CAPTIONS BY BRIGIT KELLY AND JAMES BROWN. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ COPYRIGHT ABLE 2024 TENA KOUTOU, NAU MAI, HAERE MAI. WELCOME TO Q+A. I'M JACK TAME. THIS MORNING, AN EXTRAORDINARY INTERVIEW WITH THE CO-LEADER OF TE PATI MAORI. WE'VE GOT A GOVERNMENT THAT IS GENOCIDAL, ECOCIDAL. WE KNOW THAT THEY ARE WHITE SUPREMACISTS. EXPLAIN TO ME WHY A GENOCIDAL GOVERNMENT WOULD GIVE $182M TO WHANAU ORA. BECAUSE THEY ARE OBLIGED TO. WE'LL HAVE THAT INTERVIEW FOR YOU SHORTLY. BUT FIRST, FOR THE LATEST MEASURE IN ITS CRIMINAL JUSTICE REFORMS, THE GOVERNMENT HAS ANNOUNCED IT'S ESTABLISHING A MINISTERIAL ADVISORY GROUP ON RETAIL CRIME. AS JUSTICE MINISTER, PAUL GOLDSMITH IS OVERSEEING MANY OF THE CHANGES WHICH THE NEW GOVERNMENT SAYS ARE DESIGNED TO CRACK DOWN ON CRIME. KIA ORA. MORNING. DURING THE ELECTION CAMPAIGN YOU SAID NATIONAL HAD A COMPREHENSIVE PLAN FOR TACKLING CRIME ` WHY YOU OUTSOURCE AND POLICY? WE STARTED WITH A CLEAR STANCE ` MOVE AWAY FROM THE PREVIOUS DIRECTION WHICH WAS TO REDUCE THE PRISON POPULATION. WE WANT TO REDUCE THE NUMBER OF VICTIMS OF CRIME. WE HAVE LEGISLATION WORKING THROUGH ` WE WANT TO GIVE THE POLICE EXTRA POWER TO DEAL WITH GANGS. THERE IS AN ORGANISED CRIME ELEMENT TO RETAIL CRIME. WHICH IS RESTRICTING THE BIG DISCOUNTS JUDGES GIVE ON BIG SENTENCING ` WANT TOUGHER CONSEQUENCES FOR RETAIL CRIME. RETAIL CRIME IS BEING DONE BY YOUNG KIDS CYCLING THROUGH THE SYSTEM. WE ARE TOUGHENING UP ON YOUTH CRIME. THREE STRIKES ` THERE IS A WHOLE LOT OF WORK GOING THROUGH. WE THINK THERE ARE SOME TECHNICAL ISSUES AROUND RETAIL SPACE THAT WE WANT TO MAKE PROGRESS ON. ONE OF THE THINGS SECURITY CARDS CAN DO TO DEFEND THEIR TERRITORY ` LIKE WHAT? IT'S A BIT VAGUE. YOU ARE AT RISK OF BEING ASSAULTED YOURSELF IF YOU TRY TO STOP SOMEONE WOULD ATTAIN SOMEONE UNTIL POLICE COME ` I THINK THERE IS SOME WORK TO DO TO CLARIFY THAT. THOSE ARE SOME OF THE THINGS I WANT THE SCRIPT COME UP WITH. THERE IS AN INTERESTING LINE THIS WEEK ` ' 'ENABLING BUSINESS OWNERS TO LEGITIMATELY DEFEND THEIR PROPERTY'. ARE SEEN ARE FOR THE FIRST TIME THIS YEAR AT THE SUPERMARKET ` SOMEONE COMING OUT WITH A TROLLEY FULL OF STUFF. WE NOT GOING TO INTERVENE, WE NOT GOING TO STOP THEM IN ANYWAY ` THAT IS NOT SUSTAINABLE. PEOPLE ARE NOT CERTAIN AS TO WHAT THEY CAN AND CAN'T DO ` WE NEED SOME CLARITY THERE. THERE MAY BE A ROLE FOR SECURESECURITY GUARDS TO DETAIN PEOPLE. YOU CAN SEE A POTENTIAL OPTION WHEREBY REGISTERED SECURITY GUARDS COULD DETAIN PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN CONVICTED OF RETAIL CRIME FOR. THE LEGALITIES OF IT AREN'T CLEAR. THREE STRIKES. THE NEW ITERATION HAS PASSED ITS FIRST READING. YOU GET ALL THESE LONG DEBATES ` THE PREVIOUS GOVERNMENT SCRAPPED THE THREE STRIKES REGIME. THEY SAID THERE WAS NO EVIDENCE WHETHER IT WORKED OR DIDN'T ` THAT'S AN ISSUE AROUND JUSTICE GENERALLY. THEY SAID IT DOESN'T DETER PEOPLE FROM COMMITTING CRIMES. THE PRIMARY PURPOSE ` IT DEPENDS. TO SOME PEOPLE IT MAY IN CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES ` THE PRIMARY PURPOSE IS TO GET THE WORST REPEAT OFFENDERS OUT OF THE WAY. THE WORST PROBLEM IS PEOPLE DOING THE SAME THINGS AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN. THEY CREATE FRESH VICTIMS EVERY TIME `) YOU WANT TO KEEP THAT SMALL GROUP OF REPEAT OFFENDERS OUT OF CIRCULATION TO MINIMISE VICTIMS. PREVENTATIVE DETENTION FOR THE WORST OF THE WORSt; ALL OF THE SENTENCES THAT WILL BE MANDATED UNDER THREE STRIKES ARE ALSO ALREADY AVAILABLE TO JUDGES, SO IF YOUR CONCERN IS THAT THEY WILL GET OUT OF PRISON WHY NOT MAKE THE EXPECTATION THAT JUDGES FOLLOW THE RULES ALREADY THERE? FULL REPEAT SERIOUS OFFENDERS WE WANT ESCALATING SERIES OF CONSEQUENCES, SO THAT WE DON'T HAVE PEOPLE CYCLING THROUGH THE SYSTEM TRADING FRESH VICTIMS. THE IDEA WITH INTRODUCED IS THAT WE HAVE A HIGHER THRESHOLD BEFORE REACHING AN OFFENCE REQUIRING YOU TO BE IMPRISONED FOR TWO YEARS. SOME PEOPLE CRITICISE ITS TOO SOFT ` IDEALLY WE WANT HAVING SOMETHING THAT IS SUSTAINABLE. IF IT GETS CHUCKED OUT EVERY TIME LABOUR COMES BACK IT DOESN'T ACHIEVE ANYTHING. WE HAVEN'T WATERED IT DOWN, BUT WE HAVE RAISED THE THRESHOLD BEFORE A STRIKE. YOU SAY DETERRENCE IS IN THE MAIN PURPOSE FOR THIS LEGISLATION WOULD YOU AGREE THAT THE LONGER SOMEONE IS IMPRISONED THE MORE LIKELY THEY ARE TO REPEAT OFFENCES? AS AN AGE OLD PROBLEM. SOMETIMES REHABILITATION A SUCCESSFUL. SO THESE PEOPLE WILL RE-ENTER SOCIETY AT SOME POINT? PEOPLE ARE AT THEIR WORST LIKELIHOOD OF CRIME WHEN THEY YOUNG MALES. YOU ALSO HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO DO REHABILITATION... WE NEED MORE RESOURCES ARE MORE EFFECTIVE REHABILITATION. THAT'S VERY MUCH PART OF A PLAN. I THINK PEOPLE SOMETIMES THINK THAT TRYING TO REDUCE THE NUMBER OF VICTIMS OF CRIME ` THE ONLY PARTCATCHING THE CRIMINALS ISN'T THE ONLY PART OF A PLAN. THE BROADER CONTEXT IS IMPORTANT TO. YOU THINK PEOPLE FROM BAD BACKGROUNDS ARE MORE LIKELY TO OFFEND? YES. TO WHAT EXTENT SHOULD THE BACKGROUND FACT IN A COURT SENTENCE? IT SAID IN A PART OF IT. WE NEED TO TAKE STOCK OF PEOPLE'S BACKGROUNDS. FUNDAMENTALLY, IT'S NOT AN EXCUSE. ULTIMATELY, NO SOCIETY CAN FUNCTION PEOPLE AREN'T HELD PERSONALLY ACCOUNTABLE FOR THEIR ACTIONS. . YES, IT'S INTENDED TO SAVE MONEY. WE HAVE OFFICIAL ADVICE THAT SAYS WE WILL HAVE TO FIND HOW MUCH IT SAVES. THE JUSTICE SYSTEM IS COMPLEX ` DEFENCE LAWYERS CAN ACT IN DIFFERENT WAYS, TRY TO PULL DIFFERENT... TO BE CLEAR ` DO YOU HAVE OFFICIAL ADVICE