- Tuia i runga, tuia i raro, ka rongo te po, ka rongo te ao, i te korero, i te wananga. Haumi e, hui e, taiki e. This week on The Hui ` Does the Minister for Housing, Infrastructure and the RMA agree with David Seymour that funding targeting Maori is racist? - I mean, I think you've got to unpick that a little bit. - We speak to Minister Chris Bishop in Parliament. And Nga Morehu are presented with their King's Service Order medals for their ongoing advocacy for children abused in state care. - I feel blessed to be in this space as I am, to represent those that feel they don't have a voice. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2025 - Nga mate ka riro ki Tapoko o Te Rangi, haere mai, haere! Tatou kei te ao marama, tihewa mauri ora, and welcome back to The Hui. He is the minister with a reputation for getting things done. Exactly what the cost of getting things done is, and whether that is doing it with or without Maori is the question we put to the Honourable Chris Bishop in Parliament this week. Minister, tena koe. Thank you very much for your time. - Good to be here. - Really appreciate it. Gee, you wear a lot of hats. - (CHUCKLES) Yeah. - What are you looking for, in terms of the way that you engage with Maori on things like housing and infrastructure, transport and RMA ` they're big issues. - Yeah, and they're all different, right? But, I mean, the most fundamental point is just engagement. When it comes to RM reform, for example, Maori are a critical part of the resource management system right now. And so working with Pou Taiao, who are the sort of iwi leaders to do with resource management reforms, talking to them around the future role of Maoridom within the resource management system, it's really important, both from an Article 2 Treaty point of view, but also the existing rights through Treaty settlements that are reflected in the RMA now ` there's quite a close interaction between settlements that the Crown has entered into in good faith, many of which actually refer to specific sections of the resource management system. So as we transition into a new planning regime, the Resource Management Act's being done away with, but there'll be two new acts ` an Environment Act and a Planning Act. As we transition to that new regime, it's really important that the Crown upholds the settlements entered into in good faith. Now, there's a degree of complexity around how we do that. - So how do you deal with that complexity? Because there's some concern, particularly at the grassroots level ` hapu who have to deal with councils... - Yes. - ...and who may feel like when it comes to things like the Treaty principles ` actually, no, kaitiakitanga, which is a big thing, guardianship over waterways and things like that. So how do you deal with complexities not just so that national iwi leaders level, but also at hapu levels, where they say they have rights and obligations under Te Tiriti? - Yes. So, there's a couple of things going on. The first is, it's absolutely paramount for this government that we protect settlements that have been entered into in good faith. They need to be durable and long-lasting. And when the Crown signed them, and when iwi signed them as well, they're full and final, and they reflect a range of rights and obligations that both sides entered into in good faith. So we've got to port those settlements into the new planning regime. And they vary, in terms of obligations from the Crown and the role of PSGEs in the system. So there's a degree of complexity around exactly what those arrangements are, and some are more bespoke than others ` you take Waikato, for example, the arrangements around the Waikato River, they are... - Co-management. - Co-management and... And quite heavy involvement in the planning regime around the Waikato River. That's an order of magnitude different to some other settlements, which are more statutory acknowledgements, more sort of lower-level involvement in plans and things like that. So we're just working our way through that. I'm really confident there's a pathway through. It's not a problem that we can't solve. Where there's a will, there's a way. Then there's the broader issue, which I think you're touching upon as well, which is more Article 2, and the existing provisions in the RMA, Section 6(e), which refers to ancestral lands and refers to taonga and protecting those rights as well. And we're just working our way through that in good faith with iwi, but also not just iwi as well, because there's Maori land trusts and a whole variety of different entities out there that have interests in the system as well. So we don't have a final decision, but there will be a role to reflect and protect Article 2 Treaty rights in the new system. And actually, the protection of ancestral land, for example, predates the RMA. In fact, it predates the Town and Country Planning Act 1977, so it goes all the way back to many variations of our planning law in the past. And so protecting those rights are really important, and we will do that. How we do that, Cabinet has yet to make a decision on. And of course, customary rights is its own other thing, entirely. - But still has place, in your view? - Yes. - Because they have good outcomes for communities, right? - Customary title and customary rights predate the Treaty. People often forget this. They are a part of the common law. And the reason why, you know, when my