1 EERIE MUSIC It feels like suicide is a really difficult issue to talk about. But most of the people who take their lives in NZ aren't seeing professionals in the health system, which means husbands, wives, daughters, sons, friends and co-workers need to know when someone's in trouble and what to do about it. We all have to help. How can you tell if someone's at risk, and how do you help people who are? I'm gonna answer those questions and, most importantly, I'm going to show you how we can talk about suicide in a way that's safe. But if you're currently experiencing thoughts of suicide or you're worried about someone who might be, I'd like you to do something. It's a small thing ` just reach out, pick up the phone and call one of these numbers. There are people sitting there right now. They're not there to make a big fuss; they're just there to listen. Captions were made possible with funding from NZ On Air. Copyright Able 2016. INTENSE MUSIC When we were looking for families to talk to, I put a post on Facebook asking for people's experiences. We were inundated with hundreds of stories, many of them tragic, but also lots of examples where people asked for help and it made a difference. We selected families who had strong supports around them, and all of the families who took part in this project said that the experience was helpful to them, which was really important to us. I wanna find a way to stop the heartbreaking outcomes by showing you simple things any of us can do that can make a difference. CONTEMPLATIVE PIANO MUSIC Every year in NZ, more than 500 people take their own life, and three-quarters of them are men. The police are often the first people on the scene when someone has taken their life. Detective Sergeant Mark Moorhouse is a police negotiator who's been in the force for 30 years. You've probably talked to more people at risk of hurting themselves than most. How do you go about talking to someone who's in that really dark place? Quite often, uh, people don't understand that they get to a point where they're so low that... that a lot of them actually think that their families are gonna be` and friends are gonna be better off without them. It's hard for a normal-thinking person to understand how that can be the case, but that's the place they get to. And` And to try and bring them back into that area of normal thinking and` and some reason, and try to point out to them the things that aren't gonna be there, you know, that death's really final, and if they make that decision, um, you know, this is what you stand to lose. If you're worried about someone, when should you ring the police? There are lots of agencies out there you can ring if it's not an immediate, urgent thing, but if you're in a situation where you think that someone in your family has got suicidal ideation and they're gone somewhere where you don't know where they are and you think they're at risk, then I'd be ringing the police on the 111 line and saying, 'Look, I've got` I've got an urgent situation here, um, and I need` need help.' And the aftermath of one suicide still haunts Mark. I can remember one particular difficult occasion where a colleague, uh, of mine, uh, lost her husband to suicide, and, um, they came to` to see him and brought his little son ` so, it's like, he was` 6-year-old son ` um, and... that child was just absolutely beside himself. I've never heard anything like it. And I can remember standing there with, um, one of my detectives, and` and we were standing there with our heads down and` and listening to this child, and the effect that it had had on him, um, just the immediate effect on him, was just something I'll never forget. Yeah, it was just horrible, absolutely horrible. His colleague was Detective Stacey Bailey. In September of 2014, her fiance, David, attempted suicide. The police became involved, and they spent a good couple of hours looking for him. Um, they found him in the nick of time. Uh, from there he went into the Emergency Department at the hospital. We went to the hospital. A few friends from work also went to the hospital to` to be there. I` I couldn't go in. I couldn't see him. I was so angry with him. He'd just lost his father five months ago, and so I was like, 'Well, you know` you know how hard it is to lose a father, 'and then you go and do this to your own children?' So I was angry. David and Stacey had recently separated, and his mother and sister came to care for him. Um, 10 o'clock that night, there was a soft knock at the door, and I knew it would be David ` and it was. Um, he came in, and he still looked` He didn't look himself. He said to me, 'Do you mind if I go into the` the room and give the kids a kiss?' And he went in and he spent a few minutes in each of their rooms,... VOICE BREAKING: and said goodbye` well, obviously said goodbye to them. They never woke up. (INHALES SHAKILY) But, in hindsight, that was his goodbye. (INHALES SHAKILY) At about 7 o'clock that morning,... you... like you see in the movies, the police car arrives outside your door, and two police officers come to your door and ring the doorbell. They didn't need to say anything to me; I knew that he'd gone. It` It wasn't real for a while. It wasn't real, I guess, until I was out at the clothes line and Jack came up to me and he goes, 'Mum, why's...' TEARFULLY: 'why's everyone upset?' (SNIFFLES) And I just` I` I just had to say, 'Sorry, Jack.' (SNIFFLES) 'Dad's in heaven. 