CAPTIONS BY LENA ERAKOVICH AND JASON CONRAN. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ COPYRIGHT ABLE 2025 TENA KOUTOU, NAU MAI, HAERE MAI. WELCOME TO Q+A. I'M JACK TAME. TODAY ` NO SELECT COMMITTEE, NO IMPACT STATEMENT, NO WARNING. HAS THE USE OF URGENCY IN PARLIAMENT GONE TOO FAR? PLUS ` THE MEMBER'S BILL WHICH A GREEN MP SAYS WILL MAKE LIFE FAIRER FOR NEW ZEALAND FARMERS. BUT WE WANT TO START THIS MORNING WITH AN IMAGE THAT UNDERSCORES AN EXTRAORDINARY PROBLEM IN COMMUNITIES ACROSS THE COUNTRY. HAVE A LOOK AT THIS. THESE ARE THE LATEST WASTEWATER DRUG TESTING RESULTS FROM ACROSS NEW ZEALAND. LOOK AT THE LINE FOR METHAMPHETAMINE USE. IN THE SECOND HALF OF 2024, METH CONSUMPTION INCREASED TO THE HIGHEST LEVELS EVER RECORDED, A 96% INCREASE ON THE YEAR BEFORE. OF COURSE, THE GOVERNMENT WAS ELECTED IN PART ON A PROMISE TO BE TOUGHER ON LAW AND ORDER, AND IN NOVEMBER, IT APPOINTED RICHARD CHAMBERS AS THE NEW POLICE COMMISSIONER. WE SAT DOWN THIS WEEK, AND I BEGAN BY ASKING WHY THERE'S BEEN SUCH A BIG INCREASE IN METHAMPHETAMINE USE. IT'S VERY CONCERNING, JACK. THERE'S NO DOUBT THAT SORT OF INCREASE PRESENTS A REAL THREAT TO COMMUNITIES ACROSS NEW ZEALAND. THE POLICE HAVE GOT A CRITICAL ROLE IN ADDRESSING THAT, AND SO TOO, HAVE A NUMBER OF AGENCIES SUCH AS HEALTH. YOU KNOW, I WANT TO ENSURE THAT MY ORGANISATION FOCUSES ON THOSE THAT SIT IN BEHIND THE ORGANISED CRIME THAT IS SO FREQUENTLY FOUND WHEN IT COMES TO THE IMPORTATION OF THINGS LIKE ILLICIT DRUGS. SO WE WORK CLOSELY WITH OTHER AGENCIES SUCH AS CUSTOMS, AND WE'RE ALL WORKING VERY, VERY HARD TO ADDRESS THAT BECAUSE OF THE HARM THAT IT DOES ` NOT JUST TO INDIVIDUALS, BUT TO FAMILIES AND COMMUNITIES. MM. IT'S NOT JUST A LITTLE SPIKE, THOUGH ` I MEAN, IT'S ALMOST DOUBLED IN THE SPACE OF A YEAR. SO I JUST WANT TO UNDERSTAND ` WHY HAS IT DOUBLED? IT IS A BIG INCREASE, JACK. I MEAN, UH... NEW ZEALAND, LIKE AUSTRALIA, IS A VERY LUCRATIVE MARKET, SO ORGANISED CRIMINALS WILL WORK VERY HARD TO EXPLOIT THAT. AND THAT IS WHY THIS PARTICULAR PROBLEM, WHEN IT INVOLVES ORGANISED CRIMINAL GROUPS ` AND THIS PROBLEM DOES` MM. ...WE MUST WORK CLOSELY ALSO WITH OUR INTERNATIONAL PARTNERS TO ADDRESS SUPPLY CHAINS. I'VE ALWAYS LOOKED AT ORGANISED CRIME AND THINGS LIKE METHAMPHETAMINE AS, UM... AS MUCH ABOUT A DEMAND ISSUE AS IT IS SUPPLY, BECAUSE THOSE THAT FIND THEMSELVES WITH AN ADDICTION HAVE GOT A PROBLEM, AND NEED THE SUPPORT OF OTHER AGENCIES SUCH AS HEALTH. SO THAT'S ON THE DEMAND SIDE. IF WE CAN ADDRESS THAT, IT'S AS IMPORTANT AS IT IS ADDRESSING THE SUPPLY CHAIN AND THOSE THAT CHOOSE TO EXPLOIT OUR COUNTRY, AS` BECAUSE IT'S A LUCRATIVE MARKET. IT WAS CLEAR FROM THE WASTEWATER TESTING, BOTH SUPPLY AND DEMAND HAVE INCREASED OVER THAT 12-MONTH PERIOD. SO WHERE DO YOU THINK THE METH PRIMARILY IS COMING FROM? LOOK, UH... GIVEN THAT IN TERMS OF LABS BEING FOUND IN NEW ZEALAND, WE HAVE NOT SEEN THE SAME INCREASE. THAT SUGGESTS TO ME IT'S COMING IN FROM OFFSHORE, AND ORGANISED CRIME IS A TRANSNATIONAL PROBLEM. MM. AND, YOU KNOW, THE COMMODITY HERE IS METHAMPHETAMINE. THAT CAN` IS COMING ACROSS, WE BELIEVE, OF COURSE, FROM SOUTH AMERICA, PARTS OF SOUTHEAST ASIA, UM... BUT THAT'S THE COMMODITY, UH... THAT THIS` THESE ORGANISED CRIME GROUPS CHOOSE TO USE, BUT ORGANISED CRIME'S MORE THAN JUST ABOUT METHAMPHETAMINE. AND AS WE DO OUR WORK WITH CUSTOMS AND OTHER ORGANISATIONS, WE'RE VERY CONSCIOUS THAT, UH... WHEN YOU SEE A SPIKE IN SOMETHING LIKE METHAMPHETAMINE, WHERE THEY'RE EXPLOITING THE DEMAND AND THE ADDICTION SIDE, WE'VE ALSO GOT TO BE MINDFUL OF SIMILAR THREATS AROUND THINGS LIKE COCAINE, MDMA ` YOU KNOW, WE'VE GOT TO MAKE SURE WE DON'T TAKE OUR EYE OFF THE BALL OF MANY OTHER THREATS, BECAUSE NEW ZEALAND IN SO MANY RESPECTS IS A LUCRATIVE MARKET. YEAH, NO ONE WOULD BE DISPUTING THAT ` AND CERTAINLY, WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE PRICE OF THOSE ILLICIT DRUGS IN NEW ZEALAND, WHEN COMPARED TO SOME OTHER OFFSHORE MARKETS, THE PRICE HERE IS MUCH HIGHER, WHICH MIGHT MAKE IT LUCRATIVE FOR SOME OF THOSE INTERNATIONAL CRIME SYNDICATES. AGAIN, I'M JUST TRYING TO UNDERSTAND WHY METHAMPHETAMINE ` WHICH IS ARGUABLY THE MOST HARMFUL OF THOSE THREE DRUGS WE'VE JUST MENTIONED, HAS INCREASED SO MUCH OVER THAT PERIOD. SO YOU SAY THAT POLICE IS WORKING CLOSELY WITH CUSTOMS, BUT IF THAT MUCH METH IS GETTING THROUGH THE BORDER, IS CUSTOMS LETTING YOU DOWN? NO, WE WORK VERY CLOSELY AND VERY HARD WITH CUSTOMS` SO HOW'S IT GETTING THROUGH? WELL, YOU KNOW, THAT'S RIGHT` I MEAN, SADLY, ORGANISED CRIMINAL GROUPS RUN BUSINESS MODELS THAT WILL EXPLOIT ANY VULNERABILITY, AND SOME OF THOSE VULNERABILITIES MAY NOT BE IN OUR COUNTRY. SO THAT'S WHY WE ALSO WORK VERY CLOSELY WITH PACIFIC NATIONS ` LAST WEEK I WAS UP IN SAMOA AND FIJI, TALKING TO POLICE COMMISSIONERS, TALKING ABOUT THE THREATS TO THEM AND WORKING CLOSELY WITH THEM. THAT'S WHY WE HAVE STAFF IN THE PACIFIC AS WELL, TO SUPPORT ISSUES THAT THEY GRAPPLE WITH. MM. UM... SO IT'S A BIG PROBLEM GLOBALLY TOO ` YOU KNOW, HAVING SPENT SOME TIME LAST YEAR WORKING AT INTERPOL, AND MY ROLE WAS OPERATIONAL ` WORKING WITH ORGANISED CRIMINAL, UH... TEAMS WHO FOCUS ON ORGANISED CRIME ` YOU KNOW, IT'S ACTUALLY` IT IS A GLOBAL PROBLEM, IT'S A TRANSNATIONAL PROBLEM` MM. ...AND IT PRESENTS A BIG THREAT TO COMMUNITIES ACROSS NEW ZEALAND. THAT IS WHY WE ARE WORKING INCREDIBLY HARD TO TRY AND ADDRESS THAT` DO YOU HAVE ANY SENSE, THOUGH` LIKE, ARE THERE ARE THERE VULNERABILITIES THAT DIDN'T EXIST WHEN IT COMES TO CUSTOMS, SAY, 12 MONTHS AGO? ARE THERE PARTS OF OUR DEFENCE AGAINST METHAMPHETAMINE IN THESE INTERNATIONAL SYNDICATES THAT ARE MORE VULNERABLE THAN IN THE PAST? COS AGAIN, IT` IT'S DOUBLED. YEAH, NO, JACK ` WELL, LOOK, I MEAN, SADLY, GROUPS EXPLOIT THINGS LIKE ADDICTION. MM. UH... YOU KNOW, THEY` AS I SAY, THERE'S A DEMAND AND A SUPPLY SIDE` BUT THERE'S ALWAYS BEEN THE ADDICTION SIDE, RIGHT? THERE HAS. THERE HAS, YEAH. LOOK, UM... IT'S A COMPLEX LANDSCAPE, AND I` MM. ...AND THAT IS WHY SO MUCH EFFORT'S GOING INTO UNDERSTANDING WHAT NEW OPPORTUNITIES THERE ARE. SOME OF THOSE MAY BE LEGISLATIVE ` YOU KNOW, LIKE THE MOTIVATION OF ORGANISED CRIMINAL GROUPS IS MONEY. IT JUST SO HAPPENS THAT FOR NEW ZEALAND, A PARTICULAR PROBLEM IS METHAMPHETAMINE, BECAUSE OF THE LUCRATIVE MARKET. SO A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF WORK IS GOING IN BY MY STAFF, UM... BY OTHER LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFSHORE, CUSTOMS... YOU KNOW, WE'RE ALL WORKING REALLY, REALLY HARD TO UNDERSTAND WHAT NEW THINGS WE CAN DO AND CONSIDER TO TRY AND KEEP THE COUNTRY AND OUR COMMUNITIES SAFE, AND THAT HARD WORK WILL CONTINUE UNTIL WE'VE GOT SOLUTIONS. SO LEGISLATIVE CHANGES, YOU THINK, COULD BE REQUIRED? THERE'S ABSOLUTELY` THAT'S ONE ASPECT OF THE WORK THAT'S UNDERWAY NOW IS, YOU KNOW, IS THERE MORE THAT COULD BE DONE AROUND ASSET RESTRAINT, RECOVERY? MEAN, AS I SAY, ORGANISED CRIMINAL GROUPS DO WHAT THEY DO BECAUSE THERE'S MONEY INVOLVED. YEAH. UM... THEY DON'T REALLY