- E kore au e mate. E kore au e mate. Ka mate ko te mate. Ka ora taku toa i te whatukura o taku waka. Whano, whano, haramai te toki. Haumi e, hui e, taiki e! This week on The Hui ` Our national disgrace. The government responds to the largest inquiry in New Zealand's history. - And while we can never make right the harm that survivors experience, the government must be accountable and support survivors. - More than 250,000 tamariki were abused while in state and faith-based care. Survivors want more than an apology. - And I say to the survivors, the burden is no longer yours to carry alone. The state is now standing here beside you, accountable and ready to take action. - The one thing I see in common with all the survivors is that they want change. They want change in the system. - Our panel of survivors discuss the inquiry and what lies ahead. Captions were made with the support of NZ On Air. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2024 Te hunga kua karangatia e te Rahui roa. Haere mai, haere. Tatou kei te pito ora. Tihewa Mauriora, and welcome back to the Hui. Tonight we are joined by our panel of rangatira, nga morehu, survivors of abuse in state care, who participated in the hearings of the Royal Commission into Abuse in State Care, resulting in the report 'Whanaketia ` Through pain and trauma, from darkness to light', delivering 138 recommendations. So let's introduce the panel now. Joining us tonight are Eugene Ryder. E kara Eugene, tena koe. - Kia ora. - Also joining us, Ihorangi Reweti Peters. Ihorangi, tena koe. Nau mai. - Kia ora. - And we also have Paora Moyle. Paora, tena koe, nau mai. Nau mai, e aku rangatira, e nga toa o Ngati Morehu, tena koutou katoa. Thank you very much for being a part of our panel tonight. I want to start by getting your first initial thoughts and reactions when the report was released. What went through your mind, Eugene? - Oh, relief. Um... But always, always, you know, instilled in sadness. Relief because it had finally come out into the open. The speeches reflected that accountability had to be taken. And the government of today say that they're prepared to take that accountability. - We will delve more into that, but I want to get your reactions. Ihorangi? - I think the same as Eugene ` uh, relief. Uh, also sadness. Um... Yeah, sadness that we... have even had to have this inquiry. Um... yeah. - Mm. Tena koe. Paora? Pehea o whakaaro? - Yeah, I'm with the guys ` complete relief. But, um, you know, you feel the grief. You feel the loss. You reflect on the years of, um, the input. Every day is hard work. You know? You've got to keep contributing, and you look after one another as best you can. We've become quite a family. - Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Relief is a word that I've heard a lot. But immediately after I hear 'Relief', I also hear words like 'Action'. What is going to happen? So from the report itself have you seen enough to give you the view, to give you the perspective that action will occur? Eugene? - I think what's clear in the report is action is required. The level of action is what we're going to be facing in the next few weeks, months, years to come. But it's clear that even an apology is not relevant if it's not followed by action. So it's clear to me that action needs to be taken. - I do want to talk about apologies later on, but again, just jump in if you can, because the bit that people will wonder is whether or not it validated going through the` because going through the process in and of itself, of participating in the hearings and getting other people to participate in the hearings, whether or not you thought the report validated the experiences, not only through the process of the report, but what` and all the trauma of going through what you've gone through. - I think the report is really extensive, and none of us had any idea what it was gonna be like towards the end, and you don't know how you're going to react as survivor or survivor whanau, even. It takes time to go through all of this, even though you're familiar with aspects of the report. But the impact on yourself and the action` the action that's required, that's an absolute must. People ask me, 'How do you think about going forward? What's going to happen?' You don't really know. Do you have faith that the government will` I have to have faith. I don't have a choice. What else is there? This is where we are. - Ihorangi? - Yeah. Uh, definitely... Action is the` is the next step. For me personally, an apology is not gonna go far enough for the abuse that I have faced within the care of Oranga Tamariki. I think, um, actions... actions for me are more important than an apology. We need to make sure that abuse does not continue for our rangatahi, tamariki, pepe and whanau who have involvement with state and faith-based care institutions. - So can I ask, what do you make of the range of apologies? They cover most of the initial recommendations. The calls for apologies from leaders of faith-based religions ` the Pope, the Archbishop of Canterbury, Anglican Church and the Catholic Church, and other leaders of faith-based communities. What do you make of the range of apologies that are being sought for? - Yeah, I think it's... it's not hard to apologise. - (CHUCKLES) - And all of those that were responsible for the care, for want of a better word, of tamariki, even those that are leaders of those same institutions today owe it not only to those that were abused ` not everyone survived ` you know, and there are whanau there that still have questions. And so the least that can happen is that