CAPTIONS BY COURTNEY SOLE AND BRIGIT KELLY. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ COPYRIGHT ABLE 2024 TENA KOUTOU, NAU MAI, HAERE MAI. WELCOME TO Q+A. I'M JOHN CAMPBELL SITTING IN FOR JACK TAME, WHO'S HAVING A WELL-EARNED HOLIDAY. THIS MORNING ` CHILDREN. AFTER THE ROYAL COMMISSION, WE LOOK AT THE KIDS AT RISK RIGHT NOW. YOU HAVE A CHILD WHO IS IN PRIMARY SCHOOL WHO'S DONE THE REALLY BRAVE THING, THE REALLY HARD THING ` THEY'VE ASKED FOR HELP, THEY'VE SAID WHAT'S HAPPENING; ALL OF THE GROWN-UPS IN THEIR LIVES NEED TO SPRINT TO SOLVE THAT PROBLEM AND NONE OF THEM CAN. TOUCH AN IMPORTANT INTERVIEW. WE ASK WHERE THE LINE SHOULD BE DRAWN BETWEEN FREE SPEECH AND CENSORSHIP. AND THE GLOBAL HEAD OF UNICEF, ON CHILDREN, CLIMATE CHANGE, AND WAR. SO I WORRY ALL THE TIME ABOUT WHAT THE IMPACT IS ON OUR PEOPLE BUT IT'S DANGEROUS WORK. WE'LL HAVE THAT INTERVIEW FOR YOU SHORTLY, BUT WE BEGIN TODAY WITH ORANGA TAMARIKI, THE MINISTRY FOR CHILDREN. WITH THE REPORT OF THE ROYAL COMMISSION OF INQUIRY INTO ABUSE IN CARE RELEASED THIS WEEK, THERE IS A STARK WARNING FROM THE ORGANISATIONS THAT LOOK AFTER OUR MOST AT-RISK CHILDREN, NOW, THROUGH COUNSELLING, FOSTER CARE, SEXUAL VIOLENCE PREVENTION, AND SUPPORT SERVICES FOR VULNERABLE FAMILIES AND THOSE TRANSITIONING OUT OF CARE. ORGANISATIONS THAT CONTRACT TO ORANGA TAMARIKI HAVE BEEN IN LIMBO, OPERATING WITHOUT A CLEAR SENSE OF WHETHER THEIR CONTRACTS WILL BE RENEWED, AND SOME DOING THE JOB PURELY THROUGH GOODWILL AND A SENSE THAT IF THEY DON'T LOOK AFTER THE KIDS, NOBODY WILL. I SPOKE TO SEVERAL PROVIDERS IN THAT SITUATION THIS WEEK, NONE OF WHOM WOULD GO ON THE RECORD FOR FEAR OF GETTING OFFSIDE WITH THE MINISTRY IF THEY SPOKE OUT PUBLICLY. BUT THE COUNCIL OF CHRISTIAN SOCIAL SERVICES, WHO REPRESENT MORE THAN 230 CHARITABLE ORGANISATIONS, DON'T HAVE THAT RISK. ON THURSDAY I SAT DOWN WITH CHRISTIAN SOCIAL SERVICES KAIWHAKAHAERE MATUA, OR CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER, NIKKI HURST, AND STARTED BY ASKING HER HOW CLOSE SOME ORGANISATIONS ARE TO THE BREAKING POINT. CURRENTLY, THEY'RE ALL WAITING. UM, WHAT HAPPENED WAS WE HAD AN INDICATION FROM ORANGA TAMARIKI BACK IN MARCH THAT CONTRACTS WERE GOING TO BE LOOKED AT, UM, FOR THE PEOPLE WHOSE CONTRACTS WERE DUE TO END 30TH JUNE. WHEN WE DUG INTO THAT A BIT MORE, WHAT WE FOUND OUT WAS ORANGA TAMARIKI WERE NOT ABLE, FROM THEIR PERSPECTIVE, TO LET ANYONE KNOW UNTIL THE BUDGET WHETHER OR NOT THEY WERE GOING TO HAVE A CONTRACT GOING INTO THE NEXT FINANCIAL YEAR, BEING 30TH JUNE. PEOPLE HAD NO CERTAINTY ONE WAY OR ANOTHER UNTIL THE 27TH OF JUNE. AND THE 27TH OF JUNE WAS THE THURSDAY BEFORE MATARIKI WEEKEND. SO SOME PEOPLE RECEIVED AN EMAIL IN THE MORNING SAYING, 'YOUR CONTRACT WILL NOT BE RENEWED.' OTHERS RECEIVED AN INDICATION IN THE AFTERNOON THAT THERE WOULD BE A NEW CONTRACT, BUT NO FURTHER DETAILS. SUBSEQUENTLY, WE'VE HEARD FROM ORANGA TAMARIKI THAT CONTRACTS SHOULD BE OUT TO PEOPLE WHO ARE HAVING THEIR CONTRACTS RENEWED BY THE 31ST OF JULY. BUT HERE WE ARE TODAY ON THE 25TH OF JULY, AND I HAVEN'T HEARD FROM ANYONE WHO HAS A CONTRACT. SO, I'M HOLDING HERE ` AND EMBARRASSINGLY, I COUNTED THE LINES ON THE PAGE AND THEN MULTIPLIED THAT BY THE NUMBER OF PAGES ` ROUGHLY A THOUSAND CURRENT CONTRACTOR PROVIDER SERVICES AS AT THE END OF MARCH, MIDDLE OF MARCH, WHOSE CONTRACTS WERE EXPIRING AROUND THE PERIOD YOU'RE DESCRIBING. YEAH. YEAH. SO ROUGHLY 1000 CONTRACTS. HOW MANY OF THESE PEOPLE, HOW MANY OF THESE CONTRACTS WILL KNOW WHAT THEY'RE DOING NOW? UM, NOBODY WILL KNOW FOR SURE. SO THEY WILL HAVE HAD AN INDICATION WHETHER OR NOT THEY WERE GOING TO GO AHEAD OR NOT. UM, THE ONLY INFORMATION THAT WE CAN ACTUALLY FIND IS THAT THE BUDGET TALKS ABOUT A $30 MILLION REDUCTION. PER ANNUM OVER FOUR YEARS, WHICH IS $120 MILLION IN TOTAL. YEAH. YEAH. AND SO IS THIS ABOUT WAITING TO SEE HOW THAT SPENDING IS GOING TO BE REDUCED? YEAH. SO THAT BUDGET LINE TALKS ABOUT A SHIFT FROM FEE-FOR-SERVICE CONTRACTS THROUGH TO OUTCOME AGREEMENTS AND CLAWING BACK AN UNDERSPEND. THE REALITY IS THERE IS NO UNDERSPEND. YOU KNOW, WE HAVE MEMBERS ACROSS THE COUNTRY WHO CONSISTENTLY TELL US THEY HAVE SUBSTANTIAL WAITING LISTS. THEY NEED MORE SUPPORT, NOT LESS; MORE FUNDING, NOT LESS. AND THE SHIFT FROM FEE-FOR-SERVICE CONTRACTS TO OUTCOME AGREEMENTS WOULD BE GREAT BECAUSE THEY TEND TO BE LONGER TERM. BUT WHEN WE LOOK AT ORANGA TAMARIKI IN THE BUDGET, WE CAN'T SEE A CORRESPONDING INCREASE THAT IT WOULD MAKE SENSE AS A SHIFT FROM THESE CONTRACTS TO THAT CONTRACT. SO IT JUST FEELS INCREDIBLY UNCLEAR. AND HOW IS THAT LACK OF CLARITY MANIFESTING NOW ON THE FRONT LINE? WHAT ARE YOU HEARING? WE'RE HEARING A LOT OF DISTRESS. WHAT WE'RE ACTUALLY SEEING IN REALITY IS FOR PEOPLE WHO NO LONGER HAVE CONTRACTS MOVING FORWARD, SOME OF THEM REALLY, GENUINELY DID NOT FIND OUT UNTIL THE LAST MINUTE, WHEN THEY RANG UP THE ORANGA TAMARIKI OFFICE, THE REGIONAL OFFICE, ON THE MONDAY WHEN EVERYONE RETURNED TO WORK TO SAY, 'WHAT DO WE DO NOW? 