CARE ABOUT ANYTHING ELSE. YEAH. I MEAN, WE DO HAVE PROCEEDS OF CRIME LEGISLATION, AS IT STANDS` 100% WE DO. YEAH. SO THOSE COULD BE TOUGHENED UP. WELL, I BELIEVE THERE'S OPPORTUNITIES THERE TO BE MORE AGGRESSIVE WHEN IT COMES TO, UM... TO RESTRAINING, UH... ASSETS, UH... THE PROCEEDS OF CRIME. I BELIEVE THERE ARE LIKELY TO BE OPPORTUNITIES THAT WE CAN CONSIDER, THAT MIGHT PROVIDE MORE POWERS AND MORE SUPPORT TO POLICE AND OTHER AGENCIES TO TAKE AWAY THE MOTIVATION FOR ORGANISED CRIMINAL GROUPS HERE IN NEW ZEALAND BECAUSE THEY'RE EXPLOITING OUR PEOPLE AND OUR COMMUNITIES, AND WE NEED TO GO AND ATTACK THEM HARD, TOO. CAN YOU GIVE US SLIGHTLY MORE SPECIFICITY THERE? GIVE US AN EXAMPLE OF WHERE YOU SEE THAT OPPORTUNITY. WHAT MIGHT CHANGE? I THINK THERE'S AN OPPORTUNITY TO SPEED UP PROCESSES IN TERMS OF OUR ABILITY TO RESTRAIN AND FORFEIT. SOME OF THE PROCESSES AT THE MOMENT CAN TAKE A LONG TIME, AND I THINK THE FASTER WE CAN ACT AND TAKE AWAY THE WILL TO EXPLOIT COMMUNITIES, I THINK THERE COULD BE OPPORTUNITIES THERE. SO, HAVE A LOOK AT THESE NUMBERS OF THE WASTEWATER TESTING ` NOW, IF YOU LOOK AT THAT SPIKE ` CUTS AT CUSTOMS CAME INTO EFFECT IN THE MIDDLE OF LAST YEAR. I MEAN, IT SORT OF DIRECTLY COINCIDES, AT LEAST IN TERMS OF TIMING WITH THE SPIKE THAT YOU CAN SEE WITH THE METHAMPHETAMINE LEVELS IN WASTEWATER. ACCORDING TO THE RESTRUCTURE DOCUMENT FROM CUSTOMS AND REPORTING FROM STUFF AT THE TIME, THOSE CUTS INCLUDED 12 CUSTOMS OFFICERS. GIVEN YOUR INTERAGENCY WORK, IS IT YOUR VIEW THAT CUTTING CUSTOMS STAFF HAS POTENTIALLY RESULTED IN MORE METHAMPHETAMINE COMING INTO NEW ZEALAND? WELL, THAT'S NOT SOMETHING THAT I WOULD COMMENT ON, JACK. I MEAN, CUSTOMS HAVE GONE ABOUT A RESTRUCTURE. THEY'VE MADE DECISIONS BASED ON CRITERIA ` THAT'S NOT FOR ME TO COMMENT ON. MM. IT DOES COINCIDE DIRECTLY WITH THAT HUGE METHAMPHETAMINE SPIKE WHICH YOU WERE THEN DEALING WITH. WELL, THAT COULD BE AN ASSUMPTION, BUT, YOU KNOW, YEAH, I'M WELL-PLACED. TIMING-WISE, IT CORRELATES. YEAH. TIMING CORRELATES ` WHETHER THAT'S AN ISSUE THAT CORRELATES TO THE ACTUAL PROBLEM, I'M NOT SURE. LET ME REFRAME IT A DIFFERENT WAY. WOULD GIVING CUSTOMS MORE RESOURCES MEAN THAT LESS METHAMPHETAMINE COMES INTO NEW ZEALAND? WELL, I THINK YOU'D HAVE TO ASK CUSTOMS THAT ` I MEAN, I'M QUITE SURE IT GIVES` WHAT'S YOUR VIEW? I MEAN` I'M SURE` QUITE SURE THAT IT WOULD GIVE THE OPPORTUNITY FOR US TO, UM... TO WORK EVEN MORE BROADLY WITH CUSTOMS ` MORE RESOURCE, YOU KNOW, MORE WORK. AND THE DEMAND, AS YOU CAN TELL, IS HIGH. MM. SO, UH... IT'S OBVIOUSLY COMMON SENSE THAT THAT WOULD MAKE SENSE, BUT IT'S NOT FOR ME TO COMMENT ON WHETHER THAT'S SOMETHING THAT'S AN OPTION. SO, NORTHLAND HAS THE HIGHEST METHAMPHETAMINE USE OF ANY REGION IN NEW ZEALAND. NGAPUHI CHAIR MANE TAHERE SAID HE'S RECENTLY SEEN YOUNG PEOPLE OPENLY SMOKING P ON THE MAIN STREET IN KAIKOHE. IN YOUR VIEW, DOES NORTHLAND HAVE A METHAMPHETAMINE CRISIS? WELL, I THINK IF YOU LOOK AT THE WASTEWATER DATA, YES, THERE'S CONCERNS THERE. ABSOLUTELY. A CRISIS? UM... WELL, LOOK, IF YOU HEAR STORIES LIKE THAT, I MEAN, THEY REALLY ARE CONCERNING, JACK, AND I KNOW THAT WE ARE WORKING VERY, VERY CLOSELY WITH NORTHLAND ` I'VE, UH... PUT ADDITIONAL STAFF UP IN NORTHLAND TO SUPPORT THE WORK OF MY FRONTLINE STAFF. UM... WE ARE, OF COURSE, CONSIDERING WHAT OTHER OPPORTUNITIES THAT WE HAVE. WE'VE SEEN HUGE SUCCESS IN SOME COMMUNITIES LIKE OPOTIKI, WHERE WE'VE RUN SIGNIFICANT OPERATIONS THAT HIT VERY HARD AT THE HEART OF ORGANISED CRIMINAL GROUPS AND THE NETWORKS WHO DO WANT TO EXPLOIT THEIR OWN COMMUNITIES AS WELL. MM. SO WE'VE GOT A ROLE TO PLAY ` WHETHER THAT'S MORE STAFF, SIGNIFICANT OPERATIONS ` BUT ULTIMATELY, IT'S NOT JUST A POLICE PROBLEM, RIGHT? WE WILL WORK REALLY HARD WITH COMMUNITIES, WITH IWI, UM... OTHER AGENCIES TO ADDRESS THE ADDICTION ISSUES. YEAH. UH` THE ROOT CAUSE, RATHER THAN JUST THE AMBULANCE AT THE BOTTOM OF THE CLIFF. ABSOLUTELY. ABSOLUTELY. SO WE'VE GOT A KEY ROLE TO PLAY, BUT WE CAN'T DO THIS ON OUR OWN. SO WHEN DID YOU PUT MORE STAFF IN NORTHLAND? WE` JUST THIS MONTH, WE HAVE, UH... PUT ADDITIONAL STAFF UP THERE. WE'RE LOOKING, AT THIS STAGE, AT 10 WEEKS ` ABOUT 30 EXTRA STAFF AT A TIME. RIGHT. WE'RE GRADUALLY BUILDING THAT. WE'LL SEE WHAT DIFFERENCE THAT MAKES, AND WE WILL THEN NEED TO CONSIDER, YOU KNOW, HOW LONG WE CAN CONTINUE TO DO THAT UNTIL WE'VE SEEN A CHANGE. SO FOR ANYONE WHO DOESN'T REMEMBER IT, LAST YEAR, POLICE RAIDED NUMEROUS PROPERTIES IN A COORDINATED RESPONSE AROUND OPOTIKI. IN THE MONTHS AFTERWARDS, WASTEWATER TESTING SHOWED A 50% REDUCTION IN OPOTIKI ` WHEN THE REST OF THE NORTH ISLAND WAS GOING MASSIVELY UP, OPOTIKI WENT MASSIVELY DOWN ` SO TALK TO US ABOUT HOW THAT KIND OF OPERATION MIGHT APPLY TO THE NORTHLAND SITUATION. WELL, I MEAN, WE HAVE A RANGE OF OPTIONS AVAILABLE TO US IN TERMS OF HOW WE CAN ADDRESS ISSUES AND PROBLEMS. UH... SOME OF THOSE OPERATIONS ARE QUITE COMPLEX, AND THEY DO TAKE TIME` MM. ...BUT OBVIOUSLY IT WOULD BE REMISS OF ME IF I WASN'T CONSIDERING OTHER OPPORTUNITIES ` NOT JUST HERE IN THE NORTH ISLAND, BUT IN ALL PARTS OF NEW ZEALAND, TO ADDRESS THE ISSUES THAT WE SEE IN POLICING. MM. ALL RIGHT. THIS IS THE FIRST TIME WE'VE SPOKEN SINCE YOU TOOK OVER AS COMMISSIONER AT THE END OF LAST YEAR. YOU'VE ANNOUNCED THIS WEEK THAT YOU'LL BE OPENING A TRAINING COLLEGE IN AUCKLAND COME NEXT MONTH ` WHAT KIND OF DIFFERENCE IS THAT GOING TO MAKE TO POLICE? WELL, YES ` THE 30TH OF JUNE, JACK, WE OPEN A NEW CAMPUS IN ALBANY. WE WILL BE PUTTING, UH... THE FIRST RECRUIT WING THROUGH STARTING ON THE 30TH. VERY PROUD TO BE ABLE TO SIGN A LONG-TERM LEASE WITH MASSEY, SO I'M CONFIDENT THAT THIS WILL BE THE FIRST OF MANY RECRUIT WINGS. WHAT I'M PARTICULARLY PROUD OF IS THAT FOR` I KNOW FOR MANY FAMILIES, THE REALITY OF GOING TO PORIRUA TRAINING COLLEGE FOR 20 WEEKS IS TOO MUCH. YEAH. AND SO HAVING A FACILITY HERE IN AUCKLAND, OUR BIGGEST CITY IN THE COUNTRY, I KNOW OPENS THE DOOR FOR THOSE THAT WANT A CAREER IN POLICING. SO... THERE ARE MANY BENEFITS EVEN BEYOND RECRUITING. WE WILL BE RUNNING SENIOR COURSES HERE, ALL SORTS OF COURSES AVAILABLE TO OUR STAFF. UM` AND BY RUNNING THE SENIOR COURSES IN AUCKLAND, THAT PRESUMABLY MEANS YOU FREE UP SPACE IN PORIRUA, WHICH HOPEFULLY YOU CAN THEN FILL WITH OTHER RECRUITS. YEAH, THAT'S RIGHT. OF COURSE. YEAH, YEAH. ABSOLUTELY. IT GIVES US` INCREASES OUR CAPABILITY, OUR CAPACITY TO DELIVER MORE FOR MY... MY STAFF. WILL THE TARGET OF 500 NEW OFFICERS BE ACHIEVED BY THE END OF THIS YEAR? SO THAT IS AN AMBITIOUS` A GOAL. UH... AND MY STAFF ARE WORKING INCREDIBLY HARD TO GET AS CLOSE TO THAT AS WE CAN` MM. BUT THE REALITY IS, UH... IN A MARKET THAT IS A BIT TIGHT AT TIMES, IN, UH... YOU KNOW, WE HAVE SOME RECRUIT PROCESSES THAT I THINK COULD BE SHARPENED UP IN TERMS OF THEIR EFFICIENCY, IT'S GOING TO TAKE A BIT LONGER. ONE THING, AND I'VE SAID VERY CLEARLY, UM... IS THAT I WILL NOT BE COMPROMISING STANDARDS. MM. I AM NOT PREPARED TO LOWER STANDARDS TO ALLOW, UH... PEOPLE INTO THE POLICE AND