all of them... all of them play their part in the accountability, which will include an apology, but like Ihorangi said, you know... you know, words... words are words. Action is where the apology will actually be seen and felt. - Yeah. Anybody can apologise and say, 'I'm sorry for, you know, hurting you, harming you.' But we want to see a change. We don't want` The number one reason people came forward with these stories is to stop this in its tracks so that our mokopuna can go and live lives free from this kind of state intervention. - I have to say, reading the report, there are some moments where` where my heart just stopped, because everything in the report is backed up by survivors' experiences, by statements provided by survivors and the Royal Commission process itself. And one can't help but be struck by aroha for all of you, all survivors, and those, as you say, that did not make it. Reading those excerpts, reading those parts of the report, how did that make you feel? And I know that seems very glib, but for someone who reads it, I... my... my heart mamae. - Well, I'll put it to you like this. My boy once said to me, 'Mum,' when he knew I was struggling with life, uh... 'You're a hero. 'All of you fullas went through that in order to teach everybody else about their lack of humanity.' And in that moment, I realised what I'd been teaching my son all the way along, is that our lives mattered. What happened to us mattered. And the mark of change must come from this government keeping its word and implementing every single recommendation. - Mm. We are going to talk much more about the recommendations from the report in the next part of this panel interview. So stay with us. We have more from the Hui, including recommendations on reparations and also prosecutions. We're going to talk about that with our panel next on The Hui. - Kia ora mai ano. Ko te Hui tenei. And as mentioned earlier, 'Whanaketia ` Through pain and trauma, from darkness to light' has 138 recommendations. So we're going to talk about some of those now with our panel ` Eugene Ryder, Ihorangi Peters and Paora Moyle, who all participated in the Royal Commission hearings. Let's get into the recommendations. I want to raise one first ` Recommendation 21, the Whanau Harm payment of $10,000. What would you like` Should this be one of the first things that should happen now, even before the formal apology in November? What do we make of that particular recommendation? - Most definitely the impact that, um, you know, the trauma that survivors suffered, the impact that it had on whanau is huge. It's way more than what $10,000 will cover. You know, it's just` it's the fact that it's been acknowledged that there has been an impact. And we've seen throughout our lives the different levels of impact it's had on our whanau, our partners, our children. You know, it's` I'm glad that that has been pointed out as one of the recommendations. That should be. - We're not just talking nuclear whanau here, right? We're not talking nuclear family, we're talking whanau generations down, mokopuna. - Intergenerational trauma is worth much more than $10,000. - Yeah. - We need to have collective payments that really reflect... grandparents, parents, mokopuna. We` That's not enough. If that's the only figure that's in this report, I'm... I'm not in agreeance with it. I think it needs to be a whole lot more. And how do you... how do you assess that? - Do you see that as a starting point potentially? - Has to be right now, but it's gonna need to be a lot more. - Yeah. - I definitely think that this is a good starting point. But, like Paora said, there needs to be more. But I do think that this is a priority before the public apology, or at least the startings of the implementation of this scheme. - Do you think that if this is the urgent priority` if this is something that should urgently happen, it also shows that people are willing to act now in response to the report and its release. OK. I want to talk about other recommendations. 22, 23, 24 talk about prosecutions, from guidelines to training for prosecutors. How important is that as a suite of recommendations in this report, do you think? Because people will say, 'We wanna know who the abusers are. They should be named and shamed'. - Mm. Yeah, I think different survivors have different levels of what that might look like. Personally, I don't subscribe to naming and shaming some of these perpetrators. Most of whom that I know personally are someone's koro, someone's great-grandfather, someone's tipuna. And that's not to deny that that's, you know, that was their activity back in the '80s and '90s and '70s, but yeah, I know that different... different survivors want to see different kind of levels of accountability. - Mm. - Personally, I believe that, you know, our creator will find them and punish them for their sins. - Can you see, though, that other survivors might have a different view, because you are extremely forgiving? - Most definitely. You know, and some won't rest unless there's prosecution there, and I fully understand that. - Yeah, I can see nodding of head there and saying, 'Yeah'. Ihorangi. - Well, whether it's in this life or the next, people will be held to account... - Yep. - ...but I absolutely` I'm with Eugene, but I think that when you hold our whanau, parents to account... OT holds them to account. They need to be held accountable too. And heads need to roll when our tamariki are still getting harmed in the care of OT. - Yeah, OK. I do wanna pick up on that point if I can, but, Ihorangi, just to come back to you, because I saw you