- Tihei Mauriora ki te whei ao, ki te taiao, ki te ao Marama! He toi rangi, he toi matua, he toi tangata! Ki a au e! Tihei Mauriora! Ko te Hui tenei e mihi atu nei. Haumi e, hui e, taiki e! This week on the Hui ` from the re-establishment of boot camps for youth offenders to the potential disestablishment of Maori wards across the motu, our panellists weigh in on the latest from the Beehive. Plus, she's the wahine from Te Arawa who has survived cancer and is now fighting fit. - Get rid of that 60 bowel screening age, which is just dumb. - Te hunga e poroporoakitia ana e nga iwi o te motu. Haere mai, haere. Tatou kei te pito ora. Tihewa Mauriora, and welcome back to the Hui. Ko nga aukume o te ao torangapu tei ho. Politics is alive and kicking in Aotearoa. Maori wards potentially gone; proposed amendments to MACAA, Marine and Coastal Area Act; iwi potentially marching to Parliament over things like 7AA; and boot camps are back. To discuss this, and much more, we have our political panel of powerhouses to my left now. We have RNZ political reporter Lillian Hanly. E ko te nga koe. We also have with us here now Auckland University criminology lecturer Emmy Rakete. Tena koe, Emmy. And back with us again, Dr Lara Greaves, Associate Professor of Politics at Victoria University. Te ahorangi tena koe hoki mai. - (SIGHS) Kia ora. - What's that look for? - I'm tired. I'm just tired. - That's not the way to kick off the show! - We're like, what, eight months into the term? I'm tired. - (LAUGHS) Really? - Yeah. - Are you tired because it feels like there's a lot of talk about Maori issues, take Maori, from this coalition government? - I'm tired cos I think there were a lot of things that we were taking for granted under the last government, and perhaps even earlier governments. I mean, we've seen comments from John Key over the weekend at the National Party conference about Maori politics. And I think` I don't know, my whole lifetime, leading now into my 30s, I've just kind of taken a lot of, sort of, maybe 'progress' or 'regains,' or whatever you wanna talk about in terms of Maori politics and policy ` I feel like I've taken a lot of it for granted. - Emmy, that was an interesting comment that John Key made at the National Party get-together in the weekend. It was interesting, because I don't know if he was talking to the party, per se, or if he was talking to the coalition government, or if he's talking to the country to tone it down on Maori issues. Do you think people are gonna listen? - Um, I don't think people can. Um, Key always posed himself as a kind of neoliberal manager, right? He was kind of the` um, the Stalin of the neoliberal revolution. He was here to consolidate all of the gains that the ruling class made during the 1980s, and try to kind of settle things down and get things under control. And what he's finding now is that he unleashed a bunch of forces that you can't put back in the box, right? And that's why we've got this kind of three-headed beast in government. It relies on racism. It's always relied on racism. It's just being a bit more up front about that racism now. - Lillian, there's a lot of reportage of Maori issues ` even last week with the Iwi Leaders' Hui, here in Tamaki Makaurau. There's a lot of reporting on Maori` take Maori happening now. - Tika. Tika, yeah, there is, there is a lot. And I think that tension, we can all feel it, and everyone is quite aware of it. Even in Parliament last week, many politicians from across the isle, I suppose, all kind of referenced it. We had the Minister for Children crying on TV. We've had also Willie Jackson kind of acknowledging that Parliament is tense at the moment, but many people would point to government policies for the reason of that tension. - Were you surprised when you heard that people had walked out of the Iwi Leaders' Hui with the government? Because that has never happened before. It's unprecedented. And, you know, there's a view that iwi leaders are fairly conservative, really, in terms of Maori politics. - Yes, I suppose I would say I was surprised ` perhaps not necessarily for the reason, but the fact that they did it, and also then passed a motion to say that they didn't want to invite the government back to korero, right? And so I think something important, though, around the Iwi Leaders' Forum is that it is a point of engagement. It was something also that John Key and his government saw as something really, really important to engage with. Um, we've also seen in... The Prime Minister, Christopher Luxon, is engaging with the Iwi Leaders' Forum. We as media have actually not been alerted to some of these meetings, and you can read into that what you will, but