- Takina mai te kawa ko te kawa o te ora, ko te ora tenei ka whakapiki. Ko te ora tenei ka whakakake. Ko te mauri ora ka puta ki te whei ao ki te ao marama. Haumi e, hui e, taiki e. This week on The Hui... Predator free by 2050 ` is it still the government's goal? - It's as if the government doesn't care. They don't care about the environment any more. - Whilst there may be a view that we have to save every single species, it's one that we may not be able to deliver on. - Could new technology be the answer? - I don't agree that we can't save them all. I think we have to look at the technology that the world can provide. - Plus, we talk kapa haka and the draw for Te Matatini o te Kahui Maunga held in Taranaki next year with our expert panel. Captions were made with the support of NZ On Air. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2024 I whiria ai te mate hei taura kumekume i a taua te tangata ki te po. Nga mate o te wa, haere mai, haere. Tatou kei te ao marama. Tihei-wa mauri ora. And welcome back to The Hui. Aotearoa has an ambitious plan to rid our country of pests by 2050, but with millions slashed from the conservation budget, is it still achievable? A young Maori entrepreneur says he has the solution. Me anei te purongo a Meriana Johnsen. - So, every corner you go around, you're seeing a whole different beauty, eh. - Mm. - You know? And it is beautiful. ZMR47489. Making a trip report. Leaving Sugarloaf Bay ` four POB. Out to Happy Jack. - This is Lennie's happy place ` off the west coast of the Coromandel. - It was different back in the day. We didn't have this rat trouble. - One of 11 islands in the Motukawao collective. This spot here is quite significant for you and your people. - Yeah, it is. It's pretty spiritual up there, you know, for me to be walking up there, and it's absolutely beautiful. You can see why they had these outposts in the day, given the 360 view. - As chair of the Island Trust, Lennie realised he had a challenge ahead of him. - The problem was the rats. They were just sort of running around at your feet. This has happened over the last 50 years. - There are more possums in New Zealand than there are sheep. Um, so we're not` - How many? - Approximately 70 million. - Possums, stoats and rats are pest populations decimating native forest and birds. The Predator Free by 2050 national mission aims to eliminate all three. It is lauded internationally, but now this government is pouring cold water on the plan. - It's as if, you know, the government doesn't care. They don't care about the environment any more. - Whilst there may be a view that we have to save every single species, I think that that actually is a very aspirational and ambitious objective, and it's one that we may not be able to deliver on. So we have to be very careful before we say every single species is going to be saved. - I don't agree that we can't save them all. I think we have to look at the technology that the world can provide. - Technology that is here in our own backyard. This young Maori entrepreneur is pushing boundaries and pest control. - We call ourselves Kiwis, right? Surely we should be able to see kiwi. We see more possums in the environment than we do our native bird. We don't call ourselves possums, and we don't want to. - Cameron Baker got his start in the army. So you were a drone pilot at that time? - Yes. Yeah. Yeah, we were using small types of drones for surveillance in the military. It was new. It was novel. - And you got asked ` would you be interested in applying those to conservation? - Yeah, in the Galapagos Islands, of all places. This was the first time in the world that it was a successful operation using drone technology. It proved that we could half the cost of doing your old baits to eradicate the rats, which was huge. It meant half the cost. - His technology has been embraced all over the world. - We've done 21 islands to date in six years. - So what are we packing this gear up for? - So our team is heading off to the Marshall Islands to do another island eradication project. There is no repair facilities once you get to the islands. So that's why our drones look as basic as they can possibly get. We put our automated tools around the island as well, so an animal would have to interact with this device. It would get a shot of toxin on to its abdomen, and they'll groom it off naturally. And then they'll walk away into their burrows and die. So that forms the virtual wall so that we can defend what we've just gained. And then once that habitat's defended, whilst it can naturally regenerate, we