'He` He died, and he's in heaven.' (SNIFFLES) I shouldn't have to tell a 6-year-old boy that about his dad. (SNIFFLES) CAR DOOR OPENS TRACTOR HUMS, CICADAS CHIRP It's always a real kick in the guts coming here. It's hard. I guess, being a detective, you ask questions to get the answers, and in this case` but I can't have those answered, and it's just` it's really frustrating. If there was someone who's sitting at home now and they're in that space that David was in, and they're thinking, 'I'm a burden to my family and they'll be better off without me, and, you know, 'it'll be terrible, but they'll get over it, 'and everyone will be happier cos they're not burdened with me,' what would you say to that person? Just reach out to the one person who you know and trust, uh, that can help see you through this. And (SIGHS) that's what it's about. It's just sharing ` sharing your` your darkness, getting through those dark stages, and` because at the end of the day, the sun will rise. There will be better days. But it's just keeping that good company in the meantime. Professor Annette Beautrais is one of NZ's leading suicide researchers. She'd like to dispel dangerous myths around suicide so our response can be informed by the scientific evidence. Is it possible to talk safely about suicide? Yes, and one of the most helpful things that you can do if you're concerned about someone is to ask them directly if they're thinking about suicide. And very often people will be relieved that you've recognised their distress, And they will be very grateful that you've asked them if they're thinking about suicide. I think a lot of people worry that if I worried about you and I said, 'Are you feeling suicidal,' that might somehow plant the idea in your mind or push you towards suicide. But you're saying it's not the case. No. there's no evidence that you can plant the idea of suicide in someone's head, or someone's mind, if they haven't already been thinking about it. So that's a myth that we really need to destroy if we're going to help people in the community. Another myth is that there are no signs. But in the vast majority of suicides, there are. So what are they? 2 18 months ago, Stacey's fiance took his life. How much did you know about what his inside life was like? I knew he suffered from depression; I just didn't know the extent of it. I was of that opinion, you know, 'Pick yourself up, get yourself back out there and get on with it. 'Life's not that bad.' Um, but that's the last thing they wanna hear. And for him, he saw it as he's a failure. 'They're better off without me.' And eventually we'd be OK. And that` that's the way he saw it. POIGNANT MUSIC PLAYS ON LAPTOP Why did you make it? My life's been made public as it is. We were private before this happened ` we were so private ` and I have this story, and I'm not helping anybody by keeping it to myself. But yet, telling people my story or David's story ` surely that's gonna help at least one person. POIGNANT MUSIC CONTINUES PLAYING Life will never be the same... for those kids ` for any of us. And it shouldn't have ended there. POIGNANT MUSIC FADES Now, I guess y` on days like today ` so there's this lovely sunny day, and, you know, the kids are playing, and they're having fun, and you kinda think, 'Man, if you'd just held on through that stuff, this... 'this is awesome.' Yeah. 'You would like this.' And I think that every day. It's... He should be here. It's unfair. He's missing out on so much. And everything, every day, it's bittersweet. You look at the kids playing in the` the pool, or... But then you just get this wave of grief come over you, like, 'Why isn't he here? 'Why can't he appreciate this with me?' UNSETTLING MUSIC David had a tight-knit group of friends from high school, and his suicide has changed them all. In the time leading up to David's suicide, is that something you'd even thought was a possibility? No. I` I mean, you know, the thing about Dave, you know, he was the guy that, you know, was at the airport to say goodbye or say gidday. You know, for him to come unstuck was, for me, probably the most profound thing, um, cos he was actually, in daily life, the guy that kinda held everything together. So, men are one of the, kind of, highest-risk groups for suicide. Given everything that you guys have been through, what would you say to other guys about talking to guys? You know, that's one of the questions I've asked myself quite frequently, is whether I listened enough. You know, and having` starting the conversation is the first part to that, I think, and` and I'd just encourage, you know` and I know` I know my friends now, you know, it's taken a big event in life to... to land at that spot and realise that, you know, you can have the conversation. Um, it` sometimes it is a difficult one to have, but, you know, that's... you know, that's what you're there for, you know, as good friends. So you couldn't have conceived of saying to him, 'Are you