Christopher Luxon is trying to engage, and I guess a point to be made around the iwi leaders is whether it's a point of engagement that needs to remain or not. But given that significant move, we can see that that Maori are quite serious about what's going on. - What did you make of things like the walkout, Ngati Wai calling the Crown to account, saying, 'Get out of our takiwa,' when it comes to MACAA? As I say, this is a fairly conservative group, and yet they're being very direct with the Crown. - Yeah. So, one of the big questions ` and it's a big question in indigenous politics internationally ` is whether you're part of the demos, you're part of the political process, the western colonial one or not. And I think the way that I phrased it in the past ` teaching Maori politics is like, do you sit at the table? Are you that seat at the table? The first wave of the Maori Party were. Or do you just, like, throw the table away because it's rotten and it's terrible? And so at a point, people have to balance that seat at the table. Do you sit there or do you not? Because the whole rules of engagement and the way that things are going are just so wrong. So that's the been the age-old discussion, I think, a major discussion in Maori politics heading back to the 1960s and 1970s, or even earlier than that, actually, since the start of colonisation. So it's like, that has been the big dilemma. And I think that a lot of people are deciding now that they don't wanna sit at that table. - Do you think, though, that it's a flow-on effect from what the Maori Party has been saying about things? 'Right ` it's time to set up our whare paremata, or our own approach, certainly, to a parliament, 'a separate Maori system in Aotearoa.' Is this now people following on from that sentiment, going, 'This is the first stages of building and developing and evolving that,' do you think? - Well, I think things could hit a point. And I mean, that's kind of like in any political system or political situation ` it's the idea that something might swing so far one way that actually it swings all the way back the other way, because people realise, like, how ridiculous it is, and I guess, that's where that ground is potentially opening up. But I wouldn't necessarily say that it's going to` you know, things are going to swing back to that way again. Going back to before, my comments, like, a lot of things we're taking for granted. And I think that that's where people want to get back to, is, potentially, a lot of people want to get back to even the incremental gains, let alone, you know, something a bit more substantive than that. - And we still got a lot of things coming down the line, Emmy. 7AA, Treaty principles ` wholly related, of course ` but 7AA Treaty principles; um, things like, you know, Maori Wars, which was just passed, that legislation that happened over the last couple of days, or the last week. I mean, these are big issues at the moment, and it feels like a lot of people are getting subsumed by the current coalition government's approach to Maori issues. - I think that there's a high-level, like, organic sentiment about right now, right? There are very few centrists to be found. Like, I'm not sure if there are any around anymore. Um, which is good and bad, right? Rejoice ` times are unbearable. Um, it means that on one hand, we get things like these race riots in the UK, where right-wing mobs are attacking any kind of brown person that they can find on the street. Um, but it also means that there is opposition to that too, right? We've seen, like, the activations that Te Pati Maori has been calling for. I think that I would hesitate to say, though, that Te Pati Maori is leading or causing any of this stuff. I think that there is pressure here, and that pressure will take whatever form of expression it can get. And so if it means that Te Pati Maori says the right thing at the right moment, then people will mobilise behind it. But that force is out there to be kind of called up. I think that the Iwi Leaders' Forum has responded to that force. I think that other groups could too. I come from an activist background. I wanna make use of this energy as well, cos if we don't, it's gonna go to waste. - And of course, we also saw the release of the Royal Commission's report into abuse in state care, and then two days, three days later, the opening of a boot camp in Aotearoa. What do you make of that approach by the government? And timing just seemed different. Weird. - Yeah. Potentially unfortunate for the government. I was actually at the tabling of the report at Parliament, and it was quite overwhelming, the sentiment, in the sense from those in the public gallery