- Kotia te putake waiho i konei, kotia te kauru waiho i konei. Tera ia ko ta umutuhi kihai i tae ki nga pukenga, ki nga wananga. Ki nga tauira mai e. Ko Te Hui tenei, e tu nei, e tau nei. Haramai te tokio, haumi e, hui e, taiki e. This week on the Hui ` we're talking politics with our panel of experts. Everything from the Treaty Principles Bill ` - This bill supports all people to cherish their taonga. We just don't need to divide the country in a partnership between races to do it. - You're a disgrace to this House. And when it comes to the Treaty of Waitangi, you will and always be a liar. - ...to the war on woke. Captions by Maia Carr Heke. Captions were made with the support of NZ On Air. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2025 - Nga mate e tangihia mai ra i runga i nga marae maha o te motu. Haramai, haere. Tatou nga kanohi mapurapura o ratou ma. Tihewa Mauriora, and welcome back to the Hui. The United States and China are now locked in a trade war, with both countries rocketing up the rhetoric and the amount charged for incoming goods. Globally, the stock markets have been extremely volatile in the face of continued uncertainty. But what will all this chaos mean for household budgets, kai, consumer goods, petrol prices and for whanau Maori? So, joining us now to discuss this and much more are our political panel of experts. Professor at AUT University Business School, Professor Ella Henry. Tena koe, hoki mai. Also joining us, the professor at the School of Economics and Business at Massey University, Professor Matt Roskruge. Tena koe, te ahorangi. And joining us now for the first time on the Hui, director at Action Station Aotearoa, Kassie Hartendorp. Tena koe nau mai. E aku rangatira, tena koutou katoa. OK, so much to discuss. Let's get into it. Um, Matt Roskruge. The Africans have a whakatauki ` 'When two elephants fight, the grass gets trampled.' Are we going to get trampled because of what's happening at the moment? - Yeah. Look, I mean, we live in interesting times. We haven't had a trade war like this in a very long time. Certainly not with modern trading, digital trading and everything happening as quickly and responsively as we do now. Nobody knows what's going to happen. And that's before you add in some of the wild card players that are involved, who are incredibly difficult to predict. Um, look, what I really worry about ` it's gonna have a big impact on global trade, the way that products and money moves around global systems. But you also tend to get um, uh, political and, um, tensions follow trade tensions. And what I worry about there is that we may be leading into a period of, um, uh, a less peaceful period. - What does that mean? Are you talking` What do you mean by that? - Right. So, I mean, when people are trading, they're relying on each other. They're talking to each other. Their economies become connected. If you start to decouple those economies, you start to decouple those people. You` It becomes easier to build tensions. There's less communication. There's less cost of` of blowing the relationship apart. And so, what I mean, when you saw some of the embargo` the naval operations that were going on around Taiwan, uh, you've seen some of the pivot to the Pacific from the US. You know, in the` in the context of a trade war, uh, that's the big worry for me, is that it escalates beyond there. - What's the impacts on the Maori economy, Ella Henry? - My view is that at the end of the day, should there ever be an increase in actual warfare moving forward, at least Aotearoa has relative self-sufficiency compared to so many other countries. And at least whanau Maori that have access to whenua and moana have a greater level of capability outside of the kind of frenzied capitalist market. So I choose to be an optimist in terms of our isolation and our capacity to take care of ourselves, and the fundamental kindness of New Zealanders, which we haven't seen as much of in media, but is actually still there. The fundamental kindness of us in tough times. - Do you think, though, that we have a community Maori whanau who are doing it really tough at the moment? The old adage was that when America sneezed, we got a cold. It feels like America's got the cold now, aren't we close to getting pneumonia? - Um, I think America might have unvaccinated COVID at the moment. - (CHUCKLES) - Um, and the reality is, the most disadvantaged in any community are the least likely to see any benefits from any kinds of economic change. But, again, our communities are very good at wrapping ourselves around each other. There are some of our people who are just lost right now. And that's why we have organisations like yours. That's why we do what we do, is` is how do we help each other and support