKIN TO THE SIZE OF A BEAUTY SPOT. IT'S IRRELEVANT. SO WHAT ABOUT HAVING A MINISTER IN CHARGE WHO'S MAKING JOKES ABOUT KILLING FREDDY THE BLIND FROG? WHAT SORT OF IMPACT DO YOU THINK IT HAS, HAVING A NEW ZEALAND CABINET MINISTER JOKING ABOUT KILLING ENDEMIC ANIMALS? I THINK THE FACT THAT WHAT I'M REALLY DOING IS DEPLOYING RHETORICAL DEVICES AND TAKING ON THE CATASTROPHISING, DOOMSDAY APPROACH. AND SINCE HELEN CLARK'S GOVERNMENT, SOCIETY IS, IN MY VIEW, BEING ENVELOPED IN A DOOMSDAY VIEW ABOUT MINING. I DON'T ACCEPT IT. AND THE REALITY IS, IF WE CAN CREATE JOBS, A MINING ENTERPRISE THAT RESTORES ITS NATURE, AND WE MOVE A FEW ANIMALS AND CRITTERS AROUND, AND THE NET EFFECT IS THAT THE SIZE OF THE POPULATION STILL INCREASES, YES, SOME WILL GO BY THE WAY, BUT LONG AS THE NET EFFECT IS THAT WE'VE GROWN THE OVERARCHING POPULATION, WE CAN DO THAT ANYWHERE. AND SO WHAT IF SOMETHING GOES WRONG? THAT'S A BEST-CASE SCENARIO. MINING IS AN INDUSTRY FRAUGHT WITH RISK. SO WHAT IF SOMETHING GOES WRONG, AND WE HAVE A BIODIVERSITY CRISIS? BUT ALL INDUSTRIES HAVE RISK. AND IT'S UP TO THE REGULATORS AND IT'S UP TO THE OPERATORS WHO THEMSELVES WILL FACE FINANCIAL PENALTIES IF THEY DON'T COMPLY. I MEAN, MATE, I WANT TO TELL YOU` BUT WHAT WOULD BE THE IMPACT TO OUR IMAGE? LIKE IF, IF THERE WERE SOME SORT OF ECOLOGICAL CATASTROPHE AS A RESULT OF A MINING OPERATION GONE WRONG, WHAT WOULD BE THE IMPACT ON OUR IMAGE? BUT YOU SEE, ONCE AGAIN, JACK, YOU CAN'T CATASTROPHISE THINGS. THERE IS NO MAJOR SORT OF CHERNOBYL DISASTER HERE IN NEW ZEALAND. THESE ARE TINY OPERATIONS. THEY ARE A FRACTION, SORT OF A PIMPLE SIZE. THE TUI MINE REMEDIATION WAS PRETTY BAD. OK, SO WAS THAT A CATASTROPHE? NO. WHAT THAT REPRESENTED WAS THE CROWN, SADLY, AFTER SOME VAGABONDS, HAVING TO SPEND $300-ODD MILLION. NO, THAT'S THE TUI OILFIELD. THE TUI MINE COST $21 MILLION. TO TUI OIL FIELD, NOT TO BE CONFUSED, COST ALMOST HALF A BILLION. YEAH, BUT WHAT YOU'RE DOING` I WOULD DEFINITELY CALL THAT A CATASTROPHE. OK. WHAT YOU'RE NOT FOCUSING ON IS THAT THE CURRENT MINING INDUSTRY SHOULD NOT BE HELD TO ACCOUNT BECAUSE OF ONE OR THREE EGREGIOUS FAILURES ` SAME AS THE OIL AND GAS INDUSTRY SHOULDN'T. AND I THINK WHAT'S PENETRATED IS THIS DOOMSDAY THINKING THAT THE INDUSTRY DON'T VALUE THEIR SOCIAL LICENCE. I HAPPEN TO THINK THEY DO. YES, THE DAIRY INDUSTRY HAS` IT'S A TOP CONCERN FOR THE MINING INDUSTRY, CLEARLY. AND I'M INTERESTED IN THIS, BECAUSE I'M REALLY INTERESTED IN YOUR APPROACH WHEN IT COMES TO SOCIAL LICENCE. YOU CRITICISED THE LABOUR GOVERNMENT FOR THE OIL AND GAS BAN AND THE WAY IN WHICH THAT MIGHT HAVE SPOOKED INTERNATIONAL INVESTORS IN THE EXTRACTION SPACE. WHAT IS THE RISK THAT YOU, AS MINISTER, ARE GUILTY OF LURCHING TO EXTREMES IN THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION? YES, I HAVE HEARD THAT CRITICISM. AND WHAT I FEEL THAT I'M DOING, THROUGH MY ADVOCACY, IS I'M BRINGING THE PENDULUM BACK TO WHERE IT BELONGS. I'M TRYING TO RESCUE THE PENDULUM FROM THE THINKING AND BEING ENVELOPED IN A DOOMSDAY ANALYSIS. SO AN EQUAL-AND-OPPOSITE-FORCE APPROACH? THE REALITY, IS THE DOOMSDAY, GREEN ANKLE BITERS HAVE HAD IT ALL THEIR OWN WAY FOR THE LAST 25 YEARS WE'VE ENDED UP DELEGITIMISING, DEMONISING A SECTOR THAT UNDER MY ADVOCACY IS GOING TO BE RESTORED. BUT LET'S JUST IMAGINE FOR A MOMENT THAT I'M AN INTERNATIONAL INVESTOR WATCHING THIS ON YOUTUBE, RIGHT? AND, YOU KNOW, THESE BIG COMPANIES DEAL IN RISK. ONE MINUTE I'VE GOT A GOVERNMENT BANNING OIL AND GAS OPERATIONS, OR EXPLORATION, TRYING TO BAN ALL MINES ON CONSERVATION LAND. SIX MONTHS LATER, AND I'VE GOT A MINISTER PUBLICLY SAYING, 'DIG, BABY, DIG.' THE MESSAGING FROM GOVERNMENT HAS LURCHED FROM ONE EXTREME TO ANOTHER. WHAT'S TO SAY IT WON'T HAPPEN AGAIN? WELL, I HAVE TO CONCEDE A NUMBER OF INTERNATIONAL PEOPLE I'VE SPOKEN TO DO REGARD NEW