who were many survivors in attendance literally yelling over and over again, 'No more boot camps.' And then the government turning around the week after and actually starting their` what they call the military youth academies. So this is` it's so heated right now, and it's so focussed. You have so many people pointing to the report saying, 'There is evidence here 'that this is not OK and it has caused harm, and yet you are doing it again,' although the government is saying, and they have over and over again said that this is going to be different. In that regard, though, they haven't yet provided a whole lot of evidence as to how it would be different. I've covered a couple of stories, just in terms of exactly how much engagement they've had, or little or lack of engagement with Mana Whenua, and also in terms of them` The thing that they continue to say that makes it different is the transition to community phase. So the embedding of community organisations who will awhi these tamariki, but actually the engagement that they had with those providers was only a few weeks out from it starting. - And I wanna press further about the way in which we're holding political leaders to account and some issues that have accrued out of that. So stay with us; we have more with our political panel powerhouses on The Hui after this. Hoki mai ano ki tatou hui torangapu. Our political panel, Dr Lara Greaves, Emmy Rakete and Lillian Hanly, are with us now. It was interesting, the response from the minister, Karen Chhour, to what was robust, but questions in Parliament and also interviewing, pressing for details around policy and the implementation of policy. What do you make of... the accusation, potentially, that people have crossed the line in trying to hold ministers to account, and in particular, the example with the Honourable Karen Chhour? - Yeah, I think` I mean, there certainly has to be a balance, right, or a focus on the policy. And across the board, like I said, there was conversations last week in Parliament from various politicians who did say it does need to be focused on policy. And I would argue that, actually, a lot of the questioning around this issue, like I've said, there hasn't been a lot of detail. So actually, it's been a fact-finding mission, and sometimes you really do have to interrogate. - I see a lot of nodding of heads here. You know, that the accusation was, of course, that people were pushed too far. But what I'm getting is I don't think people have; it's just holding people to account. Ministerial warrants and portfolios. - I find it a bit tricky, because, look, I agree that politics, Parliament should be held up and should` you know, the terms of debate, you know, the tikanga should be, you know, highlighted and good and positive and, like, an area we could see diverse people, etc., etc. OK, positive, cool, yay. But also, when you are going to make policy, you're meant to provide the reasons for the policy. And at times, Minister Chhour does say, 'The reason we're doing this policy is I know because I'm care-experienced, 'and this was my experience.' And so that's where it gets a bit murky, because she's giving her own case as a rationale for policy for thousands` hundreds of thousands of people. And so that's where perhaps the tone of the critique could be maybe a bit different. But when you do use your experience as a rationale and anecdotes as a rationale for policy rather than the bulk of the evidence, that's what will happen. - Emmy. - There's nothing that's more important than children. Right? It feels almost stupid to have to say that. And we've just tabled evidence that 200,000 children and young people were raped, tortured or abused under policies looking very much like exactly what Chhour is putting forward. So I think that there is every reason for the debate to be incredibly robust. This is one of the most important decisions that we're going to make as a country. And Chhour is whiffing it because she can't bring forward any evidence to support her position. So of course people are getting mad at her. If she doesn't like that, maybe she should put forward a policy that isn't incredibly dangerous. - I wanna talk about councils, and in in particular Maori wards. We've seen the new legislation that was passed. And councils have had varying degrees of response to that legislation. People will say, though ` some might say ` 'Well, it doesn't` Why would Maori worry about this?' Cos Maori don't get out and vote in local body elections. I mean, look what happened in Tauranga with Ria Hall. Mahe Drysdale cleaned up there. People aren't getting out and voting in local body elections. Does it matter whether or not we have