(INTRIGUING MUSIC) Every nation and every region... now has a decision to make. Either you're with us... or you are with the terrorists. (INTRIGUING MUSIC CONTINUES) (MUSIC INTENSIFIES) (MUSIC CONTINUES) Captions by Shrutika Gunanayagam and Chelsea Thoresen. www.able.co.nz Captions were made with the support of NZ On Air. Copyright Able 2017 (LOW, UNSETTLED MUSIC) I wanted the truth, you know? Don't cover it up. I wanted to know how my boy got killed. I had nine people who were killed during my time as Chief of Defence Force ` killed in operations. It was the most difficult thing I ever had to deal with, and the reality of going and seeing the families, spending time with them, that was always the hardest thing, and those nine people will stay with me right throughout my life. PAULA PENFOLD: Do you feel like you know the truth of how Pralli died? I think that I know, I feel that I know the... details of how he died. I don't fully... understand why... New Zealand was in Afghanistan. I suppose when you went and saw the families,... that was right in your face... that this family... had borne a terrible cost on behalf of... all of New Zealanders, and the rest of us can be sympathetic, supportive, but they've actually suffered the loss in a way the rest of us haven't. That's a very big thing. Do you feel like you have ever discovered the truth of why your son died? No. No, not really. No. (WHOOSHING) PA: The train journey ends here. Please take all your belongings, and watch your step as you exit. (RATTLING) (LOW, UNSETTLED MUSIC CONTINUES) It's been called the 'unwinnable war', and it's proved to be just that. It's four years since New Zealand left that war behind, and still so little is known about our role in Afghanistan ` what we achieved, where we failed, what secrets we kept. We're here to find out about two of the biggest firefights for New Zealand forces, because we've been told the public has never known the truth about them. SIR ANAND SATYANAND: Corporal Apiata joins a select group of individuals to recognise distinguished and prominent personal gallantry. One is the 2004 battle for which Willie Apiata won a Victoria Cross, but only a fraction of what happened was ever released by Defence. What we want to know is what happened before and after. (MAN SPEAKS FOREIGN LANGUAGE) We also want to know what really happened at Baghak in August 2012. Soldiers who'd been sent to help reconstruct Afghanistan ended up in the biggest firefight for our regular forces since Vietnam. Two New Zealand soldiers were killed and six wounded. It was quite early in the morning, and I had a knock on the door, and I had a look out,... and I saw three men in military uniforms,... so I knew that they were there... to tell me something about Pralli. Uh, how am I doin'? I s'pose I` I dunno. It's a hard question to say, you know? I've... I've learnt to live with it. I haven't recovered from it. It doesn't get any easier. It just... becomes part of me. (BEEPING) (BEEPING CONTINUES) (LINE RINGS) PHONE: Defence Public Affairs. Hi, Tony. It's Eugene Bingham calling from Fairfax. Oh, hey. How are you going? Hey, I've just got my colleague Paula Penfold here. So I'm on speakerphone, so I do apologise if` OK. Hi, Tony. Is now OK to talk about... our request? Uh, (STAMMERS) how pressing is it? It's just that is fairly frantic here today. I wanted to know. I wanted to know the ins and outs. I wanted the truth. There should be no reason why the Defence Force does not front to explain Baghak. It owes society... details and an explanation ` an honest explanation. It owes its soldiers who were there an honest explanation. TONY: But when we talked, um, it wasn't really clear, and I think you said it was unclear from your perspective whether you'd be going to Afghanistan, who you might be talking to there. I don't wanna sort of labour the point, but` EUGENE: No. ...actually getting to Afghanistan and seeing how things are perceived, that, to me, would seem quite important. If we are sending soldiers overseas to themselves be put in harm's way or kill or injure other people or destroy property or affect civilian populations, then those are such important decisions that you would expect that, at least after these things have happened, we should be given access to information about why it was done and what happened so that we can then hold the government accountable for the decisions that were made at the time. I guess you're aware that there's a ton of shit about to fall down on you... Mm. ...for speaking out about these things. Oh, absolutely. I'm gonna be crucified, and I don't care. Anyone who sticks their head above the parapet in any way, shape or form will be crucified in some way, shape or form. They'll be attacked. I expect that. I spent 24 years in the New Zealand Army ` 15 years as an infantryman, nine years doing other stuff. I deployed five times. I'm used to being attacked. I've been