ZEALAND AS A MORE RISKIER PLACE TO INVEST IN. BUT THAT RISK IS NOT JUST ASSOCIATED WITH MINING. AND I THINK THAT'S A MORE DIRE THREAT THAN SOME OF MY HYPERBOLE THAT PEOPLE DISMISS ABOUT MINING. DO YOU ACCEPT THAT YOUR HYPERBOLE MIGHT HAVE CONTRIBUTED TO THAT? NO, I THINK WHAT I'M DOING IS ACTUALLY RESTORING SOME BALANCE, BECAUSE THE DOOMSDAY SORT OF ANKLE BITERS HAVE HAD THEIR WAY FOR FAR TOO LONG. AND I GENUINELY BELIEVE THE MAJORITY OF THE PEOPLE IN THE LABOUR PARTY ARE STARTING TO SEE THINGS MY WAY, THAT THIS ` AND THEY, OF ALL BLOODY PEOPLE, SHOULD BE SEEING IT ` THAT'S THE ORIGINS, THAT WE'RE BRINGING THE PENDULUM BACK TO THE MIDDLE, SOCIAL LICENCE IS IMPORTANT, MITIGATION, RESTORATION IS ESSENTIAL. AND I'M ASSURED BY THE MINING INDUSTRY THAT THEY VALUE THOSE ELEMENTS OF THE SOCIAL LICENCE. AFTER THE BREAK, ALBATROSSES AND DOLPHINS ` CAMERAS ON FISHING BOATS HAVE LED TO A MASSIVE SURGE IN REPORTED BY-CATCH. WHY IS SHANE JONES REVIEWING THEM? AS THE GOVERNMENT PUSHES AHEAD WITH ITS FAST-TRACK LEGISLATION, THE MINISTERS RESPONSIBLE ARE FACING SIGNIFICANT PUSHBACK FROM THOSE WHO THINK THE PROPOSED BILL PUTS TOO MUCH POWER IN THE HANDS OF MINISTERS, WITH LIMITED CONCERN FOR THE ENVIRONMENT. THE SELECT COMMITTEE IS YET TO ISSUE ITS FINAL REPORT ON THE BILL, BUT I ASKED SHANE JONES HOW THE PROCESS HAD AFFECTED HIS THINKING SO FAR. - WELL, THERE ARE THREE THINGS. I MEAN, OBVIOUSLY, I SUPPORT WHAT CHRIS BISHOP AND THE PRIME MINISTER SAID, SUBJECT TO THE OUTCOME OF THE SELECT COMMITTEE PROCESS. WE'RE UP FOR SENSIBLE CHANGES. I WOULD SAY THAT THOSE CHANGES HAVE TO DO WITH HOW WE CAST, WITH BALANCE, THE OBLIGATIONS UNDER THE TREATY. SECONDLY, HOW WE ACHIEVE A LEVEL OF TRANSPARENCY, IN TERMS OF THE ROLE OF THE EVENTUAL COMMITTEE THAT DEALS WITH THE CONDITIONS AND WHAT TO DO WITH THE ACTUAL CABINET MINISTERS, WHO AT THE MOMENT ARE ULTIMATE DECISION-MAKERS ` SHOULD THEY BE RETIRED FROM THE FIELD? SHOULD THEY STAY UNDER CERTAIN CONDITIONS? IF YOU'RE ASKING ME, 'SHANE, WHERE DO YOU THINK THE CHANGE IS GOING TO BE,' WHEN I'VE LOOKED AT THE SUBMISSIONS, THOSE ARE THE THREE MAJOR AREAS. - SO WOULD YOU SUPPORT CHANGES AROUND THOSE THREE CABINET MINISTERS HAVING ULTIMATE OVERSIGHT? OH, LOOK, I'M JUST GOING TO TAIHOA. I'M GOING TO TAIHOA. IF IT PROVES THE CASE, JACK, THAT CABINET MINISTERS FEEL THAT THAT'S A SENSIBLE CHANGE, I'M ONE VOICE ` IT'S NOT WHERE I AM AT THE MOMENT, BUT I WANT EVERYONE TO ACCEPT THAT I'M ONE VOICE IN CABINET, AND IF CABINET GOES IN THAT DIRECTION, THEN. - WHERE ARE YOU? - OH, NO, I ALWAYS ACCEPTED THAT DECISION-MAKERS, POLITICIANS WHO CAN BE VOTED OUT AT THE NEXT ELECTION SHOULD BE ENSCONCED AS THE ULTIMATE DECISION-MAKER, SO THAT WE DON'T HAVE NIMBYISM OVERWHELMING THE OVERARCHING INTERESTS OF NEW ZEALAND'S ECONOMIC FUTURE. - SHOULD THE MINISTER FOR THE ENVIRONMENT BE ONE OF THOSE MINISTERS? WELL, I'M SURE THAT'LL BE ONE OF THE ISSUES UNDER ACTIVE CONSIDERATION. WHERE ARE YOU ON THAT? OH, NO, I'LL JUST TAIHOA. YOU KNOW, I LIVE IN A KIND OF DARWINIST WORLD, OK ` THAT IT'S THE BATTLE OF IDEAS, BUT I'M NOT GOING TO SPEAK PUBLICLY AGAINST THE INVOLVEMENT OF THE MINISTER, AND I'M NOT PUBLICLY GOING TO RETIRE MYSELF ` I'M GOING TO WAIT FOR THE SELECT COMMITTEE. - WHAT ABOUT SPEAKING PUBLICLY IN SUPPORT OF THE MINISTER? THE MOST IMPORTANT THING ABOUT THE FAST-TRACK LEGISLATION IS THE ONE-STOP SHOP. YOU COULD ARGUE THAT IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN BETTER OFF WITH A DIFFERENT NAME, BUT THE ONE-STOP SHOP CONCEPT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT FEATURE. BUT I DON'T THINK THAT ANYONE SHOULD DEPRECATE WHAT THE SENIOR MINISTER HAS SAID ABOUT THIS BILL, I.E., MR BISHOP, THAT SENSIBLE CHANGES WILL BE ENTERTAINED. - SO ONE OF THE COMPANIES INVITED TO APPLY FOR FAST-TRACK APPROVAL HAS A DIRECTOR WHOSE OTHER COMPANY