Maori wards, ahorangi? - Well, I think, look, we've been talking about democracy, having a discussion, what democracy looks like and what it looks like in Aotearoa. I hear the word 'democracy, democracy, democracy' everywhere, all the time. And some of the rationale for these Maori wards is to have proper policy input from Maori in the electorate. That person, who is the Maori ward councillor, that then becomes their job to go and seek out and represent Maori and think, 'What are some Maori views? What are manawhenua views? What are Maata Waka views in this area?' That, like, becomes their job. So that helps, like, evolve our version of democracy and helps there be policy input, because, yeah, again, one of the basic ideas behind democracy is we have policies, and we justify them in some way. Like, this is actually in Western political thought, the kind of stuff that, you know, David Seymour and others cite all of the time as being democracy. - Other issues I want to explore ` so, National government released policy yesterday. Mass curriculum. It is not a government of inaction. Right? It's looking at things like sacking boards; (LAUGHS) big focus on infrastructure; trying to deal with the economy, apparently; sacking health boards and the like. And yet its support has stayed pretty stable in polls at 38%. The Prime Minister's support is rising now to 33%. Is this a fact of the government being seen to be doing things and therefore has maintained the same level of support? Or was it simply the fact that the opposition has been effective enough in holding this government to account? Thoughts? - Potentially both at the same time. We're still fairly early in the political term, perhaps, and I think` I mean, you spoke about the National Party AGM this weekend ` John Key speaking to the fact that, you know, they've managed` or Christopher Luxon has managed to manage this coalition in a way which is seeing them to be getting things done. They are in government; here's the list of things that they're going to do, and they're working their way through them. At the same time, you do have... I would argue there's somewhat effective opposition. We spoke about, I guess, being at the table and not being at the table; you've got Te Pati Maori, who are very effective in raising opposition online and outside parliament, I would argue; and then you also have Labour, who... again, early days for them ` they claim they are still kind of figuring themselves out and so perhaps not as effective as they could be, but that's because they haven't figured out what they're trying to be effective at. I would argue, though, there is a Ayesha Verrall, who has been quite good at prosecuting the health stuff recently. It's got, you know, doctor v doctor. And then you do have the Greens, who are dealing with a lot of issues themselves, potentially holding them back from being effective. - Let's talk about the Green Party. It was interesting to see the response from the Pasifika Wahanga of the Green Party come out and have a crack at the leadership, actually, not just in what's happened with Darleen Tana, but the treatment of wahine Maori within the Green Party. Again, something that we haven't seen before. And I thought that was an interesting thing to observe and for that to happen. - Yeah, well, the Greens are always an interesting case. I feel like over the last few years, they'll be, you know, doing media things. Everyone's always like, 'The Greens, they're not so good at being a political party.' And, yeah, they just aren't. (CHUCKLES) They fundamentally have this happened time and time again. I think that they think of themselves as a group that are pro Te Tiriti, and I think that they will think longer and harder about it than any of us potentially will. You know, like, I can imagine the soul-searching and the thinking about the Maori and Pacific dynamics that will go on in that party. I'm sure it will be intense. I'm sure it'll be very long (LAUGHS) and detailed. But, yeah, that has obviously been a bit of a challenge for them and not quite having the full suite of candidates in the Maori seats, I imagine is something in future they'll wanna rectify. - Yeah, we don't normally see this play out in public, though, eh, Emmy? They normally keep this under wraps, so for them to come out publicly and state this was interesting. - It would have been probably nicer for the Greens if it had stayed under wraps. I will say, though, their support hasn't collapsed during all of this stuff, so I think that it's having less of an effect on their base than people would expect it to. I think people saw that Golriz had a predictable meltdown from the way that she was being