shot at; I've been mortared; I've been rocketed. I had someone throw a fuckin' spear at me, for Chrissakes ` a spear! Doesn't get more personal than someone throwing a spear at you. This, though, is just as important as that. TONY: OK, now, look, that's OK, and appreciate you calling. OK. Thanks, Tony. Hey, thanks very much. Thanks, Tony. Bye-bye. Bye. Bye. Thanks for calling. Bye. OK? They're determined to find out if we're going to Afghanistan. That's all he wants to know. (TENSE MUSIC) So, it's the latest security report saying that Afghanistan is considered an extreme risk for travel, and insurgent outfits continue to stage frequent suicide operations, bombings ` including vehicle-borne explosives and improvised explosive devices ` assassinations, carjackings, rocket assaults, assaults and kidnappings. We started asking questions about the battle of Baghak three years ago, and, so far, the New Zealand Defence Force won't give us anyone at all to talk to. So, what really happened that day? And what led to it? There was a military inquiry, but there's just so much to it that actually doesn't add up, and the Afghans have never been asked, which is why we're here. And from what we're already hearing, the truth could be very different from what the New Zealand public has been told. We wanna train hard, and we wanna train for the likely situations we're gonna find ourselves in. Before CRIB 20 left for Afghanistan, they had to undergo pre-deployment training ` what's known as PDT ` just like every other deployment before them. One of the commanders whose name keeps coming up ` charismatic and revered by many ` former SAS officer Craig Wilson. He had a particular scenario he wanted to play out, and this was the 'bait and hook' scenario, as he called it. Bait and hook? Bait and hook. What did you think of that tactic? I thought it was absolutely fucking ridiculous. Why? It basically breaks every tenet of good sense when it comes to tactics and doctrine. Was that CRIB ready to go to Afghanistan? And were there any issues with individuals on it that meant they shouldn't go in their roles? In terms of the command and leadership, definitely, there were some issues. In spite of those concerns being voiced to Wellington, that CRIB went, and the officer commanding, about whom concerns had also been voiced, also went in that role. Is that OK? Well, I don't think we really expected that to happen, to be perfectly honest. We expected that action would be taken ` either that he would have his attitude sorted out through the command chain, or else he would be replaced. You know, we walked away from that final parade in Waiouru, where the Land Component Commander, Mark Wheeler, stood up and said to the PDT, 'Your leadership has been hand-picked.' And all the instructors and the observers who were standing off to one side looked at each other, and there was a few eye-rolls. And as we were dismissed and we walked away, one of my fellow staff sergeants turned to me, or turned to us, actually, and said, you know, 'We better save our emails.' And the inference there was ` 'This is gonna turn to shit.' (TENSE MUSIC) (SPEAKS FOREIGN LANGUAGE) (TENSE MUSIC CONTINUES) So, you can go in the front. MAN: Yep. Yeah. The New Zealand military investigators did not go to the battle site ` Baghak and the Shikari Valley ` and we've been advised it would be reckless to go by ourselves. So, the notoriously secretive Afghan National Directorate of Security ` the NDS ` offers to take us there. (INDISTINCT RT CHATTER) After three years of investigating the Battle of Baghak, we are now getting the opportunity to visit the battle site for ourselves. The Afghan forces have arranged an armed convoy to take us there, and the NDS commander who was in charge that day is personally escorting us. The risks are an IED explosion, which is why the military vehicle that we're in is in the middle of the convoy. The other risk is being fired upon from the mountains, and so there are armed soldiers giving us all the protection they possibly could. The battle began when our military allies in Afghanistan, the NDS, came under fire when they set out to arrest a suspected bomb maker. Four soldiers would be killed and nine more wounded. The NDS called for help from the New Zealand Provincial Reconstruction Team ` the PRT. The NDS moved their first casualty back to Do Abe, that's where the forward operating base was. When they arrived, they requested assistance from the PRT. The commanding officer in Kiwi Base, back in Bamyan town, and the officer commanding located in the outpost in Romero discussed the situation, and the CO approved in extremis support. (MEN SPEAK IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE) The battle site is only 70km from Bamyan town, but the state of the roads and the route the NDS chooses for safety reasons means it's gonna take us four hours to get there. (WHISTLING, GOATS