accelerate it. So we come through and we put down native seed pods, which just reintroduces the stock, the fruiting trees, so that we can encourage birds to come back and do that job. - Has it been as easy to get this technology utilised in Aotearoa as it has been overseas? - Not at all. - Why do you think that is? - We've grown up with the tools that we've been traditionally given, and people are very comfortable with that. - When I see people having to go offshore with their products and they're not being recognised here, it's sort of sad, really. - Thank you. - (EXCLAIMS, CHUCKLES) For now, Lennie and his team have to set traps by foot. So there's no rats in the trap today. But can you tell if there've been rats around anyway? - Yeah, there's still been a few around. Had some poison over there, and they ate that. We got that card up there too, which they leave prints in there. - Because of the narrowness and the steepness of those gullies, only a drone can get into those areas close enough, rather than a chopper sitting up above and just going, you know, splatter. - Are DOC supportive of this? - They weren't at the start. By no means were they, uh, supportive. I think that's an ongoing issue, quietly. But we need this technology used. - Do you feel like these departments are catching up with technology? - No. No way. No, but that's a typical New Zealand thing. That's the way we are, you know? Yeah, and the negativity will always come. - If we say, hand on heart, we're going to save every single species, that'll cost ` I don't know, I wouldn't want to imagine the cost ` but that is literally hundreds of billions, maybe trillions of dollars. And I don't think we're in that space. I think we're in a much more practical space. - The original estimate to achieve the Predator Free goal was $32 billion. But with new technology coming through, that cost has been slashed by a third. Do you believe that the methods that you've developed will lead to 100% eradication? - 100%, yeah. I believe that we can achieve that Predator Free 2050 by that date. - So are there any other purposes for this drone technology? Drones are very popular in warfare now. - They are. - Will we see any Envico drones showing up? - No, you will not. - Never? - No. There's a big enough war happening on nature. That's our target. - And this is why they do it. - We're just about the only ones that have a permanent population of gannets all year round. So they don't disappear, and they're absolutely majestic, you know. With this eradication process that we go through, once we get there, it's going to make it easier for us to return our native species back like tuatara. I think they'll thrive back on the islands again, and that'll be great. You know, that's what we're after. That's our vision. My ideal plan would be to open these islands up for eco tourism to let people enjoy what we enjoy being there. - Biodiversity as a whole is the... the web of life. Our food comes from biodiversity. The clean water that we drink, the air that we breathe is all related in the web of life, of biodiversity. Without biodiversity, without protecting it, we don't have clean water; we don't have food sustainability; we don't have clean air to breathe. If I can work myself out of a job, we've probably saved the world. And I mean, that would be an ultimate goal. - Now, in a statement, the Department of Conservation told The Hui the Predator Free 2050 goal remains unchanged. It said the impact on predator control of the $31 million drop in its baseline funding has yet to be determined. DOC has funded the development of 15 new pest control tools, including $1 million in funding for Envico to develop a drone for larger areas. However, it says drone technology cannot yet replace helicopters in remote areas. E te iwi, kia u tonu mai. Stay with The Hui. After the break, the CEO of Te Tira Whakamataki, Melanie Mark-Shadbolt, is live in studio. Hoki mai ano. He hui haumaru taiao te aronga nui a Te Hui iaianei. Te Tira Whakamataki ` The Maori Biodiversity Network is an independent, not-for-profit working to protect the taiao. So who better to talk now than its CEO? Melanie Mark-Shadbolt is with us live in studio. E te tumu whakarae, tena koe. - Ae. - Welcome to the Hui. Let's ask the obvious question. Predator Free 2050 ` achievable? - Yes and no. Yes, definitely achievable, but probably not by 2050. - Why not? - I don't think we've invested enough money in it. As, you know, the news item before showed. And I think that we need to bring communities on board. So a lot of the technologies