suicidal?' Oh, no. You know, that word 'suicide' alone is really not in my vocabulary, and, you know, maybe I wouldn't have been 100% comfortable asking him that question, cos, you know, it's kind of implying to him that I've made some judgements, and` and, you know, you never really know how that's gonna... what their reaction is gonna be to that. Um, I wish I had've, though. How important is it, do you think, that people need to get their heads around this idea that it actually is OK to ask someone if they're feeling suicidal? Oh, look, it's` Nothing's gonna change unless we get more comfortable at asking that question and questions like it. When you look at campaigns like the... you know, the John Kirwan campaign talking about depression and his own depression, what sort of impact are campaigns like that having, and John Kirwan's campaign in particular? I think that it is, uh, slowly and gradually changing the culture for men. And, um, I've been in positions where I've heard men talking about 'having a touch of the JKs', and I think that that has had a huge impact on the way that men are willing to acknowledge emotional problems and stress and depression, and to go and ask for help and to talk about it. But we've got a long, long way to go. And given that men account for 75% of all suicides in NZ ` the clear majority ` we need to... be more focused on providing help to men. Geoff was in the air force, and he suffered from depression. As a civilian, you would think the air force would be really blokey and the last thing you could do would be talk about your feelings of being depressed and stuff. You'd just have to say, 'Nah, nah, it's all good.' Is it like that, or is it different to that? I underestimated my friends. If I had put my hand up to any number of people, they would've said, 'Yeah, what do you need?' Do you think that's, like, a guy thing? 'But oh, yeah, don't talk about your feelings,' stuff. But actually, when you do ` when you say to your mates, 'Actually, I'm having a bit of a shit time right now,' if they're friends, they actually do respond, and they do talk to you` Yeah, they do. Yeah. Yeah. And this is why I think Facebook is a lifesaver for male communication. It gives you a facility to be able to say to your mates, to your close circle, 'Fellas, I need a hand. 'It's not going so well.' Even the most unastute man that doesn't communicate very well can pick up on, 'Fellas, someone wanna come out for a beer? I need to chat,' or something as simple as that. But for Geoff's dad 30 years ago, talking about that stuff was something men simply didn't do. There's still a few bits that are a little bit grey, but, um, I think I had that petulant 14-year-old attitude about being woken up in the morning. He knocked on the door, said 'get up'. I think I growled at him and said 'bugger off', or something to that degree, and then I, um, went about my morning business. I heard him in the shower. Um, got my, uh, breakfast done,... and went in to say goodbye, and, um, I couldn't get the` his bedroom door open, um, and then found him after that. I remember a number of occasions where he'd cry in my arms. And when you're 14 you don't really, um, understand the ramifications of, you know, a grown man, who's your idol, leaning on you, crying. The upset, obviously, is that he couldn't talk to someone. There wasn't that someone there when he needed that person. If there was someone watching this now ` kind of, a middle-aged guy about your dad's age ` in that same space, what would you say to that guy? I'd say to that guy, 'Your mind is telling you a lie.' And, uh... And, 'The real you is probably just sitting underneath that.' And, 'Don't be busy. 'It's a` It's a warning sign that you need to take the time to take the time for yourself. 'And if that means ringing a mate, ringing a helpline, ringing someone, bloody hell, do it, 'because everything else ` it's a waste. You know? There's` There's systems in place. 'There's people out there. Even if you can't talk closely to family or friends, 'there's people you can talk to. Just do it.' Geoff talked to his friends when he felt depressed, and he's just celebrated a milestone ` moving past the age his father was when he died. UPLIFTING MUSIC What are the signs that someone might be at risk of suicide? A person may talk about suicide. They may ask about methods of suicide. They may appear sad, depressed, anxious. They may be agitated. They may be sleeping poorly or they may be oversleeping. They may be losing weight. They may be using more alcohol or drugs, or smoking more. Very often it's a change from previous behaviours. They may appear withdrawn, um, isolate themselves socially, uh, be not interested in participating in social activities the way that they had done previously. If I see some of those indicators in someone and I'm concerned, and I'm thinking, 'I'm` I'm worried this person may be having suicidal thoughts,' what should I do? One of the most simple and effective ways is to say to the person, 'I've noticed this, this and this about you, 'and lots of people in this situation might be thinking about suicide. 