SAYING THAT IF YOU SCRAP WILL SAVE MONEY? YES. THE IDEA IS IF YOU'RE NOT FUNDING THOSE REPORTS ` YOU LOOK AT THE GRASS, IT'S LIKE EXPONENTIALLY RISE. A FEW YEARS AGO WHEN I STARTED FUNDING THESE REPORTS WENT UP TO 6 MILLION A YEAR. YES WE WILL SAVE MONEY, WE DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH, NEWSROOM IN DECEMBER SUGGESTED THAT SCRAPPING THESE REPORTS COULD RESULT IN HIGHER COSTS FORTHE TAXPAYERS. FOR EXAMPLE EXPANDED PROBATION REPORTS. IT SAYS THAT THIS COULD COST MORE THE TAXPAYERS. DO ACCEPT THAT THAT'S ON THE ADVICE IS? OFFICIALS COME UP WITH ALL TYPES OF PERMUTATIONS AND POSSIBILITIES. IT'S ABOUT WHAT'S STOPPING WAS A RUNAWAY TRAIN. YOU HAD THESE PEOPLE ` CULTURAL REPORTS R US. BUT AS POTENTIALLY COULD COST ME MORE? THERE IS A POTENTIAL RISK THAT THIS COULD HAPPEN THERE IS A POTENTIAL RISK THAT THAT COULD HAPPEN... I HAVEN'T GOT A PIECE OF PAPER IN FRONT OF ME THAT SAYS THAT. THE CURRENT PRISON POPULATION IS FORECAST TO INCREASE WITH THE NEW GOVERNMENT POLICY EXPECTED TO INCREASE DEMAND. IF YOU HAVE A WELL-PUBLICISED TOUGHER PENALTIES BUT THE PRISON POPULATION DECREASES ` DOESN'T THAT PROVE THAT DETERRENCE DOESN'T WORK? DETERRENCE AS PART OF THE JUSTICE SYSTEM. THE OTHER PART IS HOLDING PEOPLE TO ACCOUNT. IF YOU ARE CONVICTED OF A VIOLENT SEXUAL OFFENCE... THERE IS A WHOLE HOST OF ISSUES AND THAT. IT DOESN'T DENOUNCE THE ACT ` INTO SOCIETY SAYING WE DENOUNCE THE ACTION, AND WE WILL HOLD YOU TO ACCOUNT IT SENDS A BROADER MESSAGE THAT THAT ISN'T ACCEPTABLE. WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO DO IS RESTORE CONSEQUENCES FOR SERIOUS VIOLENT AND SEXUAL OFFENDERS. THE PROBLEM IS THAT NEW ZEALAND HAS REALLY HIGH RECIDIVISM STATES. THERE IS A HIGH LIKELIHOOD THAT ONCE THEY ARE RELEASED FROM PRISON EVEN IF THEY'VE BEEN IN THERE LONGER THAN THEY HAVE BEEN UNDER PREVIOUS REGIMES THEY ARE LIKELY TO REOFFEND. SO WE AS A PUBLIC ARE DELAYING THE LIKELIHOOD OF REPEATED CRIMES. THE ALTERNATIVE IS TO GIVE UP BECAUSE IT'S ALL TOO HARD. THAT'S NOT THE ALTERNATIVE. THAT DOESN'T WORK WELL EITHER ` WE'VE TRIED THAT BEFORE AND IT DOESN'T WORK. WE'VE TRIED TO REDUCE THE PRISON POPULATION AND WE'VE SEEN AN INCREASE IN VIOLENT CRIME. ACCORDING TO POLICE, THE NUMBER OF GANG MEMBERS UNDER THE NATIONAL GOVERNANCE CONTINUES TO INCREASE AND CONTINUE TO INCREASE IN THE FIRST THREE MONTHS OF YOUR GOVERNMENT. SO FOR A GOVERNMENT THAT IS LASER FOCUSED ON TARGETS ` YOU HAVE AN OFFICIAL NUMBER FORWARD GANG NUMBERS? WE WANT TO REDUCE NUMBER OF VICTIMS IN CRIME AND THE NUMBER OF SERIOUS REPEAT YOUTH OFFENDERS. IS A VERY MEASURABLE ` WE DO EXPECT TO GANG MEMBERS TO GO DOWN. I'VE BEEN OUT TO MANY PUBLIC MEETINGS PARTICULARLY IN THE RETAIL SPACE ` PEOPLE ARE VERY IMPATIENT THEY WANT TO CHANGE RIGHT NOW ` WE'RE NOT GOING TO SOLVE THE EDUCATION PROBLEMS IN SIX MONTHS, WE NOT GOING TO SOLVE THE HEALTH PROBLEMS, WE WON'T HAVE LAW AND ORDER RESTORED IN SIX MONTHS ` IT TAKES TIME. IS ABOUT CHANGING THE SETTINGS; THE CONFIDENT OVERTIME... BIG CHANGES IN THE GANG SPACE THOUGH. THE NUMBER OF MEMBERS AS PER YOUR OFFICIAL DOCUMENTATION ` BY THE END OF THIS PARLIAMENTARY TERM OF THE NEXT TWO YEARS WHEN WILL IT BE? YOUR GOVERNMENT OF TARGETS. I DON'T KNOW. WE WILL BAN GANG PATCHES PUBLIC ` WE WILL MAKE IT HARD FOR THEM. ONE FACTOR IS REDUCING THE PREVALENCE AND INTIMIDATION OF GANGS AND PUBLIC. THE REAL FOCUS IS TO REDUCE THE NUMBER OF VICTIMS OF CRIME. AFTER BREAK WE'RE TALKING MEDIA. WHAT IS META REFUSES TO PAY FOR NEWS? AS THE MEDIA AND COMMUNICATIONS MINISTER, PAUL GOLDSMITH HAS ANNOUNCED NATIONAL WILL SUPPORT THE FAIR DIGITAL NEWS BARGAINING BILL, WHICH WILL ESSENTIALLY FORCE THE TECH GIANTS TO PAY NEW ZEALAND NEWS PRODUCERS FOR THEIR CONTENT. I THOUGHT WE SAID NO NEW TAXES? THIS LEGISLATION IF PASSED WILL BE A BACKSTOP TO ENCOURAGE NEGOTIATIONS TO HAPPEN BETWEEN BUSINESSES. AND HAS LOTS OF MAGNETS TO BE HAD ABOUT THE EXTENT TO WHICH SOCIAL MEDIA HELPED THE LOCAL PRODUCERS IN TERMS OF GETTING THE STORIES OUT OR MAKE USE OF THESE STORIES TO MAKE MONEY FOR THEMSELVES; SO THE POINTERS FOR THOSE NEGOTIATIONS TO HAPPEN TO CREATE A BACKSTOP. AND MANDATORY BARGAINING CODE IS ANOTHER TEXT BY THIS LABOUR GOVERNMENT. THAT WAS MELISSA LEE. WE WORKED OUR WAY THROUGH THE SYSTEM ` I WOULDN'T DESCRIBE IT AS A TAX STUMP. IF YOU LOOK AROUND THE WORLD IT'S BEEN MIXED, BUT IN AUSTRALIA IN REGARDS INOF GOOGLE IT WORKS. WHERE IS METTER CONTINUING TO COMMIT TO PAY? METTER HAVE BEEN STRONG ARGUMENTS TO VOMIT. IT'S FOR THEM TO MAKE THE ARGUMENT ` IT'S FOR THEM TO MAKE THE ARGUMENT TO DELIVER MORE VALUE THAN MEDIA PRODUCERS. THE BILL IS TO ENSURE THE BASIC DISCUSSIONS HAPPEN ABOUT WHERE THE VALUE IS ADDED OR SUBTRACTED. WHAT YOUR POSITION? WHO DO YOU THINK LOSING NEWS CONTENT FROM METTER HURTS MOST? IN THE NEW ZEALAND CONTEXT MRS COLOSSAL ` IF WE FELL OFF THE BACK OF THE BUS PEOPLE WOULDN'T NOTICE. WHAT IS A RISK FOR SMALL NEWS PRODUCERS IN NEW ZEALAND? IT'S A BIG RISK. IS ALSO RISK IF YOU DO NOTHING. THOSE STREAMERS COULD WALK AWAY FROM THOSE ARRANGEMENTS I HAVE A MOMENT. SIMILAR TO THE AUSTRALIAN APPROACH... WE WILL PROVIDE A BACKSTOP AND NOTHING MORE. I UNDERSTAND THAT. I UNDERSTAND THAT LARGER NEWS ORGANISATIONS HAVE BEEN LOBBYING THE GOVERNMENT TO SUPPORT THIS BILL. BUT AM INTERESTED IN THOSE SMALL NEWS PRODUCERS. BY INTRODUCING THIS AS AN ACT SMALLER NEWS PRODUCERS IN NEW ZEALAND WILL BE DAMAGED MORE THAN THEY ARE IN THE STATUS QUO. THERE IS A RISK WHATEVER YOU DO THERE IS A RISK. WE ARE COMING