CAPTIONS BY TOM CLARKE AND LENA ERAKOVICH. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ COPYRIGHT ABLE 2025 TENA KOUTOU. NAU MAI, HAERE MAI. WELCOME TO Q+A. I'M JACK TAME. TODAY ` SLOW, INEFFICIENT AND TOO RISK-ADVERSE ` SIR BRIAN ROCHE WITH HIS CRITIQUE OF NEW ZEALAND'S PUBLIC SERVICE AND HIS VISION FOR CHANGE. AND I'M IN GLORIOUS SOUTH CANTERBURY TO ASK THE GOVERNMENT'S NEWEST MINISTER, JAMES MEAGER, WHAT'S THE POINT OF HAVING A MINISTER FOR THE SOUTH ISLAND? BUT FIRST, THIS MORNING, THOUGH ` ANTHONY ALBANESE HAS BEEN RE-ELECTED AS AUSTRALIA'S PRIME MINISTER IN A HUGE VICTORY FOR HIS RULING LABOR PARTY OVER THE OPPOSITION COALITION. THE FEDERAL ELECTION RESULTS ECHOED THOSE IN CANADA EARLIER THIS WEEK, WITH AN INCUMBENT CENTRE-LEFT GOVERNMENT STORMING BACK FROM WEAK POLLING TO WIN IN COMPREHENSIVE FASHION. CROWD CHANT: ALBO, ALBO, ALBO, ALBO, ALBO! INCUMBENCY CURSE? WHAT INCUMBENCY CURSE? (RAUCOUS CHEERING, APPLAUSE) ON A DRAMATIC NIGHT, ANTHONY ALBANESE BECAME THE FIRST AUSTRALIAN PRIME MINISTER TO WIN CONSECUTIVE ELECTIONS IN MORE THAN 20 YEARS. A MAJORITY LABOUR GOVERNMENT PROMISED AND DELIVERED. (CHEERING, APPLAUSE) WHILE THE FINAL RESULTS WILL TAKE DAYS TO CONFIRM, IT'S CLEAR AUSTRALIA'S LABOUR PARTY HAS INCREASED ITS MAJORITY, MARKING A HUGE TURNAROUND FROM POLLING A FEW MONTHS AGO WHICH HAD SUPPORT FOR THE GOVERNMENT AT A LOW. WELL, TONIGHT IS NOT THE NIGHT THAT WE WANTED FOR THE LIBERAL PARTY OR FOR OUR COALITION OR INDEED FOR OUR COUNTRY. LIBERAL PARTY LEADER PETER DUTTON NOT ONLY FACED A LOSS OF THE OVERALL ELECTION, BUT THE IGNOMINY OF LOSING HIS OWN SEAT. NOW, WE DIDN'T DO WELL ENOUGH DURING THIS CAMPAIGN. THAT MUCH IS OBVIOUS TONIGHT, AND I ACCEPT FULL RESPONSIBILITY FOR THAT. EARLIER ON, I CALLED THE PRIME MINISTER TO CONGRATULATE HIM ON HIS SUCCESS TONIGHT. IT'S AN HISTORIC OCCASION FOR THE LABOUR PARTY, AND WE RECOGNISE THAT. I CONGRATULATED THE PRIME MINISTER AND WISHED HE AND JODIE AND NATHAN ALL THE VERY BEST. AND I SAID TO THE PRIME MINISTER THAT HIS MUM WOULD BE INCREDIBLY PROUD OF HIS ACHIEVEMENT TONIGHT, AND HE SHOULD BE VERY PROUD OF WHAT HE'S ACHIEVED. THERE HAVE BEEN TWO CENTRAL REASONS CREDITED FOR LABOUR'S TURNAROUND ` ONE, THE LIBERALS POOR CAMPAIGN, ONE, THE LIBERALS' POOR CAMPAIGN, WHICH INCLUDED HIGH-PROFILE GAFFES AND A MAJOR POLICY FLIP-FLOP; AND THE SECOND, THE TRUMP FACTOR. PETER DUTTON WAS DESCRIBED BY OPPONENTS AS AUSTRALIA'S DONALD TRUMP. AND WHILE HE FOUGHT TO DISABUSE THE COMPARISON, IT DIDN'T TAKE MUCH TO READ BETWEEN THE LINES IN ANTHONY ALBANESE'S VICTORY ADDRESS. WE DID NOT NEED TO BEG OR BORROW OR COPY FROM ANYWHERE ELSE. (CHEERING) WE DID NOT SEEK OUR INSPIRATION OVERSEAS. (CHEERING) WE FIND IT RIGHT HERE IN OUR VALUES AND IN OUR PEOPLE. IN THE AUDIENCE FOR LABOUR'S VICTORY WAS NEW ZEALAND'S LABOUR PARTY CAMPAIGN CHAIR. THEY'VE RUN A REALLY CLEAR CAMPAIGN. THEY'VE FOCUSED ON A FEW KEY THINGS THAT MATTER TO VOTERS, AND THEY'VE BEEN ABLE TO HIGHLIGHT WHAT A CHANGE IN GOVERNMENT WOULD MEAN WITH SIGNIFICANT CUTS. IT'S POSSIBLE THAT THEY'VE SEEN THE IMPACT OF THOSE CUTS IN NEW ZEALAND AND SAID, 'NO THANKS, WE DON'T WANT THAT HERE.' SO A COMBINATION OF A NOT A GREAT CAMPAIGN FROM THE COALITION, SO A COMBINATION OF NOT A GREAT CAMPAIGN FROM THE COALITION, BUT A VERY GOOD ONE FROM LABOUR. SOME OF LABOUR'S SUPPORT CAME AT THE EXPENSE OF THE GREENS, WHO DROPPED SEVERAL SEATS, WHILE THE SO-CALLED TEAL INDEPENDENT CANDIDATES LARGELY HELD THEIRS. AND AS ANTHONY ALBANESE WAKES UP AND PREPARES FOR HIS SECOND TERM, HIS VICTORY SERVES AS A REMINDER IN THE FACE OF GLOBAL VOLATILITY HOW QUICKLY FORTUNES CAN CHANGE. WE HAVE MORE DETAIL ON THE ELECTION RESULTS AND FALLOUT AT 1NEWS.CO.NZ. PUBLIC COMMISSIONER SIR BRIAN ROCHE HAS ANNOUNCED HE INTENDS TO TAKE A MORE ACTIVE ROLE IN COLLECTIVE BARGAINING ACROSS THE PUBLIC SECTOR. HAVING HELD SENIOR ROLES FOR GOVERNMENTS OF ALL STRIPES, HE WAS APPOINTED AS PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSIONER IN NOVEMBER. NOW, HE SAYS IT'S TIME TO 'LIBERATE' PUBLIC SERVANTS FROM A SYSTEM THAT'S BEEN TOO SCARED TO TAKE RISKS. I THINK AS A BASELINE, NEW ZEALANDERS SHOULD EXPECT GOOD EFFICIENCY, GOOD QUALITY AND GOOD VALUE FOR MONEY. AND THAT'S` YOU KNOW, IT IS THEIR INVESTMENT THAT WE SPEND EVERY DAY, AND THERE'S A DUTY OF CARE IN THAT, AND I THINK THE PUBLIC SERVICE SHOULD REPRESENT THAT EVERY TIME THEY DELIVER A SERVICE. WHAT WORKS WELL AND WHAT DOESN'T? I THINK WHAT WORKS REALLY WELL, BASED ON THE ANALYSIS THAT I'VE SEEN, IS ACTUALLY NEW ZEALANDERS DO TRUST THE PUBLIC SERVICE. THEY DO DELIVER WHEN THEY NEED TO, AND THEY'RE VERY GOOD AT IT. THE POINT THAT I WOULD RAISE IS WE'RE NOT AS GOOD AS WE CAN AND SHOULD BE FOR THE FUTURE. WE'RE NOT AS FUTURE-ORIENTATED; WE'RE NOT AS WELL-PREPARED FOR THE FUTURE AS WE NEED TO BE. AND SO ALTHOUGH THE SYSTEM HAS SERVED US REALLY WELL AND CONTINUES TO SERVE US REALLY WELL, WE HAVE TO MAKE CHANGE. WE HAVE TO ADOPT GREATER USE OF TECHNOLOGY, WE HAVE TO USE OUR DATA MORE EFFICIENTLY, AND WE HAVE TO USE AI TO SPEED UP THE QUALITY OF OUR DECISION-MAKING. OK, I'M GOING TO ASK YOU ABOUT SOME OF THAT DETAIL IN A COUPLE OF MINUTES. WHY WOULD SOMEONE LIKE YOU WANT THIS JOB? I ASK MYSELF THAT EVERY DAY, AS MY WIFE ASKED ME. UM... I WANT THIS JOB BECAUSE I THINK I CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE. I WAS ASKED TO DO THIS JOB. I WAS SEEN AS HAVING A SET OF SKILLS THAT PEOPLE NEEDED. I'M HAPPY TO DO IT FOR AS LONG AS I CAN, WHICH IS, YOU KNOW, THROUGH TO 2027, AND I'LL MAKE AS MUCH DIFFERENCE AS I CAN IN THAT TIME. YOU THINK YOUR APPOINTMENT IS AN EXPERIMENT OF SORTS? I LIKE TO THINK THAT IT'S A VERY CONTROLLED EXPERIMENT. IT WAS NOT A HAND GRENADE TO DISRUPT THE SYSTEM. I AM FAMILIAR WITH THE SYSTEM, BUT I'M NOT OF THE SYSTEM. RIGHT. SO, HUGELY RESPECTFUL OF THE PEOPLE I WORK WITH. I CONTINUE TO BE REALLY IMPRESSED BY THE QUALITY OF THE PEOPLE IN THE PUBLIC SECTOR. WHAT WORRIES ME IS THE SYSTEMS THAT SUPPORT THEM ARE NOT, AS I SAID EARLIER, FIT FOR PURPOSE, MM. ...AND WE NEED TO CHANGE THAT. WHAT HAS SURPRISED YOU IN THE MONTHS THAT YOU'VE BEEN IN THE ROLE SO FAR? THE THING THAT SURPRISES ME IS THE PEOPLE MAKE THE DIFFERENCE. THEY WORK DESPITE THE SYSTEM, AND THEY DO GREAT THINGS. AS WE'RE TALKING TODAY, THERE'LL BE PUBLIC SERVANTS DELIVERING FOR THE NEW ZEALAND PUBLIC THAT WE SHOULD BE PROUD OF. MM. SO IT WORKS BECAUSE OF THE PEOPLE, AND WE NEED TO LIBERATE THE PEOPLE TO GET THEM TO BE ABLE TO DO MORE. WE NEED TO DELEGATE MORE, AND I THINK WE NEED TO BECOME LESS ORIENTATED AT RISK. ALL RIGHT. THERE'S BEEN A LOT OF DISCUSSION ABOUT THE SIZE OF THE PUBLIC SERVICE, AND WHETHER OR NOT THE SIZE AND INVESTMENT THAT'S GOING INTO THE PUBLIC SERVICE RIGHT NOW NECESSARILY MATCHES THE OUTCOME. SO, AS THE GOVERNMENT TODAY IS FOND OF NOTING, THE CORE PUBLIC SERVICE GREW 34% BETWEEN 2017 AND 2023. IN YOUR VIEW, DID SERVICES IMPROVE BY A RELATIVE QUANTITY? I DON'T THINK SO. AND THAT IS A PROBLEM. WE'RE NOT THE ONLY ONE. I DON'T KNOW WHETHER YOU FOLLOW SIR KEIR STARMER ` HE'S MADE EXACTLY THE SAME POINT. PUBLIC SECTORS ACROSS THE WORLD ARE SPENDING MORE MONEY, BUT THERE'S A SENSE IT'S` WE'RE GETTING LESS FOR IT. AND I'VE GOT SOME WORK UNDERWAY TO TRY AND RECONCILE WHY DID IT GO UP BY SO MUCH, AND THERE ARE VERY GOOD REASONS TO DO WITH INFLATION AND DEMAND AND ALL OF THOSE THINGS. BUT I DON'T HAVE AN ANSWER THAT I FEEL PERSONALLY COMFORTABLE WITH AT THIS POINT THAT'S EVIDENCE-BASED. WHEN DO YOU THINK YOU'LL HAVE THAT? I WOULD HOPE IN THE NEXT TWO TO THREE MONTHS, BECAUSE I THINK WITHOUT UNDERSTANDING THE PROBLEM, IT'S HARD TO GET THE SOLUTION. MM. RNZ RECORDS 9500 JOB CUTS SO FAR IN THE PUBLIC SERVICE SINCE