ancestors turned up here ` on my mum's side of the family, I'm descended from people who turned up here on the first ships into Petone, into Pito-one Harbour ` where I grew up, or near where I grew up ` in 1842-1844. Customary law predates English settlement into New Zealand. And the Court of Appeal and Supreme court has found that on a number of occasions. So customary rights and customary title are important. - I want to talk a bit about housing. And in particular the change ` well, the movement of money from Whai Kainga Whai Oranga into the flexible fund. Why do that? - So, what we're trying to do with the housing system is move away from bespoke funds towards a much more flexible system that empowers communities and people delivering housing in communities. And so the way it works at the moment is government's got an Affordable Housing Fund, they've got a Progressive Home Ownership Fund, they've got Whai Kainga Whai Oranga. There's about 20 different programmes, if you look through the appropriations. And what happens at the moment is people come up with a bright idea, and then they go and find a fund to fit within. And if the money's run out, they have to go and change their programme to find another particular initiative. What we're trying to do is create a housing system which is much more flexible about what it can invest in. And my three principles are the following ` right house, right place, right people. Our system does not build the right houses in the right place for the right people at the moment. Right house, for example? 60% of people on the social housing register need a one-bedroom unit. Kainga Ora a has 12% of its stock are one-bedrooms. We haven't been procuring and buying one-bedroom units. We haven't been building in the right places. We know where the housing need is. It's right around the country, but there are particular pockets of need where... We haven't done a very good job of calibrating what the government does and where we build. And then right people as well. Within that system, one of the things that has been happening over the last five years is very positive developments around... - Toitu Tairawhiti, for example. - Toitu Tairawhiti. Where we just we just we just made an announcement the other day of 50 million bucks or so for around 150 rentals. And that's precisely the sort of thing that the system can now do. Because what we're gonna do is transition the system to say we wanna build the right houses and the right places for the right people. And that will involve partnering with the community housing sector, it will also involve partnering with iwi in some circumstances, community housing providers that are Maori-backed, or it may involve other Maori entities that have land. Because critically, often what they can bring to the table is land. And then the Crown comes in over the top, or central government comes in over the top, with a bit of capital funding or a bit of operating funding ` whatever it takes to make it work ` very affordable development of land, which is in everyone's interest. So the system will become much more flexible. We will publish an investment strategy in which we say, here's what we want to build, here's how we want to build it. And basically, it'll be a contestable process. And within that, there will be a role for ` as I say ` for a range of Maori providers. - Because when people see the loss of ` I don't know the best way to put it ` discrete funding, right, going into a flexible fund, it looks like a mainstreaming approach to try and get an outcome that's already being delivered upon, like the likes of Toitu Tairawhiti and others that we mentioned. What's your response to that? - Well, I understand that. And I can understand why people will be potentially a little bit anxious about it. The point I would say is, we are really keen to partner with groups like Toitu Tairawhiti. You know, there's the development of Tainui around Hamilton, which we funded earlier in the year as well. And Tama Potaka in charge of this area and has a range of relationships, as does central government as well. And so there is a range of different things we can do. And groups like those will be part of the solution. Because for me, it's about value for money, partnering with regions that need housing and focusing on the right people. And it just so happens that those are often Maori communities in need who need affordable rentals, they need, sometimes, social housing. They also need the wraparound support that the Crown, the central government, is quite bad at providing, frankly. So there's gonna be a role for some of these groups that you're talking about. - So, papakainga developments and things like that are still very much on the table, is what you are saying. - Actually, papakainga, we are publishing a national environmental standard for papakainga. Now, what that means in practice is that every council around the country will be required to have rules that enable papakainga housing. So, some councils are really good at it at the moment. Other councils have nothing in their district plans around papakainga, or they might have something, but it's, you know, basically not really well developed. We will be publishing ` through the existing RMA, but it will transition into the new one ` a national environmental standard for papakainga, in the same way that we're doing the same thing for granny flats. And so that