ka tiariaria, ka tuarehu matarua i te anganga. Kapua tairangi ka oti atu. Haumi e, hui e, taiki e. This week, on The Hui ` breaking free from the benefit. - The way we measure success is to have 50,000 fewer people on the Jobseeker benefit by 2030. - But does the government's Jobseeker scheme really help those looking for mahi? - The struggle is real. You're always worrying if you're gonna be able to pay your rent. - Plus ` a studio discussion about the cost-of-living challenges made even harder by government funding cuts. Captions were made with the support of NZ On Air. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2024. Nga manu whititua kua wehe ki roto i nga iwi nga mate o te wa. Haere mai, haere. Tatou kei te pito ora tihewa mauriora, and welcome back to The Hui. Maori unemployment has jumped to 8.2%, a four-year high. The latest stats show it's rising four times as quickly as the national rate, and Maori are disproportionately represented among those on a Jobseeker benefit ` that's a weekly payment that supports whanau who can't work or who are looking for mahi. The Ministry of Social Development partners with several horticultural businesses around the country to offer kaimahi a taste of getting work, but some kaimahi working in those roles say seasonal work isn't necessarily the answer to getting whanau off state dependence. Mea nei te purongo a Ruwani Perera. Fruit picking ` a go-to job for summer students, international backpackers, Pacific workers, and one way of breaking free from the benefit. But is it? The government is laser focussed on reducing the number of unemployed dependent on welfare. - The way we measure success is to have 50,000 fewer people on the Jobseeker benefit by 2030. - But is the government's Jobseeker scheme providing stable, consistent work for kaimahi? - The struggle is real ` you're always worrying if you're gonna be able to pay your rent. - Kainui Pack & Coolstore is a family-owned kiwifruit and citrus orchard business in Kerikeri. - Every local person who wants a job can get one in the horticultural industry. There are plenty of people who like working in the packhouse. We have a lot of returnees every season for the kiwifruit season. - Like many horticultural businesses, Kainui partners with the government, to employ locals on a benefit looking for work to get off the benefit. Kainui owner Alan Thompson employs 220 staff. Around 50 of those are from Jobseeker's Seasonal Work Scheme ` a stepping stone into long-term employment. - Every year, we get people who stand out as really being keen, and they stay on. Quite a few of them started through coming from MSD years ago, and some of them are now, you know, managers of parts of the area. - Almost 200,000 people are on a Jobseeker benefit ` more than half are work ready. Former painting contractor Wade Raika is one of them. - There aren't that many painting companies out there, so the workers that are in them, they're all employed. - Wade worked for three seasons on Kerikeri orchards, including Kainui, after his painting work dried up. - My very first season was with Kainui, and they were good in all respects. - But in the horticultural industry, hours of work are uncertain and can be changed at short notice. - There is no work when it's wet out here ` you can't pick in the rain; yeah, you can't do much. - If bad weather on the day stops work, wages are topped up by WINZ, but if the production process is disrupted for any other reason, lost work days are not compensated. - That's the nature of the business. It's been like that forever, really. It's a seasonal job. Our philosophy is Kiwis first, but we have people who have worked in the packhouse, we offer them work in the orchards, and they're not that interested, to be fair. - Today recruits from Vanuatu are pruning kiwifruit vines to get ready for next season ` employed because there are not enough New Zealand workers. - We have all these people on the list ` we ring them, and half of them have gone somewhere else. - Most orchards pay $25 an hour, just above minimum wage, but Wade says the uncertainty of hours he might actually work makes budgeting tough. - Hours are very sporadic. I mean, sometimes you get up to maybe three days a week where you get full days, but there's also those days during the week ` it might be two days in the week where you get half a day. - Wade wants to get off the benefit completely, but he says orchard work can't help him do that. - They put us into work, what, to go back to them and ask them for assistance. How does that work? Doesn't. - What do you think about the Jobseeker support, being unstable with the hours, and people can't make it work financially? - Well, that's a difficult one. Each individual is in a different situation. The people that want work and want full-time work get full-time work. The level of absenteeism is a real big problem. I think it's people's individual circumstances that dictate how available they are to work. When we actually try and offer more hours, a lot of people don't want it. I'm not sure whether that's