THEN HAVE TO DEAL WITH OTHER ISSUES BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT UP TO IT. SIMPLE AS THAT. MM. I'M VERY PROUD OF THE STANDARDS THAT WE HAVE. WE WORK VERY, VERY HARD TO MAINTAIN THOSE. THE PEOPLE OF NEW ZEALAND EXPECT THEIR POLICE TO BE THE BEST MEN AND WOMEN THAT WE CAN PUT INTO LAW ENFORCEMENT. AND I'M VERY CONFIDENT THAT, UH... THAT WE WILL WORK VERY, VERY HARD TO GET AS CLOSE TO THE END OF THIS YEAR. BUT THE REALITY IS, NEXT YEAR IS MORE LIKELY. WHEN NEXT YEAR? I DO NOT KNOW, JACK, AND THERE'S A FEW THINGS HERE THAT ARE AT PLAY, SUCH AS ATTRITION. WE HAVE SEEN, OVER THE LAST 12 MONTHS, A SLIGHTLY HIGHER ATTRITION THAN WE ARE USED TO. BUT INTERESTINGLY ENOUGH, RIGHT NOW WE HAVE OVER 130 FORMER NEW ZEALAND POLICE STAFF WANTING TO COME BACK TO NEW ZEALAND. MM. SOME OF THESE ARE PEOPLE WHO HAVE ELECTED TO GO OFFSHORE. THEY WANT TO COME BACK. SO WE'RE ALSO LOOKING AT THOSE THAT WANT TO REJOIN NEW ZEALAND POLICE ` KEEPING AN OPEN MIND AS TO, UH... YOU KNOW, THOSE OPTIONS TOO, BUT WE HAVE IN THE PIPELINE A SIGNIFICANT NUMBER OF STAFF WANTING TO JOIN MY ORGANISATION, WHICH IS GOOD. RIGHT NOW WE HAVE A LITTLE OVER 10,200, AND WE HAVE OVER 330 TRAINING AT THE POLICE COLLEGE RIGHT NOW. SO` SO WITH ALL OF THOSE, AND I APPRECIATE THAT THOSE ARE SORT OF CHANGEABLE DYNAMICS, BUT WITH THE BEST INFORMATION YOU HAVE AVAILABLE AT THE MOMENT, WHEN WOULD YOU SAY YOU ARE LIKELIEST TO HIT THAT 500 NEW POLICE TARGET? WELL, I'M ABSOLUTELY FOCUSED, OBVIOUSLY, ON THE END OF NOVEMBER THIS YEAR. THAT'S THE AMBITIOUS GOAL. BUT YOU'VE SAID THAT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. YEAH. THE REALITY IS` YOU KNOW, IT WILL BE A CHALLENGE. WE STILL WORK WITH THAT IN MIND, BUT IT'S MORE LIKELY TO BE, I WOULD SAY, UH... EARLY PART OF 2026. EARLY PART OF 2026? I'M HOPEFUL. I'M POSITIVE, AND I'M STAYING POSITIVE. (LAUGHS) AND I'VE GIVEN MY PEOPLE ADDITIONAL RESOURCE` YEAH. ...TO SPEED UP THE PROCESS. WE HAVE A VERY, VERY INTENSE TESTING REGIME` YEAH. UM... WHICH I'M NOT PREPARED TO COMPROMISE, AND I AM A LITTLE DISAPPOINTED TO LEARN THAT, UH... IN MORE RECENT TIMES, UM... SOME DECISIONS HAVE BEEN MADE THAT, UM... BUT, YOU KNOW, LOOK, MOVE ON. I'M BEING CLEAR ABOUT EXPECTATIONS, AND, UM... WE WILL CONTINUE TO WORK VERY HARD TO MAKE SURE WE HIT THE DEADLINES, OR AT LEAST AS CLOSE AS WE POSSIBLY CAN. SO ` LAST QUESTION ON THIS, AND THEN I'LL MOVE ON, I PROMISE ` ARE WE LOOKING AT LIKE, FIRST TWO QUARTERS OF NEXT YEAR, FIRST HALF OF NEXT YEAR? IT'S HARD FOR ME TO BE PRECISE, JACK, TO BE HONEST. BEST INFORMATION YOU HAVE. I MEAN WHAT WOULD BE YOUR BEST ESTIMATE TODAY? I WOULD LOVE TO THINK THAT IN THE` IN THE EARLY PART` THE MONTH OF JUNE, IN 2026 ` JUNE HAS BEEN SAID AS A POSSIBLE DATE. YEAH. COULD BE JUNE. I WOULD LIKE IT TO BE A LOT SOONER THAN THAT, BECAUSE I` YOU KNOW, I WANT AS MANY STAFF AS I CAN GET OUT ON THE BEAT, POLICING ACROSS NEW ZEALAND, UM... AS SOON AS I CAN. WHO WOULDN'T WANT THAT? SO THAT'S WHY WE'RE WORKING SO HARD. YEAH, OF COURSE. YEAH. YOU MENTIONED THIS WHEN IT COMES TO THE RECRUIT TRAINING ` WILL ANY POLICE OFFICERS BE SWORN IN IF THEY HAVEN'T PASSED THOSE SWIMMING STANDARDS? SO, JUST TO BE CLEAR ON THE SWIMMING ASPECT OF THAT ` SO THAT'S AN ASSESSMENT THAT WE PUT OUR STAFF THROUGH, AND WE'RE OBVIOUSLY GOING BACK AND BACK-CAPTURING ABOUT 330-ODD STAFF WHO DIDN'T DO THE ASSESSMENT. THAT ASSESSMENT IS ABOUT PUTTING STAFF IN A SITUATION WHERE THEY, FOR INSTANCE, UM... TREAD WATER FOR A WHILE, THEY... THEY DIVE DOWN AND RETRIEVE A BRICK, THEY SWIM 50M ` IT'S AN ASSESSMENT TO HELP THEM UNDERSTAND THEIR OWN CAPABILITIES IN THE POOL. IT'S NOT A PASS OR FAIL. RIGHT. THAT SAID, I AM LOOKING AT THAT AS AN OPTION. IT WAS TAKEN AWAY IN 2017, AND I'M LOOKING AT AS AN OPTION OF BRINGING THAT BACK, BECAUSE I DO BELIEVE THERE'S AN IMPORTANT COMPONENT TO THE WATER ` WE'RE AN ISLAND NATION` YEAH. ... AND I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW HOW MY STAFF MAKE DECISIONS UNDER PRESSURE WHEN IT INVOLVES INCIDENTS AND WATER. YEAH. SO, FOR INSTANCE, IT MAY NOT BE AS RUDIMENTARY AS A BRICK AND PADDLING AND A 50m SWIM. THE FRONT LINE OF NEW ZEALAND POLICE HAS A VERY COMPLEX AND DEMANDING JOB` MM. SO PUTTING OUR` MY FRONTLINE STAFF UNDER COGNITIVE PRESSURE AND THEN HAVE TO MAKE DECISIONS THAT MIGHT INVOLVE WATER` WE DO IT NOW ON LAND ` MM. ...THAT'S THE SORT OF ASSESSMENT I'M THINKING ABOUT IN THE FUTURE ` ONE THAT'S A BIT MORE PRACTICAL TO THE SITUATIONS THEY FIND THEMSELVES DEALING WITH. AND WOULD YOU RETROSPECTIVELY APPLY THAT TEST TO POLICE OFFICERS WHO HAVE ALREADY BEEN SWORN IN? NO. NO, WE HAVE TO` SO` NO. ONLY TO NEW RECRUITS. RIGHT. WE HAVE TO DRAW A LINE AND SAY, 'RIGHT, LET'S MOVE ON ` 'LET'S POTENTIALLY LOOK AT OTHER OPTIONS, 'MODERNISE SOME OF THE ASSESSMENT THAT WE DO PUT OUR PEOPLE THROUGH.' RICHARD CHAMBERS. SO YOU KNOW, WE RECORDED OUR CONVERSATION ON THURSDAY. YESTERDAY, THE GOVERNMENT ANNOUNCED $35M IN NEW SPENDING TO BOLSTER CUSTOMS. MINISTER CASEY COSTELLO DENIED THAT CUSTOMS' PREVIOUS CUTS HAVE CONTRIBUTED TO THE SPIKE IN METH USE. AFTER THE BREAK ` THE COMMISSIONER'S THOUGHTS ON GUN LAWS, AND WE ASK FOR THE THRESHOLD FOR ROUTINELY ARMING POLICE. WHEN RICHARD CHAMBERS WAS APPOINTED POLICE COMMISSIONER, POLICE MINISTER MARK MITCHELL PRAISED HIS OPERATIONAL EXPERIENCE AND UNDERSTANDING OF FRONTLINE POLICING. FOR THE SECOND PART OF OUR INTERVIEW, I ASKED ABOUT HIS POLICING PHILOSOPHY. YOU WERE A CRITIC OF THE 'POLICING BY CONSENT' ETHOS THAT BECAME ASSOCIATED WITH YOUR PREDECESSOR. IN PRACTICAL TERMS, WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN POLICING BY CONSENT AND POLICING WITH TRUST AND CONFIDENCE? YEAH, WELL, LOOK, JACK, POLICING BY CONSENT IS NOT PART OF MY VOCABULARY, FRANKLY. AND I DON'T BELIEVE THAT SUFFICIENT PEOPLE ACTUALLY UNDERSTAND WHAT IT MEANS. I STRUGGLE WITH IT, RIGHT? DOESN'T IT JUST MEAN TRUST AND CONFIDENCE? WELL, WHY NOT TALK ABOUT TRUST AND CONFIDENCE, THEN? AND THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT I DO, SO` SO IT'S JUST BRANDING, RIGHT? TRUST AND CONFIDENCE ` LOOK, WE` TRUST AND CONFIDENCE ` AND I SAID THIS ON DAY ONE, AT THE END OF NOVEMBER LAST YEAR WHEN I STARTED IN THIS ROLE, TRUST AND CONFIDENCE BOTH EXTERNALLY AND INTERNALLY IN POLICE IS CRITICAL. AND WE ARE SEEING THAT TRACKING IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION NOW. YEAH. I` THAT'S THE VIBE I GET FROM MY OWN PEOPLE ACROSS THE ORGANISATION, ACROSS THE COUNTRY, BUT ALSO EXTERNALLY, PUBLICLY ` YOU KNOW, THERE'S A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF SUPPORT FOR POLICE OUT THERE. I MEAN, WE'VE GOT SOME FANTASTIC SUCCESSES IN THE LAST FIVE MONTHS. I THINK ABOUT THE NEW GANG LEGISLATION AS JUST ONE EXAMPLE OF THAT. SO` MY PEOPLE ARE WORKING VERY, VERY HARD, AND TRUST AND CONFIDENCE MATTERS. THAT'S WHAT I TALK ABOUT. IN A PRACTICAL SENSE, THOUGH, IS THERE ANY DIFFERENCE BETWEEN POLICING BY CONSENT AND POLICING WITH TRUST AND CONFIDENCE? DOES THE ACTUAL POLICING CHANGE? I'M NOT