THIS GOVERNMENT TOOK OVER ` DO YOU ACCEPT THAT THAT HAS, AND/OR WILL IMPACT SERVICES AND OUTCOMES? I'M NOT SURE THAT'S A CORRECT NUMBER, ACTUALLY, BECAUSE I'M TOLD IT'S 2000. RIGHT. WELL, THERE'S THE` SO, LEAVING ASIDE THE NUMBER, THE PRINCIPLE IS` YES. ...THE PRINCIPLE IS THERE HAS BEEN RETRENCHMENT, THAT RETRENCHMENT WAS REQUIRED, AND IT WILL CONTINUE. I'D LOVE TO GUARANTEE EVERYONE THEIR JOB ` I DON'T KNOW AN INDUSTRY IN NEW ZEALAND THAT IS ABLE TO DO THAT IN GOOD FAITH. SO I THINK WHAT WE NEED TO DO IS FIND WHAT IS THE OPERATING MODEL THAT WILL BEST SERVE NEW ZEALAND TAXPAYERS IN THE FUTURE AND TRANSITION AND MIGRATE AS SOON AS WE PRACTICALLY CAN. RIGHT. TO THAT QUESTION, THOUGH ` DO YOU ACCEPT THAT RETRENCHMENT, THE PROCESS OF RETRENCHMENT, EITHER HAS ALREADY OR WILL IMPACT THE SERVICES THAT NEW ZEALANDERS GET FROM THE PUBLIC SERVICE? I DON'T ACCEPT THAT AS AN ARTICLE OF FAITH. I THINK THERE WILL BE INDIVIDUAL CASES WHERE THAT MAY BE TRUE, BUT I DON'T BELIEVE THAT TO BE TRUE AS A GENERALISATION. LET'S TALK ABOUT SOME OF THOSE CHANGES, THEN. YOU'VE TALKED ABOUT THE ROLE OF TECHNOLOGY ` THE MINISTER HAS SAID THAT AI IS KEY WHEN IT COMES TO HAVING A MORE EFFICIENT PUBLIC SERVICE. WHAT DO YOU ENVISAGE? AI IS IS GOING TO BE A HUGELY IMPORTANT THING FOR NEW ZEALAND. WE'RE STILL AT THE EARLY STAGES. WE DO USE IT IN SOME THINGS, BUT IT'S MORE OF BY EXCEPTION. WHAT I THINK SHE MEANS, AND WHAT I'M SUPPORTING, IS THAT WE NEED TO HAVE THAT AS THE WAY WE DO BUSINESS, AND WE NEED TO CHANGE THE LANGUAGE AND NOT BE FEARFUL OF THESE TOOLS. THEY WILL DEFINITELY IMPROVE THE QUALITY, AND THEY WILL DEFINITELY IMPROVE THE SPEED. IF I LOOK AT OTHER COUNTRIES, PARTICULARLY SINGAPORE, AND IN SOME OF THE STATES IN AUSTRALIA, WE ARE FALLING BEHIND IN OUR ADOPTION OF TECHNOLOGY. AND, YOU KNOW, OUR PUBLIC ADMINISTRATION, WHICH USED TO BE THE ENVY OF THE WORLD, IS NO LONGER. WE NEED TO CHANGE THAT. CAN YOU GIVE US A CONCRETE EXAMPLE OF HOW THOSE TOOLS MIGHT BE UTILISED? IF I THINK, AS AN EXAMPLE, CUSTOMS ` CUSTOMS HAVE A VAST AMOUNT OF INFORMATION ON VARIOUS SHIPMENTS, OF PEOPLE MOVEMENTS, BACKGROUND, CONNECTED TO OUR FIVE EYES. OF PEOPLE, MOVEMENTS, BACKGROUND, CONNECTED TO OUR FIVE EYES. THEY USE THAT INFORMATION TO TARGET INCOMING DRUGS. THEY DO THAT REALLY, REALLY WELL. AND, YOU KNOW, I HAD THE PRIVILEGE OF SITTING IN THEIR ROOM A FEW WEEKS AGO AND OBSERVING IT. THAT'S REAL-TIME USE OF DATA, REAL-TIME USE OF AI AND INTELLIGENCE AND APPLYING THAT TO WELL-TARGETED DECISIONS AND RESOURCE. I THINK, YOU KNOW, THOSE SORTS OF THINGS MAKE A DIFFERENCE TO HOW NEW ZEALAND OPERATES AND THE SECURITY AND SAFETY. RIGHT. THAT IS A GOOD EXAMPLE. SO WHY HAS CUSTOMS BEEN ABLE TO USE THAT, AND PERHAPS OTHER DEPARTMENTS OR ENTITIES HAVEN'T INTRODUCED THE SAME LEVELS OF TECHNOLOGY? YEAH, THAT IS A REALLY TRICKY QUESTION, AND ONE THAT OCCUPIES MY MIND. I THINK IT COMES DOWN TO THE LEADERSHIP OF THE CHIEF EXECUTIVES. YOU KNOW, AS I SAID EARLIER, PEOPLE MAKE A DIFFERENCE` MM. ...AND SOME PEOPLE ARE JUST ACTUALLY MORE CURIOUS AND MORE WANTING CHANGE THAN SOME OTHERS. I WOULD LIKE, YOU KNOW, THE WHOLE CONCEPT OF CURIOSITY TO BECOME AN ARTICLE OF FAITH IN THE NEW ZEALAND PUBLIC SERVICE. WE SHOULD ALWAYS BE QUESTIONING WHY WE DO IT AND WHETHER WE COULD DO IT BETTER. THAT'S WHAT THE PRIVATE SECTOR DOES. I CAN'T SEE WHY THE PUBLIC SECTOR CAN'T ADOPT THAT. IF DATA IS CRITICAL TO A MORE EFFICIENT PUBLIC SERVICE IN THE FUTURE, WHY SHOULD NEW ZEALANDERS TRUST THE GOVERNMENT TO KEEP THEIR INFORMATION SAFE? I MEAN... YOU KNOW, YOUR OWN PEOPLE HAVE BEEN IN CHARGE OF AN INVESTIGATION INTO STATISTICS NEW ZEALAND, FOR EXAMPLE, WITH RELATION` MANUREWA MARAE` MM. AND CLEARLY, THERE HAVE BEEN SOME WITH RELATION` MANUREWA MARAE. MM. AND CLEARLY, THERE HAVE BEEN SOME REAL CONCERNS OVER DATA AND INFORMATION IN THAT INSTANCE. WHY WOULD THE FUTURE BE ANY DIFFERENT? THE FUTURE HAS TO BE DIFFERENT. IT'S AN ARTICLE OF FAITH THAT WE, AS THE PUBLIC SECTOR, HAVE TO HAVE THE CONFIDENCE AND TRUST OF THE NEW ZEALAND PUBLIC. WE ALREADY HAVE A LOT OF THEIR INFORMATION. BUT THAT EXAMPLE YOU GAVE ` YOU KNOW, THAT WAS SOBERING. WHEN I READ THOSE REPORTS, AS A CITIZEN, I THOUGHT, 'THIS IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH,' AND THAT'S WHY WE DID WHAT WE DID. SO THAT IS THE THING THAT WE HAVE TO CONSTANTLY WORK FOR. BUT, YOU KNOW, THE INLAND REVENUE, MINISTRY OF HEALTH, WE HAVE A LOT OF DATA, AND IT'S VERY, VERY SENSITIVE, AND I THINK THERE'S AN EXTRAORDINARY DUTY OF CARE THAT CITIZENS CAN HAVE CONFIDENCE IN US. AND WE HAVE TO DO THAT WITHOUT FEAR OR FAVOUR. YOU SAID THAT THE PUBLIC SERVICE, AT TIMES, HAS BEEN TOO RISK-ADVERSE. AND YOU NOTED IN A SPEECH TO THE NEW ZEALAND ECONOMICS FORUM THIS YEAR, QUOTE, 'THE RISK OF DOING NOTHING 'IS OFTEN GREATER THAN THE RISK OF ACTION, 'SO WE NEED TO GO FROM AVOIDING RISK TO PROACTIVELY MANAGING IT.' I SUPPOSE IF YOU FLIP THAT AROUND, MIGHT PUBLIC SERVANTS NOT ARGUE AT TIMES THAT AVOIDING RISK MEANS AVOIDING POTENTIALLY WASTING TAXPAYER MONEY? YEAH, IT'S A COMPLICATED THING. MY COMMENTS ARE BASED AROUND THE SENSE THAT WE HAVE A LOT OF ARCHITECTURE WHICH IS ABOUT MANAGING RISK. WE HAVE A LOT OF INTER-DEPARTMENTAL MEETINGS. WE HAVE A VERY HIGH-TOUCH CONSULTATION MODEL. THOSE ARE ALL GOOD, BUT NOT THEY HAVE TO BE KEPT IN MEASURES. SO MY POINT IS, IF WE FOCUSED AS MUCH ON CREATING VALUE AS WE DID ON MANAGING RISK, WE WOULD HAVE A DIFFERENT ECONOMY. THE PUBLIC SECTOR REPRESENTS AN ENORMOUS PART OF OUR ECONOMY, AND IT HAS TO BE COMPARABLE TO THE PRIVATE SECTOR IN TERMS OF ITS PRODUCTIVITY, AND I DON'T THINK WE ARE THERE YET. MM. CAN YOU RECALL A SPECIFIC EXAMPLE WHERE YOU THINK THE PUBLIC SERVICE HAS BEEN TOO RISK-AVERSE AND HAS PERHAPS MISSED AN OPPORTUNITY? NO, BUT I DO GET A GENERAL SENSE THAT WE CIRCLE THE PROBLEM FOR ANOTHER LOOK AT IT, AND WE GO TO THE 99TH PERCENTILE OF CONFIDENCE. LIFE IS ABOUT TRADE-OFFS. I` WHEN I MENTION RISK, I DON'T MEAN FRIVOLOUS, I JUST THINK WE NEED TO JUST ACCEPT THAT RISK IS A FACT OF LIFE, AND EVERYTHING YOU DO HAS A RISK, BECAUSE I WOULD ARGUE THAT THE RISK OF NOT DOING IT IS FAR GREATER AT TIMES. BUT WE DON'T COST THAT, AND WE DON'T VALUE IT, AND THAT SLOWS THE ECONOMY DOWN, AND WE ALL PAY THAT. IS WELLINGTON A BUBBLE? IT IS A BUBBLE, WHICH IS WHY I TRY AND SPEND AS MUCH TIME AS I CAN OUT OF IT. BECAUSE AS MUCH AS I LOVE WELLINGTON, IT ISN'T THE ONLY WORLD VIEW, AND I PERSONALLY GET REALLY, SORT OF, MUCH MORE ENERGISED WHEN I'M OUT TALKING TO FRONTLINE STAFF MEMBERS. YOU KNOW, WELLINGTON IS SYNONYMOUS WITH THE PUBLIC SECTOR. MM. ONLY 45% OF THE PUBLIC SERVICE ARE BASED IN WELLINGTON. THE MAJORITY IS OUTSIDE. YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THE CORE PUBLIC SERVICE, OR THE`? RIGHT. THE CORE PUBLIC SECTOR, BECAUSE THE CORE PUBLIC SERVICE IS 63,000. THE WHOLE PUBLIC SERVICE IS IN THE VICINITY OF 480,000, YOU KNOW? SO THIS IS A VERY, VERY BIG ALGORITHM WITH A LOT OF MOVING PARTS. SO, YOU KNOW, WELLINGTON IS IMPORTANT, BUT WE NEED TO GET THE BALANCE RIGHT BETWEEN WHERE THE THINKING IS DONE AND WHERE THE WORK ACTUALLY GETS DELIVERED, AND I DON'T THINK WE'VE ALWAYS GOT THAT RIGHT. SO HOW DO YOU CHANGE THAT? I WOULD LIKE TO SEE GREATER DEVOLUTION TO REGIONAL NEW ZEALAND. I THINK, YOU KNOW, WE'VE GOT GREAT PEOPLE ` THEY'RE THE ONES THAT MAKE THE DIFFERENCE EVERY DAY. WE SHOULD TRUST THEM AND EMPOWER THEM TO DO MORE. WHY WOULDN'T WE DO THAT? THERE JUST SEEMS TO BE AN ANSWER, WHICH` 'THAT'S NOT THE WAY WE DO IT.' FROM WHOM? THAT'S WHAT` WELL, FROM PEOPLE IN WELLINGTON, MAINLY. (LAUGHS) FUNNY THAT! BUT I MEAN, THE THING IS` THIS IS PART OF THE CONTROLLED EXPERIMENT. YEAH. LET'S TRY SOME THINGS. YOU