BLEAT) (WHISTLING) MAN: 09.45 ` KT4 arrived at Baghak. KT2, the LAV patrol, arrives at 10.38. The two commanders discuss the situation with the NDS and clearance patrols are planned, including dismounting to clear the buildings in the area and the surrounding ground. The fighting seemed to have stopped, and the Kiwi soldiers evacuated the Afghans. But instead of then pulling out, the commanders decided New Zealand should stay and carry out what's known as a clearance operation. Is that going on the attack, really? You are pushing into the enemy territory. Yes, it's an offensive operation, certainly. Were the PDTs for Afghanistan being trained in clearance operations and how to conduct them? No. Why not? That wasn't their job. It was a reconstruction team after all, and the mandate from New Zealand ` publicly, at least ` was this was not a combat force; it was a hearts and minds mission. One of their commanders, though, is ex SAS. And just a month before Baghak, Major Wilson was giving a stark warning. They're just over in Tala wa Barfak, or maybe down in Parwan, fighting on behalf of some other warlord, but they are not far away. And it only takes a couple of decisions over that hill, and we're in business. We have to fight. And at the Battle of Baghak, it becomes real. The New Zealand soldiers wait on the ground for two and a half hours, in a known ambush site, for Major Wilson to arrive to lead that clearance operation. And when he does, all hell breaks loose. (JET ENGINE ROARS) We haven't edited the swearing, because it shows how things really were. (GUNFIRE) (GUNFIRE CONTINUES) Video filmed by the soldiers that day shows part of what happened when two New Zealand soldiers, lance corporals Rory Malone and Pralli Durrer are killed and six others injured, including their officer commanding, Major Wilson. MAN: MAN: (GUNFIRE) The OC, Major Craig Wilson, was seriously wounded at the very beginning of the battle, and normally command would have gone to his second in command, but he had left the battle site to get Wilson to medical assistance, leaving the New Zealand soldiers with no overall command and control. MAN: What just happened? Quickly. Say it before the battery runs out. What just happened today? We got shot at by good guys and bad guys. A jet flew overhead, gunship flew overhead, four helicopters, more helicopters here now, and apparently it was all just one guy on a hill somewhere. Boys are all in the hills here. Just been shot at. Got contacted from the rear and then contacted from the ground. We're currently in an ambush position right now, ambushing the track down there, and hopefully they're gonna fucking come through and we'll snot 'em. These soldiers filming each other are in the high ground overlooking the valley floor, where most of the battle took place. When they talk about being shot at by good guys, they're referring to when New Zealand soldiers fired up towards them, wounding two of their own in friendly fire. But, fucking, in all seriousness, man, for those of you that are gonna end up watching this video at home, and probably for me when I'm, like, 50 years old, all of the boys have done well today. Working hard, minimum water, and we've still got a long way to go. Fucking first contact, man. Bit of a buzz. But she's fucking pretty scary at the same time. (CHUCKLES) You reckon? (CHUCKLES) Four rounds either side, man. Fucking getting shot at from the rear, contact rear. Grunt life, baby. This is grunt life, man. I love this shit. Fuck, nah, if this video ever makes it out to the families of the guys that got shot and died today, I promise you we'll dominate the high ground and we'll fucking waste these dudes if we get the chance. I think they're trying to hide that they made some pretty bad decisions that day. And I think that Craig Wilson did something that created a situation that could have been avoided. (RINGING TONE) WOMAN: Defence Force, good morning. Good morning. Could I speak to Major Craig Wilson, please? AUTOMATED VOICE: Sorry, Craig Wilson is not available. I mean, if Craig Wilson knows something, why doesn't he stand up and say what it is? (GRAVEL RATTLES) (INDISTINCT RT CHATTER) There is an unmistakeable tension as we arrive at the site of the battle where two New Zealand and four Afghan soldiers were killed. (TENSE MUSIC) (BRAKE ENGAGES) So, this is it ` the Shikari Valley at Baghak. The NDS soldiers who were here with some of them have already disappeared up into the hills to check for Taliban. This is where those maps and videos that we've been studying for so long start to come to life, really, and you start to get some kind of sense of what it must've been like to be here. (GUNFIRE) Being here is helpful, because what we've seen so far comes from one limited perspective. This position here is where all of the footage that we've seen during the battle was filmed from, but what we have never seen is around the corner where the New