UP WITH A BACKSTOP PIECE OF LEGISLATION. WHAT IN THE LEGISLATION REQUIRES MEDIA COMPANIES TO SPEED THE MONIES THEY GET FROM THE TECH GIANTS ON JOURNALISM? WHAT THEY SPEND A DOLLAR ON IS UP TO THEM. SO THERE IS NOTHING IN THE BILL THAT SAYS YOU HAVE TO SPEND MONEY FROM GOOGLE ON JOURNALISM? EVERYTHING FLOWS THROUGH TO WHETHER YOU'RE A SUCCESSFUL BUSINESS NOT. ULTIMATELY WE COULD BE TAKING MONEY FROM GOOGLE AND GIVING IT TO SHAREHOLDERS. THERE IS NOTHING TO STOP THAT FROM HAPPENING? WHAT IS A PUBLIC INTEREST IN THIS? ONE ` WE HAVE A SUSTAINABLE FOURTH ESTATE THAT HOLDS PEOPLE LIKE ME, BUSINESSES AND PEOPLE TO ACCOUNT; SECOND ` WE NEED TO HAVE ACCESS TO A STORIES AND MUSIC IN A VERY CLUTTERED INTERNATIONAL WORLD. WE HAVE SEEN A DRAMATIC CHANGE IN THE WAY THOSE INDUSTRIES ARE BEING FUNDED, PARTICULARLY THROUGH FUNDING AND PEOPLE'S HABITS CHANGING. I'M NOT SAYING THE GOVERNMENT WILL SUBSIDISE THE OLD WAYS SO NOTHING WILL CHANGE. WE HAVE TO ACCEPT THAT BUSINESSES HAVE TO ADAPT. THIS LEGISLATION IS PROVIDING A LEGISLATIVE BACKSTOP TO THESE CONVERSATIONS. THE BROADCASTING STANDING AUTHORITY AS A MEDIATOR. IS IT SOMETHING YOU WOULD SUPPORT? I THINK THE BROADCASTING AUTHORITY MAKES SENSE TO ME. COULD BE VALUABLE TO ZOOM OUT AND CONSIDER THE PLACE OF BIG MEDIA COMPANIES IN NEW ZEALAND. HAS A SHAREHOLDING MINISTER, WHAT IS THE POINT OF TVNZ? THE POINTERS TO ENSURE WE HAVE A SUCCESSFUL BROADCASTER IN NEW ZEALAND PROVIDING MEDIA AND OUR STORIES THAT OPERATES IN A COMMERCIAL SETTING. WE HAVE TWO ELEMENTS IN NEW ZEALAND CONTEXT ` WE HAVE COMMERCIAL FREE ON PUBLIC TELEVISION; THEN WE HAVE TVNZ IN THE BROADCAST SPACE AND THE WHAKAATA MAORI. TVNZ IS UNDER PRESSURE AT THE MOMENT THAT IT HAS WORKED WELL IN THE PAST. HAS BEEN THAT WAY FOR 21 YEARS BUT THE MEDIA LANDSCAPE IS PROFOUNDLY DIFFERENT TODAY. IF YOU READ THE TVNZ AD IT'S CLEAR ` THEY ARE TRYING TO PROVIDE HIGH-QUALITY NEW ZEALAND CONTENT WHILST ALSO TURNING A PROFIT. IT WAS FINE IN 2003, BUT WHAT IS THE RISK AND MAINTAINING THE ACTUAL MANDATE. IT ENDS UP DOING A LOUSY JOB OF BOTH. THAT IS A RISK ` THAT IS A CHALLENGE FOR THE BOARD. I THINK THAT'S WHAT MAKES THIS WHOLE AREA SO FASCINATING, THINGS HAVE CHANGED A RAT MEDICALLYDRAMATICALLY. IS NOT SURECLEAR TO ME WHAT IS STRUCTURAL AND WHAT ISN'T. WE WANT TO GET THE ECONOMY BACK ON TRACK. EVERYONE IS TRYING TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO GET OUR COSTS BACK IN A GOOD SHAPE. IF THEY CAN'T WE HAVE TO RETHINK IT. WHAT WOULD BE A POSITION OF THAT WAS THE CASE? I'M NOT CONVINCED WE HAVE TO FUNDAMENTALLY CHANGE THE BASIC STRUCTURE? THE PREVIOUS GOVERNMENT MUCKED AROUND TRYING TO PUT TOGETHER A PUBLIC-SECTOR BROADCAST ` I DON'T THINK THAT MAKES MORE SENSE. YOU CAN'T SEE ANY VALUE IN THAT? I THINK IT WOULD BE MORE EXPENSIVE FOR TAXPAYERS. BUT IT MIGHT DO A BETTER JOB? WITH THE DUAL MANDATE YOU HAVE TO MAKE MONEY BUT ALSO PRODUCE HIGH-QUALITY CONTENT. THAT UCT MEANS IT DOESN'T DO A GOOD JOB OF EITHER OF THESE THINGS. HAVING TO BE COMMERCIAL AND HAVE PEOPLE WATCH YOUR SHOWS IS A GOOD DISCIPLINE FRANKLY. PEOPLE DON'T WANT TO. TACTUAL AND SHORTLAND STREET ` WILL IT STILL BE COSTING TVNZ MONEY? IS UP TO TVNZ HOW THEY DO THAT OR NOT. WILL SHORTLAND STREET STILL COST TVNZ MONEY? IT MAY OR MAY NOT. IF YOU LOOK AT IT FROM A COMMERCIAL LENS ` WHY SHOULD TVNZ CONTINUE TO FUND SHORTLAND STREET? WHAT'S THE POINT? NOT ENOUGH YOU IS LIKE IT OTHERWISE IT WOULD STILL BE SET AS DATABLESUSTAINABLE. SUSTAINABLE. IN TERMS OF OUR ACTING AND REDUCING LANDSCAPE ` PEOPLE AGREE WITH THAT BUT HAS TO MAKE MONEY AND IS NOT MAKING MONEY BECAUSE NOT ENOUGH PEOPLE ARE WATCHING THAT'S THE HEART OF IT. WE ARE NOT IN THE BUSINESS OF SUSTAINING SOMETHING LIKE THAT PEOPLE ARE PREPARED TO WATCH IT. BUT WE WANT TOWE MAY MAKE SOME CHANGES THAT CAN MAKE IT CONTINUE. IT'S UP TO THE TV INDUSTRY TO DECIDE. YOU WAITING TO SEE IF THEY CAN MAKE MONEY AND PRODUCE HIGH-QUALITY NEW ZEALAND CONTENT. WILL YOU HAVEN'T ANSWERED THAT IN THIS PARLIAMENTARY TERM? NOT NECESSARILY. WHERE AN INFLECTION POINT WHERE THINGS ARE CHANGING DRAMATICALLY. PEOPLE ARE FINDING IT HARD TO LIVE IN A NEW WORLD. THERE IS STILL A HUNGER FOR NEW ZEALAND NEWS AND CONTENT. WHAT PEOPLE ARE TRYING TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO MAKE THAT ECONOMICALLY SUSTAINABLE. THE GOVERNMENT PUTS IN A BIT WITH NEW ZEALAND ON AIR AND FILM COMMISSION BUT... THE PROBLEM IS ` TV IS VERY EXPENSIVE TO MAKE. THERE IS NOTHING TO SUGGEST THAT TVNZ CAN DO BOTH OF THESE THINGS. THERE MAY BE WAYS TO FIND MORE EFFICIENT WAYS TO DO IT. THERE ALWAYS HAS BEEN A CYCLICAL DOWNTURN IN TERMS OF REVENUE AND ADVERTISING. CHANCE OF GETTING NGAPUI OVER THE LINE? ONE IS TO MAKE PROGRESS ON IT ` WE WANT TO TALK AND NEGOTIATE. BUT IT'S UP TO THE VARIOUS HAPU TO DECIDE. DO YOU RECKON THE MAJORITY RECKONS? PEOPLE ALWAYS OPPOSED. IF YOU WANT TO CONTACT THE Q+A TEAM, PLEASE KORERO MAI. THESE ARE OUR MAIN PLATFORMS ` YOU CAN EMAIL US OR FIND US ON X OR FACEBOOK. AFTER THE BREAK, TE PATI MAORI WANTS TO ESTABLISH A MAORI PARLIAMENT. SO WE ASK HOW THAT MIGHT WORK IN PRACTICE. IT IS 20 YEARS SINCE THE FORESHORE AND SEABED CONTROVERSY AND 20 YEARS THIS WEEK SINCE THE FORMATION OF TE PATI MAORI. AFTER WINNING SIX OF THE SEVEN MAORI SEATS AT LAST YEAR'S ELECTION, THE PARTY HAS ITS BIGGEST CAUCUS EVER, AS IT PURSUES WHAT IT CALLS A TIRITI-CENTRIC AOTEAROA HOU. THIS WEEK I TRAVELLED TO PARIROA PA IN TARANAKI AND THE HOME OF TE PATI MAORI CO-LEADER DEBBIE NGAREWA-PACKER. I BEGAN BY