treated, and have been willing to say that it is kind of not the party's deal. It's not kind of an indictment of the Greens structurally, and they seem to be doing kind of fine. - OK. I want to ask another question. It's not actually about New Zealand politics, but I feel we should talk about it. Donald Trump or Kamala Harris ` who wins, ahorangi? - I actually, like, would not put money on this at all. - You think it's too close to call? - I just think it's too close to call. Like, honestly, fundamentally, like, we'd just not even know. Like, I just` I've stopped trying to predict politics. (SNORTS) - (LAUGHS) - No, I haven't. I'll just try and predict Maori politics, the easy one. No, I won't. But, no, like, it's too close to me. It's too hard to figure out. - Are we even wor`? Should people even worry about it, Emmy? - No. Neither president is going to end the genocide in Gaza. Neither candidate has shown any real interest in dealing with any of the fundamental issues of American imperialism. We're all under the boot. We're not likely to get out of the boot regardless of who is wearing it. This race doesn't have anything to do with humanity's future. They're both villains. - I'm also not gonna put money on it and choose, but I guess from a political perspective or something that Aotearoa could engage with them on, considering the kind of different paths that may come out of various... president, whoever wins, Kamala being potentially the status quo, as we've seen with Joe Biden, potentially Trump. In terms of how that might impact our trading relationships, things like that could have an impact. - Could have an impact. Ako rangatira, tena koutou. Thank you very much for your time. Thank you very much all for your perspective. Nga mihi nui ki a koutou katoa. Me nga mihi ki to tatou taumata tapui tamaka. Stay with us. Taro kau iho ana he uri no Te Arawa e tuhaha ana i te ao o te ora. The inspirational Lisa Maxwell is up next. Kua huri ta tatou Hui iaianei ki tetahi hui hauora. A Te Arawa wahine has beaten bowel cancer to be centrestage in the extreme sport of bodybuilding, and she's bringing the same determination to changing the health system. Mea nei te purongo a Meriana Johnsen. - I'll get changed. - OK. - Yeah. You all right there? - I'd wolf-whistle, but there's a camera on you. - (LAUGHS) (FUNKY MUSIC) It's so extreme. It's hard. - It's kind of seen as a bit out there. - Yeah, I'm out there. (CELL PHONE RINGS) - Lisa Maxwell is in the best shape of her life... - Lift your chest up. Yup. - ...just days out from the South Island Bodybuilding Champs. What is the most extreme part of your preparation? - It's gotta be the diet. (LAUGHS) It's gotta be the diet. 120 chicken; we've got the fish; we've got the baked pumpkin. It's very precise. - Three-tier steamer. (BOTH LAUGH) - Husband Dean ` her mostly reliable personal assistant. - We left here one time, and we were at the airport, and she says, 'Have you got my meal now?' I says, 'It's in the fridge. I thought you had it.' - Oh, it was divorce. - A few years back, Lisa was trying to shed her post-baby weight. - The gym that I was going to at the time, the manager suggested that, 'Hey, Lisa, there's this bodybuilding competition 'that's coming to Invercargill. Why don't you have a go at that?' And that was the same year that I actually got diagnosed. I remember it all like it was yesterday. It was a Saturday. I'd just finished work. I needed to go to the toilet, so I thought, 'I'll go to the toilet, and passed a bowel motion, and I thought, 'Oh, that's really windy. That's kind of weird. OK.' And then I felt something. I thought, 'What's that?' Got the toilet paper, wiped my bottom and had a look, and there was, like, a big blood clot on the paper. And I just instantly thought of my dad. - Lisa's dad died of bowel cancer in 2008. Three weeks after finding the blood clot, Lisa was in hospital. - Even the surgeon that performed the colonoscopy said, 'You probably won't have cancer. 'It'll probably` It could be something else.' I'm like, 'OK.' And she actually said to me, 'You're too young.' There was one part when I saw this black thing, and then she'll come out with the scope and then go back into it, and I'm like, 'I wonder what that is.' And it was then that she said to me, 'Are you looking at`? Can you see what I'm seeing, Lisa?' And I'm like, 'Yeah. What's that?' She said, 'I think that's cancerous.' It wasn't probably until the next day that... you know, you've got the highest of high emotions, and then the next thing, you're on your knees, sobbing, and it's... it's pretty primal. Yeah, it's... It was a shock. All of a sudden, things that you thought were relevant aren't. - Like...? - Routine. (EXHALES HEAVILY) So from the 'I' down to a 'Y'. 