Zealand casualties were, so we're gonna have a look there next. Remember ` the Afghan forces were here to arrest a suspected bomb maker, Haji Abdullah. And where was his hideout spot where he was shooting from? With dead and wounded soldiers, the Afghans called for assistance from the New Zealand PRT. When you are here, you can get a sense of why this is a known ambush site ` this steep valley. (GUNFIRE) WOMAN: Actual contact! Contact! And there's a rock right here where one of your soldiers was killed, is that right? Three people there, and then one later in the day here. You know, our dismounted patrol that went up into the hills, now, when you see that, I can realise what an incredible feat that was ` our soldiers getting up in there. The New Zealand soldiers were here on a hearts and minds mission, but on that day, after evacuating the injured Afghans, they instead found themselves waiting two and a half hours in this ambush site for Major Craig Wilson to arrive to command the clearance operation ` go on the attack. The officer commanding, Craig Wilson, arrived around the middle of the day. They parked back there. He walked down this road to get a briefing from New Zealand soldiers. This is the bridge? Oh. Right. In the maps we've been studying, there was a bridge here. (SPEAKS FOREIGN LANGUAGE) And some of the NDS soldiers went across the bridge and into this clearing here, but that bridge has now been destroyed. (JET ENGINE ROARS) So, when that American jet did the low flyover, the New Zealand officer commanding was standing around this position, and was, we understand, looking across that direction to where NDS soldiers had gone on their way up that cliff face, and at that point the battle began. What we officially know about what then went wrong comes almost solely from the report of a military court of inquiry, though it's full of redactions, and there's so much that doesn't make sense, including how the battle began. The report says the New Zealanders were fired at by up to 11 insurgents and that we returned fire. But Major Wilson himself told the inquiry it was he who fired first, not the insurgents ` that he fired at three insurgents in this low ground and then called ceasefire. But the Court of Inquiry doesn't accept Wilson started it, believing he was shooting back. So what then becomes crucial is who was he firing at? He says it was insurgents in the low ground across the river. In that area where the New Zealand commander said he fired, could there have been insurgents there? A Kiwi soldier up in the high ground who says he saw what happened agrees. He and the other New Zealand soldiers had already been through that area to check for insurgents. And then, from his vantage point, he says he saw a group of 10 of our Afghan allies, the NDS, cross the bridge into this low ground, and he says he saw them getting shot at from the direction of the New Zealanders. It's his recollection of events, but there were 67 people involved, and it is not the recollection of events of others. 'But that's not quite right. For a start, most of those 67 New Zealand soldiers 'couldn't see that part of the action. 'And then there's the Afghan soldiers who the military investigators didn't talk to.' One New Zealand soldier who was in the high ground says that he saw the commander arrive and walk along the road, and then he saw 10 NDS behind him cross the bridge and go into that area. Does that make sense? 'And what about the shooting? Well, another New Zealand soldier who was right there says 'he saw the NDS fire at Craig Wilson and Rory Malone from across the river. 'Just why they would do that seems strange, unless, perhaps, they were fired at first by mistake. 'So what does that mean? Was this, in military terms, a blue-on-green attack ` 'friendly forces shooting at each other with disastrous consequences? 'And if it was, is this why there might have been confusion?' When you went across that bridge with the other soldiers, were you wearing uniform or shalwar kameez? Is it possible you could be mistaken for a civilian or for an insurgent? For a New Zealand soldier, might it be hard to tell you apart? 'And here's the next major discrepancy between what the New Zealand Court of Inquiry found 'and what we're now discovering from soldiers on the ground. 