THE RIGHT PERSON TO ASK. JACK, FRANKLY, I TALK ABOUT TRUST AND CONFIDENCE. THAT'S WHERE THE BUCK STOPS. BUT YOU` I DON'T THINK TOO HARD ABOUT (CHUCKLES) POLICING BY CONSENT, COS IT'S SOMETHING THAT I'VE PERSONALLY BEEN CONFUSED BY. THERE'S TOO MANY PEOPLE THAT I'VE COME ACROSS THERE'S NOT TOO MANY PEOPLE THAT I'VE COME ACROSS THAT UNDERSTAND WHAT IT ACTUALLY MEANS. WHY NOT JUST TALK ABOUT TRUST AND CONFIDENCE? WHY TRY AND CONFUSE THE LANDSCAPE? TRUST AND CONFIDENCE MATTERS TO THE JOB OF POLICE ` WE NEED THE SUPPORT OF COMMUNITIES. UM... UH... INTERNALLY, I'VE GOT A GOOD FEELING FROM MY PEOPLE. MM. THAT'S GOOD. EXTERNALLY, GOOD FEELING AS WELL ` LET'S STAY FOCUSED ON THOSE THINGS. MM. I MEAN, DOESN'T IT JUST MEAN` ISN'T THE CLUE IN THE TITLE? DOESN'T IT JUST MEAN POLICING IN A WAY THAT YOUR COMMUNITY SUPPORTS? TRUST AND CONFIDENCE. IN YOUR VIEW, HAS THE POLICE MINISTER EVER GIVEN YOU INSTRUCTION ON OPERATIONAL MATTERS? NO. GOODNESS ME, NO, THAT'S` THAT'S A LONG-STANDING, UH... AND WELL-UNDERSTOOD, UH... PRINCIPLE OF NEW ZEALAND POLICE. IT'S WRITTEN IN LEGISLATION. UH` NO, NOT AT ALL. I WORK VERY WELL WITH MY MINISTER OF POLICE. HE'S VERY, VERY SUPPORTIVE, AND THAT SUPPORT IS IMPORTANT, BUT NO, WHEN IT COMES TO OPERATIONAL MATTERS, OPERATIONAL INDEPENDENCE IS WELL UNDERSTOOD. SO I'VE JUST PULLED OUT A COUPLE OF QUOTES, AND I APPRECIATE THESE ARE OPEN TO INTERPRETATION, RIGHT? SO THE POLICE MINISTER WAS COMPARING THE SITUATION IN NORTHLAND WITH METHAMPHETAMINE TO THE SITUATION IN OPOTIKI THAT YOU REFERENCED EARLIER. LAST YEAR, AND HE SAID, QUOTE, 'THAT'S AN OPERATIONAL MATTER FOR POLICE, 'BUT I'VE TOLD THE NGAPUHI CEO 'WE NEED TO BE DOING THE SAME THING AS OPOTIKI.' WELL, I MEAN, LIKE I'VE SHARED WITH YOU TODAY, I MEAN, OBVIOUSLY ONE OF THE OPTIONS AVAILABLE FOR POLICE IS TO CONSIDER` BUT THAT'S THE MINISTER SAYING, 'WE NEED TO BE DOING THE SAME THING 'AS OPOTIKI.' ISN'T THAT AN OPERATIONAL...? WELL, NO. NO, NO, I THINK` YOU COULD GO OUT TO THE PUBLIC AND ASK THEM WHAT THEY MIGHT SAY. BUT THE WHOLE POINT IS THAT HE'S THE MINISTER OF POLICE. HE'S NOT SUPPOSED TO OFFER OPERATIONAL THINGS, RIGHT? I MEAN, SURELY SAYING` NO, NO` ...'WE NEED TO BE DOING THE SAME THING,' QUOTE UNQUOTE, IS... I MEAN, SURELY THAT'S OPERATIONAL. NO, THAT DOESN'T INTERFERE WITH MY DECISION-MAKING. RIGHT. UM` HE SAID, REGARDING THE SWIM TESTS, QUOTE, 'I HAVE MADE MY EXPECTATIONS CLEAR 'THAT THE OFFICERS STILL RECEIVE THIS ASSESSMENT.' RIGHT. IS THAT NOT OPERATIONAL? WELL, LOOK, HE'S... HE'S, LIKE ME, VERY CLEAR ON STANDARDS. WE'RE NOT GOING TO COMPROMISE THEM, AND I'VE TALKED TO THE MINISTER ABOUT WHAT I'M DOING AROUND THAT. MM. BUT THE QUESTION IS, IS THAT AN OPERATIONAL DIRECTION? 'I HAVE MADE MY EXPECTATIONS CLEAR ` THE OFFICERS STILL RECEIVE THIS ASSESSMENT. YEAH, AGAIN, I'M NOT INFLUENCED BY THAT. I MAKE MY OWN DECISIONS WITH MY EXECUTIVE, AND I DO THAT IN CONSULTATION, OFTEN WITH FRONTLINE STAFF AS WELL. I DON'T` YOU KNOW. MM. THAT DOESN'T DISTRACT THE ROLE THAT I HAVE. DOES INSTITUTIONAL RACISM EXIST WITHIN THE POLICE? NO. IN 2023, THE UNDERSTANDING POLICE DELIVERY REPORT FOUND, QUOTE, 'ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL, MAORI ARE 11% MORE LIKELY TO BE PROSECUTED THAN NEW ZEALAND EUROPEANS.' YEAH. LOOK, THAT REPORT WAS COMMISSIONED BY THE FORMER COMMISSIONER OF POLICE, ANDY COSTER. I HAVE HAD A LOOK AT THE 51 RECOMMENDATIONS. IN FACT, THE 51 RECOMMENDATIONS WENT TO THE POLICE EXECUTIVE BEFORE I STARTED AS THE COMMISSIONER, AND THEY MADE DECISIONS ON A NUMBER OF THEM. UM... DID YOU DISAGREE WITH THE FINDINGS OF THAT REPORT? UH` LOOK, I'M ACTUALLY FOCUSED ON BUILDING ON THE RELATIONSHIP AND THE PARTNERSHIPS THAT WE HAVE WITH MAORI THAT WE'VE HAD FOR 30 YEARS. THE QUESTION IS IF INSTITUTIONAL RACISM EXISTS ` AND, I MEAN, THAT'S A QUOTE FROM SIR KIM WORKMAN, WHO AUTHORED THE REPORT: 'ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL, MAORI 'ARE 11% MORE LIKELY TO BE PROSECUTED 'THAN NEW ZEALAND EUROPEANS.' I MEAN, THAT WOULD, AT THE VERY LEAST FROM THE OUTSIDE, SUGGEST A DEGREE OF INSTITUTIONAL RACISM MIGHT EXIST WITHIN THE ORGANISATION. LOOK, IN MY 30 YEARS OF POLICING, JACK, I HAVE NOT PERSONALLY SEEN, UH... AN ATTITUDE TOWARD MAORI THAT I AM CONCERNED ABOUT IN TERMS OF VALUES. IT'S` YOU KNOW, OUR COMMITMENT TO MAORI AND THE TREATY IS ONE OF VALUES. WE'VE WORKED WITH MAORI FOR OVER 30 YEARS, STARTED BY COMMISSIONER` FORMER COMMISSIONER PETER DOONE. IT REMAINS A HUGE PRIORITY ` NOT JUST FOR POLICE, BUT FOR MAORI COMMUNITIES. IN MY SHORT` SO WHY DOES THAT DISCREPANCY EXIST? WELL, LOOK, THAT PIECE OF WORK, NO DOUBT` I'VE WORKED VERY CLOSELY WITH SIR KIM WORKMAN OVER THE YEARS. WE HAVE A GOOD WORKING RELATIONSHIP TOGETHER. WHERE THERE ARE OPPORTUNITIES FOR US TO THINK AND WORK TOGETHER BETTER, IDENTIFY NEW OPPORTUNITIES ` WE WILL DO THAT. I MEAN, THAT'S THE OPEN MIND. I WANT US` SORRY, THE QUESTION IS, THOUGH, WHY DOES THAT DISCREPANCY EXIST? I CAN'T EXPLAIN THAT, JACK. I CAN'T EXPLAIN THAT. IT'S, UM... AS I SAY, WE HAVE A PROUD HISTORY OF WORKING CLOSELY WITH MAORI, AND THERE WILL BE TIMES WHEN WE GET IT WRONG, AND I'VE BEEN CLEAR ABOUT THIS FROM DAY ONE. POLICING IS CHALLENGING. MY STAFF ENCOUNTER SITUATIONS THAT ARE TRAUMATIC, UM... UNDER PRESSURE, SOMETIMES OUR DECISION-MAKING IS NOT ALWAYS WHAT IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN IN A CALM, SETTLED ENVIRONMENT, BUT THAT'S THE ROLE OF POLICE ` AND IT'S TOUGH. IT REALLY IS. BEHIND THESE UNIFORMS ARE HUMAN BEINGS, RIGHT? MM. AND SOMETIMES, THINGS DON'T ALWAYS GO TO PLAN. THE APPROACH THAT I WANT MY STAFF TO TAKE IS THAT WHERE WE CAN REFLECT ON A SITUATION, IF THERE'S SOMETHING WE CAN LEARN FROM THAT TO BE BETTER, THEN LET'S DO THAT. WE'RE NOT ALWAYS GOING TO GET IT RIGHT. I'M NOT ALWAYS GOING TO GET IT RIGHT AS THE COMMISSIONER OF POLICE EITHER, BUT I'M INCREDIBLY PROUD OF THE WORK OF MY FRONTLINE, UM... 15,000 STAFF IN THE ORGANISATION. YEAH. UM... THERE'S WORK TO DO ACROSS MANY THINGS, BUT ONE OF THE` BUT I MEAN` SORRY TO INTERRUPT. YOU JUST SAID` YOU SAID IT WAS LIKE` YOU SAID EMPHATICALLY THAT INSTITUTIONAL RACISM DOESN'T EXIST WITHIN THE INSTITUTION. YEAH. NOW, I BROUGHT YOU THAT NUMBER FROM SIR KIM WORKMAN ` I MEAN, IN SEPTEMBER LAST YEAR, STUFF ANALYSIS COMPARED RATES OF CANNABIS USE TO RATES OF CANNABIS PROSECUTION ` OF COURSE, DISCRETION APPLIES FOR POLICE HERE ` MORE PAKEHA USED CANNABIS, BUT MORE MAORI WERE CHARGED WITH CANNABIS OFFENCES. WHY WOULD THAT BE? WELL, I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I'M HOPEFUL OF IS THAT WE'VE ALSO CONSIDERED ALTERNATIVE RESOLUTIONS TO MANY OF THE SITUATIONS FRONTLINE STAFF DEAL WITH. SO TE PAE ORANGA IS ONE EXAMPLE OF THAT. SO WHEN IT COMES TO THINGS LIKE CANNABIS` AND THIS IS NOT ABOUT MAORI, IT'S NOT ABOUT PAKEHA EXCLUSIVELY. WELL, IT IS, THOUGH. BECAUSE MAORI ARE BEING CHARGED MORE, BUT PAKEHA ARE USING MORE. YES, LOOK, I APPRECIATE THE STATISTICS ` YOU KNOW, I UNDERSTAND THAT. THAT DOES MOTIVATE ME TO ENSURE THAT WE CONTINUE THE