'WE'VE GOT NO DIRECTION AROUND HOW DO WE TRANSITION THE TAMARIKI WHO MIGHT BE IN OUR CARE OUT TO ANOTHER SERVICE 'OR TO CONTINUE UNTIL WE FINISH WORKING WITH THEM.' A LOT OF THE PEOPLE WHO OUR MEMBERS SPOKE TO HAD NO IDEA THAT WAS GOING TO HAPPEN. SO THE ACTUAL REGIONAL OFFICES OF ORANGA TAMARIKI WERE UNCLEAR ON WHO HAD CONTRACTS AND WHO DIDN'T. I'M SORRY TO INTERRUPT, BUT YOU USED A REALLY STRIKING AND QUITE CONFRONTING PHRASE THEN, WHICH WAS, 'HOW DO WE TRANSITION THE TAMARIKI 'WHO WERE IN OUR CARE TO SOMEWHERE ELSE?' YEAH. WHAT'S HAPPENING TO THOSE TAMARIKI? YEAH. SO WHERE PEOPLE HAVE, UM, THE ABILITY TO CONTINUE WORKING WITH THEM, THEY WILL CONTINUE WORKING WITH THEM. BUT FOR SOME PROVIDERS, ALL OF THEIR FUNDING COMES FROM ORANGA TAMARIKI. AND FOR SOME PROVIDERS, ALL OF THAT FUNDING HAS GONE, OR THE FUNDING THAT'S GONE IS TO THE LEVEL THAT THEY CAN'T CONTINUE. IT'S UNTENABLE. SO WHAT'S HAPPENING TO THESE CHILDREN? EVERYONE'S DOING THEIR BEST. THE WONDERFUL THING ABOUT COMMUNITY IS EVERYONE DOES WORK TOGETHER, AND EVERYONE STAYS IN RELATIONSHIP WITH EACH OTHER AND EVERYTHING IS HIGH TRUST. SO IDEALLY WHAT HAPPENS IS PROVIDER A RINGS UP PROVIDER B AND SUPPORTS THAT TRANSITION ACROSS ` WHERE THAT'S POSSIBLE. AND THAT'S ONE OF THE MAJOR ISSUES. WE DON'T BELIEVE THAT DECISION-MAKING HAS BEEN MADE IN SUCH A WAY AS BEING ABLE TO IDENTIFY WHAT EACH COMMUNITY ACTUALLY NEEDS AND WHAT SERVICES WILL OR WON'T CONTINUE IN EACH COMMUNITY. SO FOR INSTANCE, IF` I TRAINED AS A COUNSELLOR; I USED TO WORK WITH CHILDREN MYSELF. AND SO IF I WAS WORKING WITH A CHILD, THAT ONLY WORKED BECAUSE I COULD BUILD A RELATIONSHIP WITH THEM. IT'S NOT AS SIMPLE AS ME JUST SAYING TO THEM, 'LOOK, WE'RE CLOSING. GO AND SEE JOHN DOWN THE ROAD. 'NEXT WEEK HE'LL PICK UP YOUR CASE.' IT DOESN'T WORK LIKE THAT. BECAUSE THESE ARE VULNERABLE CHILDREN WHO ARE IN THE CARE OF THE STATE OR THESE AGENCIES OR THE PEOPLE YOU REPRESENT. YEAH. AND SO THE IDEA THAT WE JUST MOVE THEM AROUND IN THE WAY THAT YOU MIGHT PUT YOUR CAT IN CARE WHILE YOU WERE HAVING A HOLIDAY... YEAH. ..IS AN ANATHEMA TO WHAT THESE CHILDREN REQUIRE, ISN'T IT? ABSOLUTELY. YEAH. BUT IT'S ACROSS THE SPECTRUM, RIGHT? SO YES, ABSOLUTELY THERE ARE CHILDREN WHO ARE IN CARE RESIDENCES RIGHT NOW WHERE THE PEOPLE PROVIDING THAT CARE ARE WONDERING HOW THEY'RE GOING TO CONTINUE WITH THE FUNDING. WE KNOW THAT SOME OF THE ORGANISATIONS THAT HAVE BEEN IMPACTED ARE 24-7 TEEN PARENTING UNITS. SO WE KNOW THAT THERE IS SOME SORT OF CHALLENGE FOR THOSE PLACES TO STAY OPEN. SORRY, CAN YOU CLARIFY? SO THERE ARE 24-7 PARENTING UNITS? YES. WHERE CHILDREN ARE LIVING... YES. ....THAT HAVE RUN OUT OF FUNDING... YES. YEAH. ...AND WHAT'S HAPPENING TO THOSE CHILDREN? THE SERVICES ARE CONTINUING TO SUPPORT THEM FOR AS LONG AS THEY CAN. AND... AND, YOU KNOW, THIS IS, I GUESS, WHERE IT GETS REALLY CHALLENGING BECAUSE THERE IS NO... BECAUSE THERE'S NO TRANSPARENCY FROM ORANGA TAMARIKI AROUND WHAT THE CRITERIA FOR DECISION-MAKING WAS, WE CAN'T PROVE ANYTHING. WE CAN'T SORT OF SAY, 'WELL, ACTUALLY, THIS WORKS 'AND THIS DELIVERS.' AND UM, THE REALLY ODD THING IS, YOU KNOW, WE'RE HAVING GOVERNMENTS MOVING INTO A SOCIAL INVESTMENT APPROACH, UM, WHICH POTENTIALLY COULD BE FANTASTIC. YOU KNOW, IF WE GO BACK TO WHAT PROFESSOR GLUCKMAN DESCRIBED IT AS, IT'S GIVING CHILDREN WHATEVER THEY NEED FOR HOWEVER LONG FOR GOOD OUTCOMES. PROFESSOR GLUCKMAN SAID THAT IN 2017, DIDN'T HE? YEAH. BUT HE ALSO SAID, 'WE NEED TO SPEND A LOT OF MONEY,' RIGHT? WE NEED TO SPEND A LOT OF MONEY. OK. YEAH. AND WE NEED TO BE THERE FOR AS LONG AS POSSIBLE. AND SO SOMETHING LIKE A 24-7 TEEN PARENT UNIT IS EXACTLY WHERE YOU SPEND THAT MONEY. THAT'S WHERE YOU POUR THE ATTENTION AND SUPPORT INTO, SO THAT NOT ONLY THOSE YOUNG ADULTS HAVE GOOD OUTCOMES, BUT THAT THE CHILDREN THAT THEY'RE HAVING HAVE AWESOME OUTCOMES. SO TO FIND OUT THAT SERVICES LIKE THAT ARE UNFUNDED AND AREN'T EVEN ABLE TO MAKE THEIR CASE THAT, YOU KNOW, 'WE'RE GOOD VALUE FOR MONEY', OR 'WE HAVE GOOD OUTCOMES' OR 'WE PROVIDE A USEFUL SERVICE' JUST GOES COUNTER TO WHAT WE'RE HEARING THE GOVERNMENT ASK PEOPLE TO DO. IT ALSO GOES COUNTER TO EVERYTHING THAT WE WERE TOLD YESTERDAY, DOESN'T IT? YEAH. I MEAN, THE TIMING OF THIS IS SO STRIKING IN THE CONTEXT OF THE ROYAL COMMISSION OF INQUIRY INTO ABUSE IN CARE. YEAH. AND I THOUGHT THE PRIME MINISTER MADE, ACTUALLY, A REALLY EXCELLENT SPEECH IN THE HOUSE YESTERDAY. BUT ESSENTIALLY, HE WAS SAYING THIS CANNOT HAPPEN AGAIN. NO. YOU'RE TELLING ME A FORM OF IT IS HAPPENING AS WE SPEAK. ABSOLUTELY. YEAH. THERE IS A LACK OF VISIBILITY OVER CHILDREN IN AOTEAROA NEW ZEALAND THAT WITH EVERY REDUCTION OF FUNDING INCREASES THAT LACK OF VISIBILITY. THE ONLY WAY THAT WE CAN CONTINUE TO KEEP TAMARIKI SAFE IN AOTEAROA, WHETHER THEY'RE IN CARE OR NOT, IS EVERYONE IN THE COMMUNITY BEING ABLE TO KNOW THAT THOSE CHILDREN ARE CARED FOR AND LOVED AND LOOKED AFTER. WHEN WE REDUCE FUNDING, WE REDUCE THE ADULTS IN THEIR LIVES. (SIGHS) CAN YOU...? ARE YOU HEARING FROM THE FRONT LINE SPECIFIC STORIES ` I DON'T WANT YOU TO IDENTIFY ANYONE ` ABOUT CHILDREN WHO ARE NOW IN POSITIONS OF PERIL, ESSENTIALLY? YEAH. UM, AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I'M REALLY GRATEFUL FOR AT THIS MOMENT IN TIME IS WE HAVE A REALLY STRONG INDEPENDENT CHILDREN'S MONITOR IN AROTURUKI. SO AT A VERY SYSTEMIC LEVEL, WE CAN GO BACK TO THEIR DATA AND SAY, WE KNOW THAT THESE CHALLENGES ARE STILL HAPPENING, AND WE HOPE THAT ON THE BACK OF THE ROYAL COMMISSION, THEY WILL HAVE MORE ABILITY TO REALLY HOLD TO ACCOUNT WHAT'S HAPPENING IN THAT SPACE. BUT THE STORIES WITHIN THEIR NUMBERS INCLUDE THINGS LIKE ONE THAT I HEARD EARLIER THIS YEAR WAS A YOUNG PERSON WHO DID THE RIGHT THING. HE GOT REALLY, REALLY BRAVE, AND HE TOLD HIS SCHOOL TEACHER THAT HIS STEPFATHER WAS PHYSICALLY ASSAULTING HIM. HE REPEATED THAT TO HIS HEADMASTER, AND THEY DID THE RIGHT THING ` THEY MADE A REPORT OF CONCERN TO ORANGA TAMARIKI. THEY TOLD THEM WHAT WAS HAPPENING. THE PART OF AOTEAROA THAT THEY LIVE IN HAS ITS OWN CHALLENGES AND IS UNDER ITS OWN STRESSES, AND THE LOCAL ORANGA TAMARIKI OFFICE DIDN'T HAVE THE RESOURCES TO RESPOND TO THAT CHILD. WHAT HAPPENED WAS THE CHILD WAS PUT ON A 21-DAY NOTICE, WHICH IS 21 DAYS