'It's about where the Defence Force maps say there were insurgents.' No insurgents there? You know, we showed on the map that there were three insurgent spots that you say were never here. They must be up here, is that right? The point is, the Court of Inquiry, the official public record of what happened, says the three insurgents it places here were firing at New Zealanders and wounded them. But if the NDS soldiers are right, and there was no enemy there, that changes everything, because who was it, then, who wounded our soldiers? And from where? That information from the Afghans would obviously have been helpful for the New Zealand investigators, so why didn't they have it? The strong inference is it's because the Afghans wouldn't cooperate. REPORTER: It certainly would have provided a far richer understanding of what occurred. Again, you would need to ask them. I really don't know. The New Zealand investigation, the military investigation, says that it was unable to speak to members of the Afghan forces that day. Was he asked? So the commander on the day wasn't asked by the New Zealand investigators for his input into the inquiry. And nor, as far as he knows, was anyone above him. And here's the thing ` while the New Zealand investigators did not go to the battle site, the Afghan authorities did ` the very next day. The New Zealand Court of Inquiry concludes that Lance Corporal Pralli Durrer was killed by a single gunshot wound by insurgents. It says Lance Corporal Rory Malone was also shot and killed by insurgents. But crucial aspects of the Court of Inquiry report which could affect that scenario are wrong. Did we provoke a firefight that killed our own? What we do know is the questions that should have been asked weren't, and conclusions were reached which don't fit the evidence. So, the NDS have asked to be in and out of here as quickly as possible. They are now going to assess the safest route back to Bamyan. I just wanted to give you a call, partly out of courtesy, but one of the things that we're looking at is 2004 and what happened in Uruzgan. DISTORTED VOICE ON PHONE: Um, I` I` sorry, I cannot comment on that at all. There's another battle we're trying to find out about. What we want to ask him is not about Baghak; it's an operation eight years earlier, and it's not the Provincial Reconstruction Team; it's the SAS. (MAN SPEAKS FOREIGN LANGUAGE) So, my name is Paula Penfold, and I'm a journalist from Fairfax in New Zealand. No. I understand that you're not allowed to talk, but I wondered if we could have a conversation that... You can't do that? We can protect your identity. We don't need to say where anything that you tell us comes from. But these villagers want their side of the story told. They live in the province of Uruzgan, where the 2004 firefight we're talking about happened. Why do you want to tell your story? (SPEAKS FOREIGN LANGUAGE) SIR ANAND SATYANAND: Corporal Apiata joins a select group of individuals to recognise distinguished and prominent personal gallantry, regard... You'll know a little of the detail. Willie Apiata was awarded the Victoria Cross for carrying a seriously wounded soldier across a battlefield through enemy fire. When he was advised that he had won the Victoria Cross,... he said to his CO, 'I was only doing my job, boss.' HELEN CLARK: This is a very proud moment for the SAS,... for the New Zealand Defence Force and for New Zealand. Nobody is questioning Apiata's courage, but sources have told us while the military framing of what happened captured New Zealand hearts and minds, it leaves out important detail of what came before the firefight and what followed. Here's how the villagers say the operation started. (MAN SPEAKS FOREIGN LANGUAGE) Did the soldiers say that they would be coming back? (MAN SPEAKS FOREIGN LANGUAGE) They say after the soldiers left, the Kiwis set up a camp on the side of a hill not far away, and during the night, the villagers heard loud fighting. That was the firefight where Willie Apiata earned his VC. Then in the morning, what the villagers describe as tanks rolled back into the village bazaar. (MAN SPEAKS FOREIGN LANGUAGE) (BOTH MEN SPEAK FOREIGN LANGUAGE) Were you scared? (SPEAKS FOREIGN LANGUAGE) (SPEAKS FOREIGN LANGUAGE) Of course. (SPEAKS FOREIGN LANGUAGE) How did what happened make... the people of your village feel about those foreign soldiers? (SPEAKS FOREIGN LANGUAGE) (SPEAKS FOREIGN LANGUAGE) (CONTINUES SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE) The account of these Uruzgan villagers confirms what we've been told by sources in New Zealand, who describe what happened as 'bait and hook'. The bait ` apparently, going into the village and provoking the firefight. The hook ` knowing they had more troopers waiting to fight, which, remember, is the tactic Major Craig Wilson wanted to use eight years later in the CRIB 20 pre-deployment training, and Major Wilson was the troop commander on this Uruzgan mission, decorated for his role. (HORN BLARES) (LOW, UNEASY MUSIC) Hi, Major Wilson. I'm Paula Penfold. I'm a journalist with Fairfax. Oh, yeah. How are you? (HORN BLARES) Hi, Major Wilson. I'm Paula Penfold. I'm a journalist with Fairfax. We're been tryin' to... Yeah. ...talk to you. He tells us he's under strict instructions not to speak to journalists and is prevented from telling his story. (LOW, UNSETTLED MUSIC) Thank you, Craig. PHONE: And I actually was gonna mention Craig Wilson to you, cos he let us know he was approached by you guys, I think, yesterday... Yeah. ...just as he was leaving work. Yeah. Um, so, really, I mean, just when you` usually in` what I've asked you in the past is that, you know, you go through` you go through the media team. Um, he wasn't very comfortable about the approach yesterday, um, I have to say, and he's made that pretty plain to us. He made it very clear to us that he'd very much like to be able to speak to us and that he would like us to persist with you so that we can have an on-record conversation with him. (LINE RINGS) Hi, Craig. It's Paula Penfold calling from Fairfax. PHONE: Oh, hello. How are you. I'm good, thank you. How are you? FLATLY: Yeah, all right. Oh, what's wrong? Nothing ` end of a boring day. Oh. (CHUCKLES) Yeah. 