KNOW, INNOVATION IS KEY TO THE PERFORMANCE OF BUSINESS. YEAH. WE NEED TO ADOPT THE SAME SORT OF PRINCIPLES, BUT IN DOING THAT, WE HAVE TO BE PRUDENT WITH MONEY, AND WE HAVE TO BE ACCOUNTABLE FOR MONEY. MM. I WANT TO TALK ABOUT POLITICAL NEUTRALITY. I THINK AT LEAST EIGHT MEMBERS, OR EIGHT LEADERS OF PUBLIC SERVICE AGENCIES DIRECTLY UNDER YOUR PURVIEW HAVE LEFT THEIR ROLES SINCE THE NEW GOVERNMENT CAME INTO POWER, AND THERE ARE A VARIETY OF STATED REASONS, INCLUDING THINGS LIKE MEDICAL CONDITIONS AND THAT KIND OF THING. YEAH. BUT WOULD YOU ACCEPT THAT THAT'S AN ABNORMALLY HIGH NUMBER? I DON'T THINK IT'S ABNORMALLY HIGH. I JUST THINK IT REFLECTS CONTRACTUAL CYCLES, AND CHANGE. THE POLITICISATION OF NEW ZEALAND'S PUBLIC SERVICE IS SOMETHING THAT WE REMAIN VERY DILIGENT ON, AND, YOU KNOW, IT'S ACTUALLY TALKED ABOUT MORE, AND IT'S NOT IN REALITY, MY EXPERIENCE OF IT, BEING POLITICISED. I THINK, YOU KNOW, WE` SO, EXPLAIN` SORRY, I'M CONFUSED WHAT YOU MEAN. WE ARE NOT AS POLITICISED AS SOME WOULD HAVE YOU BELIEVE. OH, RIGHT. IN FACT, I THINK WE'RE VERY NEUTRAL, AS WE SHOULD BE. CONSTITUTIONALLY, THAT'S AN IMPORTANT ARTICLE FOR NEW ZEALAND, SO IT'S SOMETHING THAT WE HAVE TO REMAIN ALERT TO, BUT I DON'T SEE ANY PARTICULAR EXAMPLES OF IT AT ALL. WHY DOES IT MATTER? WHY DOES POLITICAL NEUTRALITY IN THE PUBLIC SERVICE MATTER? I THINK THE PUBLIC DESERVE TO KNOW THAT THEY HAVE AN INDEPENDENT GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO SERVE THE GOVERNMENT OF THE DAY. THAT'S THE ARTICLE OF FAITH UNDER THE ACT THAT I'M RESPONSIBLE FOR, AND THAT IS ONE THAT WE WILL DELIVER TO THE BEST OF MY ABILITY. IS THAT AN APPROPRIATE MODEL FOR THIS DAY AND AGE? I THINK SO. IT WORKS WELL. IT HAS STOOD THE TEST OF TIME, AND THE QUALITY OF PEOPLE THAT WE'RE ABLE TO ATTRACT ARE STILL VERY GOOD, AND THEY SERVE, WITHOUT FEAR OR FAVOUR, THE MASTERS OF THE DAY. IN FEBRUARY, JUDITH COLLINS MADE A FASCINATING SPEECH UPON ASSUMING HER MINISTERIAL RESPONSIBILITY, IN WHICH SHE HIT ON THIS POINT, AND SHE SAID, QUOTE, 'PUBLIC SERVANTS WHO SPEAK TRUTH TO POWER BY TELLING MINISTERS 'THEIR PET POLICY IDEAS ARE CRAZY AND UNWORKABLE DON'T GET FAR, 'BUT NEITHER DO PUBLIC SERVANTS WHO NOD ALONG 'AND PROMISE TO DELIVER THE UNDELIVERABLE. 'THAT'S A BETRAYAL OF THE RESPONSIBILITIES 'OF A PUBLIC SERVANT, AND RESULTS IN POLICY DISASTER.' DO YOU AGREE WITH THAT? YEP. YOU NEED A CERTAIN CHARACTER TO BE ABLE TO TELL SOMETHING THAT THEY DON'T WANT TO HEAR, AND I'M SURE WE'VE ALL HAD EXPERIENCES OF THAT. SO THAT'S HOW YOU GET THE CONFIDENCE AND TRUST OF THE POLITICAL MASTERS, IS YOU TELL THEM WHAT THEY NEED TO HEAR, BUT YOU DO HAVE TO DO IT IN A WAY WHICH MAKES SENSE AND WHICH HAS POLITICAL CONTEXT. THAT IS THE REALITY OF THEIR WORLD. MM. AND SO I DON'T THINK THAT COMPROMISES INDEPENDENCE AT ALL. DARE I ASK, THEN ` WHAT IS THE MOST SIGNIFICANT PUSHBACK YOU'VE GIVEN? I HAVEN'T HAD MANY, TO BE HONEST, BECAUSE` YOU KNOW, WE'RE GOING THROUGH A PROCESS. I HAVEN'T HAD TO EVER PUT SOMETHING FORWARD THAT HAS BEEN REJECTED. AS IT STANDS, ARE PUBLIC SECTOR CHIEF EXECUTIVES TOO EASILY REAPPOINTED? I THINK THERE HAS BEEN A LITTLE BIT OF EXPERIENCE BEFORE I GOT THERE, BY THE WAY, OF PEOPLE BEING ROTATED THROUGH JOBS WITHOUT PERHAPS DUE SCRUTINY. THAT'S GOING TO BE ADDRESSED IN THE CHANGES TO THE ACT, WHERE, AFTER A FIVE-YEAR TERM OR A THREE-YEAR TERM, THAT THERE IS A PROCESS WHERE PEOPLE GET RE-SCRUTINISED AND COMPARED TO THE MARKET. I THINK THAT'S HEALTHY FOR THEM, AND IT'S HEALTHY FOR THE SYSTEM. RIGHT. HOW HAS THAT BEEN ALLOWED TO HAPPEN? IT'S SORT OF... I THINK IT'S JUST HAPPENED. IT'S NOT SOMETHING THAT I PERSONALLY SUPPORT. I WOULD RATHER THAT PEOPLE GO THROUGH CONTESTABLE PROCESSES. I THINK IT'S GOOD FOR THEM, AND YOU KNOW YOU'RE GETTING THE BEST. AND YOU KNOW, THE ARTICLE OF MAKING SURE THAT WE DO MERIT-BASED IS A NON-NEGOTIABLE AS WELL. I'LL ASK YOU ABOUT THE MERIT-BASED PROCESS IN A MOMENT ` DO YOU THINK POLITICIANS IN NEW ZEALAND SHOULD HAVE A GREATER SAY WHEN IT COMES TO THE APPOINTMENT OF THOSE LEADERSHIP ROLES? THEY HAVE A SIGNIFICANT SAY ALREADY. THEY SIGN OFF THE JOB DESCRIPTION. THEY GET ACCESS TO THE LONGLIST OF CANDIDATES. THEY GET ACCESS TO THE LONG LIST OF CANDIDATES. THEY GET ACCESS TO THE SHORT LIST OF CANDIDATES. SO THEIR VOICE IS HEARD. AND THAT'S SUFFICIENT IN YOUR VIEW? I BELIEVE IT TO BE SUFFICIENT. IF THEY WERE GIVEN GREATER POWERS TO NIX A CANDIDATE, OR TO APPROVE A CANDIDATE OR EVEN PUT ONE FORWARD, WOULD THAT END PERCEPTIONS AROUND PUBLIC NEUTRALITY? IT HAS HAPPENED ONCE IN NEW ZEALAND PUBLIC SECTOR, IN THE EARLY 1990s. WE AVOID THOSE SITUATIONS. THE PUBLIC SERVICE HAS PROACTIVELY RECORDED GENDER AND ETHNIC PAY GAPS, BUT THE REFORMS TO THE PUBLIC SERVICE ACT WILL REINFORCE MERIT-BASED APPOINTMENT. IF MERIT IS ALL THAT MATTERS, SHOULD THE PUBLIC SERVICE STILL RECORD THAT INFORMATION? THEY RECORD THAT INFORMATION FOR A WHOLE LOT OF OTHER REASONS. MERIT IS THE ARTICLE OF FAITH. I AM CONFIDENT THAT ALL THE APPOINTMENTS OF CHIEF EXECUTIVES ARE MERIT-BASED. THAT HAS NEVER CHANGED. WHAT ARE THE OTHER REASONS THEY RECORD THAT INFORMATION? IT'S USEFUL TO KNOW WHAT YOUR WORKFORCE LOOKS LIKE. I MEAN, WE'RE TRYING TO CREATE A WORK ENVIRONMENT WHICH IS RESPECTFUL OF PEOPLE. THOSE THINGS ARE IMPORTANT. ARE THEY PREDETERMINANTS OF ANYTHING? NO, BUT I THINK THEY'RE USEFUL INFORMATION TO HAVE. SURELY, IF YOU'RE COLLECTING THAT INFORMATION, THAT IS THEN POTENTIALLY INFLUENCING SOME OF THE HIRING DECISIONS? I DON'T THINK WE'RE TRYING TO CORRECT ANY IMBALANCE ` WE'RE JUST TRYING TO GET EQUILIBRIUM, TO GET PERSPECTIVE. BECAUSE COUPLED WITH MERIT IS PERSPECTIVE ` THOSE TWO GO HAND IN HAND. BUT, YOU KNOW, WHEN WE MAKE A RECOMMENDATION ON AN APPOINTMENT, WE HAVE TO KNOW THAT THAT IS THE BEST CANDIDATE FOR THIS CURRENT JOB, AND I'M CONFIDENT WE DO THAT. YOU AGREED TO BE APPOINTED TO THE ROLE ON THE BASIS YOU COULD HOLD ON TO A SMALL NUMBER OF PRIVATE-SECTOR BOARD POSITIONS, AND THE GOVERNOR GENERAL APPROVED THIS ON THE BASIS THE CONFLICTS OF INTEREST ARE APPROPRIATELY HANDLED. BUT WHEN PERCEPTIONS OF UNFAIR ADVANTAGE ARE SO IMPORTANT, WHY HOLD ON TO THOSE POSITIONS? I HOLD ON TO THEM FOR A NUMBER OF REASONS ` ONE, I'D GIVEN MY WORD TO CERTAIN OF THOSE ENTITIES THAT I WOULD CONTINUE. THAT WAS A PRECONDITION OF ME CONSIDERING THE JOB. I GAVE UP QUITE A LOT TO TAKE ON THE ROLE, WHICH I WAS HAPPY TO DO. SECONDLY, I BELIEVE REMAINING CONNECTED TO THE PRODUCTIVE ECONOMY IS REALLY IMPORTANT. YOUR EARLIER POINT ABOUT WELLINGTON BEING A BUBBLE ` I HAVE TO HAVE` THAT WAS YOUR POINT. (LAUGHS) I HAVE TO HAVE REASON TO REMAIN CONNECTED TO WHERE VALUE IS CREATED AND WHERE PROFITS ARE MADE. SO THOSE THINGS ARE IMPORTANT. BUT THE ISSUES OF CONFLICT OF INTEREST ARE TOP OF MIND FOR ME, AND HAVE BEEN SINCE I FIRST WORKED IN THE PUBLIC SECTOR IN 1989 FOR DAVID LANGE. I HAVE BEEN IN VARIOUS SITUATIONS WHERE I HAVE THEORETICALLY HAD ACCESS TO INFORMATION. I HAVE NEVER EVER HAD MY INTEGRITY QUESTIONED, AND I WILL CONTINUE TO MAKE SURE THAT'S THE CASE UNTIL I RETIRE. TALK TO US JUST A BIT ABOUT THAT BALANCE, THOUGH, BECAUSE EVEN IF THERE IS AN ADVANTAGE TO HAVING PRIVATE-SECTOR INSIGHTS, HOW CAN YOU KNOW IF THE BENEFITS OF THAT ARE NOT OUTWEIGHED BY ANY ENDURING PERCEPTIONS OF UNFAIR ADVANTAGE? EVEN IF YOU MANAGE THOSE CONFLICTS OF INTEREST. BECAUSE YOU GET INTO A BLACK HOLE OF CONSPIRACY IN SOME OF THAT THINKING. I AM ABSOLUTELY CONFIDENT THERE IS NO ADVANTAGE. I'M REQUIRED UNDER THE COMMITMENT I'VE GIVEN TO THE GOVERNOR GENERAL AND OTHERS TO HONOUR THOSE, AND I WILL DO THAT. SECONDLY, TRADING ON INSIDE INFORMATION IS AGAINST THE LAW. THAT IS SOMETHING THAT I WILL AVOID AT ALL COSTS. AND THIRDLY, I'M A