CAPTIONS BY TOM CLARKE AND JASON CONRAN. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ COPYRIGHT ABLE 2025 TENA KOUTOU. NAU MAI, HAERE MAI. WELCOME TO Q+A. I'M JACK TAME. TODAY ` THE KIWI FARMERS WHO DON'T WANT THE GOVERNMENT TO LOOSEN OUR GENETIC ENGINEERING LAWS. PLUS ` AS PARLIAMENT PREPARES TO VOTE ON THE TREATY PRINCIPLES BILL, WE ASK WHAT'S NEXT FOR IT'S HIGHEST PROFILE OPPOSITION. BUT WE BEGIN THIS MORNING WITH THE FALLOUT FROM DONALD TRUMP'S SO-CALLED LIBERATION DAY, WITH TRADE TARIFFS INTRODUCED FOR COUNTRIES AROUND THE WORLD. IT MARKS A PROFOUND CHANGE IN THE GEOPOLITICAL ENVIRONMENT. AND AS LABOUR'S FOREIGN AFFIAIRS SPOKESPERSON, DAVID PARKER, HAS PROPOSED A SERIES OF PROPOSALS IN TRADE, DEFENCE, AND INTERNATIONAL AID, WHICH HE SAYS SHOULD SHAPE NEW ZEALAND'S RESPONSE. WELL, I DON'T THINK THE FIRST ROUND EFFECTS OF THOSE TARIFFS WILL BE PARTICULARLY SIGNIFICANT FOR THE WHOLE NEW ZEALAND ECONOMY. THERE MAY BE SOME INDIVIDUAL BUSINESSES THAT HAVE SOME SERIOUS CONSEQUENCES, BUT IT'S LESS THAN 0.2% OF NEW ZEALAND'S GDP. I THINK THE MORE IMPORTANT THING IS IT'S ANOTHER STEP IN THE UNWINDING OF THE RULES-BASED ORDER THAT WE'VE EXPERIENCED THAT'S REALLY HELPED THE WORLD SINCE WORLD WAR II. YOU KNOW, THE UN'S IN TATTERS. THE OECD IS PRETTY INEFFECTIVE ON TAX MATTERS. THE WORLD TRADE ORGANISATION IS OBVIOUSLY INEFFECTIVE. YOU KNOW, THE U.S. HAS PULLED OUT OF THE WORLD HEALTH ORGANISATION. THINGS ARE IN PRETTY DIRE STATE. ALL OF THE ECONOMIC PUNDITS ARE SAYING THERE'S A SLOWDOWN COMING IN THE WORLD ECONOMY. THERE'S A PATHWAY THROUGH FOR NEW ZEALAND. I DON'T THINK NEW ZEALAND NEEDS TO PANIC, AND WE CERTAINLY SHOULDN'T PUT IN COUNTERVAILING TARIFFS. IS THERE POSSIBLE FOR SOME GOOD TO COME OUT OF THIS? WELL, LOOK, YOU KNOW, AS IN ALL THINGS, THERE'S GENERALLY TWO SIDES TO EVERY STORY, AND THERE IS SOME LEGITIMATE COMPLAINT ON THE PART OF THE U.S. IN RESPECT OF THE MASSIVE GOOD SURPLUS OF THE U.S. IN RESPECT OF THE MASSIVE GOODs SURPLUS THAT'S RUN BY THE LIKES OF GERMANY AND TO A CERTAIN EXTENT CANADA BECAUSE OF THE TARIFFS THEY'VE IMPOSED ON THE U.S. SO IT IS POSSIBLE, I SUPPOSE, THAT THESE THINGS WILL BE REVISITED, AND SOME OF THOSE THINGS WOULD BE... WOULD BE, YOU KNOW, REMEDY. AND SOME OF THOSE THINGS WOULD BE... WOULD BE, YOU KNOW, REMEDIED. NOW, IF THEY ARE, WHAT HAPPENS NEXT IS THE QUESTION. AND YOU MIGHT HAVE SAID THAT I THINK THAT WE SHOULD BE TRYING TO GET EUROPE INTO CPTPP. YEAH. TALK TO US ABOUT THAT BECAUSE CPTPP IS, YOU KNOW, OBVIOUSLY CENTRAL TO NEW ZEALAND'S CURRENT TRADE STANDING. THE UK IS PART OF IT, THE EU NOT YET. THAT'S CORRECT. NOW, CPTPP IS ESSENTIALLY AHEAD OF WORLD TRADE ORGANISATION RULES NOW. IT'S A REALLY GOOD AGREEMENT. IF WE COULD GET EUROPE IN THERE ` IT'S ALREADY GOT A LOT OF ASIA IN JAPAN, CANADA, MEXICO, US, AUSTRALIA; IN, JAPAN, CANADA, MEXICO, US, AUSTRALIA; IT WAS ACTUALLY ORIGINALLY A NEW ZEALAND INITIATIVE WITH SINGAPORE AND A COUPLE OF OTHER COUNTRIES ` THAT WOULD EFFECTIVELY BECOME THE DE FACTO WORLD TRADE ORGANISATION, IN MY VIEW. SO I THINK THE NEW ZEALAND GOVERNMENT TRADE OFFICIALS ` WHO ARE OUTSTANDING, BY THE WAY ` THEY SHOULD BE ON THEIR BIKE TO EUROPE TO SEE WHETHER THAT'S A POSSIBILITY. I WAS IN EUROPE A FEW WEEKS AGO. THIS IDEA WAS MENTIONED TO ME BY SOMEONE WHO IS VERY SENIOR IN TRADE CHANNELS OVER THERE, BUT I THINK IT RELIES AS A PREREQUISITE PROBABLY ON SOME AGREEMENT BEING REACHED BETWEEN THE U.S. AND EUROPE. RIGHT. WHAT DID YOU MAKE OF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION'S ASSESSMENT THAT NEW ZEALAND PUTS A 20% TARIFF ON THE U.S.? WELL, IT'S A FABRICATION. IT'S AN UNTRUTH. IT'S NOT TRUE. GST IS A CONSUMPTION TAX. IT'S NOT A TARIFF. AND IF WE DIDN'T DO THAT WHEN PEOPLE IMPORT GOODS, NEW ZEALAND MANUFACTURERS WOULD BE CLEANED OUT BY UNFAIR COMPETITION FROM OTHER COUNTRIES THAT EFFECTIVELY DIDN'T PAY GST ON THE GOODS THAT WERE SOLD. SO THE U.S. ADMINISTRATION MUST KNOW THAT. THEY MUST KNOW THAT. SO, YOU KNOW, I HAVE TO SAY, I'M PRETTY DISAPPOINTED AT THE QUALITY OF THE ANALYSIS ON THE U.S. SIDE ON THAT. YOU KNOW, IN FACT, WE'VE GOT AMONGST THE LOWEST TARIFFS IN THE WORLD. WELL, LET'S TALK ABOUT DEFENCE THEN ` AUKUS PILLAR 2? OH, DEAD. IT'S GOT TO BE DEAD IN THE WATER. YOU KNOW, I'VE FOR A LONG TIME THOUGHT IT WAS AN UNWISE IDEA. YOU KNOW, THE LAST ADMINISTRATION DESCRIBED IT AS A CHINA CONTAINMENT STRATEGY. YOU KNOW, THERE ARE` WE ARE MOVING FROM A UNIPOLAR WORLD ` WHERE WE HAD ONE SUPERPOWER, THE U.S., AFTER THE DEMISE OF RUSSIA ` TO RISING OTHER SUPERPOWERS. NOW, SUPERPOWERS ALWAYS FLEX THEIR MUSCLES A BIT CLOSE TO HOME. U.S. DOES THAT. THEY'RE DOING IT AT THE VERY MOMENT WITH PANAMA, TRYING TO REDUCE CHINESE INFLUENCE INTO PANAMA. BACK IN THE DAY, THE UK DID IT GO BACK FURTHER ITALY, FRANCE, ETC. BACK IN THE DAY, THE UK DID IT, GO BACK FURTHER ITALY, FRANCE, ETC. SO IT'S NOT SURPRISING THAT CHINA IS FLEXING ITS MUSCLES MORE CLOSE TO HOME. THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT WE'RE COMFORTABLE WITH EVERYTHING THAT THEY DO IN THE PACIFIC, BECAUSE FROM OUR PERSPECTIVE, OR FROM MY PERSPECTIVE, OUR GREATEST DEFENSIVE ATTRIBUTE IS OUR ISOLATION. AND IF THAT ISOLATION IS UNDERMINED BY RISING INFLUENCE OF CHINA INTO THE PACIFIC, THAT UNDERMINES THAT ISOLATION. SO GIVEN THAT THE U.S. IS WITHDRAWING U.S. AID FROM THE PACIFIC ISLANDS, NEW ZEALAND AND AUSTRALIA ARE GOING TO HAVE TO DO MORE IN THAT SPACE, BECAUSE THAT'S ESSENTIALLY THE KEY TO OUR SECURITY. YEAH. TALK TO US ABOUT THAT. YOU THINK, AND YOU ARE PROPOSING, THAT FOR EVERY DOLLAR NEW ZEALAND SPENDS ON DEFENCE AND SECURITY, WE MATCH IT