each other? - And that's what I was gonna say, Kassie. Doesn't this just make it worse for whanau Maori, do you think? - Absolutely. The things that worry me are actually twofold. So, the first is we currently have a situation where the biggest bully in the world has the most power and the most money to be able to do essentially whatever he wants and to upturn the entire global economy at the drop of a hat. And I think that's concerning. I don't think any one person should have that much power in a global stage. The second thing is, is that what we're not talking about is that, what I've read at least, is that the night before the tariffs were paused, there was $305 billion going towards some of the wealthiest people within the USA, because Donald Trump was telling people to start buying up shares because he knew he was gonna change his mind. So we've just had this extortionate amount of wealth transferred from working people in the US's kiwisavers into the richest people's hands. - Do you` So, this is finely-tuned calculation by someone that most people think is a bit of a porangi telling a wairangi how to be haurangi. That's the assumption that people have about the political leadership of Donald Trump. But what you're talking about is finely-tuned economic, calculated political decisions by the president of the United States. - Absolutely. - What, then, does the impact of that all have, from your own experience, and what you've seen in terms of whanau Maori, particularly vulnerable whanau, who are doing it tough already? - Well, I think that Maori are really ` I hate the word, but resilient. You know, we're creative, resilient. We keep going. We've never had enough, thanks to the situation we've inherited. And so I think, Maori, for the most part, will find ways to get ahead. Um, but obviously it's not good enough that people can't afford their groceries. When we look at the supermarkets, for example, it really is` I think the best word is extortionate. You know? What we're paying just for food, for rates, for everything at the moment is going up and I just can't see it just happening to go down. - Mm. Nicola Willis, Matt, has talked about trying to break the duopoly of the supermarkets in Aotearoa New Zealand. Willie Jackson actually made a something` it was an interesting comment he made over the weekend that the Labour government should have done more when it was in government, not only in terms of its policy of taking GST off fruit and veg, but also of meat. If they'd done that, would we be in a much better position now, do you think? - I don't know about much better, but it would certainly be easier. Maori households are spending something like 25% of their budget, higher than Pakeha households, on food, and helping people to make fresh kai choices instead of having to pick the cheap, processed stuff. It's gonna to be good for us and good for our health in the long run. Uh, they can, um, break up that duopoly. It takes a level of political will and probably a level of ignoring certain lobbyists and other, um, other things that may be influencing decisions. - Yeah. - And, um, you know, it's easy to say 'Oh, we should have done...' but what are they going to do when they're back in there? And are they gonna follow through on these? - So this comes down, Ella Henry, to political leadership. Do we have the political leadership to guide us through these kind of adverse conditions that we're experiencing at the moment? I mean, Christopher Luxon talked ad infinitum about a laser focus on the cost of living. - I mean, I think that the polls are showing us that even though they're still reasonably in front, that there's a downward trending in their popularity, which means that we have a political vacuum for who can move into that space. If New Zealanders become disillusioned enough, particularly Maori, with the current government, which I think is happening, what it means is that we have to call to those parties that are not part of the current coalition and say 'Right, pull up your socks, 'figure out who you are and where you are, and come back to us with strategies.' Not pollywaffling, not kind words and gestures, but actual strategies with how we deal with poverty and disenfranchisement. - Kassie, I can see you nodding your head there. - Yeah, I agree. I think that we're in a world right now where wealth and power is so concentrated that that's where the gravity goes ` towards that. So you have to take really, really strong, decisive action if you're going to reverse it, to be able to share it around the people who currently don't have that. - Do we have the political leadership to be able to do that? - No, not right now. - I think there's some nascent, um, potential leaders emerging across multiple