'I think life just got a bit more real. 'Everything that I do now, it has more meaning.' Nice. OK, and up. - Lisa is now a personal trainer. - 'I've always had that interest in the gym, 'and I just wanted to explore more of that so I could help people.' And we'll just bring them up a little bit higher. - Jolene Jones was 40 when she was diagnosed with the same cancer. - Sometimes I'll just message Lisa randomly and I'll say, 'Oh, it's... it's time for my six-monthly bloods.' - You know, you get your scans. It takes you back. - Yeah. - Takes you right back. - One of the scary things about bowel cancer is for a lot of people, by the time they get symptoms, the cancer's already spread, and those people have a way lower chance of cure. - A new study points to an alarming trend, and Dr Oliver Waddell wants to change the way we screen. - The rates of bowel cancer in those under 50 between 2000 and 2020 rose by 26% per decade. And when we look at what's happening in Maori, unfortunately, it's rising even faster, at about 36% per decade. - And why do you think that is? - That could be due to inequitable access to investigations such as colonoscopies; it could be due to people not seeking help when they develop symptoms. - Is there an inequity in referrals between Maori and non-Maori? - There is, yep. - I got mine in three weeks. I was very fortunate. And, um, this is gonna sound terrible, but being a Maori woman, I was even more amazed. - Maori, unfortunately, are more likely to die from bowel cancer once diagnosed than non-Maori. Being a young doctor, most people that you deal with with cancer are older than you, so it's been very confronting interviewing so many people in recent years that are essentially my age, um, with bowel cancer. And already several of those people that I interviewed have passed away from their disease, so it's pretty scary. - He's calling for the screening age to be dropped to 45. - Get rid of that 60 bowel screening age, which is just dumb. - Just loosen your muscles. - Lisa is also calling for more treatment options after suffering a rare reaction to chemotherapy. - I was clutching my chest, and I couldn't see straight. My jaw was painful. I thought, 'What's happening to me? 'Am I going to make it to hospital in time?' And I'd had, like, basically a heart attack. Thank goodness there was no damage to the heart, but was told, 'You can't have chemo; it will kill you.' So I have a scar all the way down to the pubic bone and had a third of a bowel removed. - Now the scar is covered by her whakapapa. And ahead of the champs, Lisa is feeling stronger than ever. - I don't know what's going to happen on Saturday. I have no idea. I just know that there's gonna be amazing physiques. It's nice to get a place, but I like to think about... 'Have I changed? Yes, I have.' So tick. - # Make you pick it up and kiss it to unlock it. # Put it in your pocket... - It's showtime ` the ICN South Island Championships in Christchurch are ready to kick off. Out back, competitors do a last-minute pump. - Oh, nearly there for chocolate. Nearly there for it. You think about` You dream about some of the lollies that you can have. (APPLAUSE) - Lisa's first up in the Women's 50+ category. - Relax. Face the rear. (UPBEAT POP MUSIC PLAYS) Rear double biceps. (APPLAUSE) And finally, it's the moment they've all been waiting for. - Your 'Ms Figure' South Island Classic 50+ Champion ` Number 252, Lisa Maxwell. (CHEERING, APPLAUSE) - I never thought in a hundred years I'd ever be in a bikini, but, you know, after going through being ill, it was a climb back to life. It was a climb back... (CHUCKLES TEARFULLY) Sorry. Happy tears. This is just something else that... 'Yes, I can do this.' - Fuu, haramai ne. E mihi ana. And for more information, you can go to Bowel Cancer New Zealand's website. Hei nga wiki tata e haere ake nei, e te iwi ` coming up soon on The Hui ` - Ngati Whakaue potter Kaeleb Ngatai is a clay creative... - You start off with a ball of clay, and then from there, you can literally make anything. - ...discovering pottery after one of his darkest times... - They explained it to me as like having a car crash ` just like a car crash for your brain. - ...now sharing his journey through his business, Kaelebs Kups. - And my wairua's in every piece I make. - That is us for this week, e te iwi. Join us for more next week on The Hui. Kia mau ki te turanga o Taputapuatea. Haumi e, hui e, taiki e. ('THE HUI' THEME) Captions by Julie Taylor, Maia Carr Heke and Maeve Kelly. Captions were made with the support of NZ On Air. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2024 - Ko te reo te take.