'Are you thinking about suicide?' By approaching it in that way, you make it very understandable to them because it provides a rationale. You say, 'This is what I've noticed in you; these are the changes,' and you normalise it. So you say, 'Lots of people in this situation might be thinking about suicide. 'It would be common for people to be thinking about suicide. Are you thinking about suicide?' So it makes it acceptable and easy for people to respond and say yes. If the person does say yes, what do I do then? What's useful to say is, 'This sounds very serious. This sounds important. I'm worried about you. 'Let's get you some help,' and refer them to an appropriate resource. Now, that resource can be a crisis team, a mental health team, budgetary advice, the local general practitioner. In an emergency, if you're really worried about the person's safety, you can take them to the psychiatric emergency service, the local mental health services, or dial 111. Which is very reassuring, because I think a lot of people would have the idea this is enormously complex, and it is, but the stuff that you have to do is really simple. It's just ask, and if they say there's a problem, you then become this bridge ` you then become the person that says, 'Let's go and find someone. 'Let's go and sort something out now so that I can link you in with help,' and that's really simple. If we know what the signs are and we feel empowered to ask these simple questions, then we can get rid of the myth that suicide isn't preventable. 3 Harry, a Christchurch barber, found a man who was trying to take his own life. I was arriving to work one early July morning, and I was... come out to where my father was buried at Waimairi Cemetery, and I thought, 'I'll just pop in and` and say a couple of words to Dad.' And I drove in there, and I noticed this car. And I remember thinking, 'Don't think; act.' I remember that. Jumped out the truck, just rushed over. And I remember laying him on the wet grass, thinking, you know, 'That won't be too good for you, but never mind.' And I hit him across the face. I managed to get the services. There was a wee wait ` that was probably only five minutes, but it seemed like an eternity. Have you had any contact with him since that morning? Yes, I have. Yes, he brought his daughter in, uh, one time and introduced me to her, and, uh, then went on to tell the` the` the little lass that, uh, if it wasn't for this man, you` you wouldn't be here. Well, I asked him if he remembered who I was, and he said, 'Yeah, I do.' And, um, I just said thank you. (CHUCKLES) You know, 'Thank you for giving me a second chance.' After the suicide attempt, what's the first thing that you remember? (CHUCKLES) Waking up in hospital and thinking, 'How useless am I? I can't even fucking kill myself.' That was my first thought. The ultimate thing I had control over, was my own life, I'd failed at. It was just another failure ` absolutely. MELANCHOLY MUSIC After my attempt, I didn't leave my house for two years. My partner that I had at the time spent years looking after me. From my understanding, you know, everyone in my family told her to leave me ` I was a fuck-up, I was a lost cause ` um, and she stayed. You know, for me, um, if it wasn't for her, things would have been a lot harder. We've got a beautiful daughter. She's 15 now. She gives me joy every day. There will be people watching this who have a sense of hopelessness. How do you go from hopelessness to hope? (INHALES DEEPLY) When someone's in that place, I think, for me, if I had someone that I could have told... how I was feeling to, that I trusted, would have made the world of difference. Someone saying, 'She'll be right.' They're not saying, 'You know, all you gotta do is get a job or mow the lawns or get active,' or anything like that, because all of that stuff's too hard. When blinking is hard to do, doing the right shit's hard to do. Why does someone take their life? There is no single reason for suicide and no single causal pathway. Uh, suicide is a very complex issue. There are a wide range of factors which place people at risk at... some time in their life. What`? What role doe` does depression play in suicide? Depression plays a large role in suicide, and the research studies suggest that about 60% of people who make medically serious suicide attempts or who die by suicide are depressed at the time. It's often not recognised, and even if it is recognised, it is undertreated or untreated. If people with depression are well treated, then it does have an impact in terms of reducing suicidal behaviour. When I feel really down ` mildly, or when I struggle ` I have a choice about what I do with that thought, whereas previously I didn't. When you say you feel like you've got a choice now, what do you mean? Sometimes I don't wanna get outta bed. Sometimes I don't wanna eat. And I know those things are really important for my wellness, so when those things, all those thoughts pop into my head, I see them for what they are. And then I have a choice about just moving my feet, just going to have a shower, having something small to eat. Um, and that's my choice. One of the things that I've been trying to wrestle with my own head in` when we're making this, is depressive thoughts are pretty