UNTIL WE HAVE A FAMILY GROUP CONFERENCE, AND WE ALL TALK ABOUT THIS TOGETHER. THAT'S NORMALLY WHAT GETS PROPOSED WHEN THERE IS A WAY TO KEEP THAT CHILD SAFE IN THE HOME; THERE MIGHT BE ANOTHER RESPONSIBLE ADULT. QUICKLY, WAS THIS CHILD SAFE IN THE HOME? I CAN'T SAY BECAUSE I'M NOT THERE, BUT WHAT I KNOW IS THAT ONE OF OUR MEMBERS WAS ALERTED TO THE SITUATION AND HAS BEEN GOING IN EVERY DAY TO THE SCHOOL TO CONFIRM THAT THAT CHILD IS AT LEAST FEELING SUPPORTED. COS THAT'S THE HEARTBREAKING THING, RIGHT? WE KNOW IT'S THE HARDEST THING IN THE WORLD TO TELL PEOPLE ABOUT ABUSE AND THAT ABUSE IS HAPPENING TO US. YOU HAVE A CHILD WHO'S IN A PRIMARY SCHOOL WHO'S DONE THE REALLY BRAVE THING, THE REALLY HARD THING ` THEY'VE ASKED FOR HELP. THEY'VE SAID WHAT'S HAPPENING. ALL OF THE GROWN-UPS IN THEIR LIVES NEED TO SPRINT TO SOLVE THAT PROBLEM, AND NONE OF THEM CAN. SO HOW MUCH BIGGER DOES THE BEHAVIOUR OF THIS PERSON WHO'S USING VIOLENCE GET? THAT... MY TEACHER CAN'T STOP HIM. MY PRINCIPAL CAN'T STOP HIM. YOU KNOW, CLEARLY MY OTHER PARENT CAN'T STOP HIM. WHAT THAT DOES TO CHILDREN, TO THEIR DEVELOPING BRAINS, TO THEIR SENSE OF THEMSELVES, TO THEIR TRAUMA IS EXACTLY WHAT JUST GOT TABLED IN THE HOUSE YESTERDAY. EXACTLY. YEAH. IS THAT CHILD STILL IN THAT HOME? AS FAR AS I'M AWARE. THAT IS THE FIRST PART OF OUR INTERVIEW WITH NIKKI HURST. AFTER THE BREAK... IS ORANGA TAMARIKI DOING ENOUGH TO KEEP YOUNG PEOPLE SAFE? WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO BE THE GOVERNMENT AGENCY TASKED WITH KEEPING CHILDREN SAFE? WE PICK UP AGAIN WITH NIKKI HURST. IS ORANGA TAMARIKI, AS IT'S CURRENTLY OPERATING ` AND I WANT TO ACKNOWLEDGE THERE ARE SOME WONDERFUL PEOPLE THERE... ABSOLUTELY. ...DOING INCREDIBLE WORK. YEAH. BUT IS THE ORGANISATION FIT FOR PURPOSE? I JUST FEEL LIKE WE HAVE HAD TWO YEARS OF... CHAOS AND STRANGE DECISION-MAKING. AND I'M REALLY CONSCIOUS OF HOW AMAZING A LOT OF THE PEOPLE WHO WORK THERE ARE, AND HOW MUCH HEART EVERYONE HAS. I DON'T BELIEVE ANYONE ARE MAKING THE CHOICES THAT THEY'RE MAKING OUT OF ANYTHING OTHER THAN THINKING THEY'RE DOING THE RIGHT THING. BUT OVER THE LAST TWO YEARS, WE'VE JUST... WE EXPERIENCED THE CONTRACTING CHALLENGE TWO YEARS AGO. WE WERE IN THE SAME POSITION THEN. WE'RE BACK IN THE CONTRACTING CHALLENGE NOW, WHERE WE DON'T KNOW WHO'S GOT CONTRACTS OR WHAT FUNDING IS GOING TO HAPPEN OR WHEN IT'S GOING TO HAPPEN. IT JUST FEELS LIKE FOR A MINISTRY THAT WAS NEW, IT NEVER FORMED UP THE STRUCTURES THAT IT NEEDED TO DO WHAT IT NEEDS TO DO. DOES IT KNOW WHAT IT NEEDS TO DO? I DON'T KNOW. IT FEELS FROM THE OUTSIDE LIKE IT DOESN'T. IT FEELS LIKE THERE'S CHALLENGES AROUND THE STRATEGY; WHETHER OR NOT THEY HAVE A STRATEGY AND A DIRECTION. BUT AT A REALLY FUNDAMENTAL LEVEL, WHEN YOU ARE THE PERSON WHOSE ROLE IN OUR SOCIETY IS TO SIT ABOVE EVERYTHING AND KNOW WHAT COMMUNITIES NEED AS FAR AS RESOURCING AND KNOWING WHERE TAMARIKI ARE AND WHERE PARENTING SUPPORT NEEDS TO GO, IT JUST FEELS LIKE THERE'S NO GIANT SPREADSHEET IN THE SKY, THAT THERE'S NO CLEAR DATA THAT ORANGA TAMARIKI HAS TO KNOW WHAT'S HAPPENING ON A DAY-TO-DAY BASIS. I HOPE THIS ISN'T A RED HERRING. TELL ME IF IT IS. YEAH. BUT IS THE REQUIREMENT...? AND THE WORD THEY USE ON THEIR WEBSITE IS THAT THEY WERE 'DIRECTED TO', WHICH IS A FASCINATING WORD. IT SEEMS REALLY PEJORATIVE TO ME. IS THE REQUIREMENT, THE DIRECTION TO RUN BOOT CAMPS CONFOUDING THE SENSE OF MUDDLE, OF CONFUSION, OF SCRAMBLE, OF UNCERTAINTY? YEAH. LOOK, IF I GO BACK TO THE EVIDENCE, WHAT I KNOW IS THAT IF WE'RE TAKING AN APPROACH TO TRY AND REDUCE CRIME FOR YOUNG PEOPLE AND FOR YOUNG PEOPLE TO BE IMPACTED BY CRIME, EITHER BY PERPETRATING IT OR EXPERIENCING IT, WHICH IS ALSO THE OTHER SIDE, WE'VE GOT TO GET IN EARLY AND WE'VE GOT TO DO IT REALLY WELL, AND IT WILL TAKE REALLY STRONG INTERVENTION VERY EARLY ON, AS WELL AS AT THE OTHER END. I THINK A BOOT CAMP APPROACH IS... NOT THE RIGHT APPROACH FOR ANY OF THESE CHILDREN ` AND THEY ARE CHILDREN. I THINK IN THE LONGER TERM, WHAT THEY NEED IS A HOLISTIC, WRAPAROUND SUPPORT. AND I'M GLAD TO HEAR THAT THAT'S A COMPONENT OF IT. BUT I DON'T THINK MAKING THEM WEAR A UNIFORM IS GOING TO HAVE THE OUTCOME PEOPLE WANT. YOU TALKED ABOUT THE INDEPENDENT CHILDREN'S MONITOR, WHOSE ROLE INCLUDES MONITORING THE WHOLE OF THE ORANGA TAMARIKI SYSTEM. THIS IS REALLY IMPORTANT WORK. THEY FILED AN ANNUAL REPORT, EXPERIENCES OF CARE IN AOTEAROA. IN ITS REPORT FOR THE 2021/22 YEAR, THE IMC NOTES THAT REGULATIONS ` AND THIS IS A QUOTE; IT'S A REALLY IMPORTANT QUOTE ` 'REQUIRE ORANGA TAMARIKI 'TO ASSESS PROSPECTIVE CAREGIVERS 'IN THEIR HOUSEHOLDS BEFORE PLACING 'TAMARIKI OR RANGATAHI WITH THEM', RIGHT? THAT'S AS IT SHOULD BE. BUT THIS IS FROM THE IMC, AGAIN, VERBATIM QUOTE ` '32% OF TAMARIKI WERE PLACED BEFORE ALL 'PARTS OF THE ASSESSMENT WERE COMPLETED 'OR BEFORE PROVISIONALLY APPROVED.' YEAH. AND THEN LAST YEAR'S REPORT SAYS THERE'S BEEN NO EVIDENCE OF CHANGE THIS YEAR. SHOULD WE BE WORRIED ABOUT THAT? YEAH, WE ABSOLUTELY SHOULD. AND WE'VE RAISED THAT BOTH WITH AROTURUKI, THE INDEPENDENT CHILDREN'S MONITOR, AND WE'VE RAISED IT WITH THE EXECUTIVE OF ORANGA TAMARIKI. WHAT RESPONSE DO YOU GET? WELL, NOT A LOT. SORRY, I JUST WANT TO CLARIFY. SO WHAT WE'RE LEARNING IS THAT ROUGHLY ONE IN THREE CHILDREN ARE BEING PLACED WITHOUT ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY. YEAH. OF SAFETY, OF SUPPORT FOR THOSE PEOPLE, OF THOSE CHILDREN COMING INTO CARE WITH WHAT THEY NEED, OF THE PEOPLE WHO ARE CARING FOR THEM FEELING SUPPORTED AND ABLE TO DO AN EFFECTIVE JOB. ONE IN THREE? ONE IN THREE, ONE IN THREE. AND THESE ARE EXACTLY THE