DONATED MORE THAN $50,000 TO YOU AND NEW ZEALAND FIRST AT THE LAST ELECTION. WHAT DID HE EXPECT IN EXCHANGE FOR HIS DONATION? - I HAVE NO IDEA. THE PROCESS OF DEMOCRACY WORKS ` WE'RE ENTITLED AS PARTIES TO ATTRACT DONATIONS FROM VARIOUS DONORS. I HAVE NO VISIBILITY OVER THE ACTUAL LIST THAT THE TAPSELL COMMITTEE IS CONSIDERING. THAT'S BEEN RUN BY MR BISHOP'S OFFICE, BUT I THINK THERE'S A FIREWALL BETWEEN THE POLITICIANS AND THAT LIST. AND, LOOK, YOU KNOW, I WOULDN'T SORT OF MUDDY THE WATERS. AND JUST BECAUSE PEOPLE DONATE TO POLITICAL PARTIES, I DON'T THINK IT'S REASONABLE OR FAIR TO IMMEDIATELY LEAP TO A NEGATIVE CONCLUSION THAT SOMEHOW THEY'RE ILLEGALLY BUYING INFLUENCE. - WELL, IT'S REASONABLE OR FAIR TO ASK WHAT THEY WANT IN EXCHANGE FOR THEIR DONATIONS. - BUT YOU NEED TO ASK THEM. - WOULDN'T YOU KNOW? - WHY ON EARTH WOULD I KNOW WHAT ANY SPECIFIC DONOR WANTS OUT OF ME? - DO YOU KNOW ANDREW RITCHIE? - OF COURSE I KNOW ANDREW. - OH, OKAY. RIGHT. - OF COURSE I KNOW ANDREW. HE'S A FANTASTIC BUSINESSMAN, HIGHLY RESPECTED IN THE NORTH. - WELL, I'M SURE YOU APPRECIATE HIS TASTE IN POLITICAL PARTIES AS WELL. SOME OF THE PROJECTS INVITED TO APPLY FOR FAST-TRACK LEGISLATION HAVE PREVIOUSLY BEEN BLOCKED BY THE COURTS OVER ENVIRONMENTAL CONCERNS. - OH, YEAH. YEAH, YEAH. - HOW DO YOU THINK IT'S IN OUR CONSTITUTIONAL INTERESTS OR OUR DEMOCRATIC INTEREST TO HAVE POLITICIANS POTENTIALLY OVERRULING JUDICIAL DECISIONS? - YEAH, SO, PLEASE REPEAT WHAT I'M GOING TO SAY ` UNDER DAVID PARKER'S FAST-TRACK LEGISLATION, PEOPLE WHO HAVE PREVIOUSLY BEEN DENIED CAN BE CONSIDERED, AND I THINK THAT THERE'S A LOT OF SELECTIVE MORALITY. PEOPLE WERE TOLERATING DAVID PARKER'S FAST-TRACK LEGISLATION. - WELL, WE CAN ASK HIM ABOUT THAT AS WELL. SO MY QUESTION TO YOU IS HOW IS THAT IN OUR CONSTITUTIONAL INTERESTS, WHETHER IT'S DAVID PARKER'S OR THIS FAST-TRACK LEGISLATION? - FROM MY PERSPECTIVE, THIS IS A PROCESS WHERE THE PURPOSE OF THE BILL IS PRO-DEVELOPMENT. IT DOESN'T HIDE THAT. AND IF A PERSON WHO HAS SUFFERED A SETBACK, UNDER ANOTHER SET OF STATUTORY PROCESSES, WHERE THE PURPOSE OF THE BILL IS PRO-DEVELOPMENT. IT DOESN'T HIDE THAT. AND IF A PERSON WHO HAS SUFFERED A SETBACK, UNDER ANOTHER SET OF STATUTORY PROCESSES, HAS A GO UNDER THIS BILL, THAT PERSON IS CONSTITUTIONALLY ENTITLED TO DO SO. - I WANT TO ASK ABOUT FISHERIES. - I THOUGHT YOU WOULD. - WOULD YOU AGREE THAT IT'S INAPPROPRIATE FOR SOMEONE WHO HAS, ALONG WITH THEIR PARTY, RECEIVED TENS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS IN POLITICAL DONATIONS OVER THEIR POLITICAL CAREER FROM PEOPLE OR COMPANIES ASSOCIATED TO A PARTICULAR INDUSTRY, SHOULD THEN BE MADE THE MINISTER IN CHARGE OF REGULATING THAT INDUSTRY? - YEAH, YEAH. YOU WOULD AGREE? - NO. I THINK THAT THE NEW ZEALAND PUBLIC SHOULD BE INCREDIBLY REASSURED THAT AT LONG LAST, THERE'S A NEW ZEALAND POLITICIAN WHO'S AN EXPERT IN FISHERIES IS ACTUALLY THE MINISTER. - OVER YOUR YEARS IN POLITICS, YOU'VE RECEIVED THOUSANDS AND DONATIONS FROM FISHING COMPANIES. HOW DO I KNOW THAT YOU ARE ACTING IN THE INTEREST OF ALL NEW ZEALANDERS, AS OPPOSED TO THOSE COMPANIES? - WELL, I THINK BY FOCUSING ON THE GROWTH PRODUCTIVITY OF THE INDUSTRY, I'M ALWAYS ACTING IN THE INTEREST OF ALL KIWIS. THE MAJORITY, THOUGH, OF THE REGULATORY DECISIONS, THEY HAVE BEEN WELL DOWN THE FOOD CHAIN FROM MY OFFICE. MOST OF THEM ARE UNDERTAKEN BY THE PERMANENT STATE, OTHERWISE KNOWN AS THE CIVIL SERVICE, AND ALL OF THE SCIENTIFIC ANALYSIS DOESN'T TAKE PLACE BECAUSE I HAVE A PREFERENCE FOR A CERTAIN OUTCOME. THE QUOTA DECISIONS, WHILST THEY MIGHT BE AGREED TO OR DISAGREED TO BY THE MINISTER, I THINK KIWIS SHOULD HAVE CONFIDENCE ` FOR THE LAST 30 YEARS, THAT PROCESS HAS BEEN THE STANDARD MODEL. - THE KERMADEC OCEAN SANCTUARY? - OH, GOOD. I'M GLAD THAT'S GONE. - YEAH. WAS THAT IN THE INTEREST OF ALL