HARD WORK THAT WE'VE HAD IN PLACE FOR A LONG TIME TO WORK IN PARTNERSHIP WITH MAORI. WE HAVE WORK UNDERWAY RIGHT NOW WHEN IT COMES TO TRAINING OF OUR PEOPLE. YOU KNOW, WE HAVE MODULES WHICH MY STAFF GO THROUGH AND, UM... HELP US UNDERSTAND, UM... CULTURAL DIFFERENCES, NOT JUST WITH MAORI, PACIFIC, ETHNIC` WE'RE WORKING REALLY HARD AS AN ORGANISATION ` AND CAN I SAY ONE THING TOO, JACK? YOU KNOW, HAVING SPENT LAST YEAR OVERSEAS, UH... WORKING WITH LAW ENFORCEMENT AROUND THE WORLD, I CONSTANTLY REFLECTED ON HOW FORTUNATE WE ARE IN NEW ZEALAND TO HAVE THE RELATIONSHIP, HAVE THE PARTNERSHIPS THAT WE DO HAVE WITH MAORI. THAT'S THE FIRST AND VERY BIG STEP THAT WE NEED TO BE BETTER. MM. I'VE GOT AN OPEN MIND, AS I SAY ` A LEARNING ENVIRONMENT IS WHAT POLICING NEEDS AND WHERE, YOU KNOW, THERE'S OPPORTUNITIES TO CHANGE THE OVER-REPRESENTATION OF MAORI IN CRIME STATISTICS ` WHETHER THAT'S VICTIMISATION, OR OFFENDING STATISTICS ` THAT'S SOMETHING THAT OUR COUNTRY HAS GRAPPLED WITH FOR A VERY LONG TIME. ARE YOU OPEN-MINDED ENOUGH TO ACCEPT, THOUGH, WHEN YOU REFLECT ON THAT DATA, THAT` THAT MAYBE YOU COULD BE WRONG ABOUT INSTITUTIONALISED RACISM WITHIN THE ORGANISATION? UH, NO ` AS I SAY, OVER 30 YEARS OF POLICING, I HAVE NOT PERSONALLY SEEN ANY EXAMPLE OF THAT` BUT THE THING IS, IT'S INSTITUTIONALISED, RIGHT? LIKE, IT'S NOT THESE ONE-OFF THINGS. IT'S ACROSS THE ENTIRE SYSTEM. THAT'S THE, KIND OF, NATURE OF IT. YEAH, WELL, LOOK, I WANT TO STAY FOCUSED ON THE POSITIVE. I WANT TO KEEP WORKING REALLY, REALLY HARD. WE HAVE A LOT OF THINGS UNDERWAY RIGHT NOW TO STRENGTHEN, UH... OUR UNDERSTANDING OF CULTURAL COMPETENCY ACROSS A WHOLE LOT OF DIFFERENT, UM... CULTURES. UH, IN NEW ZEALAND, THERE'S A LOT TO BE PROUD OF ` I... THE STATISTICS, AS I SAY, THEY ARE WHAT THEY ARE ` THAT SAYS TO ME, 'WE'VE GOT TO KEEP THINKING ABOUT THIS, BUT IN TERMS OF, YOU KNOW, YOU TALK ABOUT INSTITUTIONAL ISSUES ` NO, I` I WILL CONTINUE TO EMPHATICALLY DENY THAT. SO, AT THE MOMENT, ACCESS TO SEMI-AUTOMATIC FIREARMS WITH HIGH-CAPACITY MAGAZINES IS EXTREMELY TIGHTLY REGULATED, AS I'M SURE YOU'RE AWARE. MM-HM. THE ARMS ACT IS BEING REFORMED AT THE MOMENT. IN PRINCIPLE, WOULD INCREASING ACCESS TO THOSE FIREARMS, EVEN IF THEY'RE TIGHTLY REGULATED, MAKE FRONTLINE POLICE MORE OR LESS SAFE? WELL, IT'S INTERESTING YOU'RE DRAWN INTO THE FRONTLINE POLICE THING. TO ME, IT'S` YOU KNOW, THAT'S ONE COMPONENT OF IT` LET'S BROADEN IT OUT. WOULD IT MAKE THE PUBLIC MORE OR LESS SAFE? I STRUGGLE TO UNDERSTAND WHY YOU WOULD NEED HIGH-POWERED WEAPONRY IN OUR COUNTRY. MM. SO` SO IF ACCESS WAS INCREASED, EVEN IF IT'S TIGHTLY REGULATED AND THERE ARE ALL SORTS OF CHECKS AND BALANCES THAT COME FROM POLICE, DO YOU THINK IT WOULD MAKE THE NEW ZEALAND PUBLIC LESS SAFE IF THERE IS INCREASED ACCESS TO SEMI-AUTOMATIC WEAPONS WITH HIGH-CAPACITY MAGAZINES? YEAH, WELL, LOOK, IF I THINK` IF I THINK ABOUT FIREARMS IN THE POLICING ENVIRONMENT, YOU KNOW, WE SEE` SADLY, WE SEE WEAPONRY USED BY CRIMINALS TO COMMIT CRIME. WE SEE, UM... WE SEE BURGLARIES OCCURRING FOR FIREARMS. MM. IT IS A HARD REALITY TO CONTROL, BUT I BELIEVE THAT WHAT WE ARE WORKING WITH RIGHT NOW GIVES US THE CHANCE TO MAKE IT SAFER, IF CHANGES ARE MADE` AND IT'S NOT FOR ME TO MAKE THE CHANGES ` BUT IF CHANGES ARE MADE THAT STRENGTHEN SAFETY ACROSS THE COUNTRY, THEN THAT'S SURELY GOOD FOR US ALL. OUR JOB IS TO WORK WITH THE MECHANISMS THAT ARE PROVIDED TO US, BOTH LEGISLATIVELY AND RESOURCING, TO... I MEAN` WELL, PUT IT THIS WAY, AS I SAY, JACK, I STRUGGLE TO UNDERSTAND WHAT GOOD SEMI-AUTOMATIC WEAPONS... WHY? IN OUR COUNTRY, I'M NOT SURE THERE'S A NEED FOR THEM, IS THERE? SO... BUT THAT'S ONLY MY VIEW. MM. YOU KNOW? BUT IT` AND IS YOUR VIEW THAT IT WOULD MAKE NEW ZEALAND LESS SAFE? THAT` COMMON SENSE WOULD SUGGEST YES. CORRECT. YOU'VE SAID THAT YOUR PREFERENCE IS FOR POLICE NOT TO BE ROUTINELY ARMED, QUOTE, 'BUT IF AT SOME POINT WE NEED TO HAVE THAT DISCUSSION 'ABOUT WHETHER IT'S TIME TO CONSIDER IT, 'I THINK IT'S AN IMPORTANT DISCUSSION TO HAVE.' WHAT'S THE THRESHOLD FOR THAT CONVERSATION, DO YOU THINK? WELL, LOOK, UM... YES, I'VE SAID THAT. I'LL SAY IT AGAIN ` AS A KIWI, I WANT TO LIVE IN A COUNTRY WHERE POLICE ARE NOT ROUTINELY ARMED. MM. WE'VE DONE A LOT OF WORK OVER THE YEARS TO INCREASE ACCESSIBILITY TO WEAPONS WHEN WE NEED THEM, BUT TO HAVE POLICEMEN, POLICEWOMEN WALKING AROUND COMMUNITIES FEELING LIKE THEY NEED TO WEAR A FIREARM ` I WOULD RATHER THAT DID NOT HAPPEN. YEAH. UH` BUT WHERE'S THE THRESHOLD FOR THAT CONVERSATION? WELL, I HAVEN'T` IF YOU THINK IF IT MIGHT BECOME NECESSARY ` THAT'S WHAT YOU'VE INTIMATED THERE. YEAH. LOOK, I` WHAT WOULD THAT THRESHOLD BE? THERE'S A NUMBER OF FACTORS WE NEED TO CONSIDER HERE. PUBLIC'S OPINION ON THIS AND VIEWS IS VERY, VERY IMPORTANT. LIKE, TO MY... THE OPINION OF MY STAFF ` AT THE MOMENT, WE KNOW THAT THE SURVEYS THAT HAVE BEEN DONE IN THE PAST SORT OF SAY IT'S A BIT... YOU KNOW, IT'S FAIRLY BALANCED IN TERMS OF WHERE THAT IS. UM... BUT ULTIMATELY, I WOULD LIKE TO LIVE IN A COUNTRY WHERE POLICE ARE NOT ROUTINELY ARMED. BUT I'M ALWAYS UP FOR THE CONVERSATION. IF THE CIRCUMSTANCES CHANGE SO SIGNIFICANTLY, THAT THAT'S SOMETHING WE NEED TO CONSIDER ` BUT I HOPE NOT. FINALLY, THEN, I JUST WONDERED IF YOU CAN STEP BACK AND CONSIDER YOUR ROLE AND TALK TO ME A LITTLE BIT ABOUT HOW YOU SEE PRIORITISING PUBLIC SAFETY, AND PRIORITISING PERCEPTIONS ABOUT PUBLIC SAFETY ` HOW IMPORTANT IS IT TO MAKE PEOPLE FEEL SAFE? YEAH, WELL, LET'S HAVE A THINK ABOUT THE RECENT GANG 'LEGE', RIGHT? I MEAN, I'M INCREDIBLY PROUD OF THE FRONT LINE THAT HAS DONE A MARVELLOUS JOB. AND I THINK WE WOULD ALL AGREE THAT THERE WAS A FEW SCEPTICS OUT THERE AS TO WHETHER THAT WAS GOING TO LAND WELL. IT HAS, AND I DO ACKNOWLEDGE THE DECISION-MAKING OF GANG MEMBERS AS WELL, IN TERMS OF THE HIGH COMPLIANCE RATES. NOT EVERYBODY, BUT WE DEAL WITH THEM WHEN WE COME ACROSS THEM. THEY FIND THEMSELVES IN COURT FOR TAKING THE RISK OF WEARING A PATCH. THE FEEDBACK THAT I'M GETTING FROM THE PUBLIC IS THAT THAT ABSENCE OF PATCHES HAS MADE THEM FEEL SAFER. MM. NOW` THAT, I THINK, IS THE ANSWER. MM. UM... BUT AT THE SAME TIME, ORGANISED CRIME, METHAMPHETAMINE DOUBLING ` YOU KNOW, IT'S INTERESTING` OH, SURE. ...TO LOOK AT, LIKE, THE ACTUAL SAFETY VERSUS PERCEPTIONS OF SAFETY. YEAH, YEAH, YOU KNOW, AND I SPENT SOME TIME IN COUNTRIES LAST YEAR OUTSIDE OF NEW ZEALAND WHERE I FELT WALKING DOWN THE STREET, I` THE PERCEPTION OF SAFETY FOR ME, I WAS CHALLENGED. YEAH. IT DIDN'T NECESSARILY MEAN I WAS MORE UNSAFE, BUT PERCEPTION` SO THAT IS WHY PERCEPTIONS OF SAFETY ARE AS IMPORTANT AS ACTUAL SAFETY, AND WE WILL CONTINUE TO WORK REALLY HARD AT THAT. THAT IS ONE OF THE REASONS ` VISIBILITY OF POLICE STAFF ACROSS THE COUNTRY AND COMMUNITIES, CBDS ` I'VE PRIORITISED THAT, I'VE BEEN VERY CLEAR ABOUT THAT. OUR VISIBILITY IN COMMUNITIES MATTERS. MM. AND THE FEEDBACK THAT I'M GETTING FROM THE COMMUNITY ABOUT OUR PRESENCE ` THERE'S A FEW OPINIONS OUT THERE THAT MIGHT THINK A BIT DIFFERENTLY ABOUT