DOLLAR FOR DOLLAR WHEN IT COMES TO AID IN THE PACIFIC. I THINK WE MUST DO. YOU KNOW, IT'S ALWAYS HARD TO INCREASE AID, BECAUSE THERE ARE ALWAYS BUDGET PRESSURES. BUT YOU KNOW, WHAT COULD AID DO? YOU KNOW, WE NEED TO HELP THEM WITH DECENT BANKING SERVICES, WITH DECENT INTERNET SERVICES. WE NEED TO HELP THEM FISH THEIR FISH` YOU KNOW, THE FISHERIES IN THAT AREA ARE THE GREATEST INCOME SOURCE FOR THOSE PACIFIC FISHERIES. THEY'RE MAINLY FISHED BY OVERSEAS COUNTRIES IN THE PACIFIC TERRITORIES, EXCEPT FOR FRANCE, WHO FISHES THEIR OWN. SO CAN WE HELP THEM BUILD A FISHING FLEET IN ORDER TO`? YOU KNOW, WE WOULDN'T GIVE IT TO THEM. WE'D LEASE IT TO THEM. BUT CAN WE HELP THEM BUILD A FISHING FLEET SO THEY MAXIMISE THE VALUE OF THEIR OWN FISHERIES? SO WHY IS THAT IN OUR DEFENCE INTERESTS? BECAUSE OTHERWISE IF, UH... IF OTHER, UH, COUNTRIES BECOME PERVASIVE, WITH PERHAPS A DIFFERENT SET OF VALUES, PUSHING THEIR VALUES IN THE PACIFIC, YOU COULD HAVE DIFFERENT OUTCOMES. YOU KNOW, IT IS POSSIBLE THAT YOU COULD, OVER TIME, HAVE A... A FISHING FLEET THAT COULD, OVER TIME, MORPH INTO SOMETHING THAT'S A PARAMILITARY FISHING FLEET. WE SEE THAT IN PARTS OF THE SOUTH CHINA SEA. I THINK IT'S IN NEW ZEALAND'S INTEREST THAT WE HELP THE PACIFIC SUCCEED. WE WANT THEM TO GROW. WE'VE GOT THIS GREAT PEOPLE-TO-PEOPLE LINKS. YOU KNOW, MORE POLYNESIAN PEOPLE LIVE IN NEW ZEALAND THAN ANY OTHER PART OF THE WORLD OTHER THAN POLYNESIA ITSELF. AND INDEED, IN SOME OF THOSE COUNTRIES, MORE PEOPLE LIVE IN NEW ZEALAND THAN LIVE IN THE ORIGINAL HOME COUNTRIES. SO WE'VE GOT THESE GREAT PEOPLE-TO-PEOPLE LINKS ` AND IT WOULDN'T IT BE GREAT IF WE KEPT THIS AREA DEMILITARISED? MM. DO YOU THINK THERE SHOULD BE A PACIFIC PEACE ZONE? YEAH, I THINK WE NEED A NEW FRAMING THROUGH WHICH TO WORK. IN SOME WAYS, IT'S A PHRASE, YOU KNOW, A PACIFIC PEACE ZONE, THAT THROUGH WHICH WE COULD WORK WITH THE PACIFIC COUNTRIES AND THE SUPERPOWERS TO SEE IF WE CAN REACH AN AGREEMENT. YOU KNOW, NEW ZEALAND'S ROLE IN THE WORLD, I THINK, TRADITIONALLY HAS BEEN TRYING TO NAVIGATE A PEACEFUL PATH BETWEEN SUPERPOWERS. WE'RE OBVIOUSLY NOT NON-ALIGNED. WE ALIGN WITH COUNTRIES THAT SHARE OUR VALUES, MOST IMPORTANTLY AUSTRALIA ` AND OTHER DEMOCRACY LIKE OURS ` MOST IMPORTANTLY AUSTRALIA ` AN OTHER DEMOCRACY LIKE OURS ` BUT ALSO COUNTRIES LIKE JAPAN AND THE UNITED STATES. SO I THINK HELEN CLARK PUT IT VERY WELL RECENTLY WHEN SHE SAID THAT WE NEED TO BE CLEAR-EYED AND HAVE COURTEOUS RELATIONSHIPS WITH BOTH THE U.S. AND CHINA, REACH OUT TO THE PACIFIC RIM, COUNTRIES ` LIKE JAPAN, REACH OUT TO THE PACIFIC RIM COUNTRIES ` LIKE JAPAN, INDONESIA, AUSTRALIA, THE OTHER COUNTRIES THAT SHARE OUR INTERESTS ` AND OUR EUROPEAN ALLIES. WHAT WOULD A PACIFIC PEACE ZONE ACTUALLY MEAN? WHAT WOULD IT LOOK LIKE? WELL, WE WOULD BE TRYING TO STOP THE MILITARISATION OF THE PACIFIC, ESSENTIALLY. SO, BASICALLY, YOU SAY NO MILITARY, OPERATIONS, UNDERTAKINGS, INFRASTRUCTURE IN ANY OF THESE COUNTRIES. YEAH, WE DON'T NEED FOREIGN COUNTRIES HAVING MILITARY BASES IN THE PACIFIC ISLANDS. AND IF WE DID, THAT WOULD THREATEN OUR INTERESTS. SO WE NEED TO AVOID THAT. HOW DO WE AVOID THAT? WE'VE GOT TO, YOU KNOW` DIPLOMACY REQUIRES FOREIGN AFFAIRS EFFORTS TO TRY AND EXPLAIN TO OTHER COUNTRIES WHAT OUR POSITION IS. WE ALSO, I THINK, NEED TO MAINTAIN SOME MILITARY CAPABILITY. YOU KNOW, THE FRIGATES THAT ACTUALLY WERE ORIGINALLY PURCHASED BY A LABOUR GOVERNMENT UNDER DAVID LANGE, THEY'RE NOW WORN OUT. THEY NEED TO BE REPLACED. WHAT ARE WE GOING TO REPLACE THEM WITH? HOW MUCH DO WE SPEND ON THEM? IF YOU GO REALLY HIGH-SPEC, THEY'RE MEGA EXPENSIVE. ON THE OTHER HAND, THEY NEED SOME MILITARY CAPABILITY IN ORDER TO DEAL WITH SOME OF THE BAD ACTORS. YOU MIGHT HAVE SEEN RECENTLY, YOU KNOW, SOME, YOU KNOW, SHIPS THAT WERE CARRYING DRUGS. YOU KNOW, THOSE SORTS OF SHIPS HAVE ARMS ON BOARD AS WELL. YOU'VE GOT TO BE CAREFUL IF YOU'RE GOING TO BOARD THEM. SO YOU NEED SOME MILITARY CAPABILITY, BUT THEY DON'T NEED TO BE PERHAPS THE MOST EXPENSIVE SHIPS IN THE WORLD, AND MAYBE YOU SPEND THE OTHER MONEY ON DRONES. DRONES ` YOU SAY THAT NEW ZEALAND SHOULD PRIORITISE WORKING WITH AUSTRALIA TO DEVELOP MARINE AND AIR DRONES. AND YOU SAY WE SHOULD, QUOTE, 'COMMIT SIGNIFICANT RESOURCES.' TALK US THROUGH THAT. THERE'S AN AUSTRALIAN CALLED SAM ROGGEVEEN WHO WROTE A BOOK CALLED THE ECHIDNA STRATEGY. AN ECHIDNA IS A BIT LIKE A PORCUPINE. IT'S A PRICKLY ANIMAL. AND HE SAID THAT'S HOW AUSTRALIA SHOULD PRESENT ITSELF TO THE WORLD DEFENSIVELY ` IT SHOULD BE A PRICKLY ADVERSARY. UKRAINE, IT'S INCREDIBLE, BUT THEY HAVE KEPT THE RUSSIAN SEA FLEET IN PORT IN THE BLACK SEA THROUGH THE USE OF DRONES ` INCREDIBLE. IT JUST SHOWS YOU HOW THE WORLD HAS CHANGED, THAT THESE MASSIVE SHIPS, THAT HAD THIS ABILITY TO SORT OF PROBABLY POUND ODESA INTO SUBMISSION, HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO LEAVE PORT NOW BECAUSE OF MARINE DRONES AND AIR DRONES ` AND WE'VE ALL SEEN IT ON THE NEWS. NOW, THE NATURE OF WAR IS CHANGING, PERHAPS TO THE ADVANTAGE OF NEW ZEALAND, BECAUSE MULTIPLE SMALL DRONES ARE NOW AFFORDABLE. THEY'RE NOT LIKE THE COST OF A MULTI-BILLION-DOLLAR FRIGATE. THEY'RE, YOU KNOW, THOUSANDS OR TENS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS, NOT BILLIONS. SO WE'VE GOT CAPABILITY IN THAT AREA. WE'VE GOT GREAT CAPABILITY IN` WE'VE GOT SURPRISING DEPTHS OF CAPABILITY IN SPACE STUFF FROM ROCKET LAB AND MARINE JETS FROM, UH, FROM HAMILTONJET. WE ALREADY PRODUCE REALLY SOPHISTICATED DRONES THAT USE ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE AND RECOGNITION TECHNOLOGY TO TRY AND TARGET WILDING PINES, CARRYING