common, and even in the general population, like, suicidal thoughts and thoughts of hurting myself ` those are also common, but acting on it isn't. How do you normalise the thoughts? But you don't wanna be saying to people, 'Actually, it's normal to kill yourself,' cos it's not. No. I` It's totally abnormal. I think it's normal to think about it. You know, for me` And I` I` I have to be really careful with saying it's normal to think about it. When I'm unwell and when things are really difficult for me, it is normal for me to think about it. Thinking about it is different than actioning. Thinking about it is different than, 'I have no future.' There's a` There's a viewpoint out there which you hear a lot, which is that suicide isn't preventable ` that if somebody wants to kill themself they're going to do it, and there's really nothing we can do. That's a myth, and we need to destroy that myth absolutely. We need to change the culture around suicide prevention so that people clearly understand that in many, many cases, suicide is preventable. The World Health Organization produced its first-ever world suicide report on suicide prevention in 2014, and the message 'suicide is preventable' was the major theme of their report. Because if you look at the s` the numbers ` like, if one in 20 people are having thoughts of suicide, if that's the thing that` and that` which is a fairly large percentage of the population ` then clearly it's preventable. Thoughts don't lead to the act, and making that distinction between, actually, lots of people have the thoughts ` that's kind of normal, in a sense ` but the... the act isn't, and the act is preventable. Yes. And that's why early intervention, recognising who in your community or your workplace is at risk, and linking them to help before people proceed down the path of not getting help and believing that their problems can't be resolved or that they can't be helped, is` is critically important. While thinking about suicide is relatively common, um, suicide attempts are much less common, and su` completed suicide is, in` in reality, a relatively rare event. But the fact that thinking about suicide is common provides us with the opportunity to intervene early, and that's critically important. Bryon's job now is to support others talking about their own depression. Can I ask a question? Who here doesn't complain about anything? OTHERS MURMUR INDISTINCTLY It's really normal. It's hard to actually complain, especially when stuff's being done to us. For me, I think, just with who's here, is the joy I get around people who wanna feel better. I can use everything that I've experienced and who I am to be alongside those people to allow them to think that they have hope within themselves. For me, I'm grateful to be alive. UPLIFTING MUSIC INTRIGUING MUSIC The NZ suicide prevention strategy sets out how the media should report on suicide ` they can't call it a suicide until the coroner says that it is, they shouldn't report on it unless it's actually newsworthy, and they shouldn't talk about method ` and there are very good reasons for that. Those of us who work in the field have seen numerous cases where someone has died by suicide with a newspaper open beside them detailing a particular case, including the method, and the person who's died has used the same method. So we've got experience about this; the research evidence also suggests exactly the same results. What does responsible media reporting look like? First of all, you need to ask yourself if the qu` if the issue in the story about suicide is really newsworthy and run it only if it is. You need to ensure that there's no gratuitous reporting. Uh, don't put the story on the front page. Don't put suicide in the headlines. Don't talk about the method of suicide. Don't include a photograph. So as a journalist, you need to understand that these are guidelines which come from a huge body of research, and when you break the guidelines, you are risking people's lives. Absolutely. We need journalists to understand that the reason ` the sole reason for the guidelines ` is to protect vulnerable people in the community and to save lives. CICADAS CHIRP SOLEMN MUSIC Our boy was a chapel boy. He used to get the church all decorated just before Christmas, so it was quite a awesome place to be, cos we used to live on-property. At the time, he was the youngest chalice bearer in NZ. He was only 13. Yeah, just looking after the chapel ` he loved it. It all brings back all the memories when I come back here, just to... I remember my brother. I often, uh, sorta, try and stay away from it, cos I always usually get emotional,... Mm. ...uh, you know, just to remember him. The last time I saw him before he passed away, um, we were having a good old laugh, and... So yeah, it's still pretty raw for me. If it was me, I'd be kinda angry at him. It's like, 'Dude, what did you do this for?' You know? Like, there's all this stuff he's missed in the life of your family. Yep, I definitely get angry at him. Um, cos I seem to think, oh, you know, he's missing out on seeing his nephews and nieces ` my children. That's the sad part for us ` we won't see the potential that he had. > And I