SERVICES THAT ARE NOT BEING RE-CONTRACTED, RIGHT? THESE ARE THE ONES THAT PROVIDERS HAVE NO CLARITY IF THEY CAN KEEP PROVIDING THAT AMAZING WRAPAROUND SUPPORT TO ALLOW CHILDREN TO STAY EITHER WITH WHANAU, WHICH WE KNOW IS BEST, OR WITH OTHER CAREGIVERS, AND MAKE SURE THAT THEY'RE SAFE AND SUPPORTED AND ABLE TO CHANGE THINGS FOR THESE TAMARIKI. WHAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN? (SIGHS) I FEEL LIKE WE'VE HAD A MILLION REPORTS AND REVIEWS AND PRACTICE SHIFTS AND STRATEGY CHANGES. AND WHAT FUNDAMENTALLY NEEDS TO HAPPEN IS TO ACTUALLY GO BACK TO WHY ORANGA TAMARIKI WAS MEANT TO EXIST. YOU KNOW, THERE WAS SOME AMAZING WORK DONE WHEN ORANGA TAMARIKI WAS BEING DEVELOPED AND STOOD UP, AND THE NEXT PHASE WAS AROUND HAVING REALLY CLEAR PROCESSES AND REALLY GOOD DATA AND HAVING REALLY GOOD EVIDENCE. AS PROVIDERS, WE SEND THROUGH A WALL OF EVALUATION AND NUMBERS AND QUANTITATIVE DATA AND QUALITATIVE DATA, AND IT JUST GOES AND SITS IN THE CONTRACTING POT. WE DON'T SEE IT GET PUT INTO A SYSTEM AND GET USED. NIKKI, IN THE CONTEXT OF WHAT WE LEARNT YESTERDAY WHEN THE INQUIRY FROM THE ROYAL COMMISSION WAS TABLED` RELEASED, IS IT EXTRAORDINARY TO YOU THAT WE ARE IN THIS SITUATION STILL WITH ORANGA TAMARIKI? THAT IS CAREGIVERS WITH CONTRACTS NOT KNOWING WHAT THEIR FUTURE IS; THAT IS CHILDREN WHO MAY BE IN POSITIONS OF PERIL REMAINING IN THEM. SHOULD WE STILL BE IN THIS SPACE? YEAH. WE ABSOLUTELY SHOULDN'T. WE NEED TO GET THIS RIGHT. WE CONTINUE, AS A SOCIETY, TO HOPE THAT IT WILL GET BETTER WHILE NOT PUTTING EVERY SINGLE EFFORT WE CAN INTO MAKING IT BETTER. WE ALL KNOW THAT IF WE GIVE SOMETHING 70%, THEN WE'RE ONLY GOING TO GET 70% OUT. IF WE REALLY WANT THE OVERSIGHT SYSTEM TO WORK AROUND CHILDREN, THEN WE NEED TO FUND IT; WE NEED TO STAFF IT WITH THE MOST AMAZING PEOPLE. BUT WE ALSO NEED TO MAKE SURE THAT THE PEOPLE WHO ARE ACTUALLY OUT THERE ON THE GROUND DOING THE WORK ARE SUPPORTED, ARE THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE THE TRAINING, WHO HAVE THE KNOWLEDGE, WHO HAVE THE PERSONAL EXPERIENCE TO BE ABLE TO BE REALLY SAFE, AMAZING, EFFECTIVE ADULTS WORKING WITH TAMARIKI. AND FOR SOME REASON, WE'RE JUST STILL NOT THERE. WE DON'T NEED ANOTHER REPORT. AND THE COSTS OF GETTING THIS WRONG ARE, AS WE SAW YESTERDAY... OH, ABSOLUTELY, EXPONENTIALLY HORRENDOUS. THERE'S NOT ENOUGH WORDS IN THE WORLD FOR WHAT HAPPENED. BUT WHEN I READ THE INDEPENDENT CHILDREN'S MONITOR'S REPORTS, THE THING THAT STICKS WITH ME IS WHERE IT TALKS ABOUT THAT THIS IS CONTINUING TO HAPPEN. THAT CHILDREN ARE CONTINUING TO MAKE DISCLOSURES OF ABUSE HAPPENING TO THEM IN OUR SOCIETY RIGHT NOW IN STATE CARE, YOU KNOW. AND THERE WAS AN AMAZING REPORT FROM THE OMBUDSMAN EARLIER THIS YEAR IN HIS ROLE AS THE PERSON WHO OVERSEES THE ENTIRE SYSTEM. CHILDREN WHO HAVE SOMEHOW HAD THE BRAVERY AND THE AGENCY TO REPORT BACK TO HIM AND SAY, WE'RE CONCERNED ABOUT SOMETHING THAT'S HAPPENING TO US WHILE WE'RE IN A CARE RESIDENCE. THOSE NUMBERS ARE TERRIFYING. WHY ON EARTH THAT'S HAPPENING I HAVE NO IDEA. BUT WHAT ACTUALLY... I'M A BIT OF A DATA GEEK. WHAT REALLY TERRIFIES ME IS YOU CAN SEE IN THAT REPORT THAT THE REPORTING COMING OUT OF MURIHIKU INVERCARGILL IS REALLY HIGH; THE REPORTING COMING OUT OF SOME OTHER CENTRES IS INCREDIBLY LOW. WHAT'S HAPPENING IN MURIHIKU CAN BE STOPPED. THOSE CHILDREN HAVE ENOUGH AGENCY TO BE ABLE TO SAY, 'WE NEED HELP'. I FIRMLY BELIEVE THE SAME LEVEL OF CHALLENGE IS HAPPENING FOR THESE CHILDREN. THEY JUST DON'T KNOW HOW TO ASK FOR HELP. I JUST WANT TO RAISE BRIEFLY, BECAUSE I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT WE DO, THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT STATE CARE, RIGHT? BUT ALSO WHAT WE SAW IN THE ROYAL COMMISSION OF INQUIRY WAS A TERRIBLE INSIGHT INTO THE DAMAGE DONE BY FAITH-BASED CARE. YEAH. AND... AND THESE ARE MEMBERS OF, OF THE GROUP THAT YOU UMBRELLA OVER. SO THERE'S A CALL FOR APOLOGIES, I THINK, BROADLY FROM THE CATHOLICS, THE ANGLICANS, THE METHODISTS, THE PRESBYTERIANS, THE SALLIES. WHAT'S YOUR TAKE ON THIS? HOW DO YOU RESPOND TO THIS AS THE HEAD OF CHRISTIAN SOCIAL SERVICES? YEAH, IT'S A CHALLENGING ONE, AND IT'S ONE THAT EACH OF THOSE FAITH-BASED ORGANISATIONS WILL HAVE TO MAKE A DECISION THEMSELVES. I HEARD JUSTIN DUCKWORTH, ARCHBISHOP OF NEW ZEALAND, ON THE RADIO THIS MORNING TALKING TO THAT. AND I THINK IT'S REALLY BEST IF EACH OF THEM INDIVIDUALLY TALK TO WHAT'S POSSIBLE FOR THEM. IF WE STICK WITH THE ROYAL COMMISSION OF ENQUIRY REPORT FOR A LITTLE LONGER, WE KEEP BEING TOLD THAT ENTRUSTING COMMUNITIES IS THE SOLUTION. HOW DOES THAT WORK? CAN IT WORK? ABSOLUTELY. HOW DOES IT WORK, AND GIVEN WHAT WE'VE LEARNT FROM THE FAILURES OF SOME OF THE PEOPLE THAT WE TRUSTED TO TAKE CARE OF CARE, HOW DO WE KNOW WHEN COMMUNITIES ARE GETTING IT RIGHT OR WRONG? WE ABSOLUTELY KNOW IT CAN WORK. THERE ARE MANY, MANY, MANY EXAMPLES OF IT WORKING RIGHT NOW. WE IDENTIFY WHAT WE WANT TO` HOW WE WANT TO TACKLE IT, WHICH DIRECTION WE WANT TO GO IN, AND WE FUND IT, AND WE FIND THE RIGHT PEOPLE TO DO IT, AND WE THEN SUPPORT THEM WITH THE RESOURCES THAT THEY NEED, BUT WITH ENOUGH STRUCTURE AROUND THINGS, ENOUGH ADEQUATE EFFECTIVE REPORTING TO KNOW THAT WHAT IS HAPPENING MEETS THE OUTCOMES THAT WE ARE SEEKING TO SEE. BUT ALL THAT ONLY WORKS IF THERE IS A HIGHLY TRUSTED RELATIONSHIP, RIGHT? IF THE FUNDER, IN THIS CASE ORANGA TAMARIKI WHO MIGHT BE THE PROCURING BODY, HAVE PROCESSES AND BEHAVIOURS THAT MAKE THE PEOPLE IN THE COMMUNITY DOING THIS WORK FEEL SAFE AND SUPPORTED AND ABLE TO COME BACK AND SAY, YOU FUNDED US FOR THIS, BUT ACTUALLY WHAT WE'RE SEEING AS THIS IS