parties. And I think the job of us, you know, I genuinely believe that notion that rangatira, the people who weave the people together have the power to do that because the people give it to them. So we, as empowered tino rangatiratanga Maori people have an obligation to make the strongest leaders we can. - Talking about tino rangatiratanga and mana and leadership, we're gonna be talking about Treaty Principles straight after the break. E haere ana e te iwi. He korero e pa ana ki nga matapono o Te Tiriti. That and more with our tapui tamaka torangapu ` after this. - Hoki mai ano e nga iwi, ko te Hui tenei. So many submissions, such a resounding vote on the floor of Parliament and an outpouring across the country in the build up on a Treaty Principles Bill brought forth by a political party with 8.64% support in the election in 2023. This was, of course, the Treaty Principles Bill. - Ah, ka mate, ka mate! Ka ora, ka ora! - ALL JOIN: Ka mate, ka mate! Ka ora, ka ora! (PERFORMS HAKA) - I'm here for my culture, to be proud. Proud to be Maori. - Man, it's amazing to follow within the footsteps of our tupuna who have fought for so long. So, the protection of Te Tiriti. - All we gotta do is get to the other end. - This was really important for us to be part of the conversation. - This bill hasn't been stopped. This bill has been absolutely annihilated. - The ayes are 11. The nos are 112. The motion is lost. (CHEERING, APPLAUSE) - There we have it ` 11 to 112. I think that's a victory. But anyway, (CHUCKLES) it's pretty resounding no matter which side of the political divide you're on, Kassie. When you heard the response and the vote, what was your reaction? - Just blown away. You know, I remember saying at a hui, I had to break it to people that we were gonna need to get at least 200,000 submissions to be able to win this thing, and even saying it out loud felt impossible. And so to break that, to break that record, feels incredible. And Aotearoa truly showed up. You know, it was a reflection of the tireless mahi that Maori have done over decades to be able to keep the fires alive. And non-Maori joined us as well. So it really is a resounding win for honouring Te Tiriti o Waitangi. - So you say resounding win. I've heard thoughts and comments from people saying kua mate. Te piri ` the concern that some people have, though, is that it hasn't actually kua mate. David Seymour is still saying that he wants to keep going with this, ultimately pushing towards a referendum. When you hear that, what do you think? - I think that it's very unlikely that this bill is gonna have another life, because it's become so unpopular and so frustrating, I think, to National Party. Uh, I think that David Seymour is being a bit of a sore loser, and he needs to take the loss and realise that, you know, 270,000 people alone submitted, over 300,000 people put through a petition signature. The reality is is that the country wants to move forward and honour Te Tiriti o Waitangi. He can say what he likes. It's not gonna stop that. - OK, so if David Seymour says it's not over. I think his exact words were, quote, 'Watch this space,' What do you make of that? - My greatest concern about the bill is that it focussed so much and enraged so much of us that we weren't actually paying attention to the other pieces of legislation that were being slipped through that were just as odious in terms Te Tiriti. - We will talk about those. We will talk about that. - So, but one of the by-products of that, as you said, is it didn't just enrage us, it engaged us, in a way that we have not been for 50 years, and we need that kind of fervour and passion right now because the issues are not just local, they're not just to do with this current coalition. They are global. And the fact that so many hundreds of thousands of warm, wonderful, hot blooded New Zealanders walked and talked and laughed together means that we have that capability. - OK. Can I ask a question, then, about` And this is, I think, going to be the next play` is about a referendum. You need a few hundred thousand for that. A few hundred thousand made their submissions against this bill. Could we see a referendum on treaty principles in some way, shape or form, do you think, driven by the citizens of Aotearoa New Zealand? - In principle, in theory, it, it` I mean, I think` Don't you have to have 100,000 on a, you know? - Yeah. - So, theoretically, it's possible. Um, but I do think that from about the middle of this year, they're gonna have to be going into election mode. You know, you have a 12 month cycle on that. And do they really want to be going to the electorate with something that is so divisive, has caused so much acrimony and so much antipathy? I think that that would be political