MEMBER OF A PROFESSION, STILL, THAT REQUIRES ME TO HAVE ETHICAL STANDARDS, WHICH I'M OBLIGED TO KEEP. I'M VERY COMFORTABLE WITH THE LEVEL OF SCRUTINY THAT EXISTS AROUND THIS. IT'S VERY TRANSPARENT, AND I AM UNDER WATCH ALL THE TIME. THAT WAS PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSIONER SIR BRIAN ROCHE. AFTER THE BREAK ` JAMES MEAGER CHAIRED THE TREATY PRINCIPLES SELECT COMMITTEE AND HAS JUST BEEN APPOINTED THE MINISTER FOR THE SOUTH ISLAND. SO WHAT WILL THAT MEAN FOR PEOPLE IN THE SOUTH? DESPITE ITS MAJORITY OWNERSHIP OF AIR NEW ZEALAND, THE GOVERNMENT SAYS IT WANTS MORE COMPETITION IN DOMESTIC AIR TRAVEL. THE ASSOCIATE TRANSPORT MINISTER IS RANGITATA MP JAMES MEAGER, WHO CHAIRED THE SELECT COMMITTEE FOR THE TREATY PRINCIPLES BILL, AND WAS MADE MINISTER FOR THE SOUTH ISLAND, HUNTING AND FISHING, AND MINISTER FOR YOUTH EARLIER THIS YEAR. I SAT DOWN WITH JAMES MEAGER IN BEAUTIFUL TIMARU AND BEGAN BY ASKING IF HE RECKONS DOMESTIC AIRFARES ARE TOO EXPENSIVE. I THINK AT TIMES THEY CAN BE, AND I THINK YOU CAN LOOK AT OCCASIONS WHERE IF YOU'VE GOT TO TAKE THREE KIDS TO A FUNERAL UP NORTH, AND YOU'RE SPENDING 1200 BUCKS RETURN EACH, THAT'S HARD. THAT IS REALLY HARD. SO AT TIMES, THEY CAN BE, AND I KNOW THERE ARE ALL SORTS OF REASONS WHY, AND WE CAN LET AIR NEW ZEALAND EXPLAIN THAT, BUT I GUESS OUR JOB IN THIS IS TO FIGURE OUT WHAT ARE THE THINGS THAT WE CAN DO TO HELP RELIEVE THAT PRESSURE. SO DO YOU THINK AIR NEW ZEALAND IS CHARGING TOO MUCH AT TIMES? I THINK IT DEPENDS ON YOUR PERSONAL CIRCUMSTANCES. I CERTAINLY THINK THAT MOST PEOPLE COULDN'T AFFORD A $600 AIRFARE, AND IT IS DIFFICULT. SO, YEAH, AT TIMES, I THINK THE FARES ARE HIGH, BUT THEY'VE GOT COMMERCIAL DECISIONS TO MAKE, AND I UNDERSTAND THEY'RE` ALL THE ISSUES AROUND COSTS AND PILOTS, AND PARTS AND PLANES, AND ALL THAT KIND OF STUFF. SO WHETHER OR NOT I THINK IT'S TOO HIGH OR NOT, IT'S CERTAINLY HIGH FOR MANY PEOPLE, AND IT MAKES TRAVEL DIFFICULT. THERE ARE LOTS OF AIRLINES IN THE WORLD ` IF YOU BELIEVE IN MARKET FORCES, AND AIR NEW ZEALAND IS AT TIMES CHARGING TOO MUCH, IN THE VIEW OF SOME PEOPLE, WHY DOESN'T AIR NEW ZEALAND FACE MORE COMPETITION? I THINK PART OF IT IS THE SIZE OF OUR MARKET. YOU'VE GOT TO HAVE A MARKET WHICH IS LARGE ENOUGH FOR THOSE INTERNATIONAL COMPETITORS AND OTHER COMPETITORS TO BE ABLE TO COME IN AND SAY, 'YEP, WE ACTUALLY THINK 'WE CAN MAKE A RETURN AND WE CAN PROVIDE A SERVICE HERE.' YOU SEE THAT A LITTLE BIT ON OUR MAIN ROUTES WITH JETSTAR BEING A GOOD COMPETITOR. I SAID THIS LAST WEEK ` THE ROUTES WHERE JETSTAR FLIES, THE RELIABILITY IS BETTER AND THE PRICES ARE LOWER. SO I THINK COMPETITION DOES MAKE A DIFFERENCE. YOU SEE THAT ALSO WITH SOME OF OUR SMALLER REGIONAL AIRLINES, WHERE THEY CAN COME IN AND THEY CAN DISRUPT A LITTLE BIT AND PUT A BIT OF PRESSURE ON. AND ONE OF THE BIG CRITICISMS THAT I GET LOCALLY IS THAT THE RISK THAT NEW AIRLINES COMING IN MEANS THAT AIR NEW ZEALAND WILL DROP THEIR PRICES AND TRY AND, YOU KNOW, COMPETE THEM OUT OF THE SPACE. I DON'T MIND THAT. I DON'T MIND IF A COMPETITOR CAME IN TO TIMARU AIRPORT AND ALL OF A SUDDEN, THE AIRFARES GOT REDUCED BY 30 OR 40%. AND ALL OF A SUDDEN, THE AIRFARES GOT REDUCED BY 30% OR 40%. BUT THE TROUBLE IS, IS THAT OUR MARKET ISN'T PROBABLY BIG ENOUGH TO ENCOURAGE THOSE COMPETITORS IN AT THE MOMENT. SO WE'RE LOOKING AT THINGS THAT WE CAN DO TO HELP ENCOURAGE COMPETITION. BUT SHOULDN'T IT BE BIG ENOUGH IF, INDEED, AIR NEW ZEALAND IS OVERCHARGING PEOPLE? IF AIR NEW ZEALAND'S CHARGING TOO MUCH, THEN SURELY THERE'S A RIPE OPPORTUNITY FOR ANOTHER PLAYER TO COME IN AND CHARGE LESS. THAT WOULD BE THE ARGUMENT, AND THAT WOULD LEAD YOU TO THINK THAT PERHAPS THEY AREN'T OVERCHARGING, BECAUSE IF THERE WAS MONEY LEFT ON THE FLOOR, THERE WOULD BE LOTS OF MONEY THERE FOR AIRLINES TO COME IN AND MAKE IT. SO EXPLAIN TO ME THE ECONOMIC RATIONALE BEHIND INCENTIVISING COMPETITION AGAINST A COMPANY FOR WHICH YOU ARE THE MAJORITY SHAREHOLDER. YEAH, WELL, THERE'S AN ECONOMIC TENSION THERE, ISN'T THERE, BECAUSE` (LAUGHS) IT'S MORE THAN AN ECONOMIC TENSION, ISN'T IT? ...THE TAXPAYER OWNS AIR NEW ZEALAND, AND THE TAXPAYER SHOULD DEMAND A DIVIDEND FROM THAT BECAUSE THAT'S PART OF THE REASON FOR INVESTING IN THEM. THE OTHER PART IS THAT THERE IS A SENSE OF VALUE IN PUBLIC OWNERSHIP FOR THE NATIONAL CARRIER, AND SOME OF THE PUBLIC SERVICE REQUIREMENTS THAT MIGHT COME WITH THAT. NOW, THOSE ARE REALLY DECISIONS THAT FALL A LITTLE BIT OUT OF MY PURVIEW, AND ARE SHAREHOLDING MINISTER'S DECISIONS. BUT THE THING THAT WE CARE ABOUT MOST IS THE FACT THAT CONSUMERS NEED TO HAVE CHOICE, ESPECIALLY IN THE SOUTH ISLAND. YOU'VE GOT TO HAVE CHOICE WHEN YOU ARE ALREADY GEOGRAPHICALLY ISOLATED, AND SO THINGS THAT WE CAN DO TO REDUCE PRESSURE ON AIRFARES ARE, I THINK, A GOOD STEP. WELL, I THINK OUR INVESTMENT IN AIRPORT INFRASTRUCTURE IS A KEY THING ` YOU'VE SEEN A BIT OF THAT ALREADY OVER ON THE WEST COAST ` I WAS AT HOKITIKA AIRPORT LAST WEEK, AND THERE'S SOME INVESTMENT GOING IN THERE FROM THE REGIONAL INFRASTRUCTURE FUND. AND THAT'S IMPORTANT, BECAUSE A) IT MAINTAINS THE VIABILITY OF THOSE AIRPORTS, BUT B) IT MEANS THE AIRPORTS GET A LITTLE BIT OF ASSISTANCE SO THAT THEY DON'T HAVE TO UP THEIR LANDING FEES AND MAKE IT UNCOMPETITIVE FOR SMALLER AIRLINES TO COME IN. THAT MEANS YOU GET THE LIKES OF SOUNDS AIR AND CHATHAMS AND ORIGIN AND SUNAIR, AND ALL THOSE NEW PLAYERS WHO CAN ACTUALLY PROVIDE A SERVICE THAT AIR NEW ZEALAND MIGHT NOT NECESSARILY BE ABLE TO JUSTIFY ECONOMICALLY. I'M SURE IF YOU ASKED AIR NEW ZEALAND WHETHER OR NOT THEY MAKE A HUGE AMOUNT OF MONEY FLYING TO THE REGIONS, THEY'LL PROBABLY SAY PROBABLY NOT, BUT THEY DO PROVIDE THOSE SERVICES BECAUSE THEY REALISE THE SOCIAL VALUE, AND THE VALUE OF BEING A NATIONAL CARRIER THERE TOO. YOU OVERSAW THE TREATY PRINCIPLES SELECT COMMITTEE PROCESS. DO YOU ACTUALLY OPPOSE THE SUBSTANCE OF THE BILL AS IT WAS DESCRIBED? WELL, AS A MEMBER OF THE GOVERNMENT, AND THERE WAS A GOVERNMENT POSITION ON THIS, AGREED BY, OBVIOUSLY, COALITION PARTNERS, I'M BOUND BY WHAT OUR GOVERNMENT POLICY IS ON THAT, SO` YOU CAN STILL HAVE A VIEW. I'M NOT SUGGESTING YOU CHANGE YOUR VOTE OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT ` I JUST WONDER WHAT YOUR POSITION IS ON THE ACTUAL SUBSTANCE OF THE BILL. IT'S AN ISSUE` I WILL COME TO IT, BUT IT'S AN INTERESTING THING THAT WHEN YOU ARE A MINISTER IN GOVERNMENT, YOU DO FORGO A LOT OF PERSONAL VIEWS, BECAUSE YOU THEN BECOME BOUND BY THE COLLECTIVE RESPONSIBILITY DOCTRINES OF CABINET` OF CABINET. ...AND OF` OF THE CABINET MANUAL, WHICH APPLIES TO MINISTERS OUTSIDE OF CABINET AS WELL. SO, IT` I DON'T WANT IT TO SOUND LIKE IT'S A NON-ANSWER, BUT I ACTUALLY DON'T HOLD PERSONAL VIEWS ON ISSUES OF GOVERNMENT POLICY, BECAUSE I AM BOUND BY WHAT THE GOVERNMENT SAYS ON THAT. MAYBE I CAN, UM... GET TO THE QUESTION I WANT ANSWERED` (CHUCKLES) ...BY GOING AT IT A DIFFERENT WAY. HAVING CONSIDERED SO MANY OF THOSE SUBMISSIONS, DOES TE TIRITI O WAITANGI SPECIFICALLY GUARANTEE RIGHTS TO MAORI THAT WERE NOT GUARANTEED IN THE TREATY, OR TE TIRITI, TO OTHER NEW ZEALANDERS? I THINK THAT'S A CONTESTED ANSWER. WHAT'S YOUR ANSWER TO THAT? WELL, I CAN REFLECT ON SOME OF THE SUBMISSIONS THAT CAME THROUGH, BECAUSE PEOPLE WHO WERE OPPOSED TO THE BILL GAVE OPPOSING ANSWERS TO THAT QUESTION. SOME PEOPLE SAID, 'YES, OF COURSE ` IT GIVES DIFFERENT RIGHTS TO THE SIGNATORIES TO THE TREATY ` IWI AND HAPU. BUT WHAT'S YOUR POSITION, HAVING CONSIDERED ARGUMENTS ON BOTH SIDES OF THAT ` DOES TE TIRITI O WAITANGI GUARANTEE MAORI SPECIFIC RIGHTS THAT WERE NOT NECESSARILY GUARANTEED TO OTHER NEW ZEALANDERS? MY VIEW IS THE ONE THAT THE GOVERNMENT HOLDS, WHICH IS THAT