SIGNIFICANT PAYLOADS. YES, I THINK WE SHOULD BE WORKING ON THAT. LOOK, AUSTRALIA ` I DON'T KNOW IF YOU'VE EVER SEEN THAT GREAT COMEDY PIECE BY JOHN CLARKE ON THE FRONT FELL OFF. YES. AND HE TALKS ABOUT THE BOATS, SAYING, 'NO CARDBOARD, NO STRING?' HERE WE ARE WITH, YOU KNOW, CARDBOARD DRONES PRODUCED IN AUSTRALIA BEING USED FOR MILITARY EFFECT DEEP INTO RUSSIAN TERRITORY FROM THE UKRAINE. THE WORLD IS CHANGING. YEAH. FINALLY, YOU HAVE BEEN OUTSPOKEN IN YOUR CRITICISM OF SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORMS. A LOT OF THE GLOBAL TURMOIL AND INCREASING SOCIETAL POLARISATION WE'RE SEEING AROUND THE WORLD, YOU PIN ON THOSE PLATFORMS. WHY ARE THEY TO BLAME FOR THE CURRENT TURMOIL IN THE WORLD? WELL, WE'VE MADE A MISTAKE IN THE WEST. WE'VE ALLOWED THOSE PLATFORMS TO BE IRRESPONSIBLE, AND, YOU KNOW, THEIR GREEDY... OWNERS WHO ARE SO SELFISH, ARE RUINING CIVILISATION, IN MY OPINION. THEY'RE RUINING DEMOCRACIES AROUND THE WORLD. I KNOW THAT'S QUITE A STRONG STATEMENT, BUT I BELIEVE IT TO BE TRUE. YOU KNOW, YOU... THE YOUTH SUICIDE RATE, MENTAL HEALTH PROBLEMS WITH YOUNG PEOPLE, PEOPLE GETTING RIPPED OFF ALL OF THEIR SAVINGS FROM... SCAMS AND THE LIKE. ...SCAMS, YOU KNOW, AND THOSE COMPANIES ARE DOING NOTHING TO PREVENT THAT. IN FACT, THEY'RE SELLING ADVERTISING SERVICES TO THE PEOPLE THAT ARE DOING IT, AND, YOU KNOW, THERE ARE DEATH THREATS AGAINST POLITICIANS. I SAW ON THE NEWS THE OTHER DAY THAT THE AUCKLAND MAYOR'S HAD TO HAVE MORE SECURITY BECAUSE OF SOME OF THESE THREATS AGAINST HIM. THIS IS APPALLING. LIES, DEFAMATION, THEFT OF CONTENT, AND AT ITS HEART IS THE FACT THAT THESE COMPANIES ARE PROTECTED FROM ANY LIABILITY FOR THE DANGEROUS PRODUCT THAT THEY SOLD` SELL, AND I THINK THAT UNTIL THE WORLD DEALS WITH SOMETHING LIKE THAT ` OR MAYBE WHAT THE AUSTRALIANS ARE DOING WITH UNDER 16-YEAR-OLDS NOT BEING ABLE TO GET A SOCIAL MEDIA ACCOUNT ` UNTIL THAT, THEY'RE THE LIES THAT WE SEE PERVADING THE WORLD WILL PREVAIL OVER TRUTH, AND WE RISK DEMAGOGUERY AND DICTATORSHIP, BECAUSE DICTATORSHIPS THRIVE ON PROPAGANDA, NOT TRUTH. THERE WILL BE MANY PEOPLE WHO AGREE WITH YOUR CRITICISMS, BUT IS THERE A DANGER FOR A COUNTRY LIKE NEW ZEALAND IN CATCHING THE IRE OF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, IF INDEED YOU DO TRY AND CRACK DOWN ON THE SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORMS? WELL, YOU OBVIOUSLY HAVE TO BE CAREFUL ABOUT IT, BUT I THINK OTHER DEMOCRACIES AROUND THE WORLD ARE REALLY WORRIED ABOUT THIS. I WAS` I MET WITH A PERSON IN THE HOUSE OF LORDS RECENTLY IN THE UK. SHE'S GIVEN OVER HER LIFE TO TRYING TO GET CODES TO PROTECT YOUNG PEOPLE. IT'S NOT GOING TO WORK. AND SHE GETS DEATH THREATS. IT'S ALL MUCKED UP. AND YOU LOOK AT YOUR INDUSTRY ` YOU KNOW, THE MEDIA THAT WE RELIED UPON FOR TRUTH AND FOR BALANCE AND TO TELL US WHO WAS LYING AND WHO WAS TELLING THE TRUTH ` THEY'RE CLEANED OUT BY THESE INTERNET GIANTS WHO CAN STEAL THEIR CONTENT, OWN NONE OF THE DUTIES AND DEFAMATION OR BROADCASTING STANDARDS THAT YOU OWN. IT'S JUST NOT FAIR, AND I THINK THOSE UNFAIR SETTINGS, THEY CAN'T LAST. I THINK, YOU KNOW, THE WILD WEST OF SOCIAL MEDIA HAS TO END. AND I REALLY DO THINK THEY ARE MEGALOMANIACAL TAX-AVOIDING TECH BILLIONAIRES. THEY ARE GREEDY. THEY'RE SELFISH. THEY DON'T NEED ANY MORE MONEY. THEY SHOULD NOT RUIN OUR DEMOCRACIES. DAVID PARKER THERE. AND THERE'S MUCH MORE OF THAT INTERVIEW ON OUR YOUTUBE CHANNEL. JUST GO TO @NZQANDA. AFTER THE BREAK ` THE TREATY PRINCIPLES BILL IS LIKELY TO BE VOTED DOWN IN THE HOUSE THIS WEEK, BUT TOITU TE TIRITI IS FIGHTING ON. OPPONENTS OF THE TREATY PRINCIPLES BILL ARE HOPING THE PROPOSAL IS VOTED DOWN WHEN IT HAS ITS SECOND READING IN PARLIAMENT THIS WEEK. AMONG THEM IS ERU KAPA-KINGI, WHO BECAME THE FACE OF THE PROTEST MOVEMENT TOITU TE TIRITI. A HIKOI IT ORGANISED BROUGHT TENS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE TO PARLIAMENT TO RALLY AGAINST THE BILL. WHAT NOW FOR TOITU TE TIRITI? WE ARE IN A CATCH UP PHASE. CLEANING HOUSE, BUT IS PROBABLY BECAUSE WE DIDN'T REALLY ENVISAGE THE RAPID GROWTH OF THE MOVEMENT SINCE BEFORE, DURING, AND AFTER THE HIKOI. WE ARE GETTING OUR STRATEGIES IN PLACE. WE ARE GETTING OUR PLAN FOR THE NEXT TWO YEARS AS OPPOSED TO THE NEXT 20 YEARS AS A MOVEMENT. THE PLANNING MOVEMENT. ASSUMING THE BILL IS VOTED DOWN IN PARLIAMENT THIS WEEK, WHAT WILL BE YOUR NEXT KAUPAPA? IT WAS NOT OUR DEFINING KAUPAPA EVEN DURING THE HIKOI, WE ARE WALKING TOWARDS A PLACE WHERE OUR GRANDCHILDREN CAN THRIVE, WHERE EVERYBODY CAN THRIVE, NOT JUST MAORI. THAT IS OUR KAUPAPA FOREVER. THE GREAT THING ABOUT THE TREATY PRINCIPLES BILL ISSUE FALLING AWAY IS THAT WE HAVE MORE TIME AND ENERGY TO FOCUS ON OURSELVES AND ON OUR VISION FOR THE FUTURE. HEART OF YOUR POLITICAL ACTIVISM, IS A VISIONARY TOTALLY DIFFERENT NEW ZEALAND. SHOULD ALL NEW ZEALANDERS HAVE THE SAME RIGHTS? YES. DO YOU THINK THAT MANY OF THE THINGS THAT THE ACT PARTY HAS RUN IT AGAINST, WHAT YOU THINK POLICY SETTINGS IN NEW ZEALAND ON OCCASION ALLOW DIFFERENT RIGHTS ON THE BASIS OF ETHNICITY? TO GO BACK TO YOUR QUESTION TO WHETHER OR NEW ZEALANDERS SHOULD HAVE EQUAL RIGHTS, THE DETAIL I WOULD ACT TO THAT IS THAT YOU, JACK, HAVE THE RIGHT TO BE YOU IN A WAY THAT YOU CAN FULLY THRIVE IN YOUR SELF. I HAVE A RIGHT TO BE MYSELF IN MY WEIGHT AND MY CULTURE AND MY LAND ON A WAY THAT I CAN FULLY LIVE MY BEST MAORI LIFE. THE DETAILS OF YOUR WORLD MAY LOOK DIFFERENT TO MY WORLD, BUT WE ARE STILL EXERCISING THE SAME FUNDAMENTAL RIGHT TO BE OURSELVES. THE TREATY AS THE MIDDLE GROUND THAT BRINGS THOSE RIGHTS TOGETHER AND SAYS THAT