nodding your head, talking about perpetrators getting named and shamed. - Yeah, I think I'm with Eugene and Paora on this. Yeah. Naming and shaming has its benefits, but it also has its downsides. I'm leaning more towards we shouldn't name and shame them, but I think digging deeper into what those recommendations are is there does need to be... clear training for prosecutors... for judges. And I think it's a start, but I think it could go further. - OK. And that's particularly important from survivors, right? So, taking into account survivors' perspectives for any training, whether it be judges or prosecutors or anything like that. - Yep. - Recommendation 43 proposes a review, and this is where I wanted to go to, Paora, based on the statement you just made. In the interim, until the Care Safe Agency is established, of the functions and powers of current agencies responsible for care services, should heads of agencies ` for example, the head of a department like Oranga Tamariki ` be able to be prosecuted for their lack of responsibility in looking after those in state care? - Yeah, well, I don't know at the end of the day about that, but I know... here's what I do know ` If there isn't some form of accountability, if you're just gonna sit there and earn your buck and not be held to account for kids that are currently being abused in our system... - Mm. - ...then it's just gonna keep on happening. So, there has to be some accountability and it has to come from the top. - People might say ministers, not heads of government departments, CEOs. - I'm talking OT, I'm talking the Chappie Te Kani's of this world. They need to go, and so does Maori Advisory Group. That's my personal opinion. If our tamariki are getting harmed under your watch, you need to be held accountable, otherwise nothing changes. - And I think just picking up on what Paora said earlier, if a` if one of our tamariki has been abused in the whanau... - Yes. - ...then there's a prosecution, and that tamaiti is taken off that whanau. If it happens within state care, there doesn't seem to be a prosecution, and the tamaiti remains in state care. Something has to change in that space. - The police has also been asked, or there is a recommendation that the police, a specialist unit, is established, that will investigate abusers, and the new proposed system will hold these people to account. That's part of recommendation 35 of the report. Do you collectively trust the police to be able to undertake that work so that people are held to account? - From my personal experience, going through the process of raising my concerns with the police, I` it wasn't a good experience. I think... something does need to be done. It may be a start that this is housed within the New Zealand Police, but I think I will` I'm always faithful... that this will work, but from my own personal experience... - Mm. - ...I don't trust the police. - I don't think we've gotta give in to the fact that it's gonna continue. You know, we have an opportunity to not wait for a child to be abused before it's investigated. Things can change systemically so that those children that are vulnerable aren't in a space where they are going to get` So that whole recommendation for me is at the bottom of a cliff... - Yep. - ...it's` to wait for something to happen before it's investigated. - Right. It's the fundamental change in the system itself that's required, and as Eugene says, this is potentially something that's lower down the order, but what's required, Paora, potentially, is the fundamental change in the system itself. Do you think that will occur from what you've seen in the report? - I think there's a lot of work to do to change a system that is inherently violent right across the board, and, you know, Aotearoa is a lovely country, beautiful country. There's a lot of ugly in it. We have systemic and structural violence going on that's perpetrated by the system, upon the very` I'm bringing out research at the moment that draws the link between violence and homelessness, and... the ones most impacted are the wahine who have had state care backgrounds, got mokopuna and are homeless. You know, they wear the burden of the violence. They're turned away from everywhere. We have to start looking at how this is tracked all the way through. They never get rid of it. And that's systemic's violence. That has to be a part of changing. - Tena koutou. He korero ano i te haere ake nei ` stay with us. Kia u, e te iwi. We have much more with our panel after this. We're also talking boot camps on The Hui after the break. - E rere tonu ana, nga mihi ki a koutou katoa. Hoki mai ano ki Te Hui. We have our panel, Eugene Ryder, Ihorangi Reweti Peters and Paora Moyle with us here tonight. Nga toa o Ngati Morehu, kei konei i tenei wa. OK, so the first government boot camp was opened today, or the revival of government boot camps was opened today. That's today. Given the amount of abuse that happened in facilities like boot camps previously, what are your thoughts about the fact that boot camps are now being reopened in Aotearoa New Zealand? - It's a muppet decision. It's a crock of... shite. You can't hold... a boot camp... report in one hand, and then be opening boot camp on the other. It contradicts. There's huge harm in boot camps. I don't want to see our boys, and 90% of them Maori, trained up in military styles to become nice, white-thinking, behaving, conforming Pakeha kids. - Yeah, I think the first thing we gotta do is lose that label. We already have negative connotations on our reality of boot camp. And as the minister said, we can't do what