RIGHTS UNDER THE TREATY ARE BASICALLY FOUND WITHIN STATUTE LAW AND WITHIN TREATY SETTLEMENTS, AND THE APPLICATION OF STATUTE LAW TO THAT. BEYOND THAT, THE RIGHTS THAT EVERY NEW ZEALANDER HAS ARE THE SAME. BUT WE OPERATE IN A SYSTEM WHERE THOSE RIGHTS ARE CHALLENGED, AND SOMETIMES THEY ARE INTERPRETED DIFFERENTLY IN THE COURTS. SO I THINK THAT MR SEYMOUR'S ARGUMENTS AROUND CLARIFYING WHAT THE PRINCIPLES ARE WAS A WORTHWHILE ONE TO HAVE. WE DIDN'T NECESSARILY THINK IT WAS THE ONE THAT THIS BILL WOULD SOLVE. WE'VE GOT OTHER MECHANISMS AND OTHER COALITION COMMITMENTS AROUND REVIEWING TREATY PRINCIPLES THAT WE THINK CAN MORE PROPERLY ADDRESS THOSE ON A CASE-BY-CASE BASIS ` SO, USING A SPECIFIC SOLUTION TO DEAL WITH SPECIFIC PROBLEMS, RATHER THAN A BROAD-BRUSH APPROACH THAT PERHAPS SOME OF THE LEGAL INTERPRETATIONS FROM THE COURT HAVE GOT US INTO STRIFE WITH RECENTLY AS WELL. HOW DID OVERSEEING THAT PROCESS AND ENGAGING WITH THE SUBMISSIONS IMPACT THE WAY THAT YOU THINK ABOUT YOUR OWN MAORI WHAKAPAPA? UH` IT'S... I HAVE BEEN ASKED THIS A COUPLE OF TIMES. IT DIDN'T SIGNIFICANTLY IMPACT` APART FROM THE REALISATION, AND INCREASINGLY SO AS A CHAIR OF THE SELECT COMMITTEE, WHERE WE GOT A LOT OF PEOPLE COMING AND TALKING ABOUT THE MAORI WORLD-VIEW ON THIS, OR MAORI THINK THAT ` THE IDEA THAT THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE OUT THERE WHO THINK THAT ALL MAORI, OR ALL PEOPLE WHO WHAKAPAPA MAORI THINK THE SAME ` AND THAT'S CLEARLY NOT THE CASE, EVEN THROUGH THE SELECT COMMITTEE PROCESS. I MEAN, YOU'VE GOT` THE AUTHOR OF THE BILL WHAKAPAPAS MAORI` YEAH. ...AND HAS A DIFFERENT VIEW ON THESE THINGS. SO IT DIDN'T ALTER HOW I THINK ABOUT MYSELF. IT SORT OF MADE ME REALISE THAT MORE PEOPLE THAN I THOUGHT THINK THAT WE THINK HOMOGENEOUSLY, AND THAT THERE IS ONE PARTICULAR WORLD-VIEW, AND THAT'S SOMETHING THAT DOESN'T SIT COMFORTABLY WITH ME, BECAUSE IF I DON'T THEN FIT WITHIN THAT WORLD-VIEW` MM. ...WHERE DOES THAT MAKE ME SIT IN TERMS OF HAVING MAORI WHAKAPAPA? DOES IT MEAN I DON'T COUNT ANY MORE? WELL, OBVIOUSLY THAT CAN'T BE THE CASE, JUST COS I'VE GOT A DIFFERENT VIEW ON MAYBE RIGHTS AROUND PROPERTY DOESN'T MEAN THAT I'M NO LONGER MAORI. SO IT'S A` IT'S AN INTERESTING SITUATION TO BE IN, AND NOT SOMETHING THAT I'VE BEEN ABLE TO PROBABLY PUT ENOUGH THOUGHT TO. DO YOU THINK THAT SAME PHENOMENON EXTENDS BEYOND RACE? DO YOU THINK THAT SAME PHENOMENON IS KIND OF, UM... PARTICULARLY PROMINENT IN WHAT IS, FOR WANT OF A BETTER TERM, AN 'IDENTITY POLITICS' ERA? YEAH, ABSOLUTELY. I THINK I ALLUDED TO THAT IN MY MAIDEN SPEECH A LITTLE BIT, WHERE WE MAKE ASSUMPTIONS ABOUT AN INDIVIDUAL'S WORLD-VIEW BASED ON THEIR BACKGROUND, AND SAYING THAT YEP, YOU GREW UP IN A WORKING-CLASS PART OF TOWN, YOUR DAD WAS A FREEZING WORKER, AND YOUR MUM BROUGHT YOU UP ON HER OWN, SO THEREFORE YOU SHOULD BE A LABOUR VOTER. WELL, THAT ASCRIBES A CERTAIN WORLD-VIEW BASED ON A PREJUDICE OR A STEREOTYPE OF WHERE THOSE PEOPLE SHOULD END UP THINKING. AND I THINK IT DEVALUES WHAT I HAVE TO OFFER AS AN INDIVIDUAL AND MY EXPERIENCES WITHIN MY FAMILY AND MY COMMUNITY. SO I THINK YOU'RE RIGHT ` I THINK IT EXTENDS FROM RACE TO EVERYTHING FROM GENDER TO CULTURE, TO NATIONALITY, TO AGE, TO WHETHER OR NOT YOU BELIEVE IN THE WORKING-CLASS STRUCTURE. TO THINK THAT ALL WORKING-CLASS PEOPLE THINK X, Y, Z IS NOT A HELPFUL WAY, I THINK, OF THINKING. 300,000-PLUS SUBMISSIONS FOR THE TREATY PRINCIPLES BILL ` DO YOU THINK OUR SELECT COMMITTEE PROCESS AND THE SUBMISSIONS PROCESS IS FIT FOR THIS AGE? BECAUSE WHEN YOU REFLECT ON A LOT OF THOSE SUBMISSIONS, MANY WERE JUST CUT-AND-PASTE JOBS. MANY HAD BEEN PUT THROUGH THIRD PARTIES WHO MIGHT HAVE, YOU KNOW, A RANGE OF MOTIVATIONS FOR DRIVING UP SUPPORT FOR SUBMISSIONS. HOW DO YOU REFLECT ON THAT? I THINK THERE IS A PIECE OF WORK THAT NEEDS TO BE DONE THERE WHEN WE GO THROUGH THE STANDING ORDERS REVIEW THAT THE PUBLIC ARE ABLE TO SUBMIT ON, THAT LOOKS AT WHAT IS THE PURPOSE OF THE SELECT COMMITTEE PROCESS. SO, FUNDAMENTALLY, IT IS SUPPOSED TO BE ABOUT HELPING LEGISLATORS WHO ARE LOOKING AT A PARTICULAR BILL CONSIDER WHAT ARE THE IMPACTS OF THAT BILL, HOW TO IMPROVE IT, WHAT MIGHT NEED TO BE CHANGED, WHAT IS THE WORDING OF THE ACTUAL STATUTE, AND WHERE IT'S MORPHED INTO, I THINK, RECENTLY, OVER THE PAST FIVE TO 10 YEARS, WITH SOME OF THE MORE HIGH-PROFILE BITS OF LEGISLATION, IS IT'S BECOME AN ADVOCACY PIECE OR A CHANCE TO HAVE A REFERENDUM OR A VOTE ON A PARTICULAR ISSUE. I DON'T THINK THAT'S HELPFUL, BECAUSE OUR SYSTEM'S SET UP TO MAKE IT A PROCESS WHERE IT HELPS LEGISLATORS FIGURE OUT HAS THIS BILL GOT GOOD THINGS IN IT, OR BAD THINGS IN IT? WHAT DO WE NEED TO CHANGE? WHAT WORDS` DOES A COMMA MAKE A DIFFERENCE HERE? ALL THAT KIND OF TECHNICAL STUFF THAT YOU DON'T SEE OUT IN THE PUBLIC. SO I THINK IT'S WORTH LOOKING AT WHETHER OR NOT, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE PRETTY OPEN ACCESS TO WHO CAN MAKE A SUBMISSION, HOW YOU MAKE IT. YOU'RE RIGHT ` YOU CAN GO ONLINE AND YOU CAN TICK A FEW BOXES AND SOMEONE WILL SEND A SUBMISSION IN ON YOUR BEHALF. NOW, WE ACTUALLY HAD TO THINK ABOUT THAT FROM A VOLUME PERSPECTIVE ` IF YOU GOT 10,000 SUBMISSIONS SAYING THE SAME THING, IS THAT AN ACTUAL SUBMISSION? IS THAT HELPFUL TO THE PROCESS? OR SHOULD WE SAY, 'WELL, ACTUALLY, THE THIRD PARTY 'THAT'S USED THAT TO COLLECT YOUR DATA AND IS JUST PASSING THEM ON ` 'THAT SHOULD BE TREATED AS ONE SUBMISSION FROM THAT THIRD PARTY, 'NOTING THAT 10,000 PEOPLE HAVE INPUTTED INTO IT.' THERE ARE DIFFICULT CONVERSATIONS TO HAVE THERE, BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE THINK THAT YOU SHOULD HAVE FREE, UNHINDERED ACCESS TO THE PROCESS. SOME PEOPLE THINK THAT YOU NEED TO BE ABLE TO PROVE THAT YOU'RE OVER 18 AND YOU'RE A NEW ZEALANDER TO BE ABLE TO MAKE A SUBMISSION, AND THOSE ARE CONTESTED IDEAS. YOU ARE THE MINISTER FOR THE SOUTH ISLAND, SO THE SOUTH ISLAND MAKES UP 23% OF THE POPULATION, 22% OF GDP, BUT AS I'M SURE YOU'RE AWARE, THERE ARE TWICE AS MANY CHRISES IN CABINET THAN THERE ARE MINISTERS FROM THE SOUTH ISLAND. WHAT DOES THAT SAY ABOUT THE REGARD YOUR GOVERNMENT HAS FOR THE PEOPLE OF THE SOUTH? WELL, OBVIOUSLY, CHRIS IS A VERY POPULAR NAME, AND I'M VERY DISAPPOINTED THAT WE SEEM TO BE TRACKING DOWNWARDS IN TERMS OF THE NUMBER OF JAMES IN PARLIAMENT. WE'VE ALREADY LOST ONE THIS TERM, AND I'M NOT HOPING THAT WE'LL LOSE ANY MORE. LOOK, I THINK WHAT IT REFLECTS IS THAT IF YOU WERE LOOKING FOR A PERFECTLY PROPORTIONAL REPRESENTATIVE PARLIAMENT, THE ONLY WAY TO GET THAT ABSOLUTELY PIN-PERFECT WOULD BE TO GO AND DO SOME SORT OF WEIGHTED-RANKING PROGRAMME` THERE'S PIN-PERFECT, LIKE, PERFECTLY REPRESENTATIVE` YEP. AND THEN THERE'S ONE SOUTH ISLAND MINISTER IN THE WHOLE OF THE CABINET. OH, IN CABINET. RIGHT, YEAH, OK. I FOLLOW YOUR POINT. THERE IS DIFFICULTIES, I GUESS, WITH THIS PARTICULAR CABINET, BECAUSE THERE ARE COALITION CONSIDERATIONS TO GO INTO, AND THERE ARE DECISIONS AROUND MAKING SURE YOU'VE GOT THE BEST PERSON FOR THE JOB. BUT ULTIMATELY, I THINK THAT YOUR CABINET SHOULD BE MADE UP OF THE BEST PEOPLE FOR THE JOB. AND WHAT I MAYBE NEED TO DO AS THE SOUTH ISLAND MINISTER IS, AS WE LEAD UP TO THE NEXT ELECTION, MAKE SURE THAT WHEN I'M OUT THERE, I'M ADVOCATING FOR AS MANY GOOD, HIGH-QUALITY SOUTH ISLAND CANDIDATES TO COME THROUGH OUR SYSTEM, TO GET INTO PARLIAMENT, TO MAKE SURE THAT WE CAN HAVE MUCH MORE OF A BROADER OFFERING TO GET MORE SOUTH ISLANDERS INTO CABINET. BUT ULTIMATELY` SO YOU'RE SAYING AT THE MOMENT, THERE ACTUALLY ISN'T` IF IT'S MERIT-BASED, KEEPING IN MIND THE COALITION CONSIDERATIONS, THERE AREN'T SOUTH ISLAND MINISTERS WHO ARE GOOD ENOUGH TO BE IN CABINET? OH, WELL, THERE ABSOLUTELY ARE, AND