THESE OUR PEOPLE OF THE LANDSLIDES, THESE ARE THE RIGHTS OF THE PEOPLE WHO LIVE HERE AND EVERYBODY CAN LIVE HERE AND MAKE IT . HOME YOU HAVE DEFINED TO DIFFERENT TYPES OF RIGHTS THERE. THEY COME FROM A DIFFERENT PLACE. THERE ARE ESSENTIALLY DIFFERENT. YOU ARE SAYING IF YOU LOOK AT THE CONCEPT OF RIGHTS IN THE BROADEST TERMS, YOU SEE ALL PEOPLE IN NEW ZEALAND HAVING THE SAME RIGHTS, BUT IF YOU LOOK AT IT IN PRACTICAL TERMS, WHAT YOU ARE ADVOCATING FOR IS ESSENTIALLY A DIFFERENT SET OF RIGHTS DEPENDING ON ETHNICITY. I AM ADVOCATING FOR tangata WHENUA PEOPLE LIVING THEIR BEST LIVES, AND EVERY BODY ELSE WHO LIVES HERE LIVING WEBSITE, AND THAT TO ME IS THE SAME RIGHT. THAT IS THE SAME SINGLE RIGHT. THE DETAILS OF WHAT THOSE RIGHTS MIGHT LIKE ON A DAY-TO-DAY BASIS MIGHT LOOK DIFFERENT. I CANNOT SPEAK TO WHAT YOUR LIFE, YOUR RIGHTS MIGHT LIKE IN PRACTICAL TERMS. I CAN SPEAK TO WHAT MY TIKANGA MIGHT LOOK LIKE. ESSENTIALLY, THIS IS MARAE WHERE EVERYBODY IS INVITED. MIGHT LOOK DIFFERENT, IS THE CRITICAL FROZEN, AT LEAST IN THE ISA PEOPLE THAT THINK THAT TOITU TE TIRITI IS ABOUT A DIFFERENT STANDARD IN CITIZENSHIP. IF MAORI NEVER CEDED SOVEREIGNTY, WHAT DOES IT MEAN IN PRACTICAL TERMS TODAY? THAT IS A DIFFICULT THING TO ANSWER. WE ARE WORKING AGAINST A BACKDROP OF 200 YEARS OF OPPRESSED RIGHTS. WE ARE A STATE OF TRYING TO REMEMBER WHAT EFFECTIVELY OUR RANGATIRATANGA LOOKS LIKE. IT IS DIFFICULT FOR ME TO ANSWER, BUT THANKFULLY, IT IS NOT MY ROLE TO DO THAT ON MY OWN, AND THERE ARE MANY SHARP MAORI MINDSET CONTRIBUTED TO THIS DISCUSSION. THIS IS A PLATFORM TO BRING THOSE MINDS TOGETHER AND TO PROVIDE SOME CLARITY AROUND WHAT YOU HAVE ASKED. YOU HAVE OFTEN REFERENCED THE MATAKIMAI REPORT. BUT HAD SIX DIFFERENT KINDS OF CONSTITUTIONAL FRAMEWORKS ABOUT WHAT AOTEAROA HOU A MIGHT LOOK LIKE. IF YOU THINK ABOUT WHICH ONE MIGHT LOOK BEST? THEY ALL HAVE THEIR BENEFITS. SOMEHOW DRAWBACKS AS WELL. THE FRAMEWORKS ARE LESS IMPORTANT THAN THE PRINCIPLES. SHE SAID THAT THE FRAMEWORKS ARE THERE AS A STARTING POINT, BUT THOSE PRINCIPLES AND HOW WE OPERATIONALISE THOSE FRAMEWORKS AND WHATEVER FRAMEWORKS WORK BEST. JUST TO LAY IT OUT FOR PEOPLE, THAT WAS THREE OF THOSE SIX CONSTITUTIONAL SPHERES HAD SOME FORM OF A THREE-WAY SYSTEM. YOU HAD A RANGATIRATANGA SPHERE, A GOVERNMENT SPHERE, AND A RELATIONAL SPHERE THAT WOULD REDEFINE THE RELATION BETWEEN THOSE TWO THINGS. DO YOU SUPPORT SOMETHING LIKE THAT? I THINK THAT IS THE GREATEST MIDDLEGROUND, WHERE I SUPPOSE THE GREATEST POTENTIAL LIES, WHERE THE GREATEST BENEFIT LIES. YOU SUPPORTED A MARRIED PARTY POLICY CALLING FOR A SEPARATE MARIE PARLIAMENT, HOW WOULD THAT WORK? I'M NOT SURE UNTIL WE TRY IT. THE IDEA ABOUT MAORI BANKS, DIFFERENT MANIFESTATIONS ABOUT SOVEREIGNTY AND THE TRUTH THAT WE NEVER SUITED SOVEREIGNTY, MANY PEOPLE ARE QUICK TO SHOOT THEM DOWN AND THINK IT IS IMPOSSIBLE. THE POINT IS TO HAVE A CONVERSATION AND TO SOCIALISE, AND THEREFORE GROW THE BELIEF IN THE POSSIBILITY OF NOT BEING A THING, BECAUSE I MYSELF BEFORE, WE ARE WORKING AGAINST A BACKDROP OF 200 YEARS OF OPPRESSION. OUR ABILITY TO BELIEVE AND TO SEE A FUTURE DIFFERENT TO THE REALITY WE LIVE IN RIGHT NOW HAS BEEN SEVERELY RESTRICTED. THAT IS WHAT ALL OF THESE EFFORTS OF LIBERATION ARE GEARED TOWARDS, IS BUILDING THE BELIEF FROM THE INSIDE. YOU THINK PEOPLE SHOOT IT DOWN BECAUSE THERE IS NO MEAT ON THE BONES WITH A LOT OF THESE CONCEPTS? THEY ARE VERY BROAD CONCEPTS. ARE DIFFERENT CONSTITUTIONAL SPHERE? PEOPLE ASK WHAT THAT MEANS IN PRACTICAL TERMS. I THINK PRIMARILY IT IS A FAIR RESPONSE. IT IS A FEAR OF THE UNKNOWN. I THINK LACK OF DETAIL MY DAD TO THAT. CAN YOU GIVE US SOME DETAIL? I CANNOT. HOW CAN YOU ADVOCATE IT IF YOU CANNOT PICTURE IT? BECAUSE I KNOW IT IS POSSIBLE. IT IS THE WORLD THAT MY ANCESTORS LIVED IN NOT EVEN 200 YEARS AGO. IT IS NOT A NEW IDEA, IT IS REVERTING BACK TO THE REALITY OF THE WORLD THAT MY ANCESTORS LIVED IN. I KNOW IT IS REAL, HOW IT IS REAL, WE CAN FIGURE OUT, BUT THE POINT IS TO GET ON THE WAKA, GET ON THE MOANA. ONE WE ARE ON THE MAONA, THAT IS WHEN WE WILL LEARN THE MOST. IS THAT THIS WILL GET MAORI SUPERMARKET, MAORI SYSTEM. HOW WOULD THAT WORK? I'M NOT AN EXPERT. WOULD I GET TAXED? THE IDEA THAT I HAVE GENERALLY IS THAT I DIVERSION OF THE TAX THAT MAORI PAY, WHICH IS A LOT,, INTO MAORI SPECIFIC SERVICES WHICH ARE UNIQUE AND GEARED TOWARD MAORI MAIDS. NEEDS. IT IS USING MAORI DOLLARS TO PROMOTE HEALTHY MARIE LIVES. TO PROMOTE HEALTHY MAORI LIVES. THAT ESSENTIALLY CREATES TWO SYSTEMS. HOW WOULD SOMEONE KNOW IF THEY WERE MAORI? DOES DAVID SEYMOUR PAY INTO THIS? IS WHETHER THEY ARE EARLY IN THEIR JOURNEY, OR MAYBE NOT EVEN HAVING STARTED THAT JOURNEY AT ALL, SO THAT IS ANOTHER REALITY THAT WE HAVE TO FACE AND HAVE TO LIVE WITH AND HAVE TO ACCOMMODATE FOR TO ENSURE THAT THIS IS A JOURNEY THAT BRINGS EVERYBODY ALONG. WHAT I KNOW ESSENTIALLY ABOUT TIKANGA MAORI, THAT IS ONE WHERE EVERYBODY CAN THRIVE. IF THERE ARE STEPS THAT GET US TO RANGATIRATANGA, THAT IS IMPORTANT. THE REALITY OF BEING MAORI, YOU CAN'T PICK ONE GAME OR THE OTHER. WHICH TAX SYSTEM DOES DAVID SEYMOUR PAY TO? YOU WOULD HAVE TO ASK DAVID SEYMOUR. SO IT IS UP TO THE INDIVIDUAL. WOULD MAORI BE ABLE TO USE THE ROADS THAT HAVE BEEN PAID FOR UNDER THE TREATY PARTNERSHIP SYSTEM? THIS CONVERSATION IS THE COMEBACK TO THE TRUTH THAT NO PEOPLE IN NEW ZEALAND HAVE PAID A GREATER TAX BILL THAN MAORI. WE LOST 97% OF OUR LAND. WE ARE THROWN INTO CONVERSATIONS ON ACCUSED OF MISUSING TAXPAYER DOLLARS WITHOUT RECOGNISING THAT WE ALREADY PAY TAX, BUT WE PAY TAX TO A SYSTEM THAT NEVER SHOULD HAVE EXISTED IN THE FIRST