suicide. - Yeah. - May` - I` - Sorry. Can I just add to that, that you do have to get 10% of the voting population to be able to sign a petition for a citizen-initiated referendum? It's a highly, you know, bureaucratic process. The government also has to be able to sign it off. So I think there's lots of hoops and barriers that, just` we blew out of the water through the Treaty Principles bill. - Yeah. There was also a bit of a lack of political leadership in this thing, right? I mean, many people threw some barbs at the Prime Minister for allowing this to get to where it got to. Comments about the fact that actually he didn't need to sign this deal, the coalition deal with this as a part of their coalition deal. - Yeah. I mean, it feeds really well into the likes of, um, uh, God, David Seymour's party ` ACT. I almost forgot the name. That's how relevant` but it feeds very much into their voter base. And I think we need to` I mean, he's managed to, by having this in the discourse, activate a whole lot of disenfranchised people. It may increase his vote. And so in some ways, even if it's not good for the entire right, for the ACT Party, it may well be important for them to keep it in the discourse and to be seen as the... champions of the alt right, or the anti-woke or the far right, whatever you like, you know, to build their voter base and they don't necessarily mind, I think, if National's vote goes down, as long as this comes up. - Yep. You mentioned the word woke, and this seems to be a particular focus for New Zealand First. This, quote, 'war on woke.' When I talked to Winston about it a couple of years ago, he couldn't even define what woke was, to be honest with you, and in fact, the way that he defined it, I kind of said to him, 'That sounds like you, actually.' But anyway, the war on woke is what they've gone for here. I mean, what do we make of this? Is this New Zealand First trying to create a space for its own self to ensure that it gets to 5% at the next election? Or, what is this actually about? - Absolutely and unequivocally. I mean, let's rark up the juices of this relatively small pool of people who voted for New Zealand First at the last election, just over the line. - Yeah. - Um, you know, and they tend to be very elderly. So he's going to have to find some new fresh blood from somewhere. And, you know, obviously if he, like Seymour, can rark people up enough, then who knows? It could, you know, it could mean an incremental leap up by half a percent. But the reality is, most of us who understand the word 'woke' are very happy to be wide awake. - (LAUGHS) Well, even things like, I mean, you talked about some things that maybe we took our eye off the ball on, you know, regulatory standards. But even, uh, things like DEI ` diversity, equity and inclusion and things like that, you know, people are happy to get rarked up at places like Destiny Church. The politicians are still pushing on this, though, Kassie. It's still part of their political agenda. - Well, the reality is is that a lot of the tactics that the right wing are using at the moment is this idea of flooding the zone, right? So on every single policy, in every single area, you will see these really reactive, regressive policies. And in some ways, you have to pick your battles. You have to decide ` where are you gonna go in? We're not gonna win them all. We will make some losses until they're no longer here. And to decide which are the ones that can actually galvanise people and speak to people's hearts enough to be able to show this force of power that is real? And I want to also speak to something else. The thing about giving David Seymour too much air time, right, is it diminishes the real, beautiful, irresistible power that Maori and non-Maori alike shared in that moment of the hikoi. And I think if we give too much of your time to that, at times, and we allow that, even amongst ourselves, we diminish that power when it was real and we all felt it. - What about things like the RSB though, Regulatory Standards Bill and things of that nature? Do you think that because of the overwhelming number of submissions as a part of the Treaty Principles Bill, that that has actually created a new pathway, that people have seen that process, they know how to submit now, it's much easier to follow on from that now, do you think? - Yes, absolutely. I see engagement or power as, like, a muscle. You flex it, you strengthen it, you learn how to use it and you never forget it. And so for me, the Treaty Principles Bill pathway, I guess, the campaign, was to be able to strengthen that muscle so that we can be stronger for all of these other battles that are still on our doorstep. - Matt, can I ask a much wider political question here? I think, uh, Professor