THE NEED. OR, WE ARE REALLY STRUGGLING WITH THIS AND WE NEED YOUR HELP. THERE ARE POWERS THAT ORANGA TAMARIK HAS AS THE STATUTORY AGENCY. SO WHEN ONE OF THE PROVIDERS ARE TRYING TO DEVOLVE RESPONSIBILITY, YOU DON'T GIVE UP YOUR RESPONSIBILITY; YOU ARE STILL IN THE RELATIONSHIP YOU ARE WORKING ALONGSIDE ` IT IS A PARTNERSHIP. HOW MANY OF THEM SHOULD BE IMPLEMENTED? ALL OF THEM. FINAL QUESTION AND ANSWER TWO-PARTER ` HOW URGENT IS IT THAT WE ADDRESS THIS AND WHAT IS THE COST OF NOT GETTING IT RIGHT? I MEAN, MY PREFERENCE IS THAT WE ADDRESSED THIS TWO YEARS AGO, YOU KNOW, OR SIX YEARS AGO WHEN WE STOOD UP ORANGA TAMARIKI. THAT'S WHY WE DID THAT. UM... IF WE CAN'T GET THIS RIGHT, THEN WE'RE PERPETUATING ANOTHER GENERATION THAT EXPERIENCES TRAUMA THAT WILL SHOW UP AS BEHAVIOUR THAT SOCIETY DOESN'T WANT TO ACCEPT AS, YOU KNOW, HOW WE WANT THINGS IN AOTEAROA TO BE. WE LET DOWN THOSE FUTURE GENERATIONS BY DOING ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TODAY. AND DOING SOME STUFF ISN'T GOOD ENOUGH. WE NEED TO DO EVERYTHING WE CAN. AFTER WE SPOKE TO NIKKI HURST, WE WENT TO ORANGA TAMARIKI FOR A RESPONSE. THEY CONFIRMED THEY HOPE TO SEND OUT CONTRACTS TO A "MAJORITY" OF SERVICE PROVIDERS BY THE END OF THE MONTH. AND AS FOR THE SERVICES THAT HAVE KEPT OPERATING THIS PAST THAT IS WEDNESDAY. THOSE WHO AREN'T OUT BY WEDNESDAY, NOT LONG AFTER. AND AS FOR THE SERVICES THAT HAVE KEPT OPERATING THIS PAST MONTH DESPITE BEING TRAPPED IN LIMBO. WE'VE BEEN GOING THROUGH A NUMBER OF PROCESSES AT THE MOMENT ` SO ONE IS, WE'RE GOING THROUGH A RESTRUCTURE AS AN ORGANISATION AT THE SAME TIME. BUT ONE OF THE THINGS I PROBABLY WANT TO SAY IS THAT WE WILL MAKE SURE WE COVER ANY OF THE EXPENSES AND COSTS THAT'S BEEN PUT TO THOSE PROVIDERS AS A RESULT OF ANY DELAYS THAT WE HAVE MADE. FOR EXAMPLE, EVEN IF THERE ARE CHANGES OR WE'RE DISESTABLISHING SERVICES, WE WILL PAY AN ADDITIONAL 3-6 MONTHS FROM THE TIME OF NOTIFICATION. OR IF SERVICES HAVE HAPPENED IN THIS PERIOD, WE'LL MAKE SURE THOSE COSTS ARE COVERED. ORANGA TAMARIKI SENIOR LEADER DARRIN HAIMONA ALSO HAD THIS TO SAY. I DO ACKNOWLEDGE IT HAS TAKEN LONGER THAN WHAT WE NORMALLY WOULD LIKE TO DO IN THIS AREA, AND HAVING A BACKGROUND MYSELF FOR 30-PLUS YEARS IN THE COMMUNITY, I KNOW WHAT IT'S LIKE TO ACTUALLY DEPEND ON FINANCIAL KIND OF SUPPORT, TO FUNDING, ETC. WE DO APOLOGISE AROUND THAT, BUT I DON'T APOLOGISE FOR TRYING TO THINK ABOUT MAKING GOOD DECISIONS TO USE MONEY EFFECTIVELY. RESPONDING TO ALLEGATIONS THAT ORANGA TAMARIKI LACKS THE RESOURCES TO RESPOND TO ALL REPORTS OF CONCERN, DARRIN HAIMONA SAYS HE'S NOT AWARE OF THE ISSUE, BUT THAT PEOPLE SHOULD TELL THE MINISTRY IF THEY HAVE CONCERNS. IF YOU WANT TO CONTACT Q+A TEAM, PLEASE KORERO MAI. THESE ARE OUR MAIN PLATFORMS. HIT US UP ON EMAIL, TWITTER, OR FACEBOOK. AFTER THE BREAK... WHERE DO WE DRAW THE LINE BETWEEN THE RIGHT TO FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION AND THE RIGHT TO BE SAFE FROM HATE? THE CHIEF CENSOR JOINS US LIVE. WHAT A JOB SHE HAS. IN OCTOBER, THE FILMS, VIDEOS, AND PUBLICATIONS CLASSIFICATIONS ACT WILL HAVE BEEN IN PLACE FOR THIRTY YEARS. THAT'S THE LEGISLATION WHICH GIVES THE CHIEF CENSOR THE POWER TO STOP PEOPLE READING OR VIEWING PUBLICATIONS, AND EFFECTIVELY MAKING IT ILLEGAL TO LOOK AT THEM. WHICH IS VITAL WORK. BUT DOES THE WORLD THAT LAW WAS WRITTEN FOR EVEN STILL EXIST? CHIEF CENSOR, CAROLINE FLORA, TENA KOE, NAU MAI. THANK YOU FOR COMING IN ON A SUNDAY MORNING. AS THE FILMS VIDEO AND PUBLICATIONS HAVE A PURPOSE? SOME PARTS OF IT ARE. PARENTS COULD LITERALLY STOP THEIR CHIDLREN FROM REACHING OUT. THE WORLD HAS CHANGED PARTICULARLY FOR YOUNG PEOPLE. PARTICULARLY THAT VERY HIGH THRESHOLD FOR WHAT WE CALL OBJECTIONABLE CONTENT. BUYS VERY HIGH. THE BAR IS VERY HIGH. TERRORIST -RELATED MATERIAL, CHILD SEXUAL CONTENT... IT'S NOT SOMETHING THAT PEOPLE ARE WORRIED A STUMBLING UPON. I WOULDN'T SAY SO. THOSE TYPES OF CONTENT I HAVE JUST DESCRIBED ARE THINGS THAT EVEN THE BIGGEST PROPONENTS OF FREE SPEECH WOULD AGREE WERE BAD. WHILE BALANCING THE RIGHT TO FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION. HOW MUCH PRESSURE IS THERE ON YOU TO GET IT RIGHT? THE PUBLIC EXPECTS US TO GET RIGHT. AND GLAD YOU TALKED ABOUT FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION RATHER THAN FREEDOM OF SPEECH ` FREEDOM OF SPEECH IS AN AMERICAN TERM. YOU CAN IMPART OPINIONS, BUT YOU ALSO HAVE THE RIGHT TO SEEK IT OUT AND RECEIVE IT; BALANCING THAT OUT AS VERY IMPORTANT. OUR OFFICE TAKES IT VERY SERIOUSLY. THE DETERMINATIONS WE MAKE ON PUBLIC A FINAL, BUT THEY DON'T GO THROUGH PROCESS AT COURT BY OTHER PROCESSES. THE PENALTIES FOR MAKING AND DISTRIBUTING A VERY SERIOUS SO BALANCING THAT FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION AND PROTECTING THE PUBLIC FROM HARM AS A JOB WE TAKE EXTREMELY SERIOUSLY. IF WE ARE EVER IN DOUBT, FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION TRUMPS. WHERE DOES HATE STAND IN THE CENSORSHIP CONTINUUM? WE KNOW THAT CHILD PORNOGRAPHY, EXTREME VIOLENCE ET CETERA IS OUT AS IT SHOULD BE, BUT HOW DO YOU SENSE A HATE? IN THE FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION ARGUMENT, YOU CAN EXPRESS HATE. IT IS NOT THE ONLY LEGISLATION THAT CURBS FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION. GOT A THINK ABOUT DEFAMATION, FALSE ADVERTISING, COURT SUPPRESSION ORDERS ` THEY ALL CURB YOUR RIGHT TO SAY WHAT YOU WANT. HATE SPEECH IS NOT BANNED IN NEW ZEALAND. WE DON'T BAN THINGS THAT ARE MISLEADING OR OFFENSIVE. WE CAN ONLY DEAL WITH THINGS THAT CONTAIN THINGS OTHER THAN VIOLENCE THAT ARE CLASSIFIABLE. I WANT TO TALK ABOUT MISOGYNY, I WANT TO TALK ABOUT WHITE SUPREMACY, ISLAM A PHOBIA. ISLAMOPHOBIA. IT FEELS LIKE YOU HAVE BUILT A SEAWALL BUT THE COASTERS LONGER. AN EXAMPLE, IS THAT OUR PRODUCER ` I DO WANT TO SAY WHAT THE BOOK IS BECAUSE I DON'T WANT TO BE A DICK ` THE BOOK IS BANNED, SO YOU CAN'T BUY IT FROM UNITY BUT YOU CAN BUY IT ONLINE. HOW DO YOU CENSOR IN THE ENVIRONMENT? BOOKS ARE REALLY BANNED IN AOTEAROA. THOSE ARE RARE. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR US TO CAPTURE THEM ALL. YOU BANNED THE OBJECT BUT THE NONPHYSICAL OBJECT IS ONLINE. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR US TO CATCH EVERYTHING. OUR OFFICE IS NOT AN INVESTIGATIVE AGENCY, NOR IS IT ENFORCEMENT. THE COURTS REFER PUBLICATIONS TO US IF THEY THINK IT MIGHT BE CLASSIFIABLE. HOW OFTEN HAS EXTREMISTS JENNY ATTACHED TO THE KIND OF MATERIAL THAT HAS NO PLACE IN SOCIETY, THAT PASSES THAT THRESHOLD. AND MADE THIS YEAR WE RESEARCHED ` ITS ON A WIKI FORMAT ON A WEBSITE ` IS AN IMPORTANT REPORT. WE WERE INTERESTED IN UNDERSTANDING THIS TOPIC BECAUSE WE WERE NOTICING TREATS OF MISOGYNY THROUGHOUT DIFFERENT VIOLENT EXTREMIST IDEOLOGIES; CHAPTERS FOR EXAMPLE IN THE CHRISTCHURCH MANIFESTO THE EMERGENCE OF SPECIFIC HATE FOR IDEOLOGIES, SUCH AS INCELS. THE LITERATURE SUPPORTS THAT. IT ALSO SUPPORTS THAT WOMEN AT HIGH PROFILE ROLES ARE MORE LIKELY TO BE TARGETED BY HATE. AND THE VICTIMS OF DEEP FAKE PORNOGRAPHY. ONE STUDY SHOWED THAT MORE THAN 80% OF VICTIMS OF DEEP FAKE PORNOGRAPHY ARE WOMEN AND GIRLS. WERE MEN WHO HAVE INTERSECTING IDENTITIES ARE MORE LIKELY TO EXPERIENCE HATE ONLINE. I HAVE AN EXAMPLE OF THAT. I DID AN INTERVIEW LAST MONTH. I TALKED TO A WOMAN WHO RECEIVED HATE DAILY. CAN YOU JUST READ THAT TO ME, THAT ONE, THE BOTTOM ONE? YEAH, SO IT'S UNDER AN ARTICLE THAT'S QUOTED ME AS HAVING BEEN STRANGLED. ON A WEBSITE. IT'S` AND THE HEADLINE OF THE WEBSITE IS 'SURVIVING DOMESTIC VIOLENCE' WITH A PHOTO OF ME, AND THIS PERSON SAID, 'THE MAN WHO DID THIS TO YOU 'NEEDS TO BE HOUNDED DOWN AND VICIOUSLY BEATEN 'FOR NOT DOING THE JOB RIGHT'. SO WE THINK IT'S ACCEPTABLE TO HAVE ON A WEBSITE A COMMENT SAYING THAT WE SHOULD REMONSTRATE FOR SOMEONE FOR NOT HAVING KILLED YOU? YUP. THAT'S SHOCKING. BUT WHAT'S EXTRAORDINARY, IS THAT THAT WAS ON A MAINSTREAM NEWS WEBSITE AND THE COMMENT SECTION. HOW DO WE DEAL WITH THAT? UNDER THE LEGISLATION THAT OFFERS WORKS UNDER, THERE ISN'T MUCH WE CAN DO. BECAUSE OF FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION WE CAN'T STOP PEOPLE FROM THOSE COMMENTS. YOU CAN GO TO THE POLICE OF THEIR THREATS TO YOUR LIFE OR SAFETY. I WOULD ENCOURAGE ANYBODY HE WAS EXPERIENCING THIS TO CONTACT NET SAFE FOR THE POLICE; IT ISN'T ACCEPTABLE BUT IT ISN'T UNDER THE FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION IN OUR CURRENT LAWS. DO THE CURRENT LAWS NEED ` THE FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION, THIS IS SUCH A GOOD CONVERSATION, DIDN'T NEED TWEAKING? FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION IS A FUNDAMENTAL RIGHT THAT WE HAVE IN OUR BILL OF RIGHTS. THE TEST OF LIMITING IT IN OUR ACT IS VERY HIGH FOR A REASON. IF IT WERE TO CHANGE IT WOULD BE A DECISION FOR PARLIAMENT. NEW ZEALAND ALSO NEED TO GIVE ITS VIEW ON THAT. THE RESTRICTIONS WE PUT ON FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION IN OUR WORK MORE EFFECTIVE YOUNG PEOPLE ` WE ARE RESTRICTING THEM FROM SEEING CERTAIN TYPES OF CONTENT THAT THEY ARE NOT MATURE ENOUGH TO POTENTIALLY PROCESS. WAS A FIRST FILM YOU SAW THAT SPEAK TO YOU? I DON'T KNOW, BUT I'M GOING AROUND CONVERSATIONS OF WHETHER SATURDAY NIGHT FEVER SHOULD HAVE BEEN APPROPRIATE. TIMES HAVE CHANGED. AS IT TECHNOLOGICALLY POSSIBLE TO CENSOR PUBLICATIONS? I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT THAT WE DO IT. TAKE THAT MOSQUE ATTACK LIVE STREAM AND A MANIFESTO THAT MEN PRODUCED ` THAT HAS INSPIRED REAL-LIFE VIOLENCE ACROSS THE WORLD. HE HAS INSPIRED REAL-WORLD VIOLENCE. WE EXIST TO SEVER THAT CHAIN OF INSPIRATION. WE WORK VERY QUICKLY WITH LAW-ENFORCEMENT HERE AND ALL OVER THE WORLD. CAN I ASK ABOUT YOUR MENTAL HEALTH? IS THAT OK? THAT'S WHY WE EXIST. WE DEAL WITH DARK CONTENT SO THE NEW ZEALAND CONTENT DOESN'T HAVE TO. MY TEAM IS INCREDIBLE; I GO TO A CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST EVERY EIGHT WEEKS BUT WE HAVE A LOT OF THINGS IN PLACE FOR HOW WE DO THIS WORK AND HOW WE LOOK AFTER OURSELVES. WE ALSO NOT THE ONLY PEOPLE WITH A MONOPOLY IN HORROR. HOW OFTEN DO YOU SEE VIOLENT WHITE SUPREMACY, ISLAMOPHOBIA ET CETERA? SADLY SINCE CHRISTCHURCH, THAT IS BECOMING A BIGGER PART OF OUR WORK. IT MAKES ITS WAY TO US THROUGH COMMUNITIES ONLINE. THAT HAS A BIGGER FEATURE OF OUR WORK. CAN I TALK TO YOU ABOUT ` IN ORDER TO SURVIVE AS FOLK, WE NEED MORE OFTEN THAN NOT THINK WELL OF EACH OTHER. I THINK GIVEN WHAT YOU'VE SEEN, THERE MUST BE TIME SO YOU THINK WHAT A DREADFUL PEOPLE WE ARE? DO YOU MAINTAIN A CAPACITY TO THINK THAT WE ARE DECENT PEOPLE? I ABSOLUTELY DO. THERE ARE DARK PARTS OF THIS JOB, BUT ALSO BEAUTIFUL PARTS. MAY FAVOURITE THING TO DO IS TO ENGAGE THE COMMUNITY, PARTICULARLY YOUNG PEOPLE. WE HAVE AN INCREDIBLE YOUTH ADVISORY COMMITTEE. YOU HAVE A REPORT COMING OUT ON MONDAY. WE ARE VERY EXCITED WITH NET SAFE TO BE LAUNCHING RESEARCH TOMORROW INTO YOUNG PEOPLE'S BODY IMAGE ONLINE. AND THEIR WORLD ONLINE ` IS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT TO HOW WE GREW UP. AND HOW EXPENSE COMPARISON, SELF-ESTEEM; HOW THE EXPERIENCE FITNESS AND DIETING REGIMES, SO WE ARE REALLY BLESSED TO HAVE THE VOICES ARE 58 YOUNG PEOPLE ` INCLUDING PEOPLE RECEIVING CLINICAL CARE ` WATCH