ASKING HER TO REFLECT ON WHAT HER PARTY HAS ACHIEVED. I THINK PROBABLY THE MOST PROMINENT THING THAT THE MOVEMENT HAS ACHIEVED AND CONTINUES TO THRIVE IN IS THE PROMOTION OF MAORI POLITICAL AUTONOMY, AND IN A RELEVANT WAY, FOR THE GENERATIONS THAT IT CROSSES; YOU LOOK AT 20 YEARS AGO, TO NOW, 2024 ` WE REPRESENT, YOU KNOW, MORE THAN A MILLION OF THE POPULATION, THE MEDIAN AGE OF MAORI ARE 28 YEARS OLD ` SO WE'VE EVOLVED INTO A MOVEMENT THAT NOT ONLY HAS SHOWED AND NORMALISED THE ASPIRATIONS FOR MAORI POLITICAL AUTONOMY, BUT ALSO, MOST IMPORTANTLY, REPRESENTS AND BRINGS OUR RANGITAHI IN OUR YOUNGER POPULATION. SO, YEAH, I THINK THAT'S NO EASY FEAT, AND I THINK THAT INFLUENCE THAT WE'VE BEEN ABLE TO GROW AND ASCERTAIN, YOU KNOW, WE DON'T HAVE THE ONE HIKOI, WE CAN IGNITE MULTIPLE HIKOI ACROSS THE COUNTRY, ACROSS MULTIPLE SPHERES; AND I THINK THAT'S THE MOST IMPORTANT PART, IS ACTUALLY UTILISING OUR SPHERE OF INFLUENCE TO BRING RISE TO ALL THE LEADERS AND THE ADVOCATES AND THE KAUPAPA THAT ARE OUT THERE IN AOTEAROA. IT'S NOT ABOUT US, IT'S ACTUALLY ABOUT US USING THIS PLATFORM TO DO THAT. YOU THINK OF YOURSELF AS BEING A PRETTY RADICAL THINKER, RIGHT? OH, I DON'T KNOW IF I'M ` I THINK I THINK OF MYSELF AS BEING AN ACTIVIST, PROBABLY LIKE A LOT OF THE TUPUNA IN THIS ROOM. BUT DEFINITELY I'D LIKE TO SEE MYSELF AS BEING PART OF THE TRANSFORMATIONAL CULTURE. SO DEFINITELY, YEAH. IN REFLECTING ON THE DIFFERENT ITERATIONS OF TE PATI MAORI OVER THE YEARS, I JUST WONDERED, DO YOU THINK THAT YOU AND RAWIRI WAITITI WOULD HAVE FITTED IN FOR THAT ORIGINAL TE PATI MAORI FORMATION WITH DAME TARI AND TA PITA? WELL, I KNOW THAT WE DID BECAUSE WE WERE PART OF THE HIKOI. IN FACT, MY SON WAS THREE MONTHS OLD AND WE TOOK AND BOUGHT FIVE BUSES FROM TARANAKI FOR THE FIRST TIME AS PART OF THAT HIKOI. SO, I WAS ABSOLUTELY PART OF THE FABRIC. I GUESS IN, IN THAT ERA, WE WERE ALL PART OF DECOLONISING BEING TAUGHT BY HUIRANGI WAIKEREPURU, TE MERINGA, HOHAIA MA, FORMING OUR POLITICS; AND CERTAINLY UNDER THE LEADERSHIP OF WHAIA TARIANA ` SHE FORMED A LOT OF MY VIEWS THAT I HAVE TODAY, BUT I GUESS WAS... THE FABRIC OF OUR POLITICS ARE STILL VERY MUCH THE SAME. WE STILL BELIEVE IN ORANGA WHANAU, ORANGA WHENUA SO, YEAH, I GUESS WE JUST TRANSLATE IT AND PRESENT IT AND PROMOTE IT IN DIFFERENT WAYS THAT ARE RELEVANT FOR 2024 TO PARTY. TE PATI MAORI'S BIG POLICY PLAY THIS YEAR IS TE NGAUKAU O TE IWI MAORI ` THE DECLARATION OF POLITICAL INDEPENDENCE. AND I'VE TAKEN THIS LINE FROM TE PATI MAORI'S WEBSITE ` QUOTE, 'WE DEMAND A MAORI PARLIAMENT EXACTLY THE SAME AS HAS BEEN GRANTED TO THE IRISH, THE SCOTS AND THE WELSH'. HOW WILL IT BE EXACTLY THE SAME AS THE IRISH PARLIAMENT? I GUESS FOR US, WHAT WE'RE DOING IS SHOWING OUR TANGATA TIRITI AND SHOWING AOTEAROA THAT ACTUALLY IT IS POSSIBLE, IT'S BEEN DONE AND IT IS CONTINUOUSLY BEING DONE AND DEMANDED ACROSS THE WORLD. FOR US, IT'S NOT ` HOW IS IT IN IRELAND? CAN YOU EXPLAIN THAT? I THINK YOU KNOW, I GUESS THE MOST IMPORTANT PART OF WHAT IT IS IN IRELAND THAT WE CAN RELATE TO, IS THE FACT THAT WE HAVE AN INDIGENOUS PEOPLE WHO WERE COLONISED ON THEIR OWN WHENUA AND WHO HAVE THE ABSOLUTE DESIRE TO HOLD AND RETAIN THEIR OWN AUTONOMY. THAT'S THE COMMON GROUND. THE SPECIFICS IS WHY WE'VE ACTUALLY GONE OUT AND SAID, DON'T ASK DEBBIE AND RAWIRI WHAT THE SPECIFICS ARE. LET'S WANANGA THIS AND AGAIN, WE SHOULD NEVER TAKE THE CREDIT ` THAT'S NOT A DEBBIE/RAWIRI/TE PATI MAORI IDEA. THERE'S TUPUNA ON THIS WALL WHO HAD THAT WHAKAARO IN 1854 AT MANOA PO. THESE TUPUNA WITHIN TE TIRITI THAT TALK ABOUT ` AND I GUESS THIS IS AN ASPIRATION THAT'S NOT NEW. WE'RE JUST USING OUR PLATFORM TO STAY CONTINUOUSLY FOCUSED ON THE RANGATIRATANGA SPACE BECAUSE THE KAWANATANGA SPACE CONTINUOUSLY LETS US DOWN. SO THAT'S THE PART ABOUT IT, IT'S BEING ASPIRATIONAL ` LET'S NOT GET CAUGHT UP IN THE DETAIL ` THAT'S THE WANANGA AND THAT'S WHY WE USE OUR PLATFORM TO BRING TO RISE WHAT RATANA, WHAT TE KOOTI WHAT OTHER LEADERS MUCH BIGGER THAN US HAVE ACTUALLY POSED AS WELL. SO I'M JUST GOING FROM THE LANGUAGE THAT IS ON THE TE PATI MAORI WEBSITE ` EXACTLY THE SAME AS HAS BEEN GRANTED TO THE IRISH, THE SCOTS AND THE WELSH. IRELAND IS OBVIOUSLY A SOVEREIGN COUNTRY. HOW IS IT THE SAME AS WHAT HAS BEEN GRANTED TO THE SCOTS? SO IS AOTEAROA. WE NEVER CEDED SOVEREIGNTY. MAORI NEVER CEDED SOVEREIGNTY. SO WOULD THE PARLIAMENT GOVERN OVER EVERYONE IN NEW ZEALAND? THE MAORI` I GUESS THIS IS THE KORERO. WELL, THAT'S WHY THAT'S HOW THE PARLIAMENT IN IRELAND WORKS, THOUGH. BUT I GUESS THIS IS THE KORERO, IS THAT FIRST AND FOREMOST TE NGAKAU O TE IWI IS OPEN FOR ALL PEOPLES OF AOTEAROA, BECAUSE TANGATA TIRITI ARE A CRITICAL PART, TANGATA PASIFIKA, AND THAT'S WHY WE'VE SAID THIS IS KORERO TO SHOW, DON'T SAY IT CAN'T BE DONE. DON'T SAY WE'RE RADICAL BECAUSE WE'RE POSING WHAT TUPUNA BIGGER AND AND MUCH MORE FAMOUS THAN US HAVE DONE. DON'T SAY THAT, HEY... AND WE'RE NOT SAYING THAT THIS IS TE PATI MAORI THAT'S DOING IT. WE'RE NOT SAYING THAT IT HAS TO BE DONE BY US. WHAT WE'RE SAYING IS WE HAVE CONTINUOUSLY, FOR 180 YEARS, LEFT OTHERS IN CHARGE OF TRYING TO DO THINGS BY US. WE MAKE UP A MILLION. WE SHOULD AT LEAST BE HAVING A MINIMUM OF 20% ON OUR KAUPAPA. BUT WHAT ARE WE DOING? WE'RE IN 2024 FIGHTING TO EVEN JUSTIFY THAT WE HAVE OUR OWN KAUPAPA FUNDED, THAT WE ACTUALLY DESERVE TO BE IN CHARGE OF OUR OWN SOLUTIONS SO THE WHOLE KORERO, AND IF YOU LOOK AT OUR MANA MOTUHAKE POLICY, AND IF YOU LOOK AT THE KORERO THAT CAME FROM MATIKI