guess a lot of families that go through that pain, you know, they think about the question why ` why it happened. Mm-hm. For us it's not so much about the 'why' any more, but about how we can do things to help others... get through the grief, the pain, and what, maybe, they can do to help people that are struggling. ENGINE HUMS After Kelly's suicide, the family set up the Te Taitimu Trust. At its core is a simple idea ` you create resilience and safety by building supportive communities around people, and that needs to start when they're young. We primarily try to work with, uh, those single-parent families, the gang families, families that are having issues with raising their children, and, you know, just trying to initiate change in their lives. We call it turning of the tide. So taitimu represents the turning of the tide. When you look at the kind of families and the young people that are coming along on your camps, like, those are all young people who would be in the groups that are high-risk for things like suicide. How do you target stuff like suicide over the course of that camp? We do it like, you know, telling stories... and, you know being real with the kids, cos you``when you start talking from the heart, um, it makes a huge impact. You know, when we start pumping out numbers and stuff, that doesn't really make much difference to many people. But when you start talking from inside yourself, it makes more of an impact. They wanna know that you are making a difference. I mean, there are lots of people who are doing good things, but you have to be able to show that it's actually having an impact. Yeah. So I'm not the ac` that person. I'm not that academic person. So we` we` we try to get other people involved to do that stuff for us. And that's important, because there are lots of people doing things with good intentions, but you have to be able to demonstrate you're having an impact. We have to talk about suicide safely. People involved in supporting suicide survivors and families of the bereaved need to be trained, and they need to be able to show that what they do works, just like what happens at the Te Taitimu Trust. Because there's strong evidence that people running support groups with no expertise or experience ` even though their hearts are obviously in the right place ` can actually end up harming people they're trying to help. The trust is doing amazing things, but for Zack and Georgina, it will never make up for the loss of their son. The message I'd have to our young people is that it does hurt. You know, if you take your life,... the` the misery, the` the hurt for the families that are left behind ` it's devastating. In our trust, all we're trying to do is turn the tide on the numbers of young people that are taking their lives. We miss our boy terribly, you know. I often wonder what he would've looked like. Would he have been married? What kind of work would have he been` would he have been doing now? Cos he had so much talent. And when we all get together, you still know that there's one missing. When our whanau come to the beach and that, you know, we` and I know the other kids, we all feel it. We know that there's one missing. WAVES SLOSH And that gets really, um,... you know, difficult at times, when we have whanau get-togethers, and the kids are happy and laughing, and... (SNIFFLES) you know, and he's not here. POIGNANT PIANO MUSIC If we can help people not to go down that path, then our cause will be on a winning path. CHICKEN SQUAWKS And for those that have tried to take their life, there can be an alternative way. A happy ending is possible. 5 In 1996, Jayne was 12 years old when she tried to take her life. We just ha` did normal things, had a meal. She'd gone to her room to what she normally does ` homework or whatever ` and... there was a phone call, actually, for her, and I went up to give her the phone, and that's when I found her. So it was just a matter of not very long at all, and it was a total change in our lives. By all accounts, it d` wouldn't have been much longer and it would have been all over. It was only... very` Very close. Yeah, very close to being a totally different... (INHALES) outcome. From what I remember, I had a argument with my mother and just went to my bedroom. How do you make sense of that? I don't know if I can. Yeah. It was just a rash decision. Just spur of the moment ` just did it. Didn't think of the consequences. Didn't think of... that's it. What was the immediate, kinda, impact on the family at that point? Total shock, really. Mm. Just` Yeah, just unexpected. Took us a while to` Just for` Yeah. ...come to terms with it, sort of thing; to, sort of, understand that it actually happened, you know? When you think back on just that moment when you were 12, what's that like? It's pretty emotional. I think if it had gone a different way,... I wouldn't have my husband and my kids. And I think, yeah, I can't imagine what my parents would have gone through with what I did, um... TEARFULLY: and I don't know why I would have did it, if it had gone through. And that's pretty horrible to think about, because now that I do have my own kids, like, I'd be devastated. GENTLE MUSIC Have you