NEW ZEALANDERS? - NO, IT WAS PUSHED BY FOREIGNERS. IT WAS PUSHED BY THE PEW FOUNDATION. WE'RE NOT HERE TO SUIT THE INTERESTS OF FOREIGNERS. PUSHED BY FORMER PRIME MINISTER JOHN KEY. IT GOES WELL BACK BEFORE, AND I DON'T WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE DECISION THAT JOHN KEY MADE AT THE UN AND ALL THAT SORT OF STUFF, BECAUSE THAT'S NOW HISTORICAL DETRITUS. THIS KAUPAPA, THIS ISSUE, WAS BROUGHT TO NEW ZEALAND BY FOREIGNERS, THE PEW FOUNDATION OUT OF AMERICA. DOES THAT MAKE IT A BAD THING? FOR ME, IT DOES. WHY? WE DON'T NEED WELL-HEELED NORTH-EASTERN AMERICAN GROUPS COMING DOWN, PRACTICING THE MORALITY THAT THEY'RE SEEKING TO OPPOSE US IN THEIR OWN COUNTRY. WELL, MAYBE WE DO NEED TO PROTECT OUR MARINE BIODIVERSITY, THOUGH. I THINK WE DO, AND THERE'S ALREADY A MARINE RESERVE UP THERE. AND IT WAS CREATED WITH THE ACQUIESCENCE OF THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN THE 1990S. SO ONE OF YOUR BIGGEST CAMPAIGN DONORS IN THIS ELECTION EXPLICITLY AND PUBLICLY OPPOSES CAMERAS ON FISHING BOATS. ONE OF YOUR FIRST MOVES AS MINISTER WAS TO ANNOUNCE A REVIEW OF CAMERAS ON BOATS. YES. WHY WAS THAT? WELL, SADLY, THE INDUSTRY HAVE NOW CHANGED THEIR TUNE, AND THEY FEEL THAT, ACTUALLY, IN ORDER FOR THEIR SOCIAL LICENCE TO BE EXPANDED, CAMERAS ON BOATS IS AN IMPORTANT FEATURE. WHY IS THAT SADLY? WELL, PERSONALLY, PRIOR TO TAKING ON THIS ROLE, I WAS ALWAYS OF THE VIEW THAT IT WAS AN IMPOSITION IN TERMS OF COST. THERE WAS SOME VAGUENESS AS TO WHAT WAS THE VALUE FOR FISHERIES MANAGEMENT OUTCOMES, AND MORE IMPORTANTLY, HOW DO YOU PROTECT THE PRIVACY OF THE INFORMATION, WHICH THEY'RE ENTITLED TO UNDER THE HUMAN RIGHTS ACT? SO WHEN YOU WHEN YOU CONSIDER THE INFORMATION THAT WE'VE GLEANED REGARDING FISHERIES, WHAT HAVE WE LEARNED FROM CAMERAS ON FISHING BOATS? I NOTE THAT MPI HAS JUST PUBLISHED ITS FIRST DATA ON FISHING BYCATCH SINCE THOSE CAMERAS WERE INTRODUCED. WHAT HAVE WE LEARNED? OH, WELL, OBVIOUSLY, IT'S PROVIDING A LOT MORE ACCURATE INFORMATION. ALTHOUGH THE MODELLING ON DOLPHINS AND SEALS AND OTHER CRITTERS WAS, BY AND LARGE, ACCURATE. BUT, LOOK, CAMERAS ARE HERE TO STAY. YEAH, NO, MY QUESTION WAS WHAT HAVE WE LEARNED? WELL, I'M IMAGINING THAT WHAT WE'RE SEEING IS UP-TO-DATE IMAGES, AS TO WHAT IS THE EFFECT OF VARIOUS FISHING PRACTICES ON THE LOCAL ECOSYSTEM. WHAT'S HAPPENED IS, SINCE THEY INTRODUCED CAMERAS ON BOATS, ALL OF A SUDDEN, ALL OF THE REPORTED BYCATCH HAS MASSIVELY INCREASED, WHICH IS VERY STRANGE. SO THERE'S BEEN A SEVEN-FOLD INCREASE IN REPORTED DOLPHIN CATCHES, A THREE-AND-A-HALF FOLD INCREASE IN ALBATROSS INTERACTIONS, A 46% INCREASE IN REPORTED FISH DISCARDS. WHY DO YOU THINK THAT'S HAPPENED? YEAH, BUT IT'S THE WILDLIFE INDUSTRY. YOU'RE ALWAYS GOING TO ENCOUNTER A FEW STRAY DOLPHINS AND A FEW BIRDS, AND CAMERAS IS GOING TO ENSURE THAT FISHING PRACTICES MINIMISE THOSE TYPES OF OUTCOMES. BUT YOU WERE SAYING THAT YOU DIDN'T THINK THAT WE'D LEARN ANYTHING FROM HAVING CAMERAS. WELL, I'VE CHANGED MY MIND NOW. OH, YOU HAVE? WELL, UNTIL SUCH TIME WE WORK OUT WHO'S GOING TO PAY FOR IT, HOW IS IT ENHANCING MANAGEMENT OUTCOMES, AND WHICH OBVIOUSLY IT IS. IT'S ENHANCING IT, AND NOW, IT'S LEAD TO A 46% INCREASE IN REPORTED FISH DISCARDS AND A 700% INCREASE IN REPORTED DOLPHIN CATCHES. NO, WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT FISH DISCARDS, WE'RE ACTUALLY DEALING WITH THAT PROBLEM THROUGH DISCARD POLICY, AND WE'RE GOING TO CHANGE THE REGULATIONS. THESE WEREN'T BEING REPORTED BEFORE. WE DIDN'T KNOW THIS ` WE DIDN'T HAVE THIS DATA BEFORE. CAMERAS ON BOATS, ALL OF A SUDDEN, FISHERIES WERE BEING A LITTLE MORE HONEST. YEAH, BUT, JACK, YOU'VE GOT TO LOOK THE FUTURE ` WE CAN'T SADDLE OURSELVES WITH APOCRYPHAL TALES FROM THE PAST. THAT'S NOT WHERE NEW ZEALAND'S FUTURE LIES. DO YOU SUPPORT THE HAURAKI GULF TIKAPA MOANA