we've done, yet it seems like we're doing what we've done. And we shouldn't expect any outcomes that are different from the outcomes when that focus was there. There does need to be some systemic change. In my mind, you know, change Oranga Tamariki to Oranga Whanau. It's all very well taking a person out of their whanau environment, making them good for three to 12 months ` they're inevitably gonna go back into the environment that got them there in the first place. No mahi's been done with the whanau or the community that they're gonna go back to, so that's where that kind of change needs to happen. - I think in any case, what needs to happen is that... the young person, the tamariki or rangatahi, is at the centre. There is` The needs of... the young person are met, and... that it's` that they are provided with the appropriate and adequate support to make sure that they can live a happy and healthy life. - That requires massive change from the current system. And of course, we have a government with a current policy process and implementation strategy that is looking at` well, let's take a look at public service cuts. What's being proposed here is a new state care service. There's lots of other things ` independent commissions that are being talked about, or independent services as well that are being talked about here. You know, alignment with Treaty principles. 7AA as a part of recommendation 14. There's lots that's gonna require resource here. Do we fundamentally believe that that's going to occur, given current policy settings? - It has to occur. The extent of accountability shouldn't be determined by term of government. the next government needs to be accountable as well, and every government after that. So I don't think we can put` you know, change isn't gonna happen overnight. I have so many friends and nieces and nephews that have done LSV, and for three months they were perfect, and a month after they're a little bit perfect. And then they got back into their normal behaviours. So there needs to be follow up support. One of the things I wanted to mention around what accountability might look like is a potential day of remembrance for all those that lost their lives, for all those that have been abused. And today there are people that can't talk, they can't speak, they can't hear, they can't see, that are in state care. They need to be addressed as well. There's a whole range of issues that need to be addressed, but it needs to start somewhere. - There are` Yeah, there's 100%... a lot of change that needs to happen. And I agree with Eugene. There should be a national day of remembrance. Reading through the survivor experiences in the Commission's final report ` it was harrowing. And there were a lot of` there were a lot of things that could have been done better. Like Eugene said, there were people who are now in state care, but also back between 1950 to 1999, who couldn't talk, who had disabilities. And this is` 100% a national day of remembrance should happen. - Our whanau are still here. They still need care, and they belong to us. Nobody should be making decisions` The state shouldn't be making decisions about people they don't love. It should always be around the care and protection needs of children and made by their whanau or people who are interested and care a bloody brass razoo about them. That's what I fundamentally believe. And change will take years. - Mm. Mm. I just want to ask each of you one last question, because there'll be people watching this programme now who are policymakers, who are implementers of the recommendations that have been proposed in this report, and will have a position and a level of influence to be able to make change. What's the last message you want to share and make to them? - Imagine if that was your child that got abused. Imagine if that was you as a child that got abused. This has now become a reality for Aotearoa. There was a long time when nobody knew that what happened happened. Now they know. There's no excuses. None at all. - What has happened is a national disgrace. Everyone in Aotearoa should read Whanaketia. - I want Christopher Luxon to hold his word. Everything he popped out and said to us ` I want him to keep his word. And I would like to see the recommendations roll out. There are some things that still need to be built on. Yeah, it's for everybody. And the... It just needs to stop. The care` The abuse of children and vulnerable adults has to stop. And I want this government to get back to caring and being transparent about the way in which we care for people. New Zealand shouldn't be an ugly place in those spaces. - E aku rangatira, tena koutou katoa. You mentioned a word earlier, but the one that comes to my mind when I read this report was just 'aroha'. - Mm. - And` So thank you for being a part of our panel tonight. But also, on behalf of those who didn't get the invitation from us to be a part of our panel, thank you also for the advocacy work that you're doing with the responsibilities that you all have now, but particularly for being mangai for many others who couldn't be here tonight, and aren't with us now. Tena koutou katoa. E aku rangatira, nga mihi nui. Eugene, Ihorangi, Paora, tena koutou katoa. A kati. E te iwi, e rere ana, nga mihi ki a koutou katoa. Thank you for joining this very special programme indeed, tonight, of The Hui. Ki a koutou nga morehu, e rere tonu ana te aroha ki a koutou katoa. Kia mau ki te turanga o Taputapuatea. Haumi e, hui e... ALL: Taiki e! Captions were made with the support of NZ On Air. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2024