PLACE, SYSTEM THAT CONTROLS MAORI LIVES. AS ONE OF THE MOST VISIBLE FACES OF THE NEW GENERATION OF MAORI LEADERS, WHAT RESPONSIBILITY DO YOU HAVE TOWARDS PEOPLE WHO DON'T NECESSARILY SHARE YOUR VISION? I THINK WHERE THAT DIVISION MIGHT LIE, WHICH IS A VERY NATURAL PART OF ANY CULTURE, PEOPLE, THERE IS A GENERATIONAL CULTURE INDIFFERENCE OF THINKING. MY ROLE PART OF THE NEW GENERATION IS TO INSPIRE AND INSPIRE THE NEW GENERATION, THE HIKOI WAS A GREAT EXAMPLE OF THAT. WE LEANED INTO THE LIKES OF THE OLDER GENERATION, AND THEY PROVIDED US THEIR WISDOMS, AND WE WERE ABLE TO ACHIEVE SOMETHING THAT HAS NEVER BEEN ACHIEVED BEFORE. THAT IS ONE EXAMPLE OF HOW INTERGENERATIONAL RANGATIRATANGA CAN WORK, WE CAN RINSE AND REPEAT THAT� THROUGH ALL OF OUR ACTIONS AND ACTIVATIONS. I'VE GOT A TRICKY QUESTION HERE, BECAUSE YOUR MOM IS AN MP. SHE HAS BEEN A CRITIC ABOUT PEOPLE DON'T SHARE THAT LIVES IN A PARLIAMENTARY SPACE. AS A MAORI LEADER AND YOU'RE RIGHT, DO YOU THINK IT UPLIFTS IWI MAORI IF SOMEBODY DOESN'T UNDERSTAND THE QUOTE, QUOTE ESSENCE, BEING MAORI? THAT IS A DIFFICULT TENSION THAT I SUPPOSE YOU CAN ONLY UNDERSTAND IF YOU LIVED IN AWAY WHERE YOU WERE, MOST OF YOUR LIFE, PROUD OF BEING MAORI AND THEN YOU COME ACROSS PEOPLE WHO ARE MARRIED BUT DON'T SHARE THAT PRIDE. AND THEN YOU COME ACROSS PEOPLE WHO ARE MAORI BUT DON'T SHARE THAT PRIDE. THIS IS A DIFFICULT DANCE. THAT IS SOMETHING WE ARE GOING TO DO. IS GENERATION GROWS, WE ARE LEARNING TO DO THAT BETTER. TO DO IT IN A WAY THAT IS PRODUCTIVE AND PROGRESSIVE BUT AGAIN, IT IS DIFFICULT. YOU ARE SAYING BRINGING PEOPLE WITH YOU AS OPPOSED TO CONDEMNING THEM AS A MORE EFFECTIVE STRATEGY. AT LEAST TRYING. YOU CAN LEAVE A HORSE TO WATER. SOME PEOPLE DON'T WANT TO BE LED. PEOPLE ARE ON THEIR OWN JOURNEYS, AND MY PRIORITY, OUR PRIORITY IS TOITU TE TIRITI IS TO FUNNEL ALL OF OUR ENERGY INTO PEOPLE WHO ARE WILLING. COUPLE OF GOVERNMENTS QUESTIONS ON TOITU TE TIRITI. YOU WERE PAID PARLIAMENTARY STAFFER, REPAID WHEN ORGANISING TOITU TE TIRITI? NO. IT IS DESCRIBED AS A NOT FOR PROFIT KAUPAPA, BUT IT IS DESCRIBED AS A COMPANY. REGISTERED AS A COMPANY TO PROTECT THE NAME WITHOUT HAVING TO GO DOWN THE TRADEMARK ROUTE. AS OPPOSED TO REGISTERING AS A CHARITY. IT IS REGISTERED AS A COMPANY. THAT'S RIGHT. WE'RE GUESSING ADVICE ON WHETHER WE COULD BE A CHARITY, BECAUSE IF YOU ADVOCATE ON A CERTAIN ISSUE, THE CHARITIES REGISTER MIGHT NOT ALLOW YOU TO BE` DEPENDS ON THE LEVEL OF POLITICAL ADVOCACY. WE HAVE BEEN TOLD BY DIFFERENT LAWYERS. IF WE CAN'T BE REGISTERED AS A CHARITY, THEN WE CAN FORM AS A SOCIAL ENTERPRISE AND HAVE INTENTIONS THAT ARE TRANSPARENT. WILL MONEY FROM TOITU TE TIRITI BE SHARED WITH THE MAORI PARTY. WILL MONEY FROM TOITU TE TIRITI BE SHARED WITH THE MAORI PARTY. NO. YOU WANT TO STAND AS A MAORI PARTY CANDIDATE? NO. I HAVE GOT A ONE YEAR OLD. I DON'T WANT TO STAND. THEY ARE MY FOCUS. THE HIKOI TOLD ME ABOUT WHAT POLITICS, LIKE OUTSIDE OF A WELLINGTON PARADIGMS. I FEEL LIKE I'M IN A RIGHT PLACE AT THE RIGHT TIME. I WANT TO BE HERE FOR TOITU TE TIRITI AND GROW THE MOVEMENT AS A MOVEMENT EVERYBODY CAN GET ON BOARD WITH. I FEEL LIKE I CAN LIVE OUT MY LIFE'S PURPOSE. PERHAPS WE CAN FINISH ON THIS ` HOW DO YOU TRANSLATE THE ENERGY AND THE SUPPORT FROM THE HIKOI AND TOITU TE TIRITI, HARDY TRANSLATE THAT INTO LEGISLATIVE OR CONSTITUTIONAL CHANGE IF YOU DO NOT THINK THAT OPERATING IN WELLINGTON AS AN EFFECTIVE PLACE? IS NOT ABOUT CONSTITUTIONAL OR LEGISLATIVE CHANGE. IT IS ABOUT HOW CHANGE OF MIND CHANGING THE PEOPLE, AND THAT IS WHERE OUR MOVEMENT WILL BE FOCUSING ON FUNDAMENTALLY FOR THE NEXT 20 YEARS, TO ENSURE THAT BY 2040, THESE CONVERSATIONS ARE NOT ONLY REALISTIC, BUT THEY ARE A HAPPENING THING. PEOPLE CHANGE IS OUR GAME, AND THAT IS THE GAME ARE GOING TO BE CHANGING AND PROMOTING, AND I'M REALLY EXCITED TO PROMOTE THAT. THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME. NEXT ` THE GOVERNMENT SAYS REFORMING GENE-EDITING LAWS WILL MAKING FARMING MORE PRODUCTIVE AND ENVIRONMENTALLY FRIENDLY, SO WHY DO MANY FARMERS OPPOSE THE IDEA? FARMING INDUSTRY GROUPS WHO APPEALED FOR MORE TIME TO SUBMIT ON THE GENE TECHNOLOGY BILL HAVE HAD THEIR REQUEST HAS BEEN DECLINED. BUT REPORTER WHENA OWEN WANTED TO UNDERSTAND HOW THE CONTROVERSIAL BILL IS BEING RECEIVED BY THE FARMERS WHO THE GOVERNMENT SAYS IT WILL ASSIST. AN EARLY START OUT INTO THE RURAL BACK BLOCKS. EARLY BECAUSE THE FIRST PERSON WE'RE CALLING ON, DR WILLIAM ROLLESTON, HAS TO CATCH A PLANE TO WELLINGTON TO SUBMIT ON THE GENE TECHNOLOGY BILL. ARE THESE YOUR DOGS? YES. THAT'S BASIL. THAT'S BASIL. (EASY, RUSTIC MUSIC) COME ON IN. THANK YOU. WE WERE KEEN TO SAMPLE VIEWS ON THE BILL WITHIN ONE RURAL REGION, SO CHOSE CANTERBURY. INLAND FROM TIMARU, FORMER FEDERATED FARMERS PRESIDENT WILLIAM ROLLESTON TOOK US BACK TO THE BEGINNING. EVER SINCE WE AS HUMANITY STARTED AGRICULTURE, WE'VE BEEN MANIPULATING THE GENES OF PLANTS AND ANIMALS. I MEAN, WE'VE TURNED OUR GRASS INTO CORN AND WE'VE TURNED WOLVES INTO CHIHUAHUAS. AND THAT WOULDN'T HAVE HAPPENED JUST BY NATURE. IT'S BECAUSE WE AS A HUMAN SPECIES HAVE HAD A HAND IN DIRECTING THAT EVOLUTION. GENETIC MODIFICATION IS NOW JUST ANOTHER STEP IN THAT PROCESS OF BREEDING. IT'S MORE ACCURATE. IT'S MORE PRECISE. (BRIGHT MUSIC) (BRIGHT MUSIC) AND DR ROLLESTON HAS A PRETTY GOOD IDEA OF HOW IT ALL WORKS. HE'S THE CO-FOUNDER OF A BIOTECH COMPANY AND PROMINENT IN NEW ZEALAND'S BIOTECHNOLOGY INDUSTRY. IF I WAS AN ORGANIC FARMER HERE ` THIS IS YOUR LAND OVER THERE? YEAH. THEN... WIND POLLINATION. SO, NOBODY'S PRETENDING THAT SOME POLLEN ISN'T GOING TO GO ACROSS THE