MARINE PROTECTION BILL? YES, THAT BILL HAS COME BACK. THERE'LL BE A FEW REFINEMENTS. THERE'S TWO AREAS WHERE WE NEED TO BE ABSOLUTELY SURE WE CAN CARRY THE PUBLIC; THE INTERACTION WITH THE SEABED AND FORESHORE CLAIMS, WHICH IS A MINOR ` RELATIVELY MINOR ` ISSUE. AND CAN WE CARRY THE PUBLIC WITH US THAT IN THESE PROTECTED AREAS, LIMITED TANGATA WHENUA FOOD GATHERING RIGHTS STILL SUBSIST. THERE'S TWO SCHOOLS OF THOUGHT. IRRESPECTIVE OF YOUR ETHNICITY, A RAHUI IS A RAHUI, AND IT'S PROBABLY WHERE I AM FROM, HOWEVER, I REALISE THAT UNDER THE FISHERIES SETTLEMENT, THERE WERE SOME GUARANTEES MADE ABOUT FOOD-GATHERING RIGHTS, BUT OTHER THAN THAT, I THINK THERE'S QUITE A LOT OF SUPPORT IN GENERAL FOR THAT BILL. SHANE JONES. IF YOU WANT TO CONTACT Q+A TEAM, PLEASE KORERO MAI. THESE ARE OUR MAIN PLATFORMS ` HIT US UP ON EMAIL, X OR FACEBOOK. UP NEXT.. TAURANGA RETURNS TO DEMOCRACY. THE CHARACTERS AND THE CAMPAIGNS FACING OFF TO LEAD ONE OF OUR BIGGEST CITIES. AFTER THE BREAK... FOR THE FIRST TIME IN ALMOST FIVE YEARS, THE PEOPLE OF TAURANGA WILL GET TO VOTE FOR A MAYOR AND COUNCILLORS, AFTER THEIR LAST ELECTED COUNCIL WAS REPLACED BY COMMISSIONERS. 86 CANDIDATES HAVE PUT THEIR HANDS UP FOR THE JOBS. REPORTER WHENA OWEN WENT TO SEE WHO'S UP FOR IT. (INSPIRATIONAL MUSIC) THE TIME HAS COME FOR THE PEOPLE OF TAURANGA. THEY HAVE A VOICE AGAIN. I'M LOOKING FORWARD TO DEMOCRACY. YEAH, DEFINITELY. YEAH. IT'S AMAZING FOR OUR LOCAL COMMUNITY TO FINALLY HAVE OUR SAY. BECAUSE WE'VE BEEN WAITING FOR THIS, HAVEN'T WE? YEAH. YOU'VE BEEN WAITING FOR THE ELECTION? FOR DEMOCRACY? YEAH, I HAVE. DO YOU SUPPORT TSUNAMI WARNING SYSTEMS ALONG THE COASTLINE? STANDING FOR MAYOR OF TAURANGA, 15 CANDIDATES, AMONG THEM CORPORATES, SMALL-BUSINESS OWNERS, A SINGER, TWO ENGINEERS, AN OLYMPIAN, A FORMER MAYOR, AND A RUGBY MASCOT. I'M HORI BOP, AND I'M STANDING AS MAYOR ` SOME WOULD SAY 'NIGHTMAYOR' FOR TAURANGA CITY COUNCIL. WE'VE HAD A FEW NIGHTMARES IN THE PAST. BOY, HAVE WE HAD SOME NIGHTMARES REPRESENTING THIS CITY. HE MAY BE REFERRING TO THE LAST ELECTED COUNCIL, DESCRIBED AS DYSFUNCTIONAL, DISMISSED BY THE GOVERNMENT IN 2021, AND REPLACED WITH COMMISSIONERS, LED BY ANNE TOLLEY. NOW IT'S BACK TO THE POLLS. BUT AMONG THOSE VYING FOR A PLACE ON COUNCIL ARE SIX CANDIDATES WHO WERE PART OF THE SACKED COUNCIL. TWO OF THEM WANT TO BE MAYOR. LOOK, GOOD ON THOSE OLD GUYS FOR PUTTING THEIR HANDS UP AGAIN. I WOULDN'T VOTE FOR THEM. ARE YOU ONE OF THE OLD GUYS WHO ANNE TOLLEY IS NOT GOING TO VOTE FOR? WELL, I'M AN OLDER GUY, BUT I'M NOT PART OF THAT PREVIOUS COUNCIL THAT WAS DISMISSED AND REPLACED WITH ANNE. OH, SO, YOU WERE A MAYOR, THOUGH, WEREN'T YOU? YES, I WAS, BEFORE THAT TIME. AND GREG BROWNLESS WANTS TO GIVE THE MAYORALTY ANOTHER GO. YES, ABSOLUTELY, I THINK WE NEED SOMEONE WITH SOME EXPERIENCE ON COUNCIL. DOWN ON THE WATERFRONT, WE MAY HAVE FOUND AN 'OLD GUY'. MAYORAL CANDIDATE JOHN ROBSON WAS ON THE LAST COUNCIL AND TWO OTHERS BEFORE THEN. IT TAKES A LOT TO OFFEND ME. THAT WASN'T OFFENSIVE. IT WAS IMPOLITIC. SHE'S CROSSED THE LINE, IN MY OPINION. SHE ABSOLUTELY CROSSED THE LINE. FORMER REGIONAL COUNCILLOR DOUG OWENS IS TAKING OFFENCE, EVEN THOUGH HE WASN'T IN THE DYSFUNCTIONAL COUNCIL. I THOUGHT SHE WAS REFERRING TO ME, AS WELL, ABSOLUTELY. THAT'S WHY I DID TAKE OFFENCE. THANK YOU. THANK YOU VERY MUCH. MAYORAL CANDIDATE TINA SALISBURY WAS ALSO PART OF THE LAST COUNCIL ` ITS DEPUTY MAYOR, IN FACT ` BUT DISTANCES HERSELF FROM THE TENSION. I DON'T CONSIDER MYSELF TO BE OLD OR A GUY, SO I DON'T CONSIDER MYSELF TO BE PART OF THE OLD GUARD. SHE SAYS WHEN THE COUNCIL WAS SACKED, LOCAL GOVERNMENT MINISTER NANAIA MAHUTA RANG HER. SHE WANTED ME TO KNOW THAT THEY KNEW THAT I WAS THERE, THAT I HAD WORKED HARD AND PROFESSIONALLY, AND THAT WAS THE KIND OF PERSON THAT THEY WOULD LIKE TO SEE MORE IN LOCAL GOVERNMENT. SO