MAI, GO OUT AND HAVE WANANGA, GO OUT AND TALK ABOUT IT, LAY THIS KORERO DOWN FOR OUR TAMARIKI TO KAPA ABOUT, TO WAIKORERO AND MANU KORERO ABOUT, LAY IT DOWN IN OUR WHANAU AT OUR TABLE TO KORERO ABOUT. KINGI TUHEITIA SAID AT THAT HUI A MOTU IN OMAHU, HE SAID, QUOTE, 'IT FRIGHTENS ME, THIS IDEA.' SO WHAT MIGHT A MAORI PARLIAMENT, TO JUST USE THAT WORD, 'PARLIAMENT', WHAT MIGHT THAT MEAN FOR THE KINGITANGA'S AUTHORITY? I DON'T THINK IT... FIRST AND FOREMOST, IF YOU TALK TO MY 82-YEAR-OLD PAPA, HE'S FRIGHTENED. WHEN I HEAR THE NEEDS OF OUR PEOPLE AND THE WAY THAT THIS KAWANATANGA SPACE IS CONTINUOUSLY LETTING US DOWN, MAKING US FEEL LIKE WE'RE EXPENDABLE, I'M FRIGHTENED. AND IF I WASN'T, THEN IT'S NOT BOLD ENOUGH, IT'S NOT TRANSFORMATIONAL ENOUGH. WE'RE EVOLVING, AND WE CANNOT USE OUR SPHERE OF INFLUENCE TO NOT ACTUALLY TALK ABOUT THESE KAUPAPA. BUT OUR RANGATIRATANGA, OUR KINGITANGA, OUR RATANATANGA, OUR IWITANGA, IT DOESN'T CHANGE. AND I THINK THOSE ARE THE REASONS WHY WE NEED TO TALK. I MEAN, TARANAKI WERE A CRITICAL PART OF FORMING OUR KINGITANGA, AS A FORM OF RESISTANCE TO THE COLONISATION AND THE WAY THAT WE WERE BEING TREATED. I THINK THESE ARE ALL ABOUT AND, AND, AND. AND AGAIN, YOU KNOW, I THINK WE DROPPED THE KORERO, WHAT, MAYBE A MONTH AGO? AND IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT THAT WE CONTINUE TO HAVE THIS` YOU HAVE THIS KORERO WITH YOUR WHANAU, AND WE COME AND WE AGAIN INVITE IT TO BE SOMETHING THAT WE CONTINUOUSLY WEAVE TOGETHER AND GROW TOGETHER AS A NATION. WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF DARLENE TANA'S TREATMENT? I THINK FIRST OF ALL, I WANT TO MIHI TO MARAMA. I AM AWARE THAT SHE HAD HER SURGERY THIS WEEK, AND I HOPE THAT SHE'S WELL. WITH EVERYTHING THAT GOES ON, SOMETIMES WE FORGET WHAT PARTIES ARE REALLY CONTENDING WITH. IT'S A GREEN PARTY ISSUE. I THINK THAT THEY'VE BEEN REALLY HONEST WITH THE PUBLIC ON THE PROCESS THAT THEY'VE DECIDED TO FOLLOW. IF THE QUESTION IS HOW DO I FEEL ABOUT THE FACT THAT ONE OF THEIR MAORI WAHINE MPs IS LEAVING, WE'VE SEEN THIS HAPPEN WITH THE GREEN PARTIES AND ELIZABETH KEREKERE. AND WE WILL SAY THE SAME AS WE SAID THEN, THAT IS UP TO THAT TANGATA AND THAT PARTY TO SORT OUT. IT'S GOT... SHE DIDN'T COME TO US BEFORE SHE GOT IN. IT'S NONE OF OUR BUSINESS DURING IT. HAVE YOU HAD ANY CONTACT WITH HER? ABSOLUTELY NOT. IF SHE WAS INTERESTED IN JOINING TE PATI MAORI, WOULD YOU SUPPORT HER JOINING YOUR CAUCUS? I THINK THE REALITY IS THAT I THINK SIX OF US IS ENOUGH AT THE MOMENT. BUT THE REALITY IS THAT WE HAVE MANDATES FROM MAORI ELECTORATES, AND THOSE ARE A PRIVILEGE TO CARRY. AND SO YOU DON'T SEE HER FITTING IN TE PATI MAORI AT THE MOMENT. TO BE REALLY HONEST, JACK, AND IT'S PROBABLY THE SIMILAR QUESTION WE GOT WHEN ELIZABETH WAS LEAVING, WE DIDN'T APPROACH ELIZABETH AT THE TIME. SHE DIDN'T APPROACH US. WE HAVEN'T APPROACHED DARLENE. SHE HASN'T APPROACHED US. WE ARE SIX MPs WITH SOME PRETTY OUT-THERE COMMUNITIES TO MAKE SURE WE LOOK AFTER. AND I THINK THAT'S OUR FOCUS AT THE MOMENT. AFTER THE BREAK, TE PATI MAORI MPs HAVE ACCUSED THE GOVERNMENT OF WHITE SUPREMACY AND GENOCIDE. HOW DO THEY JUSTIFY THAT KIND OF LANGUAGE? THE PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION IS INVESTIGATING CLAIMS PRIVATE CENSUS DATA GATHERED AT MANUREWA MARAE WAS MISUSED IN THE LEAD-UP TO LAST YEAR'S ELECTION. ALL PARTIES HAVE DENIED WRONGDOING, BUT THE ACCUSATIONS HIGHLIGHTED THE CLOSE RELATIONSHIPS BETWEEN TE PATI MAORI MEMBERS AND WHANAU ORA COMMISSIONERS AND PROVIDERS. WHY IS IT APPROPRIATE FOR THE PRESIDENT OF A POLITICAL PARTY TO ALSO BE THE CEO OF AN ORGANISATION THAT RECEIVES TENS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN GOVERNMENT FUNDING EACH YEAR? IS THE QUESTION ABOUT THE FACT` BECAUSE I GUESS IS THE QUESTION, IS THE QUESTION ABOUT THE FACT` BECAUSE I GUESS IS THE QUESTION, PERSONALLY, BECAUSE THERE'S AN ISSUE, AN ANTI-JOHN TAMIHERE ISSUE ` OR IS THE QUESTION THAT YOU JUST DON'T THINK THAT ANYONE MAORI SHOULD HAVE ANY PRIOR EXPERIENCE BEFORE BECOMING A POLITICAL PERSON? THE QUESTION IS SIMPLY IF YOU CAN EXPLAIN TO US HOW IT IS APPROPRIATE FOR SOMEONE TO HOLD QUITE A SENIOR POSITION IN A PARTY ` A PARTY PRESIDENT NO LESS ` WHILST ALSO HEADING UP ORGANISATIONS THAT RECEIVE HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS. IF WE WERE TO TAKE AWAY THE FACT THAT THERE DOES SEEM TO BE AN ANTI-JOHN TAMIHERE THEME COMING OUT OF THE MEDIA, IF WE WERE TO LOOK AT THE PERSON'S EXPERIENCE, WE HAVE SOMEONE HERE WHO HAS YEARS OF EXPERIENCE IN TRANSFORMATIONAL KAUPAPA FOR WHANAU, WHO HAS YEARS OF EXPERIENCE CONTRIBUTING TO URBAN MAORI, WHO MAKE UP A LARGE PROPORTION OF OUR POPULATION ` MORE THAN 50%, IN FACT, WHO LIVE IN TAMAKI MAKAURAU. WE HAVE SOMEONE WHO HAS YEARS OF EXPERIENCE IN FIGHTING FOR THE RIGHTS, NOT ONLY FROM A LEGAL PERSPECTIVE, BUT FROM A GRASSROOTS ADVOCACY PERSPECTIVE, WHO COULD HAVE USED HIS SPHERE OF INFLUENCE TO ACTUALLY LOOK AFTER COMFORTABLE PEOPLE. IN FACT, HE'S MADE SURE HE'S BEEN IN KAUPAPA THAT HAVE LEFT NOBODY BEHIND AND HAVE GROWN KAUPAPA LIKE WHANAU WAIPAREIRA, WHANAU ORA AND IN FACT URBAN MAORI. SO LET'S JUST TAKE THE NAME AWAY. THAT PERSON IS ABSOLUTELY IDEAL TO BE LEADING AND A PRESIDENT OF A PARTY THAT IS TRYING TO TRANSFORM PEOPLE'S LIVES AND TURN IT AROUND FROM DEFICIT AND TURN IT AROUND FROM NEGATIVE INEQUITIES TO HAVING SOMETHING TO ACTUALLY HOLD ON FOR THE FUTURE. I'LL JUST GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE OF SOME OF