that Cameron is talking about and others are talking about, especially in the gen-tech space, rely on social licence. They rely on communities wanting those technologies in their backyards. And you will know as well as many people watching will know, New Zealanders by and large have a bit of an aversion to toxins being dumped from the sky on to their property. So there's lots of conversations that need to be had before we can scale up to the level of` you know, to the level we need to do to eradicate by 2050. - It seems, though, that the technology is working, right, and the technology is here now. So should it be done in conjunction with people on the ground and boots on the ground? - Definitely. Yeah. You can't do it without people as well. I mean, Predator Free relies on goodwill and it relies on people buying into the kaupapa. That's why we have it. That's why it's an ambitious goal. People want it and people are motivated. And by and large, in New Zealand, the biggest investment we have in conservation and in environmental management is people on the ground. It's communities giving their time and their own money to these efforts. - Are you looking at this from a much more direct kaitiakitanga responsibility perspective as well as an employment perspective now? - Both, yeah. Definitely. Communities who care about their places, the things that define them, they are the ones that work on the ground to eradicate pests. They work to eradicate moths or butterflies or fruit flies or whatever incursions hit their whenua, their communities. Maori and non-Maori are the people who drive governments and drive politicians to make this a priority. - And when Cam says things like, 'We can save endangered species,' do you agree? Just the time factor is the issue here? - Definitely, yeah. Yeah. - So when the minister says` (CHUCKLES) the Minister of Conservation says that we might not be able to do that, that the goal is aspirational, but we might not be able to afford that, what do you say? - Yeah. Again, you know, I completely understand where that comment comes from. Uh, there are a lot of species to save. We have 4000 species in New Zealand that are at risk, threatened, one of the highest rates in the world, if not the highest. So there's a lot of work to be done, and it's going to cost a lot of money. And at the moment we don't prioritise conservation or the environment in New Zealand; we prioritise other spaces and places. And if you look at the budget of the Department of Conservation versus the budget of the Ministry for Primary Industries, you can see that exact correla` You know, you can see that exact decision of where we're going to invest. So, you know, we need to prioritise investment in conservation if we want to save species. But it's a naive comment. That's all I say. It's a naive comment. - Do you` So do you think we need to get real here? - Yep, we do. - Aotearoa get real? - Yeah. I think that everyday Kiwis are probably unaware of how bad our environment is and how much is at stake and how much is threatened. We see good news stories, and we're really good at conservation in New Zealand compared to some other places. We're really good at telling the story of what we're doing and saving our endangered birds in particular. It's a really feel-good story that we can sell to the world, but we're not telling the other stories about everything else that we're losing every day. You know, and conservation is a web. And that's what Cam said right at the end. Ecosystem is a web, and it's all interconnected. So if you're not saving the ngangara, then you're not saving the manu. And they all have to be` They're all equally important if we want our ecosystems to work. - Can I ask you about matauranga Maori here? Because I know Te Tira Whakamataki has done some real work ` Kura Reo o Taiao, for example ` one that I attended in Rotorua not too long ago. So there's been a real exploration into matauranga Maori. Are these solutions seriously being looked at as a way that can help us potentially achieve Predator Free by a certain date and time as well? - In our communities and at place, they're definitely being taken seriously. When we're examining our own purakau all the time to look for connections in our whakapapa to see where solutions might lie, we're also examining, you know, our traditional trapping methodologies and how we used to look after our mara. So all of those have been looked at by people at place, by our communities, by our hapu and by our iwi. They're not being scaled up and they're not being taken seriously in terms