Henry talked about the polls. We saw one change, I guess, in the tone and the trends from TVNZ's poll last week. But generally speaking, before that, we were seeing a drop in support for the right side of politics' parties, particularly the government party National. We saw a reversal in TVNZ. What do you make of the current trajectory at the moment? - Yeah, I mean, look, I still think people vote a lot in their pocket, and the economy's not doing well. They're not hearing a lot of talk from the government about how they're going to support the economy, How they're going to, um, to help us weather the storm of the tariff wars and everything else. And so I do think people are feeling poorer. People are looking at job losses. They're looking at Wellington being devastated and they're trying to think of a political alternative. I worry that our left-wing parties, um, we don't really have a party that's championing working class politics. Um, you know, Labour still has that neoliberal leaning. It's still a little bit worried about losing its, um, centre voter. And there is, I think, space for a working class party to come up in the` on the left and pick up on, uh, left-wing economic issues. - Is that a problem for Labour? I mean, is Labour being strong enough, fast enough, provocative enough, proactive enough, Ella Henry? - I think Labour has managed to win two terms in government by moving closer to the centre than to the left, and it's only really been in the last election that we have punished them for that, because, you know ` I grew up in a red household from the 30s. My parents just fell in love with the idea of a party for the poor. And when my mother said in 1987, 'Those bastards have betrayed us,' she was speaking from her heart. And you know, I'm sorry for those people who find that profanity unsavoury, but that was my mother speaking, and she felt betrayed. And so I am still waiting to see how far Labour will come back to its roots. - I found it a very academic dissertation, actually. And thank you for the honesty. That is our political panel. We have more after this break, so stay with us. He tapui tamaka torangapu kua tau mai. Tukuna te korero kia rere, a taro kau iho nei. - Nau mai ano i nga iwi ko Te Hui tenei, wetewete nga i nga kaupapa torangapu o te wa. We have Professor Ella Henry, Professor Matt Roskruge, and director of Action Station Aotearoa, Kassie Hartendorp with us as well. Akoranga te ra nga mihi nui ki a koutou. Uh... Waitangi Tribunal. 50th anniversary this year. There is supposedly a review that is going to happen. There was a review that was undertaken by Matanuku Mahuika and Dr Season-Mary Downs, who said, basically, that the tribunal has been underfunded, that they need more members on the tribunal to be able to deal with not only the historical claims, but many complex contemporary claims that are coming up as well. It seems like the government is no great fan of the tribunal. Well, certainly some parties in that government coalition. What happens next, do you think, ahorangi? - I mean, if we look at the history of it, you know, Matiu Rata was very much the tuakana of the tribunal. And then when National came in in 1975, they took away its power. And I think we can pretty much say they've been trying to do that ever since. I mean, it's only really had the power to be retrospective since 1985, and the doors have opened on 40 years of unleashing the truth of our history that had been expunged for 100 years. So, I can see why some on the right are nervous about that. That amount of honesty and candour, and why they want to shut it down. Because the most important outcome, and I say this as a treaty negotiator, of a treaty claim is the historical account. - Yeah. - The truth of it, yeah. - It's like that Truth and Reconciliation Commission, you know, in South Africa and that kind of thing. That's an important process. What the politicians will say, though, is you are limiting the democracy. The people voted. We get to make the policy. Kassie, do you see that` do you see the tribunal is trying to usurp the power of the duly elected governments of the day? Or is it, as Ella Henry says, upholding that necessary Truth and Reconciliation Commission approach? - Oh, I think this government and right-wing governments are absolutely weaponising the idea of democracy to work for their own good. And so I think we know that it's a deliberate attack on the judiciary, on tribunals, to be able to say, these are activists, they're too radical, whatever it is, when they're literally just doing their job that was agreed to 50 years ago. So I think we have to be very clear-sighted about when these things are coming under attack and to not take a bar of it. - OK. I want to raise one more