guys talked much, as a family, about what happened? Well, not really, no. No. Cos we didn't wanna push her, cos we... well, I felt that she was quite delicate at that stage, and, sorta, dredging that stuff up would, uh, yeah, maybe tip her the wrong way. We sorta left it for her to come to us if she wanted to talk about it, and then it, sort of` as the time's gone by, it's just part of what's happened now, and, yeah, it's not talked about. We didn't talk; we bottled it. So if something went wrong, you just blew out. For me, that was more self-harm. Right. Did that become a part of your life for a while after that? Yep. I probably did it for... the next 10 years, on and off. Your decision to talk now ` that's a pretty brave decision, right, because people get weird about this stuff. People judge. People need to know that other people go through what they're feeling ` maybe not exactly the same, but there is other people out there. It's hard, cos people react differently to things, so you've gotta find the person that reacts the way that helps you through it, whether that's going to a doctor or family member or a friend; uh, talk to your animal. Maybe that's a way to admitting to yourself how you're feeling, as well, cos I think that you can mask that you've got those feelings, but if you admit to yourself that you're not feeling very well and you say, 'Oh, maybe I need to talk to somebody.' And it took me a long time to get control of those feelings and learn the best way to deal with them. I struggled a lot talking to my parents about it cos, I think, I'd hurt them so much already that it was really hard to talk to them how I was feeling afterwards. So, have you got to that point where you've forgiven yourself for the stupid, ill-considered thing you did when you were 12? Probably not. Cos you're a parent now, if your kids did something that hurt you, would it take much for you to forgive them? Nah. I'd always forgive my kids. That's a good point. I mean, that's how the game works, right? You know? Yeah. Your kids do shitty stuff, and they... they do things that hurt you and upset you and make you worried, but you forgive 'em, cos that's just part of the game, man. Yes. Yeah. That's the ticket. That's what you do. Yep. Good lesson. Again, with my parents, it's how do you approach it, though? In saying that, I did write them a letter apologising for what I did. (SNIFFLES) And because we don't know how to talk about it, we... it got swept under the carpet. I felt like getting them together to finally talk about it would be a healthy thing to do. When you guys read the letter, was it difficult to talk to Jayne about your feelings about the stuff that that brought up for you when you read the letter? Yes. Yeah. Let's have that talk now. > (CHUCKLES) What did it bring up? Cos I think you guy` I think that's the last bit that needs to happen for you guys, is there's some stuff around that. Yes. It's just very emotional. It's still very hard to talk about. Cos, Jayne, like, when you wrote the letter and your Mum and Dad didn't say anything back, that's when you guys got caught in a bit of that trap thing, right? > You were worried about saying the wrong thing. > You were thinking, 'I just wrote this big letter; I got nothing back. What's going on with that?' Yeah. I just, sort of, maybe thought, you know, they might... might have said, 'Oh,' you know, 'we read it. We're glad you gave it to us. 'Doesn't chan... change what you did, but, you know, we feel we know how you feel, and... 'and we're OK with it.' We've supported you, and we'll always support you. Yeah, I'm not good at putting it into words. It's more what you show, rather than how y... what you say. You know, we've been there to support her, you know. Just to know that they read it and that they understood it, yeah. And that they don't hate me for what I did, I guess, or... < Oh, we'd never hate you, Jayne. ...hold anything against me. (SNIFFLES) I think she worries about that. (SNIFFLES) I was pleased she wrote it. I sorta could understand a little bit about the situation. It was a tragic thing... at the time, but we love you, Jayne. We accept you for who you are, for the good mother you are,... < the beautiful daughter that you are, and Linda and I love you. (SNIFFLES) OK. So, how we help is by doing simple things. If you're concerned about someone, ask them how they're going and listen to them. It's safe to ask them if they're having thoughts of suicide ` in fact, it's really important. Remember, it's often very difficult for someone who's in a dark space to reach out, so you can help them by supporting them to call any of these people or by doing it for them. Taking them to a doctor is also a really good first step. If it's urgent, call the police ` they're also there to help. And if you're having thoughts of suicide, it's OK. You're not the only person who's ever had those thoughts. But just having them doesn't mean that you have to act on them; the vast majority of people who have those thoughts never act on them. So talk to someone ` call the numbers on the screen, a friend, your GP. Reaching out will make things better. You don't need to know how; you just need to talk to someone.