THAT, BUT ACTUALLY, OUR PRESENCE IN COMMUNITIES IS WELCOMED. THAT'S POLICE COMMISSIONER RICHARD CHAMBERS. THERE'S A BIT MORE OF OUR CONVERSATION ON OUR YOUTUBE PAGE. IF YOU WANT TO CONTACT THE Q+A TEAM, PLEASE KORERO MAI ` FLICK US AN EMAIL ` QandA@tvnz.co.nz. COMING UP ` WHAT'S THE RUSH? THE GOVERNMENT'S EXTRAORDINARY USE OF URGENCY TO PASS A CONTROVERSIAL BILL. IT CAME WITH NO WARNING ` NO SELECT COMMITTEE PROCESS, NO REGULATORY IMPACT STATEMENT ` NO PARTY WIDELY CAMPAIGNED ON CHANGES TO PAY EQUITY LAWS. THERE WAS NO MENTION IN THE COALITION AGREEMENTS, OR THE GOVERNMENT'S QUARTERLY ACTION PLANS. BUT ON TUESDAY, AFTER A THREE-WEEK RECESS, THE GOVERNMENT ANNOUNCED IT WAS USING URGENCY TO PASS SIGNIFICANT REFORMS. THIS WILL ENSURE THAT THE PAY EQUITY REGIME IS WORKABLE AND SUSTAINABLE. I COMMEND THIS BILL TO THE HOUSE. WE NEEDED TO DO THIS ONE UNDER URGENCY, AND I ALSO DIDN'T WANT TO CREATE A FEAR OF... YOU KNOW, WE HAVE MULTIPLE SYSTEMS ALL AT THE SAME TIME, PEOPLE TRYING TO PUT IN CLAIMS BEFORE THE GOVERNMENT TRIED TO CHANGE THE LAW. WE HAD TO DRAW A CLEAR LINE IN THE SAND. THE LINE IN THE SAND FOR THE EQUAL PAY AMENDMENT ACT MEANT PARLIAMENT DIDN'T FOLLOW ITS USUAL LAW-MAKING PROCESSES, BUT INSTEAD PASSED THE LAW UNDER URGENCY. URGENCY IS A COMMON THING THAT HAPPENS IN A LOT OF PARLIAMENTARY DEMOCRACIES AROUND THE WORLD. IT'S SEEN AS VERY USEFUL TO GIVE THE GOVERNMENT OF THE DAY SOME FLEXIBILITY WHEN IT COMES TO ENACTING LEGISLATION, PARTICULARLY AROUND EMERGENCY CIRCUMSTANCES, OR UNFORESEEN CIRCUMSTANCES THAT REQUIRE AN URGENT LEGISLATIVE RESPONSE. THAT'S WHY IT'S THERE, AND IT'S SORT OF UP TO THE GOVERNMENT OF THE DAY TO TRY AND USE THAT AS RESPONSIBLY AS IT CAN. WHEN GOVERNMENTS PUSH THROUGH LEGISLATION, WHEN THEY USE URGENCY, THEY OFTEN MAKE BAD LAW. AND THAT'S BECAUSE THERE'S NOT ENOUGH SCRUTINY, THERE'S NOT ENOUGH ACCOUNTABILITY ON THOSE THINGS, AND MISTAKES GET MADE. GOVERNMENTS OF ALL STRIPES HAVE USED URGENCY TO PASS LEGISLATION, BUT THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO CONFINE THE PRACTICE TO WHAT'S DEFINED AS GENUINE NEED. LOOK, THE TWO MOST UNCONTROVERSIAL ONES MIGHT BE BUDGET DAY LEGISLATION. IF YOU'RE PUTTING UP THE PRICE OF PETROL TAX BY 20c, YOU KNOW, YOU DON'T WANT` YOU KNOW, DAYS OF QUEUES, SO YOU DO THAT ON BUDGET NIGHT; IF YOU'RE FIXING A MISTAKE THAT COULD HAVE 1000 PRISONERS GOING FREE. THIS ONE'S A BIT DIFFERENT, THOUGH. THIS IS 'WE DON'T WANT THIS ISSUE AROUND FOR SIX MONTHS.' I HAVE NOT SEEN, AND CAN'T SEE, FROM A PUBLIC POLICY POINT OF VIEW HOW YOU JUSTIFY SAYING, 'WE'RE NOT GOING TO LET THE PUBLIC HAVE A SAY.' SINCE 2008, THIS IS THE NUMBER OF BILLS PASSED THROUGH ALL STAGES CONSECUTIVELY UNDER URGENCY ` SO, AVOIDING SELECT COMMITTEE. AFTER AN INITIAL SURGE, THERE WAS A DIP IN THE 2010s BEFORE THINGS PICKED UP AGAIN IN THE COVID YEARS. IT'S WORTH NOTING THE MINISTERS SUPPORTING URGENCY THIS WEEK WERE THE SAME ONES WHO RAILED AGAINST IT IN OPPOSITION... 24 HOURS FOR THE FIRST READING, THE SECOND READING, THE COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE STAGE, AND NOW THE THIRD READING. AS DR DEAN KNIGHT OF VICTORIA UNIVERSITY, THAT VERY FINE LAW SCHOOL, SAYS, SIR, IT IS A CONSTITUTIONAL DISGRACE. I URGE CAUTION, I URGE PUBLIC CONSULTATION. ...AND THE MPS COMPLAINING ABOUT URGENCY THIS WEEK HAPPILY USED IT WHEN IN GOVERNMENT. I MOVE THAT URGENCY BE ACCORDED TO THE COMMITTEE STAGE OF THE WATER SERVICES ENTITIES BILL, THE PASSING THROUGH ALL STAGES OF THE RESIDENTIAL TENANCIES (HEALTHY HOMES STANDARDS) AMENDMENT BILL, THE LAND TRANSPORT CLEAN VEHICLES AMENDMENT BILL NUMBER 2... FOR A LONG TIME, GOVERNMENTS JUST KEEP ON INCREASING THEIR USE OF URGENCY. THIS GOVERNMENT HAS USED IT A LOT MORE THAN PREVIOUS GOVERNMENTS, BUT EVERY GOVERNMENT SEEMS TO SET A NEW RECORD FOR HOW MUCH URGENCY IS USED ` AND ESSENTIALLY ABUSED. THE PUBLIC'S MORE INTERESTED IN DECISIVE ACTION AT THE MOMENT THAN THEY ARE WITH CONSTITUTIONAL NICETIES. WHEN THEY'RE AFFECTED BY LEGISLATION, THEY DESERVE A CHANCE TO PARTICIPATE IN THE LAWMAKING PROCESS. AND SO I THINK THAT'S WHAT CONCERNS THE PUBLIC MOST OF ALL ABOUT THE CONTINUING AND INCREASING USE OF URGENCY. MR SPEAKER! ONE OBVIOUS EFFECT OF THIS WEEK'S LAWMAKING IS THE POTENTIAL FOR A VICIOUS CYCLE. YOU SET A PRECEDENT FOR FUTURE GOVERNMENT. LOOK, LET'S BE HONEST ` ALL GOVERNMENTS AT TIMES HAVE USED URGENCY IN A WAY THAT'S NOT GREAT. SO YOU'VE LOST THAT MORAL RIGHT TO COMPLAIN TO A DEGREE IF THE OTHER PARTY DOES IT WHEN THEY'RE IN GOVERNMENT. THAT FLEXIBILITY ABOUT WHEN URGENCY CAN BE USED IS NOT ACTUALLY A BUG ` IT'S A FEATURE OF THE SYSTEM. FOR THAT REASON, I'M NOT A BIG FAN OF THE IDEAS THAT I'VE SEEN PUT AROUND THAT WE SHOULD HAVE A HIGHER THRESHOLD FOR THE USE OF URGENCY. THE CURRENT THRESHOLD IS THAT THE GOVERNMENT OF THE DAY HAS TO GIVE A REASON FOR THE USE OF URGENCY, AND WHEN THAT HAPPENS, WE SHOULD ALL BE VERY SCEPTICAL AND, UM... QUITE JUDGEMENTAL ABOUT THE QUALITY OF THOSE REASONS. I GUESS WHAT WE REALLY NEED IS SOME SORT OF CROSS-PARTY AGREEMENT NOT TO ABUSE THIS SORT OF MECHANISM. MPs CAN GET TOGETHER AND RAISE THE THRESHOLD TO A SUPERMAJORITY. THERE'S A REASON THEY HAVEN'T DONE THAT. IN LIEU OF THE REGULAR SCRUTINY THIS WEEK, WE DID ASK BROOKE VAN VELDEN TO COME ON Q+A. SHE DECLINED. AFTER THE BREAK ` AS THE AUDITOR GENERAL PREPARES TO FINISH IN HIS ROLE, HE TELLS US HOW NEW ZEALAND CAN IMPROVE TRUST IN GOVERNMENT. WELCOME BACK TO Q+A. IT'S TIME NOW FOR OUR REGULAR LOOK AT THE BISCUIT-TIN BALLOT ` AND THIS WEEK'S MEMBER'S BILL COMES FROM GREEN MP STEVE ABEL. MY NAME IS STEVE ABEL. I'M A GREEN PARTY MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT. MY BILL IS CALLED ANIMAL PRODUCTS (CLOSING THE WELFARE GAP) AMENDMENT BILL. THIS BILL WILL MEAN THAT PRODUCTS IMPORTED TO NEW ZEALAND HAVE TO MEET NEW ZEALAND'S ANIMAL WELFARE STANDARDS. (DETERMINED ELECTRIC GUITAR MUSIC) AS A PRINCIPLE, WE'VE SET IN PLACE THESE HIGH WELFARE STANDARDS IN NEW ZEALAND. THERE'S BEEN GREAT ADVOCACY, AND THE PUBLIC HAVE DEMANDED THAT WE DON'T HAVE SOW STALLS FOR PIGS, WHICH ARE CRUEL, THAT WE DON'T HAVE BATTERY CAGES FOR CHICKENS, AND YET WE'VE GOT A PROBLEM THAT THERE ARE IMPORTED PRODUCTS FROM OVERSEAS THAT DON'T MEET OUR WELFARE STANDARDS. SO THEY'RE BASICALLY UNDERCUTTING OUR HIGH WELFARE STANDARDS, AND UNDERCUTTING LOCAL FARMERS WHO ARE PRODUCING IN A MORE WELFARE-APPROPRIATE WAY. (GUITAR MUSIC CONTINUES) SO, ANIMAL PRODUCTS SOLD IN NEW ZEALAND THAT ARE A CONCERN ARE IMPORTED EGGS, FOR EXAMPLE, AND IMPORTED PORK. ALSO, THERE ARE OTHER THINGS LIKE WOOL PRODUCT, IMPORTED, WHERE MULESING IS USED ON THE LAMBS, WHERE THEY CUT THE FLANKS OF THE LAMBS OFF. IT'S VERY PAINFUL. THAT IS SOMETHING THAT'S BEEN BANNED IN NEW ZEALAND FOR A VERY LONG TIME, AND YET WOOL PRODUCTS FROM SHEEP THAT HAVE BEEN FARMED IN THAT WAY CAN STILL BE IMPORTED TO NEW ZEALAND. (GUITAR MUSIC CONTINUES) SO SOME REALLY GREAT RESEARCH HAS BEEN DONE BY ANIMAL POLICY INTERNATIONAL. THEY ANALYSED THAT THE OVERALL INCREASE IN POTENTIAL