will set consistent national rules around papakainga, and it will require every council to enable papakainga in their particular relevant district that they're talking about. It's a big step forward. Doesn't exist right now. We've spent the last year developing that. - And that's been done in consultation directly with Maori, not just iwi leaders, but also local community development groups. - Ministry of the Environment and Te Puni Kokiri have been leading that, and Tama has been involved in it, Tama Potaka, but it's actually in my RM portfolio in Housing. - Kia u e te iwi. He korero ano ki te Minita e haere ake nei. Part two with Minister Chris Bishop, after this. - E haere turu te korero whare, engari he korero whare mo te hunga rangatahi te haere ake nei. In part two of our korero with Minister Chris Bishop, we talk about rangatahi homelessness and also his view on targeted funding for Maori possibly being racist. Can I ask you a question about rangatahi homelessness? - Yes. - We've talked to advocates who have some real concerns. In fact, if you talk to Pa Piringa, Mahera Maihi, she says that a number of people that she has dealt with, they have applied for housing, emergency housing ` 100% of them have failed, and that's mainly because there's been a focus on families, not on youth. You talk to other advocates who say that there are people as young as 11, 12 and 13 who have no housing at the moment. And because of the result of the budget decision taken last year for the $20 million for rangatahi transitional housing, it has had an impact now. What is your response to what they're saying? - mean, the first thing I would say is, homelessness is a tragedy. And part of my driving force of being in politics is to get homeless... You know, no one wants a world in which homelessness exists. It is to do as much as we can to eliminate the housing register and eliminate homelessness. I'm trying to build a housing system that means more affordable rentals, that means greater home ownership rates, but also means that people who need a warm, dry home can live in dignity. It's the most fundamental thing that the government can do to help everyone in society. In terms of emergency housing, you've gotta think about where we came from and where we've got to. So, we came into government, there were over 3000 families living in emergency housing motels. Many had been there for a very long time. One of the first things we did in government was set up a thing called Priority One, which said if you're in emergency housing and you've got kids and you've been there for 12 weeks or longer, you go to the top of the waitlist to get out. Now we have just over 500 families in emergency housing. They were costing the government 30 million bucks a month. The last government spent $1.5 billion on emergency housing in motels. We've now got that number down. But most importantly, we've got people into warm, dry homes. Those people are going into social housing, some cases private rentals, some cases transitional housing. In terms of emergency housing, the access to it, it will always be there for people who need it. So the rules are really clear. If you are in severe and urgent need of housing and you turn up to MSD, the support is available to those who need it. I'm fully aware of the issues around youth homelessness. And there are a complex series of problems there. The government is not particularly good at the interventions and the support required to help people in need. We've got a work programme underway to make sure that the funding that is in the system now ` of which there's hundreds of millions of dollars, by the way ` is much more calibrated and tailored to those in need. No one wants to see a world in which there is youth homelessness, in particular. And we've gotta get the system geared up to deal with it better. - So what do these youth that are not being housed at the moment, and who are coming to the end of the cycle of the emergency housing arrangements that they have currently ` so, for example, at Pa Piringa, they're coming to the end of their one year. Where do they go? What do they do? Because at the moment, the only option they've got now is back on the streets, not safe. - Well, I don't wanna see a situation in which that happens. There will be a range of support available for them. Emergency housing is there as a last resort. There's also transitional housing, and there's a range of providers working across the homelessness intervention space. We fund a lot of that. There's always more we can do. But the most fundamental thing we can do is fix the housing system so that rents are more affordable, home ownership is a greater possibility, and that we have more providers accessing the support that people need. - OK. I want to talk about infrastructure. You'll be aware, iwi are really keen to get involved in infrastructure. - Yes. - How do you see your role in that space? Do you see your role as ` I know minister, but as an advocate? Or a facilitator? Or a relationship builder between international investors involved in infrastructure, with iwi? - I mean, both, to be honest. I mean, um... One of the things about the Infrastructure Summit that we had earlier in the year, in March, was the involvement of iwi leaders. This is about investment more generally into New Zealand. And so we don't just want it to be about the public sector partnering with private capital. We