THE TENSION AT PLAY HERE. SO, FOR EXAMPLE, YOU WROTE A PIECE THIS WEEK EXPRESSING CONCERN ABOUT POTENTIAL CHANGES IN THE FUTURE TO WHANAU ORA COMMISSIONING PROCESSES. ABSOLUTELY. AS SOMEONE LOOKING AT IT FROM THE OUTSIDE, HOW DO I KNOW THAT YOU AS POLITICIAN ARE NOT SIMPLY DOING HIS BIDDING? OH, OK. BECAUSE FIRST OF ALL, I'M A WAHINE MAORI ` NOBODY COULD TELL ME HOW TO BID FOR ANYBODY. BUT THE OTHER SIDE OF IT IS` BUT DO YOU SEE THE PERCEPTION ISSUE THERE? YEAH, BUT I'M GOING TO ALSO, IF I CAN JUST EXPLAIN ANOTHER ANGLE, WHICH I THINK HAS SADLY BEEN MISSED, DURING COVID ` AND I LED A COVID RESPONSE DOWN HERE IN TARANAKI ` MAORI WERE COMPLETELY FORGOTTEN IN THE PUBLIC HEALTH RESPONSE, TO THE POINT THAT WE EXPERIENCED SOME OF THE WORST RACISM EVER. NOW, WE HAD A LEAD IN THERE WHO MADE SURE THAT WE HAD WHANAU ORA KITS AND KAUPAPA SUPPORT TO ACTUALLY HELP LEARN TO VACCINATE SUPPORT, TO ACTUALLY HELP LEARN AND BRING RAKAU IN TO HELP DO TESTING FOR COMMUNITIES THAT WERE OTHERWISE ISOLATED, FORGOTTEN ABOUT, WHO DIDN'T FIT IN TO THE MODEL AND THE COMMS OF THE PUBLIC HEALTH. I THINK EVERYONE AGREES THAT WAS GREAT. EVERYONE AGREES THAT WAS AMAZING, BUT IT DOESN'T ANSWER THE QUESTION. WE HAD A POLITICIAN WHO IS NOW A LEAD POLITICIAN AND FUTURE DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER, WHO GOT A HOLD OF MAORI CODES, AND DESPITE ALL THE INEQUITIES AND DESPITE THE MODELLING SHOWING THAT MAORI WERE GOING TO BE AFFECTED WORSE THAN ANYONE ELSE, AND WAS ABLE TO DO THAT. NOW, YOU KNOW WHAT? IF SOMEBODY LIKE JOHN TAMIHERE WASN'T MANAGING THAT ORGANISATION ALL HELL WOULD HAVE BROKEN LOOSE. BUT BECAUSE JOHN TAMIHERE IS A SUCCESSFUL MAORI WHO HAS GOT IN AND MADE SURE HE DOESN'T FORGET MAORI WHO ARE STRUGGLING AND HAS USED THAT SUCCESS AND CAPACITY TO GROW A SUCCESSFUL MODEL, MODELLED OFF ` BECAUSE WHERE YOU SEE CONFLICT, I SEE HIS CONNECTION TO TA MASON DURIE ` MODELLED OFF SOMEONE HE'S COMPLETELY RESPECTING. I'M NOT DISPUTING FOR A MOMENT HOW EFFECTIVE THE WHANAU ORA MODEL HAS BEEN, OR INDEED HOW EFFECTIVE WAIPAREIRA HAS BEEN. IT'S THE WHANAU ORA MODEL MANAGED AND LED BY JOHN TAMAHERE. BUT MY QUESTION IS` WHO ALSO ` JUST BEAR WITH ME ` WHO ALSO USED THAT EXPERTISE AND HIS EXPERIENCE OF SOME MASSIVE POLITICAL FALLOUT IN LABOUR TO GROW, REFORM AND MANAGE AND LEAD TE PATI MAORI, POLITICALLY, THROUGH FROM NO MPs TO SIX. SO YOU ASK ME, WHAT DO I THINK ABOUT THAT EXPERIENCE? WHAT DO THE RESULTS SAY FOR TE PATI MAORI? WE'VE GONE FROM ONE ELECTORATE MP TO SIX IN THREE YEARS. SHOW ME WHERE THAT'S BEEN DONE BEFORE. BUT THAT'S THE POINT, RIGHT? WE, LOOKING AT THINGS FROM THE OUTSIDE, NEVER KNOW IF JOHN TAMIHERE IS NECESSARILY WORKING IN HIS CAPACITY AS THE WHANAU ORA COMMISSIONING CHAIR OR AS THE HEAD OF WAIPAREIRA OR TE PATI MAORI. I GUESS FOR US AS MAORI, WE DON'T TAKE OUR HATS OFF, YOU'RE SITTING HERE IN MY WHARE. I AM PARIROA PA, NGATI RUANUI HEARTY, I AM ALSO THE CO-LEADER FOR TE PATI MAORI, MOTHER OF THREE, NAN OF NINE. WE DON'T SWAP OUR HATS OUT. WE USE THE STRENGTHS. AND THAT'S THE SAD THING THAT'S GOING ON, IS THAT IF YOU ARE PART OF A COLLECTIVE COMMUNITY, WE DON'T TAKE OFF AND HAVE THE ABILITY, LIKE I THINK A LOT OF NON-MAORI DO, WHICH THEY DECIDE TO BE INDIVIDUALLY FOCUSED AND ACTING ONLY. WE COLLECTIVELY BRING ALL OUR STRENGTHS, ALL OUR EXPERIENCES, GOOD AND BAD, TO THE TABLE TO HELP OUR KAUPAPA. BUT SEE, THE WEARING THE HATS AT ALL TIMES THING, THAT'S AT THE VERY CENTRE OF THESE ALLEGATIONS AT THE MOMENT AT MANUREWA MARAE, RIGHT? WHICH PART OF HIS HAT SHOULD HE TAKE OFF? THE MIDDLE, THE FRONT OR THE BACK? WELL, THE ALLEGATION ` YOU ARE WELL AWARE OF THE ALLEGATIONS, BUT THAT IS AT THE HEART OF THE ALLEGATIONS, THAT PERHAPS PEOPLE HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE TO DISTINGUISH CLEANLY ENOUGH BETWEEN THE DIFFERENT ROLES THAT THEY HAVE AT CERTAIN TIMES AND THE ACCESS TO INFORMATION THAT THEY HAVE AS A RESULT OF THOSE DIFFERENT ROLES. I THINK FOR US AS MAORI, WE EASILY DISTINGUISH IT. WE HAVE WHISTLEBLOWERS WHO` BUT DOES THE LAW? WE HAVE WHISTLEBLOWERS WHO BELONG TO ONE GROUP. AND LET'S BE REALLY HONEST ABOUT THAT ` WHO BELONG TO ONE GROUP OF PEOPLE, TO DESTINY CHURCH, WHO HAVE GOT ISSUES, AND HAD ISSUES WAY BEFORE THIS, WHO HAVE BEEN ABLE TO GET THE ATTENTION ON MATTERS THAT ARE ACTUALLY MORE ABOUT THEIR ISSUES THAT THEY HAD VERSUS ANY OTHER TRANSPARENCY. I THINK WHAT'S REALLY IMPORTANT HERE IS THAT WHAT ARE WE REALLY DEBATING? ARE WE DEBATING JOHN TAMIHERE THE MAN, THE EXPERT? NO, WE'RE DEBATING THE APPROPRIATENESS OF HAVING THESE DIFFERENT ROLES AT THE SAME TIME ` OF, IN YOUR WORDS, OF WEARING THE SAME HAT AT ONCE. I THINK THE THING IS ABOUT, THERE ARE SO MANY OTHER PRESIDENTS OF PARTIES AND EX-LEADERS THAT COULD BE DISCUSSED. I THINK WHAT WE'VE REALLY GOT HERE IS AN OPPORTUNITY TO HAVE SOMEONE WITH EXPERIENCE ` AND LET'S REMEMBER, AT NO STAGE IS THE PARTY ROLE A FUNDED ROLE. THESE ARE US AS WHANAU COMING TOGETHER TO BRING ALL OUR STRENGTHS, EXPERIENCES, TO BE ABLE TO FOCUS ON ADVANCING OUR PEOPLE. AND THAT COMES DOWN TO PERFORMANCE OF US AS MAORI. WHAT, BECAUSE WE'RE DOING BETTER, NOW IT'S NOT OK? BECAUSE WE'VE GONE FROM ONE MP TO SIX AND HAVE GOT SIX OF THE SEVEN ELECTORATES, NOW WE'RE UP FOR SCRUTINY? IT'S ABOUT THE PERCEPTIONS, RIGHT? YEAH. AND SO, IN ADDITION TO THE ALLEGATIONS AROUND THE CENSUS DATA, Q+A'S REPORTING FOUND THAT A VEHICLE REGISTERED TO MANUREWA MARAE WAS USED AS TAKUTAI TARSH KEMP'S CAMPAIGN VEHICLE. IT WAS EMBLAZONED WITH HER FACE, TE