issue, actually ` we're fastly running out of time ` and it's to do with infrastructure. We saw an announcement, I think, over the last few days from Waikato Tainui about an investment opportunity that it has secured with Brookfields ` about $1 billion. Matt, is this where iwi business needs to go now, as a result, actually, of the infrastructure symposium held earlier this year? - Yeah, look, that development is five minutes down the road for me. And in terms of opening up the Golden Triangle in terms of development for Kirikiriroa, it's fantastic. It's fantastic for Tainui, I think, and our infrastructure in Aotearoa is in a terrible way. Um, and having any sort of investment into improving that, getting some of the shipping out of Auckland, for example, um, opening up the Port of Tauranga further is going to be advantageous for economic growth. So from that sense, absolutely. I think that it's a great opportunity. Um, in terms of ` is that where Maori need to start looking for investment? Look, it's been incredibly` it's incredibly hard in New Zealand to raise funds anyway. Um, and it's even harder if you're Maori. And I think we need to start to look at some of these international funding agencies, um, each one will have its own ethical and moral standing and position, and we need to carefully consider that. But I do think that attracting foreign investment for Maori is a very, very good, um, way of developing our whenua. - Pitfalls though, Kassie? - Look, I mean, it's too early to say around iwi making decisions around these investments, but I will say that the whole summit, right, was organised by the government, is essentially trying to work their way into selling off state assets and privatising many of our public services and infrastructure. And that, to me, is a concern because I think on the surface, it looks like this big shiny promo for investment. And underneath, it's really about basically privatising our assets and the things that look after us. And so I would say, let's just take these things with a bit of a grain of salt when it comes to the government, because we know about privatisation is that we pay more for worse services and other people get rich from it. - And the removal of clauses like treaty principles clauses and the Aria May, which the minister said he kind of didn't really know about, and then said he didn't` he misunderstood the question. I mean, the politics of this is interesting. Are we ever going to see those kind of clauses? We talk about kaitiakitanga all the time in communities, you know? - I see this as part of a global movement by the right against indigenous people, because we are the last moral bastion in terms of being protectors of our mother, the Earth. Whether you're talking about South America, Asia, or the whole of the Americas, indigenous people are the clear impediment to the complete destruction of this planet. So getting rid of our voice, whatever way they can, is very much the agenda of the right. And you know what? We're not going. We're not. We've survived a lot worse. - So when iwi look at these opportunities that come from international investors, what do you make of it? Is it a good thing or a bad thing? - I'm very fortunate because I've had to work over the years with a number of Maori, who I think are incredibly strategic iwi leaders, who are wrestling all the time with balancing collective need against private wealth. And we've got some wonderful leaders in our tribal communities. And I choose to believe that if we stand behind the ones who are great, we make them better and we make them stronger, and that makes our communities better and stronger. - Professor Ella Henry, Professor Matt Roskruge, director of Action Station Aotearoa Kassie. Tena koutou katoa. Thank you very much. He ako rangatira, tena koutou i whau waihi mai ki Te Hui. Kia ora mai ra. That was our panel, our political panel of experts this week on the Hui. Hei te wiki e tu mai nei e hoa ma, coming up next week on The Hui ` A Te Reo Maori special celebrating the language at home... - He inu wai mau? - Ae. - Ae, inu wai? - He reira ke tetahi kapu. - ...in the community... - It had been such an uphill journey to where we've been and to where we are now. And it's not just for the kids at school, it's what you can see in the whole community. - ...and across the country. This is a positive demonstration, a positive celebration of what Te Reo means to most New Zealanders who are proud to call Aotearoa home. - No reira, hei tera wiki te kaupapa o Te Hui ara ake ano i te wa o te aranga. I te iwi kia mau, ki te turanga, o Taputaputea. Haumi e, hui e, taiki e. Captions by Maia Carr Heke. Captions were made with the support of NZ On Air. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2025