to do with the Jobseeker scheme ` we have people who didn't miss a day this year, and that's the opposite end of the spectrum. - Horticulture is a $7 billion industry here, with growers paid record prices for their fruit. - The orchard industry is a massive industry that makes a huge profit. - Green Party's Employment Spokesperson, Ricardo Menendez March, says placing people in seasonal work can put whanau at greater financial risk. - We take those brands overseas to sell them, and I think most people would be surprised that the people that prop up those industries are receiving wages below the median wage, insecure hours, and are not adequately supported by Work and Income. They may find themselves in hardship, needing to get into debt just to make ends meet. We've gotta do the work to ensure that the industry pays liveable wages, rather than precarious insecure hours that do not guarantee people will actually be earning enough while they're in work. - $25 at 30 hours is only just, sort of, cutting the mustard ` most rents and that these days consist 500, 600 bucks a week. And you've got families in there, you know, having to pay that before they even get their food and pay for their other amenities. - Wade wants government to recognise that seasonal work won't get people off a Jobseeker benefit long-term. - It's not just me that's affected by it ` I mean, there are a hundred-plus people that are in these companies on a daily basis, you know, with kids and families, know, and they all struggle. They all struggle. - We need better support to actually connect people with jobs that match their skills and aspirations. - Can't do without them, and we appreciate what they do for us, but we also appreciate the system is not perfect for anybody. - E ao te korero. After the break ` our panel of experts joins us in the studio. We have Professor Tahu Kukutai, Tony Kake, and Helen Robinson are next on The Hui. (DYNAMIC MUSIC) He hui toko i te ora te haere ake nei e te iwi. How do we tackle the growing cost-of-living crisis in New Zealand, particularly for Maori feeling the brutal bite of increasing cost demands? We have with us in studio now Papakura Marae CEO Tony Kake. Tena koe, Tony; and also joining us is Ahorangi Professor Tahu Kukutai from the University of Waikato ` te Ahorangi, tena koe. Nau mai. - Tena koe. - And we'll also have with us, throughout the discussion, the manutaki of the Auckland City Mission, Helen Robinson. Right. Let's get into it. Tony, how bad are things now? - Oh, kia ora. Uh, look, um, we've seen an increasing, uh, demand on kai, seen an increasing struggle with the cost of living, cost of housing, in Tamaki Makaurau specifically. So we are out at Papakura Marae, uh, are witnessing this every day. - What's the impact of that on the services that you provide? Obviously growing demand, right? - Yeah. Yeah, it is. And, you know, it just means that we have to try and do more with our whanau, just to survive ` there are whanau are in a survival... many of our whanau, this is not all of them, but a good majority of our whanau in survival mode. I'll give you an example ` like, 57% of the whanau that, uh, come to the marae every day for kai, uh, 57% are Maori. All right? You'll find another 22% are European, so... and another 18% are Pasifika. And so it's widespread across all cultures. But, you know, alarmingly, the whanau that we see, a majority are Maori. - Well, you said 57%, so over half of those seeking support and assistance from the marae are Maori. - Yeah. Well, that's just with kai. - Wow. - It's just with kai. - So what are the other demands at the moment? - Oh, housing support. There's just navigating the whole system, navigating the different government departments that are in their lives, you know, pathways to employment ` needing employment ` needing the skills, the, uh,... to get into employment, so.... But the number one issue that's really facing our whanau in Papakura around in Tamaki Makaurau is the cost of housing, and some of our whanau are really struggling ` you know, their outgoings, their housing outgoings are, you know, up around 50%, 60%, and that's just not sustainable. - OK, I will bring in the Ahorangi soon, but we're just gonna go to Australia, cos Helen Robinson, the manutaki of Auckland City Mission, is joining us now from Australia. Helen, tena koe, and welcome to the programme. Thank you for joining us. Are you seeing the same types of things, Helen ` are you seeing the same types of demands for service and assistance in your mahi? We've just lost it, but we'll come back to her, hopefully soon, in Australia. Let's come to you, Ahorangi. This is interesting, eh. Um, Ahorangi, these current trends, and given that we've seen the census results, right? So Tony said 57% of Maori looking for housing, and this is just for kai, one in five Maori in Aotearoa, one in three Maori under 25 ` these are massive issues that we have to deal with, right? - They're huge issues. And, you know, the evidence is so clear ` it's so crystal clear that any time we are in a period of economic