want to focus on things like aquaculture, things like energy and things like that. There's huge interest from overseas. And it's part of the unique New Zealand experience and part of investing in New Zealand to partner with iwi. Because what they do is bring capital to the table. And so there is any number of opportunities ` or will be over the forthcoming years ` for iwi capital to partner with private capital around the deployment of infrastructure in New Zealand, both private infrastructure, but also public sector infrastructure as well. - We're talking iwi across the board. Where they are wanting to play in this space, there is an opportunity to do that, and you've got an open door, in terms of wanting to have those talks? - Absolutely. End of the day, it's a contestable process. Take the Northland Expressway public private partnership, for example. There's a range of consortia that are forming around that, from a construction and a funding and financing point of view. And I suspect many of them will be reaching out to iwi in New Zealand in order to have them crowd in some money. And that would be a good thing for New Zealand. - There seems to be a lot of focus on roads too, right? The phrase that I heard was, 'The roads are the new pine trees of New Zealand.' - We do want to build a few. But there's other opportunities. Energy's a classic, right? - OK. - I mean, take geothermal energy, where a range of iwi have interests now already. There's huge potential there. - Yep. - You know? We have an infrastructure deficit. It's not like there's a lack of stuff to build. (CHUCKLES) - What happens, though, for example, where there is a requirement for funding sources to be confirmed and iwi don't have enough money to be big players in it. Does that shut the door on them? - No, it doesn't. I mean, it depends on the project, depends on the investments and depends on the investors you're talking about. But I think if you just go up a level, many of them have money, they have an active interest in deploying that capital in a way that gets a return for them and grows their pie, so to speak. And it's the same with people investing from offshore. So there's any number of opportunities. I'm really excited about it. It's one of the most amazing success stories in New Zealand post-1995, right, through the first settlement, the most amazing story of entrepreneurship and success for New Zealand. When you think about what Ngai Tahu's been able to do, Waikato with the Brookfield investment. That's a billion-dollar investment with Tainui into the development of essentially an inland port, a transport and logistics hub, providing jobs and growth for not only the Waikato but also Tainui youngsters. It's an incredible story. How could anyone be opposed to that? I just look at it and go, that's New Zealand's future. That's incredible. - So, we've spoken to a couple of people in the infrastructure industry who say there's a timeline issue. Are you concerned that it's gonna take too much time to be able to get the sod turned so a lot of these infrastructure industry companies can actually start working and survive in the meantime? Because there aren't a lot of projects going now. - Yeah... Yeah, I sometimes get told that. There's quite a bit happening right now. So there's, from memory, $206 billion in the national infrastructure pipeline. There's hundreds of billions of dollars, you know, that has a funding source confirmed that is likely to be built in the next five to 10 years. There's billions in delivery right now. The budget just allocated an extra $4 billion through the capital pipeline for a range of projects from hospitals, schools. I think about my own electorate ` Melling's getting underway later in the year. We've got Brougham Street down in Christchurch. We've got the Northland Expressway. That will start construction next year. The previous government wasn't interested in doing a lot of projects, or if they were, they were gonna start in kinda 2030. They put all their eggs in the light rail basket. That wasn't gonna start till 2030. A lot of the pre-work that normally gets done around consenting and business cases and all that sorta stuff just wasn't done. So we turned up in late 2023, there's only one major road that's actually consented and ready to go ` that's Warkworth to Wellsford, which is part of the Northland Expressway, which we're gonna get on with. - I just want to go to an interesting line I heard from David Seymour. His view on funding directly into Maori initiatives is, essentially, he called them racist. Do you support that view? - Well, no, I mean, I don't. I mean, I think you've got to unpick that a little bit. I mean, the reality is, Maori providers ` whether it's housing or social services or health, for example, or Whanau Ora providers, for example ` do an enormous amount of work on the ground. And it's in everyone's interests that Maori do better, both in education ` I mean, kura kaupapa is essentially a Maori... it was by-Maori-for-Maori. The government funds that, because we recognise that school choice is important. We have a range of health providers who are able to go to areas and reach people that traditional mainstream providers simply can't reach. So it's in everyone's interest to find providers that reach the most number of people in the most effective way. - Exactly. And so if we're talking about inequity and we're trying to address