YOU SEE THAT THERE IS AN EXCELLENT SOUTH ISLAND MINISTER IN CABINET ` AND OF COURSE, THE PRIME MINISTER WOULD CONSIDER HIMSELF TO BE A SOUTH ISLANDER AT HEART, JUST COS HE'S BEEN LIVING ACROSS THE COOK STRAIT FOR A WHILE. I THINK HE STILL HAS HIS CRUSADERS TOP UNDERNEATH HIS JERSEY WHENEVER HE COMES TO CAUCUS. BUT LOOK ` ULTIMATELY WHAT YOU WANT OUT OF YOUR CABINET IS YOU WANT A HIGH-QUALITY CABINET, A GROUP OF MINISTERS WHO ARE FOCUSED ON DECISIONS THAT ARE THE BEST FOR THE COUNTRY. AND, TO A CERTAIN EXTENT, IT'S HELPFUL TO HAVE GEOGRAPHIC REPRESENTATION FROM ACROSS THE BOARD, BECAUSE THAT HELPS YOU IDENTIFY PARTICULAR ISSUES THAT IT MIGHT AFFECT A PARTICULAR GEOGRAPHIC REGION DIFFERENTLY ` THAT'S PART OF MY JOB, IS TO PROVIDE THAT LENS WHERE THERE'S A GOVERNMENT POLICY OR A PROJECT WHICH MIGHT HAVE A PARTICULAR IMPACT ON THE SOUTH ISLAND. I'M TO FEED IN TO MINISTERS ON THAT. BUT ACTUALLY, WE'VE GOT CLEVER ENOUGH PEOPLE TO RECOGNISE THAT THEY'RE MAKING DECISIONS ON BEHALF OF THE WHOLE COUNTRY, AND WHERE A HOUSING ISSUE, OR WHERE A HEALTH ISSUE AFFECTS DUNEDIN DIFFERENTLY TO DANNEVIRKE. THAT WILL DO THAT. AFFECTS DUNEDIN DIFFERENTLY TO DANNEVIRKE, THAT WILL DO THAT. SO WHAT'S THE POINT IN YOU? WELL, THE POINT OF ME IS TO MAKE SURE THAT` WE'VE GOT A LARGE GEOGRAPHIC AREA DOWN HERE. NOT ALL PARTS OF THE SOUTH ISLAND HAVE THE SAME ISSUES. WE'VE GOT COMMON THEMES` SEE, IT'S LIKE IN ONE BREATH, IT IS IMPORTANT TO HAVE REPRESENTATION; IN ONE BREATH, IT ISN'T. WELL, I THINK I'M NOT THERE FOR REPRESENTATION ` I THINK I'M THERE TO MAKE SURE THAT PARTICULAR ISSUES AND PERHAPS POLICIES` BUT YOU'VE JUST SAID THAT THE CABINET IS KEEPING AN EYE ON THESE DIFFERENT ISSUES AND THEY'RE ABLE TO, YOU KNOW` THEY'RE ABLE TO CONSIDER THE ISSUES THAT ARE MOST PERTINENT TO THE REGION. YEAH, AND THEY DO THEIR BEST, BUT IT IS HARD TO GET AROUND THE SOUTH ISLAND. I MEAN, I'VE SPENT THE LAST THREE MONTHS TRYING TO GET AROUND AS MUCH OF MY HOME AS POSSIBLE I SPENT THREE AND A HALF DAYS ON THE WEST COAST LAST WEEK, AND I STILL WASN'T ABLE TO TRAVERSE A FRACTION OF THE ELECTORATE. SO IT'S A` IT'S A... JUST SUBSTANTIALLY A LARGE AREA. MM. AND TO TRY AND GET MINISTERS TO BE ABLE TO GET ON THE GROUND AND TALK TO AS MANY PEOPLE AS THEY NEED TO IS HARD TO DO. SO PART OF MY JOB IS THAT I CAN BE EARS AND EYES ON THE GROUND SO THAT I CAN FEED BACK WHAT I'M HEARING FROM LOCALS ABOUT THEIR PARTICULAR ISSUES, COS THE ISSUES IN` LET'S TAKE A PLACE LIKE ROLLESTON AND LINCOLN IN THE SELWYN ELECTORATE ` PUTTING ASIDE THE WEATHER EVENTS, THE... THE SORT OF CHALLENGES AROUND GROWTH IN HOUSING IN ROLLESTON AND SELWYN AND CENTRAL OTAGO ARE DIFFERENTLY TO THE CHALLENGES THAT WE HAVE HERE IN SOUTH CANTERBURY, WHERE WE DON'T HAVE THE SAME KIND OF GROWTH. SO TO ASSUME THAT ALL THE PROBLEMS AND CHALLENGES IN THE SOUTH ISLAND ARE THE SAME WOULD BE A MISTAKE TO MAKE, SO PART OF MY JOB IS TO BE ABLE TO MAKE SURE THAT WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HOUSING POLICY, I CAN SAY TO THINGS LIKE LAND USE CHANGE, 'ACTUALLY, THAT AFFECTS THE PROVINCIAL PARTS OF THE SOUTH ISLAND 'REALLY, REALLY SIGNIFICANTLY,' AND IT'S SOMETHING THAT WE NEED TO BE CAUTIOUS ABOUT WHEN WE'RE MAKING CHANGES, AND SOMETHING THAT MIGHT NOT HAVE BEEN BROUGHT TO THE ATTENTION OF MINISTERS BECAUSE THEY PHYSICALLY CAN'T GET THERE. OK, YOU GOT NO DEPARTMENT, YOU GOT NO BUDGET. LAST I CHECKED, WRITTEN QUESTIONS, NO KPIs, NO SEAT AT THE CABINET TABLE. CAN YOU GIVE US A SPECIFIC EXAMPLE, THOUGH, OF A CABINET COLLEAGUE'S DECISION THAT YOU HAVE INFLUENCED SINCE BEING APPOINTED TO THE JOB? NOT YET, BECAUSE THE PARTICULAR DECISIONS I'M THINKING ABOUT HAVEN'T QUITE YET BEEN MADE OR RELEASED, BUT HERE ARE SOME EXAMPLES OF THINGS THAT I CAN THINK OF. YOU'VE GOT TOURISM AS A MAJOR CONTRIBUTOR TO OUR ECONOMY DOWN HERE IN THE SOUTH ISLAND. THERE ARE SOME CHALLENGES AROUND THE CRUISE INDUSTRY, AND SO ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I'VE BEEN WORKING ON WITH TOURISM MINISTER LOUISE UPSTON IS HOW CAN WE ENCOURAGE MORE CRUISE SHIPS INTO THE SOUTH ISLAND? AND THERE ARE ISSUES THERE AROUND SURETY OF ACCESS. THERE ARE ISSUES AROUND FEES, THERE ARE ISSUES AROUND PORT ACCESS, AND THERE ARE ISSUES AROUND PARTICULARLY BIOFOULING. AND SO PART OF WHAT I'VE BEEN DOING IS WORKING WITH MINISTERS UPSTON AND POTAKA AROUND HOW DO WE MAKE SURE THAT THE SOUTH ISLAND BENEFITS FROM TOURISM. SO THAT COULD BE ONE EXAMPLE I CAN THINK OF, AND I'LL ADDRESS YOUR` THE ISSUE OF NOT HAVING A DEPARTMENT. I ACTUALLY DON'T THINK YOU NEED A LARGE BUREAUCRACY OR A DEPARTMENT TO BE ABLE TO MAKE SIGNIFICANT CHANGE IN ADVOCACY IN THIS SPACE. I THINK THAT I'M... YOU KNOW, I HONESTLY THINK THAT I'VE GOT ENOUGH INFLUENCE AND ENOUGH OF AN UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT OUR ISSUES ARE HERE, TO BE ABLE TO TALK DIRECTLY TO MINISTERS AND THEIR PORTFOLIOS ABOUT WHAT WE NEED DOWN HERE. SO THEN DID YOU, UM... DID YOU CONSULT SIMEON BROWN BEFORE HE RELEASED THE HEALTH INFO PLAN ON DUNEDIN HOSPITAL? DIDN'T CONSULT HIM ON THAT PARTICULAR PLAN` I MEAN, THAT'S A GIANT THING FOR THE SOUTH ISLAND, RIGHT? LIKE, MORE THAN CRUISE SHIPS, YOU` ARGUABLY, THE DUNEDIN HOSPITAL ISSUE IS OF FAR GREATER CONCERN TO MORE OF THE CONSTITUENTS IN THE SOUTH. YES, SO DIDN'T CONSULT WITH THEM ON THE RELEASE OF THAT PLAN, BUT TALK REGULARLY WITH SIMEON AND HIS OFFICE ABOUT THE HEALTH INFRASTRUCTURE NEEDS DOWN HERE IN THE SOUTH ISLAND, SO, IN PARTICULAR AROUND DUNEDIN, AND I'M AWARE OF THE ONGOING ISSUES AROUND ACCESS TO, SAY, MATERNITY CARE IN CENTRAL OTAGO. OPERATING THEATRES HERE IN TIMARU, THE STATE OF THE REBUILD PROJECT UP IN NELSON, SO... AM IN REGULAR CONTACT WITH MINISTER BROWN ON THAT SITUATION. BUT AGAIN` SO` ...LOOK AT THE OUTCOME OF THE PLAN. AND YOU CAN SEE SIGNIFICANT INVESTMENTS IN THERE ON THE SOUTH ISLAND, ON THAT PLAN. AND` IT'S JUST THE INFLUENCE THAT YOU ARE OR ARE NOT ABLE TO HAVE` YEAH. ...IN THIS ROLE SITTING OUTSIDE OF CABINET, RIGHT? SO HE MADE THAT ANNOUNCEMENT IN FEBRUARY ` HE LEFT OFF INFORMATION AT THE TIME ABOUT REDUCING THE NUMBER OF INTENSIVE CARE BEDS THAT WILL BE ESTABLISHED ON DAY ONE OF THE HOSPITAL'S, UM... ESTABLISHMENT. I MEAN, DID YOU HAVE A SAY IN THAT? IN FEBRUARY? DID YOU HAVE A SAY IN THE NUMBER OF ICU BEDS IN DUNEDIN HOSPITAL, FOR EXAMPLE? NO, I THINK I'D BEEN A MINISTER FOR ABOUT SEVEN DAYS AT THAT POINT, AND THEN THE ANNOUNCEMENT WAS MADE A COUPLE OF WEEKS LATER. NONETHELESS, I MEAN, THIS IS SURELY, GIVEN THE IMPORTANCE OF THAT ISSUE TO THE SOUTH, AS THE MINISTER FOR THE SOUTH ISLAND, YOU WOULD EXPECT TO HAVE SOME SAY OR CONSULTATION OVER SOMETHING LIKE THAT? YEAH, BUT I'M COMFORTABLE WITH WHERE WE SIT WITH THE DUNEDIN HOSPITAL ANNOUNCEMENT, BECAUSE WE'VE PUT THE INVESTMENT INTO THE REBUILD ` ON DAY ONE, IT'LL GO FROM 16, WHICH IS AT THE MOMENT, TO 20, ON DAY ONE IN OPENING, WITH CAPACITY TO GO TO 30 PRETTY QUICKLY, AND THEN CAPACITY, AGAIN, AS DEMAND REQUIRES, TO GO TO 40. BUT THAT'S` SORRY, THE QUESTION'S NOT WHETHER OR NOT YOU'RE COMFORTABLE ` THE QUESTION OR NOT IS WHETHER OR NOT YOU'RE CONSULTED, LIKE, WHETHER OR NOT YOU ACTUALLY ARE ABLE TO EXERT INFLUENCE THROUGH THIS ROLE, RIGHT? WHICH IS WHAT I'M JUST TRYING` YEAH. YEAH. ...TRYING TO NUT DOWN. AND SO IF YOU'RE NOT CONSULTED AT ALL BEFORE THOSE ANNOUNCEMENTS ARE MADE, I MEAN, IT'S ALL WELL AND GOOD TO SAY THAT YOU'RE HAPPY WITH THEM AFTERWARDS, BUT THE POINT IS THAT YOU DIDN'T HAVE INFLUENCE AT THE TIME OF DECISION-MAKING. YEAH, AND I AM CONSULTED ON SIGNIFICANT ANNOUNCEMENTS FOR THE SOUTH ISLAND, AND POLICY AREAS FOR THE SOUTH ISLAND ` SO, INFRASTRUCTURE PROJECTS, OR ONE OF THOSE ONES WE'RE WORKING ON AT THE MOMENT. FOR THAT