crisis, the people who pay the price the most is Maori. And, you know, whether that's the late 1980s, whether that was a GFC, you know, whether it's the current situation that we are in now, tangata Maori, whanau Maori are the ones who are most adversely impacted... - Mm. - ...time and time and time again. So there's nothing particularly new about this ` this is an old story playing out in new ways. I mean, probably what is different now is that with the cost-of-living crisis is that housing costs are completely out of control. - Mm. - And, you know, that human right, to have a roof over your head, to be warm, to be dry ` you know, just basic, fundamental human rights, far too many of our whanau don't have that. - And I'm gonna ask you to forecast a bit, right? But given that we've seen the increase in Maori population, these are issues that we have to think about dealing with in the long term, and if we don't get these social policy settings right, this is gonna be an ongoing issue. In fact, it will be worse in the next generation or two, won't it, Ahorangi? - Oh, 100%, and here's the thing. You know, we, um... we know so much about the situations that our whanau are in, but what we talk about less is the huge opportunity costs and the huge waste of our youthful population, you know, and a wider Aotearoa population that is ageing, that has sub-replacement fertility, where the proportion of the Maori population is increasing, where our tamariki are gonna be the future engine of the national economy` - Not just Maori economy ` National. - No, I'm not` Yeah, Maori economy; I'm talking about national economy and regional economies. - Yeah. - You look in Gisborne, 80% of tamariki there are soon gonna be Maori. The regional economy depends on investment in our tamariki, and so, you know, if you were to ask me the question, what does our social policy of the future require? It requires ` whatever the mix of policies are ` it means expanding the opportunities for our tamariki, whatever that takes, otherwise we're gonna waste our demographic opportunity. - Yeah. I do wanna pick up on that further later on in the conversation. Tony, one of the things that's become evident, obviously, is also the fact that it puts a lot of strain on marae ` Papakura Marae ` those that are working and providing service and assistance to whanau. There's only so much marae can do and provide. I mean, you must be fully stretched now. - Yeah, yeah. It's not an easy day at the marae any day. So, you know, every day we strive to do what we can, you know, within the means that are before us. But to be fair, you know, we need to be working smarter. And I invite government, I invite the purse holders to work with us in developing that strategy, that pathway forward. Um, you know, we've had some things that we've introduced, uh, over the last year or so around co-location, for example, and this is getting the government departments to be sighted on the marae. You know, I don't have their budgets, but the next best thing is to have them on site and to be working with them to, kind of, create something. We've got Work and Income on site, we've got Kainga Ora on site, we've got, um... we've got Oranga Tamariki ` some of the big hitters that our whanau Maori, uh, need to engage with. So I feel that, you know, at the marae, you balance that whole power game, that control game ` they're treated like whanau, they're treated like they're welcomed to the marae. You have a kai and a cup of tea, kai and korero. It's our kai and care package. - But that's an approach that the marae has adopted, right? To give it greater access to our whanau. Not so much from the Crown, not so much from the government's obligation side ` this is you driving that, right? - We're driving. There's a few of us in Tamaki Makaurau that, you know, this isn't a new thing ` we've started this about two, three years ago, but the co-location opportunity, and some of us in our taumata korero, this is a group of Maori organisations, throughout Tamaki Makaurau, we've applied this approach because, you know, it's about partnerships and working relationships, and we feel with them onsite with us at the marae, one plus one equals a hundred every day. - Yeah. Um, Ahorangi, you talked about the need for future policy settings, to really address the lack of opportunity or actually the loss of opportunities that we have. But what does that look like, do you think, going forward? Because these are issues that have always plagued us, and yet we're still in the situation we're in now ` what do you think that looks like, in terms of future social policy settings? - Yeah. Yeah, no, there's a couple of things. I mean, I think just to tautoko and acknowledge what Tony's been talking about, you know, in terms of a more decentralised and devolved, um, approach to policymaking ` you know, I think there's still a huge amount of arrogance, um, that a top-down policymaking approach is the one that's gonna work, and we've just seen time and time and again, it actually fails. And we have, you know, people in communities