THIS SPACE. THANK YOU FOR COMING. REALLY NICE TO MEET YOU. AFTER THE BREAK ` WHY CLIMATE CHANGE IS EVEN WORSE FOR CHILDREN THAN IT IS FOR ADULTS. WE STARTED Q+A THIS MORNING WITH ORANGA TAMARIKI AND CARING FOR OUR CHILDREN, AND WE'RE ENDING THE PROGRAMME WITH A GLOBAL ORGANISATION ALSO CHARGED WITH DOING THAT. AND WE'RE ENDING THE PROGRAMME WITH A GLOBAL ORGANISATION ALSO CHARGED WITH DOING THAT. UNICEF WORKS IN OVER 190 COUNTRIES AND TERRITORIES. THE ORGANISATION'S JOB ` TO SAVE LIVES, DEFEND CHILD RIGHTS, AND HELP CHILDREN GROW UP INTO LIVES OF SAFETY AND PARTICIPATION. THAT MEANS WORKING ON THE GROUND. NO MATTER HOW TERRIBLE THE SITUATION, NO MATTER HOW VIOLENT OR OBJECTIONABLE THE COMPANY, TO HELP, YOU HAVE TO BE THERE. THIS WEEK, THEIR GLOBAL HEAD, CATHERINE RUSSELL, HAS BEEN IN OUR NEIGHBOURHOOD LOOKING, IN PART, AT THE RISK POSED BY CLIMATE CHANGE. WELL, IT'S A HUGE CHALLENGE FOR THE WORLD, RIGHT, TO THINK ABOUT HOW TO ADDRESS THESE CLIMATE PROBLEMS EVERYWHERE, AND I WOULD SAY ONE IMPORTANT REALISATION IS THAT EVERY COUNTRY IS AT SOME SORT OF RISK FOR CLIMATE CRISIS AND CLIMATE CHANGE. IT WAS VERY APPARENT IN THE PACIFIC ` YOU COULD SEE IT, RIGHT? I MEAN, IT WAS... I VISITED AN ISLAND WHERE I SAW A SCHOOL THAT HAD BEEN DESTROYED TWICE IN CYCLONES, AND THEN THEY FINALLY DECIDED THEY HAD TO MOVE IT UP THE HILL, BECAUSE THERE WAS NO WAY THEY COULD KEEP IT WHERE IT WAS BECAUSE IT WAS GOING TO BE A PERPETUAL SITUATION WHERE THEY WERE GOING TO HAVE YOU KNOW, TO HAVE THE THING REBUILT, REBUILT, REBUILT. SO I THINK I SAW THAT. I SAW, UM, YOU KNOW, CHALLENGES AROUND FOOD. AND WHEN I TALKED TO THE TEACHER THERE, SHE SAID THAT WHEN SHE WAS GROWING UP, THERE WAS PLENTY OF FOOD THERE, BUT BECAUSE OF SOME OF THE CLIMATE CHALLENGES ` AGAIN, THESE CYCLONES ` THAT THE FOOD WAS LESS AND THAT THEY WERE STRUGGLING WITH THAT. SO I THINK THESE CLIMATE CHALLENGES ARE REAL AND THEY'RE VERY PRESENT IN THE PACIFIC, RIGHT, BECAUSE IT'S THE SAME THING, THE SAME BEAUTIFUL ENVIRONMENT IS ALSO THE THING THAT IS MOST PRECARIOUS FOR PEOPLE THERE. AND AS YOU SAY, THERE ARE SOME PLACES, SOME ISLANDS, I DIDN'T VISIT, SOME OF THOSE THAT ARE ON THESE ATOLLS ` THEY'RE JUST TRULY AT RISK OF THE RISING WATER. BUT I THINK GENERALLY FOR CHILDREN, ALL OF THE CLIMATE CHALLENGES THAT WE'RE SEEING EVERYWHERE ` SO INCREASED AIR POLLUTION, INCREASED HEAT ` THOSE THINGS IMPACT CHILDREN DIFFERENTLY THAN THEY IMPACT ADULTS. WHY? BECAUSE THEIR BODIES ARE LITTLER. THEY'RE NOT ABLE TO WITHSTAND AS MUCH AIR POLLUTION AS YOU ARE OR I COULD, RIGHT? IT WOULD AFFECT CHILDREN MORE. SAME THING WITH HEAT, THAT CHILDREN ARE VERY SUSCEPTIBLE TO HEAT BECAUSE THEY DON'T SWEAT IN THE SAME WAY ADULTS DO. THEY DON'T GET RID OF THAT HEAT, SO IT CAN REALLY HAVE AN IMPACT ON THEIR SYSTEMS. SO WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO SAY IS, YOU KNOW, AS THE WORLD THINKS ABOUT ADDRESSING THESE CLIMATE CHALLENGES, MAKE SURE THAT YOU'RE UNDERSTANDING WHAT THE IMPACT IS ON CHILDREN, HOW IT'S SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT FROM ADULTS, AND MAKE SURE THAT THE PROGRAMMING ADDRESSES THAT. AND RIGHT NOW, WE ESTIMATE THAT ONLY A LITTLE OVER 2.4% OF CLIMATE FINANCING HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH CHILDREN, RIGHT? SO WE'VE GOT TO CHANGE THAT. WE'VE GOT TO SAY TO THE WORLD, 'LOOK, THIS IS A REAL PROBLEM FOR CHILDREN.' AND, YOU KNOW, WE ALL TALK ABOUT THE FUTURE IN CHILDREN, WELL, CHILDREN ARE THE FUTURE, RIGHT, AND WE HAVE TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY'RE HEALTHY AND THEY'RE PROTECTED. ONE OF THE PERVERSE THINGS ABOUT THE ALMOST DISPROPORTIONATE` ALTHOUGH, YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT ` THE IMPACTS OF CLIMATE CHANGE ARE EVERYWHERE, BUT IN IN PLACES IN MICRONESIA WHERE THE SEA LEVEL RISE, IS THAT THESE COMMUNITIES HAVE DONE THE LEAST TO CAUSE IT. FOR SURE, FOR SURE. SO HOW DO YOU MAKE A MORAL ARGUMENT FOR THE WORLD TO DO MORE ON BEHALF OF THESE PLACES THAT MOST OF THE PEOPLE FROM YOUR COUNTRY WILL NEVER VISIT? YEAH. NO, IT'S DEFINITELY TRUE. AND I THINK, YOU KNOW, THE DEVELOPED WORLD HAS TO UNDERSTAND ` AND I THINK THEY LARGELY DO ` THAT THEY HAVE A SPECIAL RESPONSIBILITY. THESE COUNTRIES ARE, AS YOU SAY, CONTRIBUTING NOTHING TO THIS PROBLEM. THERE'S NO CARBON, OR VIRTUALLY NO CARBON, COMING OUT OF VANUATU. THAT'S NOT THE PROBLEM. THEY HAVE NOT CREATED THIS CHALLENGE, BUT THEY ARE LIVING EVERY DAY WITH THE RESULTS OF IT AND WITH THE CONSEQUENCES. AND I THINK THE KEY FOR FROM OUR ADVOCACY FOR RICH COUNTRIES IS TO SAY, FIRST OF ALL, IT'S GOING TO AFFECT EVERYONE. THERE IS NO 'US VERSUS THEM' OR 'IT'S JUST A PROBLEM FOR THE PACIFIC'. THAT'S JUST INACCURATE. I MEAN, I LIVE IN THE UNITED STATES. WE'RE SEEING CONSTANT CHALLENGES AROUND CLIMATE CHANGE, WHETHER IT'S MORE TORNADOES, BEACH EROSION, I MEAN ALL SORTS OF PROBLEMS ` POLLUTION, FOR SURE. SO EVERYONE, WE ARE IN THIS TOGETHER, AND IF WE DON'T SEE THAT, THEN THAT'S EVERYONE'S PROBLEM, RIGHT? EVERYONE HAS GOT TO BE PART OF THE SOLUTION. THE RICH COUNTRIES HAVE GOT TO HELP COUNTRIES THAT DON'T HAVE THOSE RESOURCES TO ADAPT AND BECOME MORE RESILIENT, AND THAT'S THE WORK THAT UNICEF IS TRYING TO DO. I WANT TO SEGUE OFF A PHRASE YOU USE, WHICH WAS 'US VERSUS THEM', AND YOU ARE INCREASINGLY FINDING... YOUR PEOPLE AND YOUR PARTNERS ON THE GROUND IN THE MIDDLE OF 'US VERSUS THEM' ` AND GAZA IS A CLASSIC EXAMPLE, I THINK ON WEDNESDAY, RIGHT, AN OBVIOUSLY BRANDED UNICEF CAR WAS SHOT AT. WHAT'S GOING ON THERE? BECAUSE THAT SEEMS TO BE INCREASING. IS IT THAT THE COMBATANTS DON'T WANT YOU THERE TO BEAR WITNESS? WHAT'S