that in health, housing and education, and the way to deal with that is to directly fund, so that we start to see equitable outcomes, isn't what a minister in the coalition government is saying is just completely off base, isn't it, Minister? - It's not how I'd put it. It's not how I'd put it. And it's not the government's approach. We do what works, and we find the best provider for the groups we're trying to reach. - Minister, really appreciate your time. Thank you for joining us. - No worries. Thank you. - Kia ahatia e te iwi. He korero ano te whitawhita ake. A haere ake nei ` celebrating the work of the Morehu, out of the trauma of abuse in state care, next. - Hoki mai ano e hoa ma. He morehu, he toa. Eugene Ryder and Gary Williams have been key voices for Nga Morehu, survivors of abuse in state care. For six years, they were a part of the Royal Commission of Inquiry into Abuse in State Care. But last month it was their time to be celebrated, at the King's Honour investitures. Reporter John Boynton was there with them both. (THOUGHTFUL MUSIC) - At Government House in Wellington, a special occasion is underway. - It's my privilege today to present insignia for the Royal New Zealand Honours to 12 extraordinary New Zealanders in acknowledgment of their tireless efforts on behalf of people who have suffered abuse in care. - In 2024 the Royal Commission of Inquiry into Abuse in State Care was completed. The inquiry spanned almost six years, investigating the horrific abuse suffered by an estimated 200,000 children in the care of the state. - I am sorry that many bystanders, staff, volunteers and carers turned a blind eye and failed to stop or report abuse. - Gary Williams is a survivor and advocate. He was a key voice for tangata whaikaha and the inquiry. - Gary is in Wellington to receive the Companion of the King's Service Medal for his services to survivors of abuse in care. Was it hard for you to accept, knowing that so many survivors suffered horrific abuse while in the care of the state? (POIGNANT MUSIC) - Mr Gareth Williams of Christchurch for services to survivors of abuse in care. (APPLAUSE) - E te rangatira e aroha nui ki a koe mo to mahi taimaha, mo to mahi whakahirahira, to mahi aroha ki nga tangata katoa. - Mr Hans Freller, please come forward. (APPLAUSE) - For some, it's an overwhelming moment. Eugene Ryder is the last survivor to receive his honour. - Mr Eugene Ryder, please come forward. (APPLAUSE) - Ryder first appeared on The Hui in 2018, revealing the abuse he endured in state care. He was a vital part of the Royal Commission of Inquiry. Why was it important for you to come here today and to accept this honour? - I think it's important for those survivors that feel they don't have a voice, that feel they can't be represented at the highest level. So that helped me decide to come and accept this award. It wasn't an easy thing, but, yeah, thinking about all the others. - Why was it so hard? - Because I don't do what I do for me. (APPLAUSE) (RANGATAHI PERFORM HAKA) I feel blessed to be in this space as I am, to represent those that feel they don't have a voice. That's what made it difficult, because everyone deserves this award, not just me. - What was it like to receive that from your whanau? - That was, um, tear-jerking. I was prepared, and yet I wasn't prepared. My moko who started the haka tautoko is the first of my family to speak te reo. And so she's our kaitiaki reo, and so it's really important that she was here today with me ` and my mother, my wife, my two other children and my wife's mum. - What was it like for you to see all the survivors here today? - Mm. Yeah, it's... It was heartening. It was heartening to know that they're champions across the country for our morehu survivors. There's a lot of people that aren't here, that can't be here. Some weren't invited. - There were more than 138 recommendations in the Royal Commission of Inquiry. But there's no sign of full redress yet. - Apologies are words. We need to concentrate on maintaining the safety just for children in care ` for all children across Aotearoa, that the recommendations are honoured, that people are aware of what happened and with that awareness, stop that from happening with our tamariki, our mokopuna and our rangatahi. - Ka nui te mihi ki nga toa morehu nei. Hei te wiki e tu mai nei e hoa ma, coming up next week on The Hui ` - Today our mission is to execute a search warrant under the Gangs Act 2024. - Cracking down on gangs. - Purpose of this warrant is to locate the clothing worn by (BLEEP) at the time of his offending. - Six months after Gang Disruption Units were rolled out across the country... - The target of this warrant wore an article of clothing into a store here in Hawke's Bay. - ...what, if anything, has changed? - Clearly the gang members are not overly enthusiastic about giving us their patches. - Nothing's changed, really. I think gangs are here to stay. - We don't want anyone getting arrested. We don't want them in our police cells. And we don't want them going through the courts, either. - That's next week. Our thanks to all our pukorero for today's Hui. Join us next week for another. Kia mau ki te turanga o Taputapuatea. Haumi e, hui e, taiki e! Captions by James Brown. Captions were made with the support of NZ On Air. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2025 - Ko te reo te take. - Na Te Puna Whakatongarewa Te Hui i tautoko.