who are doing evidence-based, future-focussed, um, multiple-strand approaches to policy, working alongside our whanau, that actually work, and for a whole bunch of reasons, it actually makes sense to pivot and do that. Um, but often it's pretty hard for our communities, people like Tony, to actually get resourced, in a sustainable way, to continue doing the good things that they do, and then to scale that up and away, so that more whanau can actually be helped. So I think, you know, that devolution trajectory is a really important one. It does require the kawanatanga to share power, and, you know, that's always been a bit of a sticking point. - I do wanna talk about this more after the break, about what specifically that might look like and whether or not there's trust and confidence that that decentralised approach will actually occur. We're gonna talk about that after the break and hopefully be joined by Helen Robinson, who's in Australia. Kia u tonu mai e te iwi ` we have more after this. (DYNAMIC MUSIC) (DYNAMIC MUSIC) Hoki mai ano e hoa ma. Welcome back to The Hui. We have our panel of experts talking cost of living ` Papakura Marae CEO Tony Kake, University of Waikato Professor Tahu Kukutai and CEO of Auckland City Mission, the manutaki, Helen Robinson is joining us live from Australia now, so let's cross to her. Helen, tena koe. - Kia ora. - Kia ora e hoa. Good to have you with us. So, we've got a bit of the ground that has been painted, the flax roots that has been painted within the community from Tony ` I wanna talk about strategy going forward, if that's all right, Helen. What do you see as an important strategy to deal with the cost-of-living crisis ` not just now, but going forward ` what needs to happen, in your view? - I just really want to join with my panellists and just acknowledge first that the current situation is untenable. It has been for many years, and they have beautifully spoken about, uh, the impact of poverty and, particularly the flag that I really want to fly today is about food and food insecurity, so what actually happens to our whanau when we don't have enough food and we don't have a security around accessing that food? And Tony spoke beautifully about his experience at Papakura, and at the mission, we also supporter and partnership with Manurewa Marae and Nga Whare Waatea Marae in Mangere and our own site in Central City, Auckland. And every year, between the four of us, we are distributing over 50,000 food parcels. So every one of those feeding a family of four for three meals, for four days. So our children, our tamariki, our whanau are hungry, and they are starving. - Mm. - And there is a moment in time, I think, that we have before us, where all of us, as a country, can actually stand up and say, enough, stop. Now is a time where we can go forward, and there are many, many different pathways that need to occur. And Tahu has explained to some of them beautifully, from my point of view. - And hopefully we've still got you there, Helen, and if not, I'll come back to our other panellists here, but what specifically is the measure that will change to accrue greater outcomes for kai for all of our communities in Aotearoa ` what do you want to happen? What needs to happen next? - I want New Zealand to stand up. I want those who know about it to speak up, and I want those who don't know about it to actually come to understand the reality and wake up. We need to sit at a collective table, particularly with iwi and hapu, and to actually say what needs to happen for New Zealand to have a food-secure nation, so all of us and our children, particularly, can be fed, deep into the future? And that does begin with both our country, and then with government. And I think particularly bringing together a cross-ministerial working group to really look at how do we create a plan for kai for our country. - OK. Tony, I think the word, the phrase that I have heard you use is food sovereignty. What is that ` what does that mean? - So, food sovereignty, to me, is more than just kai. We need to look at the barriers that prevent people from having enough kai. So sovereignty in terms of their mana motuhake, over, 'I have the basics and the essentials, 'like affordable housing' ` ensuring that they have, actually, you said it before, you know, it's the basics, like a roof over your head, a warm place to live, and kai on the table. Now, how do we get there? We need to address the housing issues. We need to ensure that the benefits that people are receiving are adequate enough to, kind of... so that the basics, the fundamentals in life are being achieved, being received. - What's required to, I think, address some of this ` and Helen talked about cross-ministerial parties and working groups, right? That requires trust and confidence from the government, to allow decentralisation of its current bureaucracy and to talk about things like mana motuhake. Do you honestly believe that can be done with this current government? - Well, with any government, I want to put the message out there that, you