THIS IS MATAKANA. THAT'S RANGIWAI. THIS IS RIA HALL, SINGER, PRESENTER, MOTHER OF THREE, AND A LOCAL. AS LOCAL AS IT GETS. DNA-WISE, I COME FROM ALL OF THE IWI OF THIS PLACE. I WAS BORN AND BRED HERE. # JUDGE NOT BY MY SKIN COLOUR. # JUST NOT BY ONE'S CREED. BUILDING ON HER MUSICAL PROFILE, SHE'S ONE OF THE NEW FACES GOING FOR TAURANGA'S TOP JOB. DEFINITELY A FRESH PERSPECTIVE AND A FRESH OUTLOOK ON THINGS. I'VE GOT EXTENSIVE GOVERNANCE EXPERIENCE. I STUDIED POLITICAL SCIENCE AT UNIVERSITY. I'M COMPLETING MY MASTERS OF REGIONAL DEVELOPMENT THROUGH THE UNIVERSITY OF AUCKLAND. SO ALL ROADS LEAD TO THIS. TRAFFIC CONGESTION, HOUSING SHORTAGES, DEBT, RAPID POPULATION GROWTH, INFRASTRUCTURE ` THE INCOMING COUNCIL WILL FACE SOME SIZEABLE CHALLENGES. AS AN ENGINEER, CAMBRIDGE-EDUCATED TIM MALTBY THINKS HE COULD BE A HANDY MAYOR. I COULD BE VERY USEFUL. THAT'S WHY I'M STANDING. BECAUSE I THINK THE COUNCIL NEEDS SOME ENGINEERING INPUT. TUESDAY NIGHT ` THE MAYORAL CANDIDATES, MINUS A FEW, ARE FACING THE VOTERS AT TWO PUBLIC MEETINGS. FIRST, A MEETING HOSTED BY THE UNIONS. AS YOU CAN SEE, I'M NOT THE YOUNGEST OF THE GROUP. I SHOULD BE AT HOME WITH MY GREAT-GRANDCHILDREN. BUT MAYORAL CANDIDATE CHUDLEIGH HAGGETT INSISTS THE CITY NEEDS HIS COMMON SENSE. GOLD MEDALLIST MAHE DRYSDALE HAS TURNED UP AT THE NEXT MEETING, HOSTED BY THE RATEPAYERS ASSOCIATION IN MT MAUNGANUI ` A CHANCE, PERHAPS, TO GET TO THE BOTTOM OF SOME PERSISTENT RUMOURS. THERE ARE RUMOURS OUT THERE, AND A LOT OF SPEAKING ABOUT... A GROUP CALLED THE UTF, WHICH IS A GROUP OF DEVELOPERS WHO ARE STANDING CANDIDATES IN EACH WARD, I UNDERSTAND. UNDOUBTEDLY, THEY'VE TAPPED THE SHOULDER OF MAHE DRYSDALE. THEY HAVE A TEAM, IF YOU LIKE, THAT THEY'RE QUIETLY BACKING. IF THAT'S TRUE, THERE'S THE POTENTIAL FOR ANOTHER DIVISIVE COUNCIL, WHICH WOULD BE A GREAT DISAPPOINTMENT TO THE CITY, IF THAT HAPPENED. THE UTF IS THE URBAN TASK FORCE, WHICH LOBBIED TO EXTEND THE DURATION OF THE COMMISSIONERS. THIS IS ITS HEAD, SCOTT ADAMS, IN 2022. WE HAVE TO MAKE SURE THAT WHEN WE DO RETURN TO LOCAL BODY ELECTIONS, THAT THE RIGHT CANDIDATES COME FORWARD. BEARING IN MIND THAT BACKING CANDIDATES IS NOT A BREACH OF THE RULES, WE PHONED SCOTT ADAMS TO CLARIFY HIS CONNECTION. HE TOLD US THAT EARLIER THIS YEAR HE SUGGESTED TO MAHE DRYSDALE THAT HE STAND FOR MAYOR BUT INSISTED HE IS STANDING AS AN INDEPENDENT. THERE'S BEEN ALL SORTS OF RUMOURS GOING AROUND. IS THAT TRUE, THOUGH? I'M ABSOLUTELY INDEPENDENT. SO, SCOTT ADAMS IS A FRIEND OF MINE. HE WAS THE FIRST PERSON TO ASK ME WHETHER I WOULD CONSIDER RUNNING FOR MAYOR. SO HE DID SHOULDER-TAP YOU? HE ASKED ME, AND THEN, SINCE THEN, I MADE THE DECISION ON MY OWN, AND HAVE HAVE GONE ON TO DECIDE TO DO THIS. MAHE'S CAMPAIGN MANAGER IS TIM HURDLE, FORMER CAMPAIGN MANAGER FOR THE NATIONAL PARTY AND THE AUCKLAND MAYOR. AND AS WE KNOW, HE DID A VERY GOOD JOB THERE IN AUCKLAND. GETTING WAYNE BROWN IN THERE. GETTING WAYNE BROWN IN. AS MAYOR, THE LATE BOB OWENS LEFT HIS MARK ON THE CITY. MAHE DRYSDALE IS HIS GRANDSON. BUT ONE OF SIR BOB'S OWN SONS ` THAT'S DOUG OWENS ` IS ALSO A MAYORALTY CONTENDER. SO IT COULD COME DOWN TO UNCLE AND NEPHEW, COULDN'T IT, THIS RACE? YEAH, IT COULD DO. YEAH. OH, THERE'S NO FAMILY FEUD. BUT HE'S WELL AWARE OF HIS NEPHEW'S CELEBRITY ADVANTAGE. THEN, OF COURSE, THE INTERVIEW WITH MAHE, THE GREAT WHITE HOPE. BACK TO BUSINESS, AND DOUG OWENS SAYS THIS RACE COURSE IS ONE OF THE GREEN PUBLIC SPACES BEING EYED UP BY DEVELOPERS. IF HE WAS MAYOR, HE WOULD BE REVISING THE LONG-TERM PLAN WHICH WILL BE HANDED TO THE NEW COUNCIL. I KNOW HOW IT WORKS, AND I'M GOING TO GET TO THE BOTTOM OF THE ISSUES THAT ARE CONFRONTING OUR RATEPAYERS. I DON'T LIKE YOUR CHANCES OF MEETING ANYONE DOWN HERE. IT'S PRETTY DESERTED, ISN'T IT? IT'S HARD TO CAMPAIGN WHEN THERE ARE NO PEOPLE. ENTER NEW