HAPPENING? LOOK, YOU KNOW, WE ARE FACING CHALLENGES IN SO MANY PLACES AS A CONSEQUENCE OF CONFLICT. I CANNOT SAY THAT ENOUGH. I SEE IT IN SO MANY PLACES. CERTAINLY, I SAW IT IN GAZA. I WAS RECENTLY IN SUDAN, WHERE I SAW IT AS WELL. I SAW IT IN YEMEN, IN AFGHANISTAN, IN HAITI ` THE LIST GOES ON AND ON. AND THE PROBLEM IS THAT THESE CONFLICTS KEEP MULTIPLYING. WE DON'T EVER TAKE ANY OF THE CONFLICTS OFF THE LIST. WE JUST KEEP ADDING MORE AND MORE. AND THE PROBLEM FOR CHILDREN IN THESE SITUATIONS IS, ONE, THEY CAN BE DIRECTLY IMPACTED, AS YOU KNOW, THEY CAN BE HIT BY, YOU KNOW, SHRAPNEL, THEY CAN BE, YOU KNOW, AFFECTED BY BOMBARDMENTS AND THE REST OF IT, BUT THEY ALSO` CHILDREN ARE VERY DEPENDENT ON GOVERNMENT SERVICES, RIGHT, ON SOCIAL SERVICES ` SO EDUCATION, HEALTH CARE, CHILD PROTECTION, AND THOSE ARE SEVERELY DISRUPTED, IF NOT COMPLETELY DESTROYED, IN CONFLICT SETTINGS, AND SO IT'S VERY CHALLENGING FOR THEM. NOW, HUMANITARIANS FOR SURE ARE STRUGGLING HARD IN THESE PLACES TO DO WELL. WE SAW CERTAINLY SAW SOME SITUATIONS WHERE HUMANITARIANS ` IN GAZA, FOR SURE ` MANY HUMANITARIANS HAVE SUFFERED THERE, BUT THE WHOLE POPULATION IS SUFFERING. IT'S JUST A VERY DIFFICULT ENVIRONMENT. IT'S VERY SMALL. YOU KNOW, PEOPLE AREN'T REALLY ABLE TO LEAVE. SO IT IS JUST A QUESTION OF PEOPLE MOVING AROUND, TRYING TO FIND SAFE PLACES, AND THAT IS TRUE FOR THE HUMANITARIANS, WHO ARE SO BRAVE, WHO ARE TRYING TO HELP THE COMMUNITIES, WHO DO THEIR BEST EVERY SINGLE DAY, AND, YOU KNOW, SOMETIMES THEY GET INTO THE LINE OF FIRE TOO. IT IS SOMETHING THAT WE DEAL WITH ALL THE TIME ` IN MANY PLACES, I HAVE TO SAY. IT'S JUST A STRUGGLE EVERYWHERE. I WOULD SAY, YOU KNOW, I WAS IN SUDAN RECENTLY, AS YOU MENTIONED, AND WE HAD MET A STAFF PERSON WHOSE ENTIRE JOB ` LITERALLY, HIS WHOLE JOB ` IS NEGOTIATING WITH THE PARTY SO THAT WE HAVE ACCESS TO THE POPULATIONS. THAT'S WHAT HE DOES ALL DAY LONG WITH ALL SORTS OF DIFFERENT PARTIES, MANY OF THEM NOT THE MOST SAVOURY CHARACTERS THAT YOU CAN FIND. HAITI ` SAME THING. WE ARE STRUGGLING TO GET ACCESS, AND OUR PEOPLE ARE AT HUGE RISK, AND I WORRY ABOUT IT CONSTANTLY BECAUSE I HAVE TO APPROVE A LOT OF THESE MISSIONS SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE THEY'RE SO DANGEROUS, AND SO I WORRY ALL THE TIME ABOUT WHAT THE IMPACT IS ON OUR PEOPLE. BUT IT'S DANGEROUS WORK. IT'S JUST DANGEROUS WORK. SUDAN, WHAT, 3 MILLION DISPLACED CHILDREN? 3 MILLION ` IS THAT RIGHT? LISTEN, IT IS THE LARGEST CHILD DISPLACEMENT CRISIS IN THE WORLD. MILLIONS OF CHILDREN DISPLACED. WE HAVE 4 MILLION CHILDREN WHO ARE SUFFERING FROM ACUTE MALNUTRITION. CAN I INTERRUPT YOU THERE? UH-HUH. AND BECAUSE WE HAVE THESE CONVERSATIONS. BUT YOU KNOW WHAT MALNUTRITION LOOKS LIKE, AND IF WE WANT TO BE... TOO PEJORATIVE A WORD, AND I'M SORRY, I CAN'T THINK OF A BETTER ONE ` BUT IF WE WANT TO BE SHAMED INTO RESPONDING, WE NEED TO LOOK THIS IN THE EYES, DON'T WE? WHAT IS IT LIKE WHEN A CHILD HAS MALNUTRITION? IT'S ACTUALLY A REALLY HORRIBLE THING TO SEE, AND I HAVE SEEN IT IN SO MANY PLACES. I SAW IT IN AFGHANISTAN. I SAW IT IN YEMEN AND MANY OTHER PLACES. AND ESSENTIALLY WHAT HAPPENS IS, WHEN A CHILD'S BODY IS MALNOURISHED, AT SOME POINT, THE BODY JUST STARTS CONSUMING ITSELF, RIGHT, BECAUSE IT HAS NO FOOD. AND SO I WALKED INTO A HOSPITAL ROOM IN AFGHANISTAN AND IT WAS JAM-PACKED, LIKE TWO BABIES TO A BED. YOU KNOW, THE MOTHERS WERE KIND OF PERCHED ON THE SIDES OF THE BEDS. AND THE STRANGE THING FOR ANYONE WHO'S EVER BEEN AROUND BABIES, THE WHOLE ROOM WAS SILENT. WHY? BECAUSE THEY ARE TOO WEAK TO EVEN CRY. THAT'S HOW BAD IT GETS, RIGHT? THEY CAN'T CRY. THEY HAVE NO ENERGY TO DO ANYTHING. THEY'RE JUST TRYING TO SURVIVE. IN YEMEN, I SAW A BABY WHO CAME INTO A HOSPITAL WHERE I WAS VISITING, AND, I MEAN, IT'S ALMOST HARD TO DESCRIBE. HIS SKIN WAS LIKE PAPER, AND HE HAD NO FLESH. AND I SAID TO THE DOCTOR, YOU KNOW, 'WILL HE BE OK?' BECAUSE USUALLY IF UNICEF CAN GET THERE, WE DO SOMETHING. WE HAVE SOMETHING CALLED 'THERAPEUTIC FEEDING' THAT WE CAN GIVE THESE BABIES, AND IT HAS A LOT OF RISKS, YOU KNOW, IT MAKES IT POSSIBLE FOR US TO SAVE LIVES THAT YOU THINK WE COULD NEVER SAVE. DOCTOR SAID, 'IT'S TOO LATE. HE WILL BE DEAD BY THE MORNING. 'WE CAN'T SAVE HIM,' AND THAT'S CRUSHING TO SEE, BECAUSE THESE ARE CHILDREN WHO DON'T HAVE TO DIE. IT'S NOT LIKE THEY HAVE SOME DISEASE THAT WE CAN'T TREAT, RIGHT? THEY ARE JUST... THEY'RE DYING BECAUSE OF NEGLECT OR BECAUSE OF CONFLICT OR BECAUSE OF, YOU KNOW, I DON'T EVEN KNOW, JUST A WORLD THAT'S NOT DOING ENOUGH. SO YOU KNOW, AS WELL AS WATCHING OUR SHOW ON TVNZ+, WHERE YOU CAN FIND ALL OF Q+A'S WORK, PLUS THE BEST OF TVNZ'S NEWSROOM. SO YOU KNOW, AS WELL AS WATCHING OUR SHOW ON TVNZ+, WHERE YOU CAN FIND ALL OF Q+A'S WORK, PLUS THE BEST OF TVNZ'S NEWSROOM. ALL OF Q+A'S WORK, PLUS THE BEST OF TVNZ'S NEWSROOM. JILL HIGGINS JUST GOT SOME GREAT STUFF UP. GO HUNTING. BEFORE WE GO A QUICK CLARIFICATION FROM THE INTERVIEW Q+A DID LAST WEEK WITH CLIMATE MINISTER SIMON WATTS. AN EXCHANGE RELATED TO THE ASSERTION THAT NATIONAL'S EMISSIONS REDUCTION PLAN WOULD HAVE EFFECTIVELY THE SAME ECONOMIC IMPACT ON HOUSEHOLD CONSUMPTION AS LABOUR'S PLAN, BUT IN FACT THE COMPARISONS WE WERE WORKING OFF WERE AGAINST CURRENT PLAN SETTINGS, RATHER THAN LABOUR'S PLAN, FOR WHICH HOUSEHOLD CONSUMPTION IMPACTS HAVE NOT BEEN PUBLICLY RELEASED. KUA MUTU. THAT'S Q+A FOR THIS WEEK. FROM THE Q+A TEAM, THANKS FOR WATCHING AND NGA MIHI KI A KOUTOU I NGA KORERE. HEI TERA WIKI. Q+A WILL BE BACK NEXT SUNDAY AT 9AM. CAPTIONS BY COURTNEY SOLE AND BRIGIT KELLY. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ COPYRIGHT ABLE 2024