FENCE. I MEAN, THAT'S WHAT POLLEN DOES. THE QUESTION IS, DOES IT MOVE ACROSS THE FENCE IN SUCH A WAY OR IN SUCH AN AMOUNT THAT IT'S ACTUALLY GOING TO MEAN THAT AN ORGANIC FARMER OR A NON-GM FARMER IS NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO CLAIM HIS PRODUCT AS BEING WHAT THEY CLAIM IT IS. AND IF YOU LOOK AROUND THE WORLD, THE FIVE BIGGEST ORGANIC COUNTRIES IN THE WORLD ALL USE GM. SO IT SHOWS THAT GENETIC MODIFICATION AND COEXISTENCE DOES ACTUALLY WORK. BUT AS ONE OF THE LAST AGRICULTURAL COUNTRIES HOLDING OUT AGAINST GENETIC ENGINEERING, DOES THAT IN ITSELF HAVE VALUE? WELL, IT'S A BIT LIKE SAYING, 'IS THERE ANY VALUE 'IF WE WERE THE LAST COUNTRY TO ADOPT THE AUTOMOBILE?' SO WE'RE NOW ON THE WAY TO MEET A BUCKWHEAT FARMER. IT'S JUST SOUTH OF TIMARU HERE, AND HE WANTS TO MEET US AT A CROSSROADS. NICK, HEY. WHENA, HOW ARE YOU? ARE WE AT A CROSSROADS, NICK? I THINK WE DEFINITELY ARE. WITH GE, I MEAN. YEAH, YEAH, NO, I THINK MOST DEFINITELY. NICK WALTERS AND PARTNER CATH RECENTLY FEATURED ON A 'COUNTRY CALENDAR'. IT'S A NEW ZEALAND SUCCESS STORY ` THE JAPANESE CAN'T GET ENOUGH OF THEIR CANTERBURY-GROWN BUCKWHEAT. ONE OF THE KEY THINGS THAT THEY WANTED WAS THE TRACEABILITY, TRANSPARENCY THAT NEW ZEALAND OFFERED INTO THE JAPANESE MARKET, AND ESSENTIALLY THE GE-FREE STATUS AS WELL. NICK SAYS HE'S NOT AGAINST GE. HE CAN SEE ON-FARM POSITIVES. BUT ON THE FLIPSIDE, UM, THE INTERNATIONAL TRADE... IT'S PROBABLY TO OUR DETRIMENT. WE'RE SITTING IN A NICE SPOT IN NEW ZEALAND IN TERMS OF... NEW ZEALAND IS A NICHE PRODUCER. WE CAN'T COMPETE WITH THE BIG COMPANIES` OH, BIG COUNTRIES. NEW ZEALAND CAN'T PRODUCE THAT. SO WE'VE GOT TO RELY ON WHAT'S OUR POINT OF DIFFERENCE. (CAPITAL CITIES 'SAFE AND SOUND') NO WORRIES AT ALL. SO, SHOULD I FOLLOW YOU? IF YOU FOLLOW ME, I'VE GOT JUST THE SPOT. OK, RIGHT, I'LL FOLLOW YOU. DUNCAN HUMM FARMS RED DEER IN MID-CANTERBURY. HE'S A FARMING COMMENTATOR, AND RUNS THE HUGELY POPULAR NZ FARMING FACEBOOK PAGE. HE EXPORTS VENISON INTO SCANDINAVIA, THE U.S, CHINA, GERMANY AND JAPAN. JUST AT A FARM LEVEL, OUR BUSINESS REALLY RELIES ON OUR REPUTATION FOR SELLING PREMIUM GMO-FREE PRODUCT. IT'S FROM NEW ZEALAND, IT'S GMO FREE. DUNCAN SAYS HE'S BEEN FOLLOWING THE GE DEBATE FOR YEARS. I'VE BEEN LOOKING FOR POSITIVES AND, UM, THINGS THAT WE COULD USE AS AN ADVANTAGE TO OUR BUSINESS, BUT I'M NOT SEEING ANYTHING. STILL YET TO SEE ANY. AND WHEN YOU QUIZ THE PEOPLE WHO ARE PUSHING FOR IT, THEY CAN'T PROVIDE ANY CERTAINTY. THEY'RE SAYING RYEGRASS. THEY'RE SAYING RYEGRASS WITH METHANE INHIBITORS AND LOWER NITROGEN. UM, YEAH. BUT A LOT OF THEM, THEY CAN'T BET THEIR FARM ON IT. (CURIOUS MUSIC) THE GOVERNMENT OFTEN PROMOTES THE BILL AS A WAY FARMERS CAN REDUCE EMISSIONS THROUGH GENETICALLY EDITED RYEGRASS. FAIRLIE DAIRY FARMER RYAN O'SULLIVAN IS BACKING IT. ANYTHING THAT'S GOING TO ENHANCE THE PERFORMANCE OF THAT RYEGRASS IN TERMS OF PRODUCTIVITY. SO, ANY GIVEN LEVEL OF INPUTS WE GET MORE PRODUCTION, OR REDUCING INPUTS WE CAN GET MORE PRODUCTION. ANY ENHANCEMENT IN THAT PRODUCTIVITY IS GOING TO BE A GAME-CHANGER FOR THE INDUSTRY, BUT ALSO FOR, YOU KNOW, FOR US IN OUR BUSINESS AS DAIRY FARMERS. WHY DO YOU THINK IT'S SUCH A DIVISIVE ISSUE AROUND THE COUNTRY? OH, I JUST THINK IT'S... EVERYONE'S GOT A DIFFERENT PERCEPTION OF WHAT GM IS. AND WHERE YOU'VE GOT UNCERTAINTY AND MISUNDERSTANDING, YOU'VE GOT A REALLY WIDE RANGE OF VIEWS, I GUESS. NOW WE'RE ON OUR WAY TO SEE LIVESTOCK THAT CAN'T BE FENCED IN. SO ` COULD THEY POTENTIALLY SPREAD GM MATERIAL? A FEW BEES AROUND US. YURIY SOSHNIKOV IS MANAGING DIRECTOR OF TRANZALPINE HONEY IN ROLLESTON, A 110-YEAR-OLD SOUTH ISLAND BUSINESS. HE DESCRIBES HIS RESPONSE WHEN THE GENE TECH BILL WAS PROPOSED. HEARTBROKEN. WE DON'T HAVE ANY COMEBACK FROM IT. WE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THERE'S GOING TO BE ONE-WAY TRAFFIC. ALWAYS, FOREVER, IT'S SO RUSHED, AND IT'S DESIGNED TO GO FAST WITHOUT REALLY CLEAR UNDERSTANDING BY NEW ZEALAND PUBLIC. YOU MEAN THE BILL? YEAH, YEAH, YEAH, OF COURSE. IT'S GOING TOO FAST. PEOPLE, MAJORITY OF THE PEOPLE, MAJORITY OF THE CONSUMERS WHO BASICALLY WILL BE STAKEHOLDERS OF THIS PROCESS, THEY HAVE NO UNDERSTANDING, EXACTLY, WHAT GE TECHNOLOGY MEANS, IN AGRICULTURE, IN THEIR FOOD. AS BUSINESS OWNERS, HE AND HIS WIFE, VICTORIA, SPEND THREE MONTHS A YEAR WITH THEIR EXPORT PARTNERS, AND GE-FREE IS THEIR COMPETITIVE ADVANTAGE. BUT YURIY SAYS THERE ARE MORE SERIOUS RISKS FOR NEW ZEALAND AS A COUNTRY DEPENDENT ON BEES TO POLLINATE OUR CROPS. THERE IS NO STUDY AVAILABLE TO ANYONE WHICH WOULD PROVE THAT GENETICALLY ENGINEERED POLLEN OR SUBSTITUTES OF THAT WILL NOT IMPACT LIFECYCLE OF BEES. WE POTENTIALLY HAVE A BIG, BIG, MASSIVE ISSUES. IF THE BILL IS PASSED, YURIY INSISTS OUR COMPETITORS ACROSS OUR NICHE FOOD EXPORTS WILL BE IN. THEY WILL ALSO KNOW ABOUT IT, AND THEY WILL USE IT EVERY POSSIBLE WAY. THAT'S IT. (ROWDY COUNTRY MUSIC) UP ROUND OXFORD NOW. AND WE'RE FOLLOWING ORGANIC SHEEP FARMER CHRIS ENSOR. WE'RE GUESSING HE'S ANTI-GE. BUT AS THE LIGHT QUICKLY FADES, HE CITES A RECENT FEDERATED FARMERS SURVEY AND A FARMING WEEKLY POLL TO SHOW THAT MANY NON-ORGANIC FARMERS ALSO HAVE CONCERNS ABOUT THE BILL. THERE'S A BIG SHIFT WITHIN PEOPLE WHO ARE PROBABLY REALLY CONVENTIONALLY MINDED OR, UM, ARE OPEN TO NEW TECHNOLOGIES, WHO ARE QUITE WARY OF HOW MUCH WE WILL` WE ARE LOOKING TO JUMP INTO THIS. HE'S TAKEN US HERE BECAUSE THIS IS A FLOODPLAIN. WHETHER IT'S FLOOD, WIND, CYCLONE, TRUCK TYRES, HE WANTS THOSE PROMOTING THE BILL TO ACKNOWLEDGE THE TRANSFER OF GENETICALLY MODIFIED MATERIAL WILL BE UNAVOIDABLE. I'M