PARTICULAR ROUND AROUND THE DUNEDIN HOSPITAL, I THINK WE'VE GOT TO BE A LITTLE BIT CAUTIOUS ABOUT` YOU KNOW, I WAS SWORN IN ON THE 24TH OF JANUARY, AND I THINK THAT ANNOUNCEMENT WAS MADE TWO WEEKS LATER. SO IN TERMS OF THERE BEING LITERALLY TIME TO COME ALONG AND RUSH ALONG TO ME AND SAY, 'WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THIS PROPOSAL?' I THINK MAYBE WE CAN GET A BIT OF A PASS MARK FOR NOT HAVING... HAVING NIGHT-LONG MEETINGS FOR THAT ONE. BUT LOOK, IN GENERAL, THE EXPECTATION FROM THE PRIME MINISTER'S PRETTY CLEAR. SO MY JOB IS TO BE PROACTIVE ABOUT REACHING OUT TO OTHER MINISTERS AND ABOUT A) OFFERING MY SUPPORT DOWN HERE IN THE SOUTH ISLAND, BUT BE EXPECTING TO HAVE SOME INPUT INTO DECISIONS THAT ARE SIGNIFICANT. NOW, THAT WILL TAKE TIME, AND THE CHALLENGE IS THAT THAT COULD MEAN MY PORTFOLIO IS AS BROAD AS I COULD MAKE IT. I COULD DIP MY TOE INTO EVERY SINGLE PORTFOLIO AND ASK TO BE CONSULTED ON EVERYTHING. THAT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. IT'S NOT GOING TO BE HELPFUL, BECAUSE THERE'S JUST NO TIME TO BE ABLE TO DO THAT. SO I'VE GOT TO THINK ABOUT WHAT ARE THE REALLY KEY THINGS FOR ME AS MINISTER FOR THE SOUTH ISLAND THAT I WANT TO FOCUS ON. AND THE NUMBER-ONE THING IS HELPING NICOLA WILLIS DO HER JOB AROUND ECONOMIC GROWTH ` SO, WHAT CAN I DO TO HELP ENCOURAGE PROJECTS AND POLICIES THAT ENCOURAGE GROWTH IN THE SOUTH ISLAND? IT'S ABOUT MAKING SURE THAT WE'VE GOT GOOD TRANSPORT AND LOGISTICS CONNECTIONS, AND YOU'VE SEEN THAT A FEW DAYS AGO WHEN YOU CAME DOWN, AND YOU WOULD HAVE SEEN THE STATE OF THE STATE HIGHWAYS, AND SOME OF THE RISKS AROUND NOT BEING CONNECTED AND GETTING TO PLACES THERE. AND THEN, OF COURSE, DELIVERY OF HIGH-QUALITY PUBLIC SERVICES ` AND THAT'S WHERE I THINK THAT EDUCATION AND HEALTH PIECE COMES IN. SO YOU'RE THE MINISTER FOR YOUTH ` LAST YEAR, MORE NEW ZEALANDERS LEFT THIS COUNTRY THAN ANY YEAR IN RECORDED HISTORY. MM. I THINK ALMOST THREE-QUARTERS WERE UNDER THE AGE OF 35, AND IT FOLLOWED A SIMILARLY HUGE EXODUS THE YEAR BEFORE. WHY DO SO MANY YOUNG NEW ZEALANDERS WANT TO LEAVE, DO YOU THINK? THERE'S A COUPLE OF THINGS IN THAT SPACE, I THINK, THAT ARE IMPORTANT TO ACKNOWLEDGE ` THAT'S THAT YOUNG PEOPLE HAVE ALWAYS WANTED TO GO AND TRAVEL AND EXPLORE, AND ACTUALLY, I COME FROM THE SPACE WHERE I THINK THAT IF YOU'RE A HIGH-SCHOOLER LEAVING SCHOOL AND YOU'RE A LITTLE BIT INDETERMINED ABOUT WHAT YOU WANT TO DO, IT'S ACTUALLY OK TO GO AND DO A GAP YEAR. THAT MEANS YOU GET A YEAR TO GROW UP, YOU GET A YEAR TO HAVE A CHANCE TO EXPLORE THE WORLD. IT MIGHT MEAN YOU GO TO TRADES TRAINING OR A UNIVERSITY BETTER PREPARED. SO I THINK THERE HAS ALWAYS BEEN A NATURAL FLOW` YEAH. ...OF PEOPLE WANTING TO, YOU KNOW, LEAVE THE NEST AND EXPLORE. THE SECOND PART IS THAT I THINK COVID CONFINED A WHOLE GENERATION, ALMOST, INTO THEIR HOMES AND INTO THEIR COUNTRY, AND SO YOU HAVE THAT ITCH TO BE ABLE TO GO AND EXPLORE QUICKLY, SO WE'RE SEEING COHORTS LEAVE IN LARGER NUMBERS THAN MAYBE WHAT WE WOULD HAVE SEEN IN THE PAST. BUT THEN, OF COURSE, THE OTHER CHALLENGE IS THAT IT'S BEEN TOUGH ECONOMICALLY OVER THE PAST FEW YEARS. AND IT'S UNDERSTANDABLE THAT IF YOUNG PEOPLE WHO ARE AMBITIOUS AND WANT TO GET AHEAD, THEY'LL LOOK FOR OPPORTUNITIES TO DO THAT. SO WE'VE GOT TO MAKE SURE THAT WE MAKE THIS A COUNTRY THAT IS SO APPEALING AND SO APPETISING THAT IF THEY DO GO OFFSHORE FOR A WHILE, THEY WANT TO COME BACK, AND THEY KNOW THAT THERE ARE JOBS AND PLACES TO RAISE THEIR KIDS, COS ULTIMATELY THEY WANT TO BE HERE, THEY'RE NEW ZEALANDERS, THEY WANT TO RAISE THEIR FAMILY HERE, AND WE'VE GOT TO MAKE SURE THERE ARE THE JOBS AND INCOMES TO BE ABLE TO DO THAT. ARE THERE SPECIFIC POLICIES? I KNOW IT'S ALL WELL AND GOOD TO SAY 'OH, ECONOMIC GROWTH, ECONOMIC GROWTH,' BUT, I MEAN, NAME ME THE LAST TIME NEW ZEALAND HAD` WAS IN A STRONGER ECONOMIC POSITION OR HAD HIGHER WAGES THAN AUSTRALIA. ARE THERE SPECIFIC POLICIES THAT YOU THINK SHOULD BE PRIORITISED IN TRYING TO BRING SOME OF THOSE PEOPLE BACK? YEAH, I THINK WE CAN LOOK AT WHAT AUSTRALIA DOES WITH THEIR NATURAL RESOURCES AND LOOK TO SEE HOW WE CAN MOVE AT A SIMILAR PACE AS WHAT THEY DO. ULTIMATELY, THEY ARE A WEALTHY COUNTRY, AND THEY ARE A MUCH WEALTHIER COUNTRY THAN US, SO TRYING TO COMPETE WITH THEM ON PRICE IS ALWAYS GOING TO BE DIFFICULT. BUT WE CAN COMPETE ON LIFESTYLE AND THE FACT THAT WE ARE A WONDERFUL PLACE TO LIVE. SO THERE ARE THINGS WE CAN DO IN THAT MINERAL SECTOR, AND I KNOW THE WORK OF SHANE JONES WORKING ON THE WEST COAST, HAVING BEEN THERE LAST WEEK, THE ABSOLUTE APPETITE TO BE ABLE TO USE THE RESOURCES THAT WE HAVE IN A SENSIBLE AND SUSTAINABLE WAY IS GOOD. THAT WILL CREATE JOBS ` SO, FAST-TRACK PROCESSES, RMA REFORM, BEING ABLE TO GET THOSE PROJECTS UP AND RUNNING WILL BE GOOD. THERE ARE THINGS WE CAN DO IN THE HEALTH WORKFORCE SPACE IN TERMS OF` AND TEACHING AS WELL, ACTUALLY, TO MAKE THE COSTS OF BEING IN THOSE PROFESSIONS LOWER, AND MAKE IT MORE ATTRACTIVE FOR YOUNG PEOPLE TO STAY HERE IN THE FIRST INSTANCE. IF YOU WANT TO TRAIN NURSES, WE'VE GOT A BRILLIANT PLACE TO TRAIN NURSES HERE IN TIMARU, AT ARA. BUT, YOU KNOW, IF YOU'RE WANTING TO ENTER THE NURSING WORKFORCE IN YOUR MID-20s OR LATE 20s AND YOU'VE ALREADY GOT A FAMILY, HAVING TO TRAVEL TO DO THAT, AND THE UPFRONT COSTS OF DOING THAT ARE HARD. SO IF WE CAN BOND PEOPLE, AND SAY THAT IF YOU STAY, AND YOU CONTINUE TO WORK IN RURAL SECTORS, YOU GET SOME OF YOUR LOAN PAID OFF ` THAT'LL BE SOME POLICIES THAT MIGHT HELP THERE AS WELL. MM. AND OF COURSE, YOU HAD, UM... LAST WEEK MINISTER BROWN ANNOUNCED MORE RURAL MEDICINE TRAINING PLACES, AND WE'VE GOT A GREAT FACILITY ON THE WEST COAST IN GREYMOUTH, WITH GREY HOSPITAL. BUT WE ALSO DO RURAL MEDICAL TRAINING IN ASHBURTON TOO. AND THEY'RE THE KIND OF THINGS ` YOU TRAIN YOUR OWN, YOU MAKE SURE YOU'VE GOT HOME-GROWN DOCTORS AND NURSES. THEY'RE MORE LIKELY TO STAY HOME; THEY'RE MORE LIKELY TO WORK IN THOSE AREAS WHERE THEY COME FROM. I'M NOT GOING TO ASK YOU IF YOU WANT TO BE PRIME MINISTER, BUT I WILL ASK YOU... (CHUCKLES) ...IF OTHER PEOPLE ASK YOU IF YOU WANT TO BE PRIME MINISTER. NOT REALLY. NO. NO, IT'S... IT'S` COME ON! NO, WELL` (LAUGHS) REALLY? IT MIGHT SURPRISE YOU TO KNOW THAT NOT THAT MANY THINK` NOT MANY PEOPLE THINK THAT HIGHLY OF ME. IS THERE A`? LOOK, I'M VERY` I'M VERY PROUD OF BEING THE MP HERE, AND YOU'VE PROBABLY SEEN IT TODAY, HAVING WALKED AROUND. IT'S A GREAT PLACE TO LIVE AND TO REPRESENT. AND I'M VERY, VERY FORTUNATE TO ALSO BE A MINISTER, WHICH ACTUALLY MEANS I CAN DOUBLE-DIP AS WELL, BECAUSE YOU'RE THE MINISTER FOR THE SOUTH ISLAND, SO EVERY TIME YOU'RE AT HOME, YOU'RE DOING YOUR MINISTERIAL WORK, SO THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS A HOLIDAY. IS THERE ANOTHER PORTFOLIO OR ANY SPECIFIC AREA OF PUBLIC POLICY THAT REALLY INTERESTS YOU? WELL, I'M REALLY INTERESTED IN EDUCATION, AND I MENTIONED IN MY MAIDEN SPEECH THE IMPORTANCE OF IT, AND HOW THE FACT THAT I DON'T THINK I'D BE HERE WITHOUT A QUALITY EDUCATION. AND SO I TRY AND MAINTAIN A REALLY GOOD RELATIONSHIP WITH ERICA STANFORD, AND BASICALLY SAY, 'WHAT CAN I DO TO HELP YOU DELIVER GOOD EDUCATION FOR US 'HERE IN SOUTH CANTERBURY AND AROUND THE SOUTH ISLAND?' I THINK THAT'S THE GREAT LEVELLER ` THAT'S THE BIG GAME-CHANGER. SO IF I COULD EVER ASSIST MINISTER STANFORD WITH ANYTHING SHE'S DOING, THAT'D BE BRILLIANT. I MEAN, I THINK THAT'S REALLY WHERE YOU MAKE THE BIG DIFFERENCE. THAT'S JAMES MEAGER. A MASSIVE THANKS TO THE TEAM AT SOUTH CANTERBURY'S CHAMBER OF COMMERCE FOR LETTING US BARGE IN AND TAKE OVER THEIR OFFICE. ALSO, SO YOU KNOW, THERE'S MORE OF OUR CONVERSATION, INCLUDING THE MINISTER'S THOUGHTS ON SOCIAL MEDIA REGULATION