of investment in the research that aligns it and how it can be integrated` wraps around it, and how we can integrate it into everyday, you know, conservation practices. - So are you saying when we talk about 'get real Aotearoa', that one of the solutions that we need to get real about is matauranga Maori? - Yeah, we need every knowledge system. So yes. - OK. Can I ask about DOC estate? - Yeah. - And uh, what some people call the potential others might call the threat of mining on DOC estate. Your view? - Uh, yeah. I'm against mining on the DOC estate. I'm against exploiting the DOC estate for economic gain, in large part because we've only got 30% of our land in conservation estate right now, and we can't afford to lose any more. So I would be adverse to giving up good biodiversity land for, I guess, for industries that still aren't proven. We don't know how much of that money will stay onshore. Some of the research has said that at least some 4% of the money actually stays on shore. So I'm sceptical around the economics. But I also have heard the rhetoric that we can give up some of the PCL land ` some of the more rubbish land for mining, and I don't think that that's honest either. I don't think that we're actually going to give up rubbish land for mining. We want the good land on the coast. I know that communities are probably seeing this as a win for them, and potentially it's going to grow the regional economy. And I understand that. But I think there are other ways around it. You know, we've talked about ecotourism briefly as well. Yeah. - Mel, thank you. Thank you for your time. I really appreciate it. Tena koe i o korero. - Kia ora. - Nga mihi nui ki a koe. Mel Mark-Shadbolt there. Kei ita tonu mai e te iwi. He whakata te haere ake nei. Ngai ake tera, he korero kapa haka. Legends ` heroes of my kapa haka world ` Mercia, Dawn Yates and Hemi Tai Tim are with us after this. - Nau mai ano ra e te iwi. Next year's Te Matatini o Te Kahui Maunga will be the largest ever. A draw held at the weekend in Ngaruawahia reveal the 55 senior kapa haka that will take to the stage at Pukekura in Nga Motu in Taranaki in February next year. The draw followed two days of wananga discussing the future of te ao haka. With me now are my kapa haka heroes ` kia pono te korero ` Mercia Dawn Yates and Hemi Tai Tin. Tena korua. Nau mai aku rangatira. Seriously, heroes. - (CHUCKLES) - Thank you for being here. The draw yesterday, Murcia ` lots of social media comment. It was popping off, apparently, to use a phrase of the rangatahi. Thoughts, views? - Well, all I can say is I have to give a little shout out here to the guy that shouted the loudest when Rangiwewehi were called out. (LAUGHS) - You're not meant to talk to just about Rangiwewehi! (LAUGHS) - Well, let's go there first. - OK, OK, OK. - Then I can cover myself. Uh, what a draw. What an opportunity for us as well. Different this year, obviously. My kids had a view on, you know, gone are the... - Lateral. Lateral. - ...the lateral way of working the pools back into a four-day pool composition. I think, you know, we've got Te Ropu Manutaki leading out the charge on the first day on Tuesday. I think in general, the overall feeling has been really, really positive. E rawe te korero. Ae. - Ka pai. Hemi, pehea o whakaaro? - Hoia ra. Ko takoto ke nga raupapatanga. Me mahi te mahi. - (SPEAKS TE REO MAORI) (LAUGHS) - (SPEAKS TE REO MAORI) - Ae. - Pono. Pono. - No, no. Mahi tika. Can I ask, Mercia ` one pool, three Te Arawa ropu. And I'll ask Hemi about the three (CHUCKLES) Tamaki groups in one pool, even though Te Taha Tu's on the same day as Ngati Rangiwewehi. But what do you make of that? I mean, is there a better way to do this? Even though this was quite random... - Yes. - ...is there a better way to do this, do you think? - It is what it is. I te mutunga. For our whanau back home, we're going, 'Yay!' We only have to come for one day to go and watch the teams that we need to go and watch, if you know what I mean. So from that perspective, it's a... it is what it is. Yep. I can't` I can't say anything more than that. Uh, and also for... our other... Te Arawa kapa, cos obviously, you know, we've got six, uh, heading to te Kahui Maunga, that then also provides an opportunity for those of us who are all on one day to potentially support. - Note how I didn't ask about Te Hikuwai one day and Rangiwewehi` (LAUGHS) - On the same day. We're on the same day. - Tamatane, they're on the same day. Hemi, toru nga kapa o Tamaki roto i te puna kotahi. - (SPEAKS TE REO MAORI) (LAUGHTER) (BOTH SPEAK TE REO