NOT NECESSARILY OPPOSED TO ALL GENETIC MODIFICATION OR ALL GE. IT'S THE RELEASE OF ORGANISMS INTO NEW ZEALAND WITHOUT ANY KNOWLEDGE OF WHETHER THAT'S GOING TO BE A BENEFICIAL THING. KEEP IT IN THE LAB UNTIL WE ARE CERTAIN. SEE YOU, CHRIS. THANKS VERY MUCH. GO AND GET YOURSELF SOME DINNER. (ENGINE REVS) AFTER THE BREAK ` A RADICAL IDEA TO CHANGE OUR JUSTICE SYSTEM. WHY ARE PRISONERS WITH THE SHORTEST SENTENCES THE MOST LIKELY TO REOFFEND? AFTER ALMOST SEVEN YEARS, SIR RON YOUNG IS FINISHING UP AS CHAIR OF THE PAROLE BOARD. AS A FORMER HIGH COURT JUDGE AND CHIEF DISTRICT COURT JUDGE WITH DECADES OF LEGAL EXPERIENCE, HE'S HAD A UNIQUE PERSPECTIVE ON THE NEW ZEALAND JUSTICE SYSTEM. KIA ORA WELCOME. WHAT IS THE PURPOSE OF PAROLE? THE PURPOSE OF PAROLE IS TO ENSURE PEOPLE ARE READY TO GO BACK INTO THE COMMUNITY AND ARE SUPPORTED AND LOOKED AFTER. WHAT MAKES THEM READY? THAT'S THE DIFFICULT THING. WE THINK ABOUT WHY AN OFFENDER DIDN'T OFFEND. THAT THEN INFORMS THE REHABILITATION THAT THEY MIGHT NEED. THEY THEN TEST WHETHER THEY CAN APPLY WHAT THEY HAVE LEARNED. WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT REINTEGRATION, HOW HIGH ON YOUR LIST OF CONCERNS AND PRIORITIES IS PUBLIC SAFETY? THAT'S THE PURPOSE OF THE PAROLE BOARD. WE ARE THERE TO PROTECT THE PUBLIC AND INSURER IS BASED WE ARE ABLE THAT PEOPLE ARE RELEASED WILL NOT REOFFEND. PEOPLE WHO HAVE SERVED LONG SERVICES IN NEW ZEALAND ARE THE LEAST LIKELY TO REOFFEND. IF THE PRIMARY PURPOSE OF THE PAROLE BOARD IS TO PROTECT PEOPLE FROM SERIOUS CRIMES... IT DOES SHOW THAT THE PAROLE SYSTEM WORKS, BECAUSE THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN SENTENCED TO LESS THAN TWO OR THREE YEARS, THE REOFFENDING RATES AND THE RE-IMPRISONMENT RATES ARE ABOUT 40%. WHEREAS THOSE IN LONGER SENTENCES, EIGHT YEARS OR MORE, DOWN TO 10%, BECAUSE I HAVE HAD THAT REHABILITATION, REINTEGRATION, AND TESTING BEFORE THEY ARE RELEASED. DOES THAT MEAN WE SHOULD BE SENTENCING PEOPLE TO LONGER PRISON SENTENCES IN ORDER TO KEEP THE PUBLIC SAFE? WHAT IT SUGGESTS TO ME IS THAT PEOPLE UNDER TWO YEARS WHO WE DO NOT SEE AT ALL IS THAT THERE HAS TO BE A RETHINK ABOUT WHETHER THOSE SENTENCES ARE APPROPRIATE. THEY ARE THE PEOPLE TO COME INTO PRISON AND SPEND TWO YEARS OR SO BEING EDUCATED IN THE WAY OF CRIME. THEY ARE THE PEOPLE WHO REOFFEND AT AN EXTRAORDINARY RATE BECAUSE IT IS KIND OF LIKE A UNIVERSITY OF CRIME. UNLESS WE DO SOMETHING ABOUT THAT, THOSE ARE THE FUTURE OFFENDERS, AND THE PUBLIC SAFETY ISSUE ARISES WITH THAT. WHAT MIKE AN ALTERNATIVE TO SHORT PRISON SENTENCES LOOK LIKE? THERE ARE A LOT OF HALFWAY HOUSE KIND OF ARRANGEMENTS IN SCANDINAVIAN COUNTRIES THAT SEEM TO HAVE WORKED REALLY WELL. I THINK WE SHOULD EXPLORE THAT TO SEE WHETHER RATHER THAN SENDING PEOPLE TO PRISON TO BE EDUCATED IN THE WAYS OF CRIME, THEY SHOULD BE ENTERED INTO THE COMMUNITY BUT UNDER CONTROL. IT IS A HARD SELL TO VICTIMS THOUGH ISN'T IT? SAY UNDER THE NEW SYSTEM WE WILL SEND THEM TO A HALFWAY HOUSE. OF COURSE IT IS. IT IS A SUPERHARD SALE. BUT IT CAN BE SOLD BECAUSE THESE ARTIFACTS. THE WAY TO STOP CRIME IS NOT JUST SENTENCE PEOPLE TO A COUPLE OF YEARS IN PRISON AND HOPING THEY WILL BE OKAY WHEN THEY ARE RELEASED. IT IS LOOKING AT ALTERNATIVE WAYS. ABOUT 31% OF PEOPLE RELEASED ON PAROLE IT WILL REOFFEND WITHIN A TWO-YEAR PERIOD. DOES THAT SUGGEST THAT PAROLE IS GRANTED TOO EASILY? NO, AND THAT'S REOFFENDING RATHER THAN REIMPRISONMENT. A LOT OF PEOPLE WILL REOFFEND IN A RATHER MINOR WAY. IT ALSO IS SPREAD ACROSS ALL OF THOSE PEOPLE THOSE PEOPLE UNDER TWO YEARS RIGHT THROUGH TO LIFE IMPRISONMENT. THAT'S FOR PEOPLE RELEASED ON PAROLE. SO THE PEOPLE SENTENCED TO LESS THAN TWO YEARS WILL NOT SEE THE PAROLE BOARD. BUT THOSE RELATIVELY SHORT SENTENCES ALSO. I THINK THOSE ARE THE PEOPLE AT THAT HINT THAT WE ARE TRYING TO CONCENTRATE ON. YOU HAVE TALKED ABOUT THE IMPORTANCE OF REHABILITATION. THE GOVERNMENT HAS ANNOUNCED A SIGNIFICANT FUNDING BOOST TO EXTEND REHABILITATION SERVICES TO THOSE ON RAMAN. REMAND. BUT IS THE SYSTEM AS IT STANDS SUFFICIENT? I THINK IT IS NOT WELL TARGETED. IT WAS MOSTLY DRUG AND ALCOHOL PROGRAMS, WHICH ARE VALUABLE BUT DO NOT RELATE TO RISK, AND THEREFORE WITHOUT MORE THEY ARE NOT LIKELY TO REDUCE REOFFENDING. I THINK THEY WOULD'VE BEEN BETTER TO USE THAT MONEY DIRECTLY IN RISK-BASED REHABILITATION FOR THOSE ALREADY SENTENCED. CAN YOU EXPLAIN WHAT RISK-BASED REHABILITATION IS? IT IS WHAT I SAID IN THE BEGINNING, FINDING OUT WHY SOMEONE HAS OFFENDED IN THE WAY THAT THEY HAVE AND THAT INFORMS REHABILITATION. A LOT OF WAYS THAT PEOPLE THINK THAT SHOULD OCCUR AS A WAY OF REDUCING CRIME DO NOT WORK AT ALL. DRUG AND ALCOHOL PROGRAMS. HIS CORRECTIONS SUFFICIENTLY RESOURCED? KNOW THEY ARE NOT. THEY HAVE BEEN SIGNIFICANT DELAYS IN TERMS OF REINTEGRATION TESTING WHICH CANNOT OCCUR BECAUSE THERE ARE NOT ENOUGH PRISON OFFICERS. YOU CANNOT TAKE PEOPLE OUT IN THE COMMUNITY TO SEE HOW THEY BEHAVE AND THE LIKE. THEY ARE UNDERFUNDED. IT IS A RARE DAY WHEN WE SEE A POSITIVE STORY ABOUT THE PAROLE BOARD. IN YOUR TIME AS CHAIR YOU PRESIDED OVER 50,000 CASES, MOST WITH WHICH WE NEVER HEAR ABOUT, BUT THERE ARE OCCASIONALLY HIGH PROFILE CASES WHERE A PRISONER IS GRANTED PAROLE ONLY TO REOFFEND IN A VERY SERIOUS WAY. WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THE BOARD GETS IT WRONG? THE BOARD GETS IT WRONG IN THE SENSE THAT SOMEONE WHO IS RELEASED AS WE OFFENDED, WHAT HAPPENS IS THAT I ARRANGE FOR AN INDEPENDENT REPORT BY AN ACADEMIC WHO HAS EXPERIENCE IN CORRECTIONS AND IN PSYCHOLOGICAL SERVICES. I SEE THE VICTIMS OF THE CRIME, AND ONCE THE REPORT