MAYORAL CANDIDATE PHYSIOTHERAPIST ANDREW CAIE. HE'S FOCUSED ON REVIVING THE CBD. IT'S JUST AN ABSOLUTE WASTE OF SPACE FOR OUR CITY, A WASTE OF LIFE FOR OUR CITY. AND I THINK IT'S A LOT OF THE REASON WHY YOUNG PEOPLE DON'T SEE A FUTURE HERE. THE TAURANGA VOTERS WILL KNOW WHO THEIR ELECTED MAYOR AND COUNCIL WILL BE ON THE AFTERNOON OF JULY 20th. BUT THAT MEANS TAURANGA WILL BE OUT OF KILTER WITH THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT ELECTION CYCLE. SO WHOEVER BECOMES MAYOR WILL LEAD A COUNCIL FOR A FOUR-YEAR TERM UNTIL 2028, AND THEN THEY'LL BE IN SYNC WITH THE OTHER COUNCILS AROUND THE COUNTRY. DO YOU THINK THERE ARE FEW PEOPLE IN THERE WHO COULD BE MAYOR? MAYBE ONE OR TWO. (LAUGHS) I JUST HOPE PEOPLE VOTE. I REALLY DO. I JUST WANT THEM TO GET OUT AND VOTE, AND VOTE FOR THE PEOPLE THAT THEY WANT. AFTER THE BREAK... CAN JOE BIDEN HOLD ON TO THE DEMOCRATIC NOMINATION? AND.. WE'RE LIVE IN PARIS AS A FAR RIGHT PARTY TESTS THE DEPTHS OF ITS SUPPORT. VOTERS IN FRANCE ARE PREPARING TO HIT THE POLLS IN WHAT IS SHAPING UP AS AN HISTORIC ELECTION. 1 NEWS EUROPE CORRESPONDENT MEI HERON IS LIVE IN PARIS FOR US. KIA ORA, MEI. EXPLAIN HOW THIS RUN-OFF ELECTION WILL WORK. IT IS WORTH EXPLAINING IT, BECAUSE IT IS SO DIFFERENT TO THE NEW ZEALAND SYSTEM. WHO THE FRENCH PEOPLE ARE VOTING FOR HERE IS NOT THE PRESIDENT, IT IS TO SEE WHO WILL BECOME THE PRIME MINISTER, AND WHO WILL RUN THE GOVERNMENT. THEY HAVE A TWO-ROUND VOTING SYSTEM. IF THE PARTY GOT 12% LAST WEEK, YOU MOVED TO THE SECOND ROUND IN TWO DAYS, WHEN WE GET TO SEE WHO WILL ACTUALLY BECOME THE POWER, YOU NEED A MAJORITY, AND IF YOU CAN MANAGE THAT, YOU FORM A GOVERNMENT AND BECOME PRIME MINISTER. IT WAS SURPRISED THAT EMANUEL MACRON CALLED THE SELECTION, THIS ELECTION, AND A LOT OF INTEREST TO SEE HOW THE NATIONAL RALLY, FORMERLY THE NATIONAL FRONT GOES IN THIS ELECTION. GIVE US THE SENTIMENT ON THE GROUND. PEOPLE ARE FEELING NERVOUS ABOUT THE OUTCOME, BECAUSE IT COULD GO SEVERAL WAYS. IT COULD BE MARINE LE PEN, OR IT COULD END UP IN A HUNG PARLIAMENT. THIS IS THE CALM BEFORE THE STORM, THE FINAL BREATH BEFORE WE FIND OUT THE RESULTS. I WAS STANDING AROUND THE CORNER, TALKING TO PEOPLE. YOU COULD SENSE THE UNCERTAINTY. I DON'T THINK THERE WILL BE A WINNER. I THINK WE ARE IN A SITUATION... WITHOUT A LEADER. I DUNNO, I JUST THINK FRENCH PEOPLE ARE QUITE ANGRY IN GENERAL, AND THIS ESPECIALLY, ON BOTH SIDES, PEOPLE ARE QUITE UPSET. SO WHATEVER DIRECTION THIS GOES ON, I THINK PEOPLE WILL NOT BE THRILLED. WHY DO YOU THINK SO MANY PEOPLE LIKE LE PEN'S PARTY? I CAN'T REALLY SPEAK MY MIND LIKE THAT ON TV. (LAUGHS) AUTHORITIES ARE WORRIED ABOUT THINGS KICKING OFF HERE. YOU CAN SEE MORE SECURITY AROUND. THERE ARE ROADS BLOCKED OFF, MORE POLICE AROUND. 30,000 MORE POLICE OFFICERS HAVE BEEN DEPLOYED ACROSS FRANCE. 5000 HERE IN PARIS. IT COULD GET MESSY. TALK TO US ABOUT THE NATIONAL RALLY. WHAT IS DRIVING THAT PARTY'S MOMENTUM? THE NATIONAL RALLY PARTY IS QUITE AN OLD PARTY. IT HAS ROOTS IN ANTI-SEMITIC IDEOLOGY. IT WAS STARTED BY MARINE LE PEN'S FATHER. SHE CHANGED THE RHETORIC, GAVE IT A NEW NAME, MADE IT MORE PALATABLE. SINCE THEN, IT HAS BEEN ON THE RISE. IT IS APPEALING TO PEOPLE ON THE MARGINS, BECAUSE IT PLEDGES TO PUT FRENCH PEOPLE FIRST. BASICALLY ANTI-IMMIGRATION. AND WANTS TO PUT FRENCH PEOPLE AHEAD OF THE QUEUE IN JOBS AND WELFARE AND HOUSING. AND IT SPEAKS TO PEOPLE WHO ARE IN THE LOWER SOCIO-ECONOMIC AREAS, BUT ALSO YOUNGER PEOPLE, WHO BELIEVE THEY HAVE BEEN FORGOTTEN BY THIS GOVERNMENT, ESPECIALLY MACRON. BARDELLA IS LIKELY TO BECOME PRIME MINISTER. HE IS ANOTHER REASON WHY THIS PARTY IS POPULAR. HE IS 28, A TIKTOK STAR, 1.6 MILLION FOLLOWERS. HE IS SLICK AND SEEMS TO KNOW WHAT HE IS TALKING ABOUT. HE GREW UP IN THE SUBURBS, WHERE HE SAYS HE SAW A PROBLEM WITH IMMIGRATION, WHICH IS ONE OF THE