COST OF A HIGHER-WELFARE PORK PRODUCT, FOR EXAMPLE, MIGHT BE AS LITTLE AS 7c TO 74c PER WEEK FOR THE AVERAGE NEW ZEALAND CONSUMER. (GUITAR MUSIC CONTINUES) THERE'S A PRINCIPLE IN INTERNATIONAL TRADE WHERE A COUNTRY THAT HAS A HIGH MORAL VALUE, SUCH AS WANTING TO PROTECT THE WELFARE OF ANIMALS, THEREFORE HAS A BASIS FOR RESTRICTING CERTAIN THINGS. SO IN THE EU, THERE'S A RESTRICTION ON THE IMPORT OF CAT AND DOG FUR, FOR EXAMPLE. HERE IN NEW ZEALAND, 80% OF NEW ZEALANDERS WANT TO SEE THIS PARTICULAR CHANGE MADE. SO THERE'S A STRONG MORAL BASIS FOR US TAKING THIS POSITION. THE AUDITOR GENERAL PLAYS AN ABSOLUTELY VITAL ROLE IN OUR DEMOCRACY, INDEPENDENTLY OVERSEEING PUBLIC SPENDING AND PERFORMANCE. JOHN RYAN IS ABOUT TO FINISH UP AS AUDITOR GENERAL AFTER SEVEN YEARS IN THE ROLE. WELL, I GUESS IN THE SIMPLEST TERMS, WE'RE HERE TO HELP ENSURE THE GOVERNMENT IS HONEST, HONEST ABOUT THE WAY IT ACCOUNTS FOR ITS MONEY AND HONEST ABOUT ITS PERFORMANCE. ACCORDING TO RECENT RESEARCH BY THE HELEN CLARK FOUNDATION, ONLY 42% OF NEW ZEALANDERS TRUST THE GOVERNMENT TO ACT IN PEOPLE'S BEST INTERESTS MOST OR ALL OF THE TIME. SO, IF YOUR JOB IS TO KEEP THE GOVERNMENT HONEST, WHY DO YOU THINK WE'RE SEEING THOSE KIND OF NUMBERS? YEAH, I THINK IT'S A REALLY CONCERNING ISSUE WHEN PEOPLE DO NOT TRUST THE PUBLIC SECTOR, DO NOT TRUST THE GOVERNMENT. THE PUBLIC SECTOR RELIES ON TRUST TO BE EFFECTIVE AND EFFICIENT, SO IT'S A REALLY KEY QUESTION. FROM MY POINT OF VIEW, YOU KNOW, FRAME I THINK ABOUT IS... IS THE IS THE GOVERNMENT COMPETENT? DOES IT DO WHAT IT SAYS IT DO? SO, WHEN I TURN UP AT HOSPITAL WANTING A HIP REPLACED, DO I COME OUT WITH A NEW HIP AND, UM, RESUME MY LIFE? IS IT RELIABLE? DOES IT DO IT IN GOOD TIMES AND BAD? DOES IT DO IT NOW? BUT I DON'T NEED A HIP REPLACEMENT NOW, BUT IN 10 YEARS TIME, I MIGHT. SO, IS IT RELIABLE? COMPETENT ` RELIABLE. BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY, I THINK PEOPLE JUDGE THE GOVERNMENT ON WHETHER THEY THINK IT'S HONEST, WHETHER THE PUBLIC SECTOR IS HONEST, UNDERPINNED BY SOME FORM OF RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE PUBLIC SECTOR AND THE PEOPLE THEY SERVE. SO I THINK ALL OF THAT IS PART OF THE QUESTION THAT WE NEED TO DIG INTO. MY CONCERN ON THAT HAS BEEN HOW DO WE KNOW? HOW DOES THE GOVERNMENT REPORT ABOUT THOSE THINGS ` COMPETENCE, RELIABILITY, HONESTY? AND I THINK THAT'S REALLY BEEN ONE OF MY KEY FOCUS AREAS AS AUDITOR-GENERAL. I'M GOING TO ASK YOU ABOUT THAT DETAIL IN A COUPLE OF MINUTES, AND SOME OF THAT PERFORMANCE REPORTING. BUT IF YOU CONSIDER THOSE THREE METRICS FROM A MACRO LENS, HOW IS NEW ZEALAND DOING? WELL, I THINK IN TERMS OF, YOU KNOW, RELATIVELY SMALL LIBERAL DEMOCRACIES, WE'RE UP THERE. WE'RE AS GOOD AS SOME OF THE BEST. I THINK THAT WHAT I SEE, THOUGH, IS THAT SOME PARTS OF OUR SOCIETY ARE NOT TRUSTING THE GOVERNMENT TO THE SAME EXTENT AS OTHERS. SO, MAORI TYPICALLY HAVE LOWER TRUST. PACIFIC PEOPLE HAVE TYPICALLY LOWER TRUST. THOSE WITH DISABILITIES TYPICALLY HAVE LOWER TRUST. AND I'VE BEEN QUITE INTERESTED IN THAT BECAUSE I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, THE PUBLIC SERVICE NEEDS TO DELIVER FOR EVERY NEW ZEALANDER. WHEN I LOOKED AT THE PARTICULAR CONCERNS THAT MAORI HAVE EXPRESSED TO ME THROUGH SOME OF THE RESEARCH AND OTHER WORK WE'VE DONE, WELL, ONE STORY ACTUALLY STICKS IN MY MIND, AND THAT'S, UH, WE INTERVIEWED, THROUGH THE RESEARCHERS, ONE CHAP, AND HE SAID, 'YOU KNOW, I COMPLETELY GET IT 'WHEN THERE IS MAYBE A DATA BREACH ON A PUBLIC SECTOR WEBSITE, 'I GET THAT THE PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSIONER GETS ACTIVATED, 'A CHIEF EXECUTIVE IS ROLLED OUT IN FRONT OF TELEVISION CAMERAS 'AND HAS A SPEECH, SOMETHING LIKE, "THIS SHOULDN'T HAVE HAPPENED. "I'VE LOOKED AT IT. I KNOW WHAT HAPPENED. I'M GOING TO FIX IT. "YOU CAN HAVE CONFIDENCE IN ME." 'I COMPLETELY GET IT. THAT'S REALLY IMPORTANT. 'BUT OVER HERE, MAORI HAVE SAT AT THE BOTTOM OF EVERY SOCIAL 'AND ECONOMIC INDICATOR IN THIS COUNTRY FOR GENERATIONS. 'WHERE'S THE PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION? 'WHERE'S THAT CHIEF EXECUTIVE IN FRONT OF THE CAMERA SAYING, "I KNOW WHAT'S GOING WRONG FOR MY AGENCY. I'VE LOOKED AT THAT. "BE ASSURED I'M GOING TO FIX IT, "AND YOU CAN HOLD ME TO ACCOUNT FOR THAT."' AND WHEN I HEARD THAT STORY, IT KIND OF CENTRED ME ON THAT ISSUE OF TRUST. YOU KNOW, UNLESS SOMEONE CAN FEEL THE PUBLIC SECTOR SERVING THEIR NEEDS, RELATING TO THEM IN A WAY THAT THEY CAN UNDERSTAND, THEN OF COURSE TRUST IS HARD TO EARN. SO, THAT'S A KIND OF A FUNDAMENTAL POINT, RIGHT? THAT WHAT YOU ARE ASSERTING IS THAT THOSE GROUPS WHO ARE LEAST LIKELY TO TRUST THE GOVERNMENT ARE THOSE WHO HAVE NOT BEEN SERVED BY GOVERNMENT. POTENTIALLY, YES. I THINK THAT THAT'S A STORY FROM OUR RESEARCH, WHICH I THINK CENTRED MY THINKING AROUND THAT AND ABOUT HOW THE PUBLIC SECTOR DOES CONNECT TO MAORI. AND SOME OF THE OTHER THINGS THAT CAME OUT OF THAT I THOUGHT WERE RELEVANT NOT JUST TO MAORI, BUT TO EVERY NEW ZEALANDER. SO... A RELATIONSHIP WITH THE PUBLIC SECTOR NEEDS TO BE RECIPROCAL. WE NEED TO SHARE INFORMATION WITH THE PUBLIC, TRUST THE PUBLIC. WE NEED TO HAVE A RELATIONSHIP WITH PEOPLE AS WELL AS AGENCIES. AND I THINK THAT'S QUITE HARD FOR THE PUBLIC SECTOR, BUT IT'S ALSO ACHIEVABLE. ONE OF THE OTHER THINGS THAT CAME OUT OF THAT WAS THAT TIKANGA ` DOING THINGS THE RIGHT WAY BUILDS TRUST. AND LASTLY, THE PUBLIC SECTOR UNDERSTANDING THAT THERE'S THIS MASSIVE POWER IMBALANCE BETWEEN PUBLIC OFFICIALS AND THE PUBLIC THEY SERVE, AND HOW CAN THEY WORK WITH THAT POWER IMBALANCE? AND THAT AGAIN, CAME HOME TO ME ONCE WHEN I WAS MEETING A MAORI GROUP, WHO SAID TO ME, 'YOU KNOW, I'VE TAKEN A DAY'S LEAVE 'TO COME AND MEET YOU, BUT YOU'VE BEEN PAID TO COME TO THIS MEETING.' AND EVEN AT THAT BASIC LEVEL, HOW IS THE PUBLIC SECTOR BALANCING THE` BALANCING THE PLAYING FIELD FOR THOSE THAT IT SERVES? YOU'VE SAID THAT ABOUT 85% OF YOUR OFFICE'S ROLE IS THE KIND OF CORE AUDITING FUNCTION. IT'S THE 15% WHERE YOU HAVE A LITTLE BIT MORE INDEPENDENCE, YOU HAVE A LITTLE BIT MORE FLEXIBILITY IN THE KINDS OF THINGS THAT YOU CONSIDER IN THE INQUIRIES YOU HOLD. THAT'S AN INCREDIBLE SCOPE FOR SOMEONE IN YOUR ROLE. SO HOW DO YOU DECIDE WHAT TO LOOK INTO? YEAH, I THINK THAT YOU'VE HIT A VERY IMPORTANT POINT THERE, THERE IS IMMENSE DISCRETION FOR THE AUDITOR GENERAL, AND THAT'S BECAUSE THE AUDITOR GENERAL REPORTS TO PARLIAMENT AND NEEDS TO KEEP AN EYE ON GOVERNMENT, SO CAN'T BE DIRECTED BY THE GOVERNMENT. IT IS A CHALLENGE FOR US. WE HAVE SOME BIG THEMES THAT WE'RE INTERESTED IN. AND SO, WE MOVE THOSE THROUGH TIME, LIKE PERFORMANCE REPORTING OF THE GOVERNMENT, LONG-TERM PLANNING, VALUE FOR MONEY. THOSE SORTS OF THINGS CARRY ON. EACH YEAR I SURVEY A REPRESENTATIVE GROUP OF NEW ZEALANDERS TO SEE WHAT THEY'RE INTERESTED IN. SO THIS YEAR, FOR EXAMPLE, WHAT'S COME OUT OF THAT IS` IS THE WAY THE EDUCATION SYSTEM IS DEALING WITH BULLYING IN SCHOOLS, WHICH I WOULDN'T HAVE PICKED UP OTHERWISE. I HAVE ADVISORY GROUPS ` MAORI ADVISORY GROUP, LOCAL AND CENTRAL GOVERNMENT ` AND OF COURSE, EVERY DAY OF THE WEEK WE'RE INSIDE PUBLIC ORGANISATIONS, ASKING QUESTIONS AND LOOKING AT WHAT THEY'RE DOING. SO WE GATHER A LOT OF INTELLIGENCE FROM OUR CORE WORK AS WELL. YOU'VE ANNOUNCED THAT YOU'RE GOING TO BE LOOKING INTO THE PROVISIONING OF THE SCHOOL LUNCH PROGRAMME. WHY? WELL, IT IS A MATTER OF INTENSE PUBLIC INTEREST. IT IS A MATTER OF PERFORMANCE FOR THE PUBLIC SECTOR, AND IT'S GOT A LOT OF MONEY ATTACHED TO IT. SO FOR THOSE REASONS, IT WOULD ALWAYS GET MY ATTENTION. WHAT AREAS OF PUBLIC POLICY IN NEW ZEALAND DO YOU THINK STAND OUT TO YOU AS MOST SIGNIFICANTLY UNDERPERFORMING FOR THE PUBLIC? WELL, I DON'T COMMENT ON GOVERNMENT POLICY, BUT IN TERMS OF PUBLIC SECTOR PERFORMANCE, I THINK THERE'S PROBABLY TWO OR THREE AREAS THAT I WOULD CALL OUT. FIRSTLY, IN THE CONTEXT OF ANYTHING I SAY, THE PUBLIC SECTOR IN NEW ZEALAND DOES A PRETTY GOOD JOB, AND I DON'T KNOW IF WE'VE QUITE ACKNOWLEDGED THEM ENOUGH FOR THE WORK THEY DID DURING COVID AND THE EXTRAORDINARY CHALLENGE OF THAT WORK AND EXTRAORDINARY CIRCUMSTANCES AND VERY SHORT TIME FRAME, SO... THE CONTEXT OF THE AUDITOR-GENERAL IS I OFTEN SAY GOOD THINGS, BUT NO ONE EVER REPORTS THEM, SO... (CHUCKLES) I JUST WANT TO MAKE THAT POINT EARLY ON. BUT, YOU KNOW, MY ROLE HERE IS ALSO TO POINT OUT THE THINGS THAT DON'T GO WELL. SO SOME OF THE THINGS I REALLY FOCUSED IN ON IS LETTING THE PUBLIC KNOW HOW WELL YOU'RE GOING, HAVING AN HONEST CONVERSATION WITH THE PUBLIC ABOUT YOUR PERFORMANCE ` WHAT WENT WELL, WHAT DIDN'T GO WELL ` AND TAKING THE TIME TO EXPLAIN TO THE PUBLIC THE COMPLEXITIES AND THE CHALLENGES THAT YOU ARE ADDRESSING AS A PUBLIC AGENCY. AT THE MOMENT, THAT JUST DOESN'T HAPPEN VERY WELL. IT DOESN'T HAPPEN VERY WELL, REALLY, ACROSS MOST AGENCIES. SO I THINK ONE AREA THAT I WOULD SAY THE PUBLIC SERVICE COULD REALLY STEP UP AND UP ON IS THE WAY IT RELATES TO NEW ZEALAND ABOUT ITS PERFORMANCE, HAVING REALLY FRANK AND HONEST CONVERSATIONS ABOUT THAT. AND I SEE SOME IMPROVEMENTS THERE. I ALSO SEE SOME GOOD PRACTICE, BUT GENERALLY SPEAKING, THAT'S NOW PIQUED THE INTEREST OF PARLIAMENT. AND SO THEY WILL LOOK INTO THAT AS WELL. SO, YEAH, THAT'S ONE AREA. I THINK THE OTHER IS, YOU KNOW, IN THE MOMENT, DELIVERY IS REALLY IMPORTANT. AND IT'S NOT FOR ME TO CRITICISE THAT. THE PUBLIC SERVICE IS REALLY FOCUSED ON DELIVERY, BUT THEY ALSO NEED TO BE FOCUSED ON THAT LONG TERM-SITUATION AS WELL. YOU KNOW, SOMETIMES WHEN WE LOOK AT ISSUES THAT HAVE ARISEN, THERE HAD BEEN PREVIOUS REPORTS THAT HAD BEEN DONE, BUT MAYBE THE ACTIONS HAVEN'T BEEN TAKEN. WE KNOW WE'VE GOT ANOTHER PANDEMIC WILL ARRIVE AT SOME POINT. ARE WE READY FOR THAT? SO THOSE KEY` BALANCING THE SHORT-TERM AND LONG-TERM. AND THEN, PROBABLY A FAVOURITE OF MANY IS JUST HOW WELL DOES THE PUBLIC SECTOR WORK TOGETHER WHEN ISSUES ARE COMPLEX AND NEED MULTIPLE AGENCIES TO WORK TOGETHER? SO PROBABLY THOSE ARE THE THREE THAT I PULL OUT. HAVE YOU EVER FACED SUBTLE OR OVERT PRESSURE TO CHANGE OR DELAY A REPORT? NO. I GET FEEDBACK ON MY REPORTS, BUT I CAN'T RECALL ANYONE SAYING, 'YOU MUST CHANGE SOMETHING,' UNLESS I'VE GOT SOMETHING WRONG. SO, I DO SHARE DRAFTS OF MY MAJOR REPORTS WITH THE AGENCIES AFFECTED. SOMETIMES THEY'LL POINT OUT THAT I'VE NOT INTERPRETED SOMETHING FAIRLY, OR I HAVEN'T PUT BALANCE INTO THE REPORT, AND I WILL CHANGE IF THAT'S TRUE. HAVEN'T PUT BALANCE INTO THE REPORT? WELL, SOMETIMES AGENCIES WILL SAY, 'LOOK, THAT WAS TRUE, BUT WE'VE DONE ALL THIS SINCE, 'AND COULD YOU JUST MENTION THAT WE'RE ACTUALLY ON THE RIGHT PATH?' AND IF THEY HAVE, THEY CAN PRODUCE EVIDENCE OF THAT, THEN OF COURSE, I'LL SAY THAT. I WANT TO TALK ABOUT CORRUPTION. THINK NEW ZEALAND HAS SLIPPED A COUPLE OF PLACES IN TRANSPARENCY INTERNATIONAL'S CORRUPTION PERCEPTIONS INDEX, AND THAT 'PERCEPTIONS' WORD IS VERY IMPORTANT WHEN CONSIDERING THIS. SO, WE'RE NOW FOURTH, WHICH, YOU KNOW, IN THE CONTEXT OF THE WORLD IS STILL RELATIVELY GOOD, BUT IS SLIPPING THOSE PLACES A CONCERN FOR YOU? YES, IT IS. WHY? I THINK IT GOES BACK TO THAT ISSUE OF TRUST. WE ALL NEED TO TRUST THAT THE PUBLIC SERVICE OFFICE OPERATES WITH INTEGRITY, OPERATES HONESTLY, AND WHEN WE SEE THE BROADER PUBLIC SECTOR HAVING ISSUES WITH THAT, THEN TRUST IN GOVERNMENT, TRUST IN THE PUBLIC SECTOR REDUCES, AND I THINK THAT'S A RISK FOR ANY COUNTRY, ANY DEMOCRACY. IT'S A PERCEPTIONS INDEX, SO IT DOESN'T NECESSARILY REFLECT ALL THE WORK THAT I DO. I SEE A PUBLIC SERVICE THAT REALLY FOCUSES ON INTEGRITY AND HONESTY IN ITS PERFORMANCE, SO I DON'T SEE THAT MYSELF. BUT I DO SEE SOME RECURRING ISSUES, WHICH CAN FEED INTO PERCEPTION. CONFLICT OF INTEREST MANAGEMENT IN PROCUREMENT IS ONE OF THOSE MATTERS THAT I'VE RAISED A NUMBER OF TIMES. THE PUBLIC SECTOR SPENDS, I THINK IT'S 40 OR $50 BILLION A YEAR ON PROCUREMENT. YEAH. SECONDLY... IT'S A WINDOW INTO THE PUBLIC SECTOR FOR THE PUBLIC AND THE PRIVATE SECTOR WHEN THEY ENGAGE WITH AN AGENCY AROUND PROCUREMENT. SO IT DOES IT DOES AFFECT PERCEPTION. AND THIRDLY, YOU KNOW, THERE ARE COMPLEX PROCESSES TO DO BIG PROCUREMENTS WELL, AND SOMETIMES AGENCIES DON'T DO THAT. I WANT TO FINISH THIS CONVERSATION AS WE STARTED, THEN, BY THINKING ABOUT TRUST IN NEW ZEALAND. WHAT WOULD YOU SAY IS THE GREATEST RISK TO TRUST IN NEW ZEALAND'S PUBLIC SERVICE AS IT STANDS, AND WHERE IS OUR GREATEST OPPORTUNITY TO IMPROVE IT? THE GREATEST RISK TO TRUST IS NOT CONNECTING THE PUBLIC SERVICE TO THE PUBLIC IT SERVES, AND NOT TURNING ITS MIND TO THAT CONNECTION. I THINK THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE PUBLIC SECTOR AND THE IDEA THAT, YOU KNOW... A PUBLIC SERVANT FROM WELLINGTON IS A KIND OF` ALMOST A TERM OF ABUSE IN SOME CIRCLES, I THINK, IS A REAL RISK TO THE DEDICATED AND HARD-WORKING PEOPLE IN THE PUBLIC SECTOR AND THE SERVICES THEY PROVIDE TO US. SO I THINK BUILDING A NARRATIVE OF TRUST AND RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE PUBLIC SECTOR AND THE PUBLIC OF NEW ZEALAND IS REALLY IMPORTANT. THE PUBLIC SECTOR DOES WONDERFUL WORK IN MANY WAYS FOR NEW ZEALAND, AND I DON'T SEE THAT AS AMPLIFIED AS SOME OF THE MISTAKES THAT HAPPEN IN THE PUBLIC SECTOR. IT'S ONE THIRD OF THE ECONOMY. THERE'S, YOU KNOW, 400,000 PEOPLE IN IT OR MORE. THINGS ARE GOING TO HAPPEN THAT PEOPLE DON'T LIKE. THINGS ARE GOING TO GO WRONG. WE ALWAYS SEE THOSE. WE DON'T SEE THE FACT THAT 99% OF THE TIME THINGS ACTUALLY GO WELL AND GO RIGHT. AND I THINK IT'S THE BALANCE OF THE NARRATIVE. WE STILL NEED TO HOLD THE PUBLIC SECTOR TO ACCOUNT. OF COURSE WE DO. THAT'S SUCH AN IMPORTANT PART OF OUR ECONOMY, OF OUR COUNTRY AND OUR LIFESTYLES. ON THE OTHER HAND, THAT'S NOT THE WHOLE STORY, AND THAT'S WHAT I THINK THE PUBLIC SECTOR NEEDS TO TELL BETTER. HEI AKUANEI ` WE'RE BACK AFTER THE BREAK. KUA MUTU ` THAT'S Q+A FOR THIS WEEK. FROM THE Q+A TEAM, THANKS FOR WATCHING ` AND HEY ` HAPPY MOTHER'S DAY! HEI TERA WIKI ` SEE YOU NEXT SUNDAY AT 9AM. CAPTIONS BY LENA ERAKOVICH AND JASON CONRAN. 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