IS PREPARED, GO THROUGH IT WITH THEM. THEN WE TAKE WHAT WE CAN FROM THAT REPORT AND TRY TO ADJUST OUR PROGRAM AND OUR PROCESS. HOW DOES IT AFFECT YOU AND OTHER MEMBERS OF THE BOARD? IT IS THE WORST THING ON EARTH TO HAPPEN. IT IS THE LAST THING WE WANT TO HAPPEN. THIS IS A HUMAN SYSTEM WITH HUMAN BEINGS TRYING TO DO THEIR BEST, AND SOMETIMES UNPREDICTABLY REOFFEND VENDORS OFFEND. SOMETIMES THE WORK THAT HAS BEEN DONE BY THE PAROLE BOARD HAS BEEN LESS THAN PERFECT, AND WE ACCEPT AND UNDERSTAND THAT. YOU THINK TRANSPARENCY IS THE KEY TO THAT? YES IF A POTENTIALLY DANGEROUS OFFENDER IS BEING RELEASED FROM PRISON, SHOULD PEOPLE IN THE NEIGHBOURHOOD KNOW ABOUT THAT? IT IS A DIFFICULT BAIT, BECAUSE PARTICULARLY FOR ` AND I KNOW MOST OF THE COMMUNITY WOULD WANT TO KNOW CHILD SEX OFFENDERS, TO KNOW WHERE THEY ARE GOING ` BUT ON THE OTHER HAND WHAT IS CLEAR IS THAT COMMUNITIES HAVE BEEN DRIVEN THESE PEOPLE OUT OF THE COMMUNITY AND THEY HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO SETTLE, AND THEY HAVE RE-OFFENDED. IN OTHER WORDS THERE IS A DOWNSIDE FOR NOTIFICATION, BUT I THINK ON BALANCE NOTIFICATION IS FAIR. CORRECTIONS SHOULD BE RESPONSIBLE FOR NOTIFICATION. THEY SAID ANYONE DETAINED FOR REOFFENDING SHOULD BE DETAINED IN CONDITIONS DISTINCT FROM PUNITIVE PRISON SYSTEMS. I AGREE WITH THAT. PREVENTATIVE DETENTION IS MUCH MORE LOGICALLY PART OF THE PROCESS AFTER SOMEONE HAS SERVED THEIR PUNISHMENTS, BECAUSE WHAT WE ARE TRYING TO DO WITH PREVENTATIVE DETENTION IS KEEP THE COMMUNITY SAFE IN A WAY THAT ALSO ACCEPTS THAT SOMEONE SERVED A SENTENCE AND SHOULD ONLY BE RESTRICTED IF IT IS ABSOLUTELY CLEAR THAT THE COMMUNITY NEEDS THAT FOR THEIR SAFETY. MANY PEOPLE WOULD SAY THAT YOU WOULD BE SENTENCED TO PREVENTATIVE DETENTION IS BECAUSE YOU ARE DANGEROUS AND WOULD REOFFEND IN SERIOUS WAYS, AND THEREFORE DO NOT DESERVE NICE TREATMENT. WELL, IF WE WANT TO BE SAFE, 90% OF THESE PEOPLE ARE GOING TO GET OUT INTO THE COMMUNITY AGAIN, SO WE MUST ALL WORK TOGETHER IN THE MOST EFFECTIVE WAY TO ENSURE THAT COMMUNITIES ARE SAFE. WHAT DO YOU THINK ARE PRIVATE PRISONS? I AM NOT A FAN. NOT ANOTHER PHILOSOPHICAL SENSE BUT IN A PRACTICAL SENSE. I TRIED WORKING WITH CIRCO AND WELCOME SOUTH, NOT VERY SUCCESSFULLY I'M AFRAID. I DO NOT KNOW WHAT THE CAUSES, BUT THE REALITY IS THAT THE CASE MANAGEMENT SYSTEM HAS BEEN PRETTY POOR. THOSE OF THE PEOPLE WHO LOOK AFTER PRISONERS. PSYCHOLOGICAL STANDARDS HAVE BEEN EXTREMELY POOR. WE RELY ON GOOD, RELIABLE PSYCHOLOGICAL REPORTS, AND WHEN THEY LET US DOWN THEN THAT COMPROMISES OUR DECISION-MAKING. A LOT OF PRISONERS HELD THERE ARE SERIOUS OFFENDERS AS WELL. CIRCO HAS ABOUT 18% OF SENTENCED PRISONERS IN NEW ZEALAND. IT IS MASSIVE. IT HAS A HUGE EFFECT. WHEN YOU SAY THAT CIRCO HAS NOT LIVED UP TO YOUR STANDARDS IN THE FACILITY, DOES THEIR CRITICISM OF PRIVATE PRISONS EXTEND BEYOND THAT AS A BORDER PHILOSOPHY? NO, I AM NOT PHILOSOPHICALLY OPPOSED, ALTHOUGH I THINK THERE IS AN ARGUMENT THAT IF THE STATE IMPRISONS SOMEONE THAT THE STATE SHOULD LOOK AFTER THEM. FOR EXAMPLE IN MOUNT EDEN, WHERE ORIGINALLY CIRCO WERE LOOKING AFTER THE PRISON, THAT HAS CHANGED AND CORRECTIONS DO ` I DO NOT THINK THAT'S BEEN A SEASON FULL PROGRAM. IN 2016 YOU EXPRESSED CONCERNS OVER THE APPLICATION OF VICTIM IMPACT STATEMENTS. WE HEARD ABOUT A VICTIM CENTREED ADJUSTMENT SYSTEM. CLEARLY THERE IS BEEN A SIGNIFICANT CHANGE OVER YOUR TIME IN THE LEGAL SYSTEM WHEN IT COMES OVER REPRESENTATION OF VICTIMS. WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THOSE STATEMENTS NOW? I JUST HAVE NOT HAD MUCH TO DO WITH VICTIM IMPACT STATEMENT SINCE I RETIRED, BUT WE HAVE DONE A LARGE AMOUNT ON THE BOARD TO IMPROVE VICTIM IMPACT. WE HAVE USUALLY INCREASED THE NUMBER OF VICTIMS THAT THE BOARD SEES. PAROLE BOARD MAKERS ARE GIVEN TRAINING. I HAVE TRIED TO MAKE WHAT THEY CAN OFFER AND WHAT THEY SHOULD SAY TO THE BOARD EASIER, IF YOU LIKE. ALTHOUGH VICTIMS CANNOT APPEAL CAN THEY? AN OFFENDER CAN APPEAL THAT DECISION BUT A VICTIM CANNOT? IT IS NOT AN APPEAL SYSTEM, THAT IT IS A REVIEW SYSTEM. VICTIMS CANNOT, BECAUSE THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM IS DESIGNED TO CONVICT THE GUILTY, ACQUITS THE INNOCENT, AND PUNISH THE GUILTY. VICTIMS DO HAVE A PART IN SOME OF THAT, BUT THEY ARE NOT ESSENTIAL IN THAT SENSE, BUT THEY ARE ESSENTIAL IN A NUMBER OF THE WAYS IN WHICH THE SYSTEM WORKS. SHOULD THEY HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO ASK FOR A DECISION BY THE PAROLE BOARD TO BE REVIEWED? I DON'T THINK THEY SHOULD BE, BUT I THINK CORRECTIONS SHOULD BE ABLE TO. I THINK IF THERE ARE COMPELLING REASONS FOR WHY WE HAVE GOT IT WRONG, BOTH SIDES SHOULD BE ABLE TO TEST THE CORRECTNESS OF OUR DECISIONS. THE DEBATE OVER LAW AND ORDER IN NEW ZEALAND? RESEARCH. TOO MUCH IS BASED ON APPEALING TO THE PUBLIC'S SOMETIMES WORST INSTINCTS. I COULD USE THE EXAMPLE OF THE THREE STRIKES LEGISLATION, BECAUSE I THINK IT IS A GOOD EXAMPLE, AND BECAUSE I THINK WE HAVE A LOT OF EXPERIENCE WITH THAT. WE HAVE SEEN A NUMBER OF PEOPLE ON THE SECOND STRIKE, THOSE PEOPLE DO NOT GET REHABILITATION, THEY ARE NOT INTERESTED. THEY DO NOT SEE THE VALUE IN IT AND WE CANNOT FORCE THEM OF COURSE. REHABILITATION HAS GOT TO BE VOLUNTARY. THEY LEAVE AT THE END OF THEIR SENTENCE NOT HELPED, NOT PROGRESSED, BACK INTO THE COMMUNITY AT HIGH RISK. HOW IS THAT MAKING THE COMMUNITY SAFER? IT IS AN ILLUSION THAT LONGER PUNISHMENT MAKES PEOPLE SAFER. IT IS NOT BASED ON ANY ASSESSMENT, RESEARCH, BUT A CATCHPHRASE. THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR YOUR TIME AND CONGRATULATIONS ON YOUR TIME IN THE ROLE.