BEDROCK OF THEIR CAMPAIGN. A HUGE FEW DAYS IN WESTERN EUROPEAN POLITICS. WE CAN STILL CALL THE UK WESTERN EUROPE, FOR THE SAKE OF THIS CONVERSATION. HOW WAS LABOUR'S VICTORY IN THE UK BEING RECEIVED? STARMER WAS ANTI-BREXIT. HE WANTED TO STAY. YOU CAN SEE HAS GOVERNMENT BRING THE UK CLOSER TO THE EU. YOU ARE ALREADY HEARING SOME OF THAT WITH REACTIONS FROM EUROPEAN LEADERS, TALKING ABOUT A RESET IN RELATIONS. IT IS FUNNY TO THINK HOW QUICKLY TIMES CAN CHANGE. SEVEN YEARS AGO WE WERE TALKING ABOUT WHAT A MESS THE UK WAS. BREXIT, BORIS JOHNSON, LIZ TRUSS. NOW, WITH STARMER, THE UK IS BEING SEEN AS MORE STABLE. IT IS A DIFFERENCE FROM OTHER COUNTRIES LIKE FRANCE. THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME. GOOD LUCK FOR YOUR REPORTING. JOE BIDEN IS VOWING TO FIGHT ON AS THE DEMOCRATS NOMINEE FOR PRESIDENT, AGREEING TO A HIGH-PROFILE PRIMETIME TV INTERVIEW TO TRY AND QUELL CRITICISMS THAT'S HE NOT UP TO THE JOB. 1 NEWS U.S CORRESPONDENT LOGAN CHURCH HAS BEEN PLOTTING THE FALLOUT THIS MORNING, AND IS WITH US LIVE. HOW HAS THE INTERVIEW BEEN RECEIVED? BEFORE THE INTERVIEW THERE WERE TWO CAMPS AMONG DEMOCRATS, THOSE WHO WANTED BIDEN TO STAY, AND THOSE WHO WANTED HIM TO GO. THIS INTERVIEW WAS SUPPOSED TO SHOW AMERICA AND THE WORLD THAT 81, JOE BIDEN STILL HAS IT. THERE WERE TWO QUESTIONS THEY WANTED TO PROVIDE CONTEXT TO. THE FIRST AND MOST IMPORTANT WAS WHAT ON EARTH HAPPENED ON THAT DEBATE STAGE WHICH LED TO SUCH A DISASTROUS PERFORMANCE THAT ONE COMMENTATOR SAID IT WAS THE WORST PERFORMANCE HE HAS SEEN SINCE THE INVENTION OF TELEVISION. WAS THIS A BAD EPISODE OR THE SIGN OF A MORE SERIOUS CONDITION? IT WAS A BAD EPISODE. NO INDICATION OF ANY SERIOUS CONDITION. I WAS EXHAUSTED. THEY DID A TEST TO SEE WHETHER OR NOT I HAD SOME INFECTION ` YOU KNOW, A VIRUS ` I DIDN'T. I JUST HAD A REALLY BAD COLD. EIGHT IN THE INTERVIEW, HE SAID NO TO DOING A COGNITIVE TEST. THE SECOND QUESTION HAS CAMPAIGN WANTED TO ANSWER WAS WHETHER HE WOULD STAY FIGHTING OR BOW OUT. HE SAID NO, I AM STAYING IN. HE BELIEVES HE IS THE ONLY MAN QUALIFIED ENOUGH TO BEAT DONALD TRUMP. WHERE DOES THIS INTERVIEW LEAVE JOE BIDEN'S CAMPAIGN? POTENTIALLY, WITH BIG PROBLEMS. THOSE TWO CAMPS I MENTIONED EARLIER, THEY ARE STILL THERE POST TO THE INTERVIEW. THE PERFORMANCE DURING THE INTERVIEW WAS BETTER THAN THE DEBATE, ALTHOUGH THAT IS A REALLY LOW BAR. THE INTERVIEW ITSELF WASN'T MUCH OF A FIRECRACKER. JOE BIDEN HAS A COUPLE OF PROBLEMS. THERE ARE FACTIONS WITHIN HIS PARTY WHO ARE SLOWLY, BEHIND CLOSED DOORS, CALLING FOR HIM TO STEP ASIDE. MARK WARNER GATHERED A GROUP OF SENATORS TO ASK JOE BIDEN TO MOVE ASIDE FOR A YOUNGER CANDIDATE. IT IS WORTH SAYING SOME BIG-NAME DEMOCRATS LIKE NANCY PELOSI, HARRIS, THEY BACKED JOE BIDEN. THE VOTING PUBLIC, SINCE THE DEBATE, BIDEN HAS BEEN HITTING THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL HARD, AND HAS CAMPAIGN WANT PEOPLE TO LISTEN TO HIM, HIS PLANS, HIS IDEAS. INSTEAD, WHAT IS HAPPENING IS EVERYONE IS MORE FOCUSED ON WHETHER HE CAN MAKE IT UP THE STAIRS AND ACROSS THE STAGE TO DELIVER REMARKS. IT IS PROVING A BIG DISTRACTION. IT IS IMPORTANT TO NOTE, THE GUY WHO WAS LOVING THIS THE MOST IS DONALD TRUMP. DESPITE BEING A PROVEN LIAR, FRAUDSTER, HE IS STILL WINNING. THE DEMOCRATS ARE TERRIFIED THAT HE WILL TAKE OUT THE PRESIDENCY IN NOVEMBER. SO YOU KNOW, AS WELL AS WATCHING OUR SHOW ON TVNZ+, YOU CAN ALSO FIND ALL OF OUR INTERVIEWS ON YOUTUBE. JUST SEARCH 'NZQandA' AND WE'LL POP RIGHT UP. HEI AKUANEI ` WE'RE BACK AFTER THE BREAK. KUA MUTU. THAT'S Q+A FOR THIS WEEK. FROM THE Q+A TEAM, THANKS FOR WATCHING AND NGA MIHI KI A KOUTOU I NGA KARERE ` THANKS FOR YOUR FEEDBACK. HEI TERA WIKI. SEE YOU NEXT SUNDAY AT 9AM. CAPTIONS BY FAITH HAMBLYN, BRIGIT KELLY AND JAMES BROWN. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ COPYRIGHT ABLE 2024