PATI MAORI'S LOGO. SO TARSH KEMP IS OF COURSE THE FORMER CEO OF THE MARAE. WHAT CONFIDENCE DO YOU HAVE THAT ALL OF TE PATI MAORI'S CANDIDATES DECLARED ALL DONATIONS AND CAMPAIGN EXPENSES AS REQUIRED UNDER THE ELECTORAL ACT HEADING INTO THE LAST ELECTION? YEAH, LOOK, WE'RE THE ONLY PARTY THAT I KNOW OF THAT OVER-DISCLOSED ABOUT OURSELVES. AND I THINK YOU'LL GO LOOKING, AND THEY'RE JUST` WE JUST DON'T HAVE THE HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS OF SUPPORT LIKE WE SEE SOME OF THE OTHER BIG PARTIES. YOU DO HAVE TENS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS OF SUPPORT. I GUESS THE FIRST PART OF THAT QUESTION, I ABSOLUTELY SUPPORT MANUREWA MARAE ON THEIR DECISION TO DO WHAT THEY DO WITH PARTS OF THEIR KAUPAPA THAT WERE OTHERWISE NOT BEING UTILISED. AND I'LL EXPLAIN THAT. BECAUSE THAT MARAE, DURING COVID, DURING HOMELESSNESS, DURING CRISIS, DURING CLIMATE ISSUES, WEATHER ISSUES, HAVE ALWAYS BEEN THERE AND NEVER EVER, THROUGH ALL THE THINGS THEY DID, THROUGH ALL THAT HARDSHIP FOR THEIR COMMUNITY HAS IT EVER BEEN, 'HEY, YOU'RE NOT ALLOWED TO DO THIS. YOU'RE NOT ALLOWED TO DO THAT.' I TRUST THEIR ABILITY TO ASSERT THEIR MANA MOTUHAKE. I TRUST THAT THEY HAVE BACKED AND THEY'RE TRYING TO FIND SOMEBODY WHO UNDERSTANDS THE EVERYDAY ISSUES THAT THEY ARE CONTENDING WITH, AND I ABSOLUTELY BACK MANUREWA MARAE. AND I THINK THAT'S REALLY IMPORTANT TO GET OUT OF THE WAY, BECAUSE WE'VE GOT MARAE AND OUR WHANAU BENDING OVER BACKWARDS TO TRY AND GET PEOPLE TO CONNECT AND BE PART AND PARTICIPATE IN A PROCESS THAT OTHERWISE IS REALLY HARD. LOOK, COMPUTERS WENT DOWN. THEY COULDN'T VOTE PHYSICALLY AT THE LAST ELECTION. SO YOU HAD ALL SORTS OF DRAMAS. THEY ARE A PART OF THE FABRIC OF SUCCESS IN BRINGING PEOPLE TO PARTICIPATE IN ELECTIONS. AND SO THAT'S A KIND OF CRITICAL POINT, RIGHT? BECAUSE I THINK EVERYONE AGREES THEY ARE ABSOLUTELY` I DON'T KNOW IF EVERYONE AGREES, BECAUSE I DON'T THINK THAT EVERYONE RESPECTS THE FACT THAT MAORI COMMUNITIES RUN DIFFERENTLY. THEY'RE ABSOLUTELY FUNDAMENTAL TO COMMUNITIES. BUT MAYBE THIS IS THE QUESTION AT THE HEART OF ALL THIS. DO YOU THINK THAT HAVING LEADERS SUCH AS JOHN TAMIHERE HOLDING THESE DIFFERENT POSITIONS, OR THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN PEOPLE WHO'VE WORKED FOR MANUREWA MARAE WHO ARE NOW TE PATI MAORI MPs, DO YOU THINK THESE KIND OF RELATIONSHIPS AND PERCEPTIONS OVER BLURRED LINES POTENTIALLY RISK THE GREATER KAUPAPA? NO. POTENTIALLY RISK PROGRESS FOR TE IWI MAORI? NO I DON'T. IN FACT, WHAT I THINK IS THAT MAORI ARE SO USED TO SEEING BEAT-UP WHEN WE'RE DOING SOMETHING DIFFERENT AND TRYING TO BEND OVER FOR THE KAUPAPA. LET'S REMEMBER THE KAUPAPA ` MANAAKI TE TANGATA, MANAAKI TE WHANAU. THAT WAS THE KAUPAPA ` MANAAKI TO PARTICIPATE, MANAAKI TO CHOOSE SOMEBODY WHO YOU KNOW IS GOING TO BAT FOR YOUR COMMUNITY. THAT I WILL ALWAYS BACK. AND IF THAT BLURS LINES FOR OTHERS THAT DON'T UNDERSTAND HOW WE MANAAKI, THEN BE THAT ON THEM. THE REALITY IS THAT MOST OF US ARE LOOKING AT THIS, WE KNOW MAORI KAUPAPA. ANY TIME WE DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT, WE GET THE BEAT-UP. A NATIONAL MP ` $200,000, FORGOT TO DISCLOSE. NEVER BEEN SEEN. YOU MEASURE HOW MANY PEOPLE HAVE MENTIONED THAT IN THE MEDIA VERSUS MAORI FOR A VAN. HE WAS IMMEDIATELY SCOLDED BY THE PRIME MINISTER AND DISCIPLINED. I KNOW, BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY... THAT'S A RESPONSE. IT'S AN IMMEDIATE RESPONSE. THAT'S MY POINT. THAT WAS SOMETHING THAT WAS DONE WRONG. TE PATI MAORI, WE ACTUALLY, ` RAWIRI AND I ` ACTUALLY CONTACTED AND SENT SOMETHING OUT TO THE PRIME MINISTER AND TO THE POLICE, BECAUSE WE JUST SAID, LOOK, OK, LET'S JUST GO STRAIGHT TO THE TOP, LET'S REVIEW OURSELVES, GET IT REVIEWED AT THE HIGHEST LEVEL ` KA OTI ` END OF. END OFF. BUT IN FACT, WHAT YOU HAVE NOW. OH GOSH, NOT ONLY TE PATI MAORI USED THE VAN, SOMEBODY ELSE DOWN THE ROAD IN LABOUR USED THE VAN. OH MY GOSH! WHAT'S MORE IMPORTANT? HANG ON. DID SOMEONE FROM LABOUR USE THAT VAN? NO, NO, NO, NOT THAT VAN. MY POINT IS THAT WE ARE BEING SCRUTINISED FOR THE MERE FACT THAT WE ARE SUCCESSFULLY CONNECTING WITH OUR PEOPLE TO PARTICIPATE IN A CRITICAL PART OF SOMETHING THAT MAKES DECISIONS ABOUT THEIR LIVES. ON MAY 1ST YOUR COLLEAGUE, TE PATI MAORI MP MARIAMENO KAPA-KINGI ACCUSED THE GOVERNMENT OF WHITE SUPREMACY. 30 DAYS LATER TE PATI MAORI PRESIDENT JOHN TAMIHERE THANKED THAT SAME GOVERNMENT FOR $182 MILLION IN WHANAU ORA FUNDING. SO WHY WOULD A WHITE SUPREMACIST GOVERNMENT WHICH HAS SLASHED FUNDING FOR MOST DEPARTMENTS INCREASE THE WHANAU ORA SERVICE FUNDING FOR BETTERING MAORI HEALTH AND OUTCOMES? I THINK A COUPLE OF THINGS. IF YOU LOOK AT THE BUDGET, THEY ACTUALLY DIDN'T INCREASE` THEY INCREASED THE COMMISSIONING BUDGET. THAT'S RIGHT. THEY MAY HAVE INCREASED A PARTICULAR PART. BUT WHY WOULD THEY DO THAT IF THEY'RE A WHITE SUPREMACIST GOVERNMENT? BECAUSE THEY CONTRACTUALLY ARE STILL OBLIGATED TO LOOK AFTER KAUPAPA THAT ARE SUCCESSFUL. NO OTHER KAUPAPA HAS BEEN SCRUTINISED. BUT THEY'RE WHITE SUPREMACIST, AS PER YOUR LANGUAGE. WE KNOW THAT. WE'VE GOT A GOVERNMENT THAT IS GENOCIDAL, ECOCIDAL. WE KNOW THAT THEY ARE WHITE SUPREMACIST. SO EXPLAIN TO ME WHY GENOCIDAL GOVERNMENT WOULD GIVE $182 MILLION TO WHANAU ORA. BECAUSE THEY ARE OBLIGED TO. AND DON'T GO LOOKING` UNDER WHAT OBLIGATION? YES THEY BLINKING ARE. LET'S NOT GO LOOKING` UNDER WHAT OBLIGATION? UNDER SOMETHING CALLED TE TIRITI AND CONTRACTS THAT THEY HAVE FOR FIVE YEARS. BUT