MAORI) ...conspiracy theory, ne? - (LAUGHS) Ne? (BOTH SPEAK TE REO MAORI) (LAUGHTER) (SPEAKS TE REO MAORI) - (SPEAKS TE REO MAORI) - Tena koe. Me whakawhanui, if I can, if we can talk about the wananga. So this was an exciting opportunity ` two-day wananga to talk about kapa haka. Man, there was some awesome korero from legends. - Ae, yes. - Legends like yourselves for me. But, you know, legends of your world, of your world. So let's talk about that. You attended, I think it was the Saturday. - Friday, Saturday, yeah. - The Friday. Um, what did you make of it? - Uh, he rawe. He rawe hoki te rongo i a Paraone e korero mai te oro ko hanga o tenei o nga huihuinga. So just great to hear how this came about. And it came` It was born out of a desire which a seed was sown for Paraone back in Te Arawa. Uh, late 1990s, Te Arawa had a hui, so that had resonated for Paraone for some time. So to have the opportunity now to bring all of our, uh, different members from across the motu, uh ` who might have been in tutor roles, leadership roles, kaihaka roles ` to listen to the greatest, you know, you can't go past Auntie Tangiwai and Turihira and Te Rita. You know, that was a magic session to be present to and listening to them. And Tihi! - And Auntie Tihi. - Oh my gosh. - (SPEAKS TE REO MAORI) (LAUGHTER) Yeah, no, pono. Pono. They were mean. - Iwi humarie, iwi humarie. - (LAUGHS, SPEAKS TE REO MAORI) - And then to have breakout sessions like we did on the Friday, which allowed the individuals to then start talking specifically about, what is it? What is it that you want to see? How do you want to see Te Matatini evolve? - (SPEAKS TE REO MAORI) - (SPEAKS TE REO MAORI) (BOTH SPEAK TE REO MAORI) - (SPEAKS TE REO MAORI) - (SPEAKS TE REO MAORI) - (SPEAKS TE REO MAORI) - Mercia, can I talk to you about one of the ideas? Well, there's a few ideas that came out. One in particular seemed to resonate with people. So I wanna get your views. - They got the one clap. - Uh, one clap, yeah. Rob Ruha mentioned we should have 40 teams but 60 performers in each team ` could that work? - Hemi and I were just having a korero about that. - OK. - (LAUGHS) And yes, it could work, but I still think that there... I waenga i tenei ahuatanga o te whakataetae, I think 50's a good enough number on stage. I understand the importance of also having our rangatahi come through. So I think that's a great opportunity for us to be thinking about. I would still like to challenge the whakataetae space, cos I think I even mentioned it the last time I was on around having pools of genre as opposed to, you know, like, let's really open this up, because we don't see the super 12 or that really, um... tera momo o te momo auaha, uh, exhibited on our stages any more. The kata ore who would come on with all of their, um, big props. You know, I'd love to see that explored more. And I do believe for the future of Matatini that we really need to start looking at other opportunities to grow and harness taha tu you know, tera ao o te ao tawhito. - Mm. - Mm. - Hemi, he patai ano... (SPEAKS TE REO MAORI) (SPEAKS TE REO MAORI) - (SPEAKS TE REO MAORI) - (SPEAKS TE REO MAORI) - (SPEAKS TE REO MAORI) - I've lost what I was going to ask you next, but this has been awesome. I just wanted to say. And I want to thank you both for coming on the programme. I really appreciate it. Apparently, there's going to be another hui next year. Uh, will you both be at Matatini next year? Hei kaihaka? - E tumanako. (EXCLAIMS) (LAUGHTER) - As a performer? Judge? Kaiwhakawa? - Kei te mutu tena tau. - Ae, te mutunga. Ka tika. - E oku rangatira, my heroes, tena korua. Thank you for inspiring my generation, even though we're the same generation! - (LAUGHS) - You've been inspirational for me. Tena korua. Those were our kapa haka experts ` Mercia Yates and Hemi Tai Tin. Hei te wiki e tu mai nei e hoa ma. Coming up next week on The Hui... The country's longest and costliest inquiry. - When I saw how the Royal Commission was panning out, I wanted to give up. - They waited a lifetime to tell their stories. - We've uncovered something that's been kept a secret for so long. - Now will the state deliver? - We all want change. I just hope we're not gonna be speaking on deaf ears. - He hui nui whakaharahara pou te kaha hei te wiki e tu mai nei e te ao marama. Until next week, kia mau ki te turanga o Taputapuatea. Haumi e, hui e, taiki e. Captions by Able. Captions were made with the support of NZ On Air. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2024 - Ko te reo te take. - Na Te Puna Whakatongarewa Te Hui i tautoko.