know, rather than, kind of, creating policy down in Wellington, come and talk to us ` come talk to us at the grassroots. Get us involved. You know, I can write policy. I can help them and develop that and shape up that policy. So stop doing it in your crystal ball or, you know, protected behind the walls. - OK. I hate to interrupt. Has that happened yet ` have they come and talked yet? - No. - Knowing there's a cost-of-living`? OK. Knowing that you're a service provider, knowing there's a cost of living crisis, that hasn't happened ` they haven't come to you yet? - That's correct, yeah. But the invitation is there. - OK. Ahorangi, I wanna talk about some other issues, which are actually really aligned. And that's about the fundamental requirements that need to change to allow access to equitable outcomes in education, equitable outcomes in that area and things like that. How does that happen, and is it happening now, to allow change in the future or not? - I think it's really clear that, no, it's not happening now, because far too many of our tamariki and our taiohi aren't experiencing the, sort of success that they, you know, deserve to experience within the education system. It's hard to be successful when you're hungry, you know, and when your basic, fundamental needs aren't being met ` a warm, safe whare, kai on the table ` you know, educational success looks a little lofty. So there's some basic fundamental rights, um, that need to be met. And, you know, it's really sad that it's become so normalised that people think a whole bunch of hungry brown children is OK, and it's not ` it's an indictment on our society and the shape that Aotearoa, you know, is in at the moment. Um, and that began before the current political leadership, but, you know, political leadership matters. Moving forward, like, I also think success, um, is what we should strive for, as Maori. Um, you know, as a demographer, when I look over the broad sweep of time and how, you know, at the turn of the 19th century, we were only 42,000 Maori. - Mm. - And, you know, Pakeha were, sort of, preparing to smooth the dying pillow of the Maori race. - Yes. - And now, 2023, there's almost a million Maori ` it's very clear that we have survived as a people, but surviving and thriving are completely different. And what do we want for our mokopuna? Not survival, you know ` we want them to thrive. And what does thriving look like? Well, it looks like educational success; it looks like whanau now, you know, living the way they want to, whether that's on papa kainga or in a flash townhouse; you know, it means being able to speak te reo if they want to. And there's initiatives, Maori-led initiatives, that work ` I know, cos I'm on one of them. - (BOTH CHUCKLE) - BOTH: Puhoro STEMM Academy. - OK. All right. Thank you for that too. I was gonna raise that point. Helen, if I can come back to you. We've heard your very clear call for a cross-ministerial party or working group, or advocacy group, to be able to deal with these issues. I wanna ask the same question ` is there trust and confidence, do you think, now, for that to occur, given the work you're doing now and what you are seeing? - What is incredibly important is that as the leader, and as each one of us, that we hold on to hope and that we work concretely and specifically together towards an expression of that hope. So I will stand with my colleagues on the panel that's here and say the invitation, the request and actually the demand, uh, for this to occur ` now is the time. - Do you think that request will be picked up? Do you think that invitation will be answered? - I am always incredibly hopeful, and I will work towards and stand for all kinds of people to work towards that reality. Yes. - Helen, thank you. We got there in the end, despite the sketchy line ` we'll blame the Aussies for that. E mihi ana ki a koe. And of course, Ahorangi and Tony, tena korua. Thank you both very much for your time. I really appreciate you being live with us in the studio with us here today. Ko te matou taumata tapui tamaka tenei. E mihi ana ki a koutou katoa. Hei te wiki e tu mai nei e hoa ma ` coming up next week on The Hui. - It was different back in the day. We didn't have this rat trouble. - Predator-free by 2050 ` is it still the government's goal? - It's as if, you know, the government doesn't care ` they don't care about the environment any more. - Whilst there may be a view that we have to save every single species, it's one that we may not be able to deliver on. - Are we going to lose our taonga species? - I don't agree that we can't save them all. I think we have to look at the technology that the world can provide. - That is us for this week. Our thanks to our guests. Join us next week for another Hui. Kia mau ki te turanga o Taputapuatea. Haumi e, hui e, taiki e. (DYNAMIC MUSIC) Captions by Faith Hamblyn. Captions were made with the support of NZ On Air. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2024. (MUSIC CONTINUES) (INSPIRATIONAL MUSIC) Ko te reo te take. Na Te Puna Whakatongarewa Te Hui i tautoko.