IF THEY'RE A GENOCIDAL GOVERNMENT, THEY DON'T CARE ABOUT TE TIRITI. IT'S NOT A 'IF'. THEY ARE. THEY ARE COMPLICIT IN WHAT'S GOING ON IN GAZA. IF YOUR WORDS, THEY DON'T CARE ABOUT TE TIRITI. WELL, THEY DON'T CARE ABOUT TE TIRITI. THAT'S WHY THEY'RE REPEALING IT. SO IF THEY DON'T CARE ABOUT TE TIRITI AND YOU'VE JUST SAID THAT THEY WERE OBLIGED TO GIVE $182M BECAUSE OF TE TIRITI, HOW DO YOU SQUARE THAT? YOU'RE ACTING, I GUESS, IN SILO, AS IF THEY HAD A PLAN B TO PUT IT SOMEWHERE ELSE. THEY'VE GOT A BOOK. THEY'VE GOT TO TICK THINGS OFF. DON'T ASSUME JUST BECAUSE ` THEY'RE A GOVERNMENT THEY CAN MAKE THEIR OWN DECISIONS. I MEAN ` YEAH, BUT THEY'RE NOT GOING TO CUT OFF THEIR NOSE TO SPITE THEIR FACE JACK, BECAUSE WHAT ARE THEY GOING TO PUT IT IN PLACE? DON'T ASSUME JUST BECAUSE THEY'RE DOING IT ` THEY COULD HOLD ON TO IT. DON'T ASSUME JUST BECAUSE THEY'RE DOING WORK THAT WE'VE WORKED HARD TO GET, THAT THEY'RE GOING TO SIT THERE AND TAKE THE CREDIT BECAUSE THEY FUNDED THAT. DON'T ASSUME THAT THAT'S NOT MORE ABOUT WHAT WAKA WHANAU ORA ARE DOING THAN IT IS THIS GOVERNMENT. WE'VE SEEN ` AND AGAIN, WE'VE SEEN GOVERNMENTS, INCLUDING WHITE SUPREMACISTS AND INCLUDING GOVERNMENTS THAT HAVE NO RESPECT FOR TANGATA WHENUA MAKING DECISIONS THAT ARE ABOUT THEIR ECONOMIC VALUE AND THEIR OUTCOMES. THIS ISN'T ABOUT THEIR RESPECT FOR MAORI. WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO EXTERMINATE A PEOPLE? OH, I MEAN, YOU'RE TALKING TO ME HERE IN TARANAKI. WHAT IT MEANS IS TO DO EVERYTHING YOU CAN TO ENSURE THEY DON'T THRIVE AND BARELY SURVIVE. AND WHEN YOU MAKE A CHOICE ` I DON'T THINK IT MEANS BARELY SURVIVED, DOES IT? I THINK EXTERMINATE, EXTERMINATE RECALLS FAR, FAR GREATER HORRORS THAN EVEN THAT. YEAH, I THINK SO, BUT AGAIN, YOU KNOW, THE POINT OF BARELY SURVIVING MEANS YOUR ABILITY TO BE ABLE TO PROCREATE AND LIVE WELL AND LIVE WELL WITHOUT PASSING ON INTER-GENERATIONAL TRAUMA ` BUT EXTERMINATE DOESN'T MEAN TO REDUCE SOMETHING SO IT BARELY SURVIVED ` I'VE GOT TO BE LIKE AN OXFORD DICTIONARY IN TODAY'S INTERVIEW. BUT I GUESS FROM MY PERSPECTIVE, BASED ON EXPERIENCE AND HISTORY, IT MEANS THAT WE DON'T HAVE ANY FUTURE. IT MEANS THAT WE DON'T HAVE ANY FUTURE. AND BY THAT, THEY'VE ENDED A WHAKAPAPA, THEY'VE ENDED A KORERO, THEY'VE ENDED OUR ABILITY TO FOCUS ON A FUTURE. AND I THINK 'EXTERMINATE' FOR ME IS REALLY TRIGGERING, FOR TARANAKI IS EXTREMELY TRIGGERING. AND I THINK WHEN YOU SEE DECISIONS BEING MADE THAT ARE DELIBERATELY GOING TO HAVE AN IMPACT ON OUR ABILITY TO CONTINUE TO BE ALIVE THEN... AND WE HAVE SEEN THOSE KORERO IN THE FACT WHAT WE KNOW WHO SUFFERS THE MOST WITH CANCERS AND THE INCREASING ` AND THE NORMALISATION OF SMOKING, THE LIFTING OF CERTAIN POLICIES THAT WERE ALL ABOUT OUR SURVIVAL, THAT WERE PLOTTED OUT ` THE FACT THAT WE CAN'T, YOU KNOW ` WHEN YOU'RE UNWELL, YOU CAN'T LEARN. WHEN YOU CAN'T LEARN, YOU CAN'T EARN. THE FACT THAT WE HAD THE HIGHEST INCARCERATED; THE HIGHEST SUFFERING FROM SUICIDES AND MENTAL UNWELLNESS ` THOSE ARE ALL CONDITIONS THAT MAKE US BE ` I GUESS THAT MAKE US UNWELL AND FOR A LOT, NOT BE HERE AT ALL. BUT WHEN YOU CONSIDER THE APPALLING HISTORY IN TARANAKI, THE WORST PART OF THIS REGION'S AND THIS ROHW'S HISTORY, THE WORST PART OF THIS REGION'S AND THIS ROHE'S HISTORY, CAN YOU HONESTLY COMPARE THE POLICIES OF TODAY'S GOVERNMENT WITH THE APPALLING ACTS OF THE PAST? THE LARGEST AMOUNT OF WHENUA THAT WE HAVE HERE IN TARANAKI IS UNDER THE OCEAN. THE LARGEST AMOUNT OF CONFISCATION IS HAPPENING TO OUR WHENUA UNDER THE MOANA. ABSOLUTELY I CAN. ABSOLUTELY I CAN. YOU GET RID OF THAT WHENUA, YOU DESTROY IT, YOU DESTROY OUR ABILITY TO NOT ONLY HAVE KAI, TO BE WELL AND TO BREATHE. ABSOLUTELY I DO, AND OUR TUPUNA AND THAT LITTLE FATHER OVER MINE, OVER THERE ON THE LEFT, WOULD EXPECT ME TO SAY THAT BECAUSE WE HAVE A GOVERNMENT THAT IS THREATENING OUR ABILITY TO EXIST. SO WHEN YOU ANNOUNCED TE NGAUKAU O TE IWI MAORI TO PARTY, AND PRAISED QUOTE, 'SEEING TANGATA TIRITI AND TANGATA WHENUA AS ONE WHICH IS THE TRUE INTENT OF TE TIRITI O WAITANGI' WHICH I THOUGHT WAS A VERY INTERESTING LINE. CAN YOU EXPLAIN TO ME, THOUGH, HOW USING THIS KIND OF LANGUAGE, USING WORDS LIKE, ' EXTERMINATE' HOW WAS THAT IN THE INTERESTS OF BRINGING PEOPLE TOGETHER? ANYONE WHO IS PROFOUNDLY INFLAMED BY THOSE STATEMENTS ARE PROBABLY NOT TANGATA TIRITI. THEY HAVE TO ASK THEMSELVES WHAT THEY ARE. I CAN ONLY BE RESPONSIBLE AS TANGATA WHENUA, AS MY PART OF THE IWI BELONG TO. IN THE FIVE MINUTES THAT I HAVE THIS SPHERE OF INFLUENCE, THAT IS WHAT I'M CARRYING ON, AND WE ARE PROVOCATEURS. IT IS NOT MY ROLE TO EDUCATE AND TO BRING PEOPLE ON BOARD, IT IS MY ROLE TO MAKE SURE THEY DO THAT WITH EACH OTHER, THEY ADDRESS THOSE WHO ARE INFLAMED, BECAUSE IF I DID THAT, I WOULD SPEND THE TIME I AM ON THE EARTH FOR SUCH A SHORT TIME TRYING TO FIX UP OTHER PEOPLE'S HAIR. AND WE ARE NOT FOCUSED ON THE VISION OF BUILDING A BETTER WORLD FOR EVERYONE. WE DID APPROACH DESTINY'S CHURCH FOR A COMMENT, BUT THEY DIDN'T COME BACK TO US. WE HAD TO EDIT A BIT FOR TIME, BUT TO SEE THE FULL INTERVIEW YOU CAN GO TO TVNZ+. WHERE YOU CAN FIND ALL OF Q+A'S WORK PLUS THE BEST OF TVNZ'S HEI AKUANEI. Q+A IS BACK AFTER THE BREAK. KUA MUTU. THAT'S Q+A FOR THIS WEEK. FROM THE Q+A TEAM, THANKS FOR WATCHING AND NGA MIHI KI A KOUTOU I NGA KARERE, THANKS FOR YOUR FEEDBACK. HEI TERA WIKI. SEE YOU NEXT SUNDAY AT 9AM. CAPTIONS BY BRIGIT KELLY AND JAMES BROWN. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ COPYRIGHT ABLE 2024