AND THE VOTING AGE ON OUR YOUTUBE PAGE. AFTER THE BREAK ` 80 YEARS SINCE VICTORY IN EUROPE ` THE EXTRAORDINARY IMAGES THAT DEFINED VE DAY. THE EXTRAORDINARY IMAGES THAT DEFINED V.E DAY. THIS THURSDAY MARKS EXACTLY 80 YEARS SINCE BRITAIN, THE U.S., AND ITS ALLIES CELEBRATED VICTORY IN EUROPE IN THE SECOND WORLD WAR. HERE, WHENA OWEN CONSIDERS HOW PEOPLE ARE REFLECTING ON PEACE IN THE MODERN WORLD OF INSTABILITY. ARCHIVE: THOUSANDS ARE POURING INTO THE CITY, JUST AS THEY'RE POURING INTO COUNTLESS TOWNS AND CITIES ACROSS A WORLD THAT IS TURNING FROM DARKNESS INTO LIGHT. THIS IS V.E. DAY, 9TH OF MAY 1945 ` WELL, THE OFFICIAL ONE. THE NEWS HAD ALREADY GOT OUT HERE THE DAY BEFORE. WE'RE ON QUEEN STREET, WHERE A V.E. CROWD HAD AMASSED 80 YEARS AGO, WITH HISTORIAN DR STEPHEN CLARKE. EVERYBODY KNEW BY TUESDAY MORNING, THE 8TH OF MAY... THE WAR WAS OVER. ...THE WAR WAS OVER, AND THEY WANTED TO CELEBRATE. THE ACTING PRIME MINISTER, WALTER NASH, DIDN'T WANT TO GO BEFORE WINSTON CHURCHILL HAD OFFICIALLY DONE IT IN LONDON. PUBLIC SERVANTS IN WELLINGTON DIDN'T WAIT. THERE WAS THE PAPER STORM OVER LAMBTON QUAY. THIS WAS GOVERNMENT SERVANTS RIPPING UP RECORDS AND THROWING THEM OUT THE WINDOWS. AUCKLANDERS FLOCKED TO THE CITY CENTRE. THERE ARE ACCOUNTS FROM MOVIEGOERS ON THE DAY HERE AT THE CIVIC. THE MANAGER STOPS THE FILM, GETS UP ON STAGE AND SAYS, 'I HAVE AN ANNOUNCEMENT ` THE WAR IS OVER.' IMMEDIATELY, THE THEATRE EMPTIED, AND PEOPLE SPILLED OUT ON TO THE STREET TO JOIN THE THOUSANDS OF OTHER AUCKLANDERS. THEN, FOLLOWING ON FROM LONDON, THE OFFICIAL NEW ZEALAND PROCLAMATION. THE UNCONDITIONAL SURRENDER OF GERMANY IS NOW ACHIEVED, AND THE WAR IN EUROPE HAS ENDED. (CHEERING) (GENTLE, CONTEMPLATIVE PIANO MUSIC) THE SINGING, THE DANCING, THAT WAS, YOU KNOW` THAT WAS THE PUBLIC CELEBRATION, YOU KNOW, THE RELEASE OF THAT TENSION OF THE WAR, BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, ALMOST 12,000 FAMILIES IN NEW ZEALAND HAD LOST A SERVICEMAN OR WOMAN OVERSEAS. YOU KNOW, THERE WAS STILL THE GRIEF. THEY WEREN'T COMING HOME. IT'S OFTEN SOMETHING WE FORGET ABOUT WHAT THE END OF THE WAR MUST HAVE FELT LIKE IN THOSE HOMES. IT WASN'T ENTIRELY OVER. THE WAR IN THE PACIFIC HAD ANOTHER THREE MONTHS TO RUN, BUT IT WAS V.E. DAY, AND THE SUBSEQUENT MARKING OF IT, THAT HELD THE SYMBOLISM. POLITICAL HISTORIAN DR MALCOLM MCKINNON. IT HAD REINFORCED THE VALUES THAT PEOPLE BELIEVED THAT THE WAR WAS ABOUT ` ON THE NEW ZEALAND SIDE ` AND SO PEOPLE WANTED TO REMEMBER THAT AND TO ACKNOWLEDGE IT AND TO FEEL THAT THE WORLD THAT WOULD BE CREATED IN THE WAKE OF THE WAR WOULD BE A BETTER WORLD. THAT POST-WAR OPTIMISM WAS SHAKEN BY TENSIONS BETWEEN SOME OF OUR ALLIES IN WAR, THE U.S. AND THE SOVIET UNION. THEY FELL OUT, AND WE HAD THE COLD WAR. SO THE PROMISE OF A PEACEFUL WORLD ORDER THAT PEOPLE HAD HOPED FOR WAS NOT REALISED IN THE WAY THAT PEOPLE PERHAPS HOPED FOR IN 1945. ARCHIVE: DO YOU FEEL, THEN, THAT BRITAIN, BY CHANGING DIRECTION NOW IS SELLING YOU SHORT, IS NOT SORT OF STANDING BY YOU AS IT SHOULD? IT ALMOST AMOUNTS TO A BETRAYAL. # COME WRITERS AND CRITICS WHO PROPHESISE WITH YOUR PEN. # IN 2025, THERE ARE COMMENTATORS WHO INSIST WE'RE IN THE MIDST OF THE MOST GEOPOLITICALLY FRAUGHT TIME SINCE THE END OF WORLD WAR II. I GUESS, BEING AN HISTORIAN, YOU CAN'T HELP BUT THINK ABOUT OTHER MASSIVE GEOPOLITICAL SHIFTS. SO I DON'T BUY THAT THIS IS A UNIQUELY, UH, UNSTABLE MOMENT. (BAGPIPES SKIRL) V.E. DAY WILL BE MARKED NEXT WEEK IN BRITAIN, BUT NOT ON THE SCALE OF RUSSIA'S COMMEMORATIONS, PUTIN ANNOUNCING A 72-HOUR CEASEFIRE TO ROLL OUT THE VICTORY DAY. (SOLDIERS SHOUT IN UNISON) (MILITARY FANFARE BAND PLAYS) FOR RUSSIA'S PRESENT LEADER, PUTIN, IT'S BEEN A WAY OF ENSURING A PARTICULAR VISION OF CONTEMPORARY RUSSIA, WHICH LINKS IT TO WHAT IS SEEN IN RUSSIA AS ITS GREAT HEROIC` ONE OF ITS GREAT HEROIC PERIODS. LOOK AT THIS. TWO DIFFERENT NAMES... OH. ...AND PROBABLY, YOU KNOW, ALMOST INEVITABLY THE SAME THING. ANOTHER COUPLE. AT RIVERHEAD'S WAR MEMORIAL, MINISTER CHRIS PENK IS POINTING OUT THE NAMES OF MEN IN HIS ELECTORATE WHO DIDN'T RETURN FROM WAR. AS MINISTER FOR VETERANS, HE'S SET ON BRINGING OUR COMMEMORATIONS INTO THE 21ST CENTURY AND ALSO HIGHLIGHTING THE SERVICE OF VETERANS OF MORE RECENT CONFLICTS AND THOSE OF OTHER NATIONS WHO FOUGHT ALONGSIDE US. HE'S AMENDING LEGISLATION TO SUPPORT THAT. IT'S NOT ABOUT GLORIFYING, BUT TO REALISE, UNDERSTAND AND ACKNOWLEDGE SO THAT, GOD FORBID, IF WE END UP IN THAT SITUATION AGAIN, WE CAN DO ALL THAT WE CAN TO AVOID THAT KIND OF CONFLICT AGAIN. SO THEY OBVIOUSLY FOUGHT TO COME INTO THE CENTRE TO CELEBRATE. BACK IN QUEEN STREET, DR STEPHEN CLARKE IS PAYING TRIBUTE TO WHAT HE DESCRIBES AS THE GREATEST GENERATION. FOR A FEW DECADES, HE ACCOMPANIED MANY WORLD WAR II VETERANS TO VARIOUS COMMEMORATIONS. VERY SOON THEY WILL ALL BE GONE. THAT WORLD WAR II GENERATION, THEY GREW UP IN THE SHADOW OF THE FIRST WORLD WAR. THEY WENT THROUGH A GREAT DEPRESSION, AND THEN THEY WERE ASKED TO SERVE, IN SOME CASES, FOR MANY YEARS. AT HEART, THEY'RE A RESILIENT GENERATION, BUT THEY HAD A GOOD SENSE OF HUMOUR. AND, YOU KNOW, THEY CALLED A SPADE A SPADE, AND YOU HAD TO LOVE THEM FOR IT. WHENA OWEN REPORTING. Q+A'S BACK AFTER THE BREAK. CAN ALL NEW ZEALANDERS ACCESS THE RIGHT CARE TO DIE WITH DIGNITY? THIS WEEK'S FEATURED MEMBER'S BILL IS SPONSORED BY NEW ZEALAND FIRST MP TANYA UNKOVICH, AND AIMS TO INCREASE ACCESS TO PALLIATIVE CARE. (DETERMINED GUITAR MUSIC) HI THERE, MY NAME IS TANYA UNKOVICH. I'M A NEW ZEALAND FIRST LIST MP, AND THE TITLE OF MY MEMBERS' BILL IS IMPROVING ACCESS TO PALLIATIVE CARE. (GUITAR MUSIC CONTINUES) WHAT MY BILL WILL DO IS PROVIDE EQUITABLE, HIGH-STANDARD PALLIATIVE CARE FOR ALL NEW ZEALANDERS ` PEOPLE WHO WANT TO DIE WITH DIGNITY. WHAT I WOULD LIKE IS FOR THE MINISTRY OF HEALTH AND THE MINISTER OF HEALTH TO CREATE A PALLIATIVE CARE STRATEGY ` ONE THAT IS DOCUMENTED, BUT NOT ONLY DOCUMENTED, BUT ALSO FOR THEM TO BE ACCOUNTABLE. WELL, GRIEF IS A TOPIC THAT'S VERY DEAR TO MY HEART, AND I'VE HAD THE EXPERIENCE OF THE LOSS OF MY LATE HUSBAND, BOTH OF MY PARENTS, AND I KNOW THE IMPORTANCE OF DYING WELL. I KNOW THE IMPORTANCE OF DYING WITH DIGNITY, WITHOUT FEAR, WITHOUT SUFFERING, BUT ALSO FOR THE FAMILY LEFT BEHIND, FOR FAMILY TO BE ABLE TO BE BESIDE THEIR LOVED ONES DURING THE END STAGE OF THEIR LIFE. IT REALLY DOES HELP WITH THE GRIEVING PROCESS. (GUITAR MUSIC CONTINUES) MANY HOSPICES REALLY ARE IN THE RED ZONE, THEY'RE TELLING ME, BECAUSE OF THE LACK OF FUNDING, AND ALSO, THEY HAVE TO GO OUT AND FUNDRAISE. SO THEIR HOSPICE SHOPS DO PROVIDE A LOT, BUT BECAUSE OF THE COST OF LIVING, PEOPLE AREN'T SPENDING AS MUCH, SO THE HOSPICE SHOPS ARE STRUGGLING AS WELL. SO, CLEARLY, THERE IS A FUNDING ISSUE. (GUITAR MUSIC CONTINUES) IN A PERFECT WORLD, I WOULD LOVE TO SEE PALLIATIVE CARE TO BE FREE FOR ALL PATIENTS. I BELIEVE IN AUSTRALIA, IT IS. THEIR MODEL IS A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENT TO OURS THAT WE HAVE HERE, BUT HERE IN NEW ZEALAND, HOSPICE NEED TO GO OUT AND FUNDRAISE ABOUT 35%, WHICH IS A LOT, AND THEY ARE STRUGGLING. SO, BECAUSE PALLIATIVE CARE IS SOMETHING THAT AT LEAST 30% OF US ARE GOING TO NEED ONE DAY, I BELIEVE WE NEED TO GIVE IT MORE ATTENTION. AFTER ALL, WHAT WILL THE COST BE FOR US AS A SOCIETY BY NOT PUTTING MORE MONEY INTO PALLIATIVE CARE? THAT'S NZ FIRST MP TANYA UNKOVICH. HEI AKUANEI ` WE'RE BACK AFTER THE BREAK. KUA MUTU. THAT'S Q+A FOR THIS WEEK. FROM THE Q+A TEAM, THANKS FOR WATCHING, AND FOR YOUR FEEDBACK. HEI TERA WIKI ` SEE YOU NEXT SUNDAY AT 9am. CAPTIONS BY TOM CLARKE AND LENA ERAKOVICH. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ COPYRIGHT ABLE 2025