'The commanders above Wilson have made the decision that he can't talk to us, 'but there are things we think he needs to know.' I think that there are gonna be things that we are reporting that I think, to be fair to you, we should put to you, which is why I'm calling. We're getting a real sense that we are going round and round in circles, and actually, it just feels like there's incredible resistance from NZDF to any cooperation with us on this project, or am I reading this wrong? Cos this has taken an extraordinarily long time to get nowhere, frankly. Well, actually, the reply that we were, you know, declining invitation came out some time ago. Um, we did spend some time toing and froing. So, you know, we are where we are, but the position hasn't changed,... OK. ...but I will have to` I will raise it again. While we were in Afghanistan, the US dropped the Mother Of All Bombs on an ISIS stronghold. (SIRENS WAIL) A suicide bombing in Kabul in May killed 150 people and injured hundreds more. This is the ongoing war New Zealand has left behind. Am I the only one that looks like the bad guy in the whole thing? I-I` See, you said that earlier ` something about us reporting negatively and about you looking like the bad guy. You know, that's not our intention at all. We're just trying to report accurately what might've happened that day, because we have established that the Court of Inquiry got things wrong, got really important things wrong. You're talking about whether we fired first. Yeah, that's one of the things, yeah. Yeah, let me` I'll tell you somethin' about that. OK. What I said to the Court of Inquiry and what's actually true are two different things on that particular issue. OK. How so? And I` Well, it's because I was` I was so pumped up with adrenaline, I-I didn't` I didn't acknowledge the firing, but when` but when I read that there had been other firing and other guys were aware of it, I sorta` my attitude towards it was, 'Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's right,' and that's how I knew it was time to shoot at them, but, yeah, it's hard to explain. Y-You need some context on that. Yeah, I do. I don't understand that. You need to know what` You need to know what it's like when` when it's on and someone's fighting, you're in a gunfight. It's a massive adrenaline rush, and y-your senses don't function like normal, and everything doesn't get ordered in your head as you remember it quite right. Mm. That's the sorta` That's the sorta context I so wanna give you in an interview so that you can see that no` (SIGHS) there's no` there's no conspiracy here, and I think the people who did the inquiry and things like that actually got it right. When you speak to NDS on the ground, who were there, there are a number of things that the Court of Inquiry included and concluded that they say are wrong, and they were never spoken to by our investigators. For instance, the people on the ground, the NDS soldiers who were there on the ground say that those three insurgents that the Court of Inquiry puts on the hills to the west of the New Zealand soldiers weren't there. There was no insurgents there, and that changes things; that changes a lot about direction of gunshots, about who was responsible for gunshots from a particular direction. So there's` there are, you know, many disputed facts now. Yeah, yeah, well, that, I mean... And that's just one example. Yeah, nah, that's fair, and, um` and, um, you know, I-I wished I'd had the opportunity to do what we're supposed to do... after a battle to sort all that out. Mm. How would you like Pralli to be remembered? As an ordinary... young boy who... more than likely found himself in a situation that... didn't really need to happen. I just think it's wrong. I mean, I know he's dead; I can't change the outcome. I can't change that. I know that,... but if there's been an injustice, then they should be accountable. They should be, and the government should make them, and they should apologise. They should stand up and apologise. I'll tell you something about this whole thing. You know, I-I lie straight in bed at night. I know` I know my best over there, and I know I did my best before that tour. I know I did my best during that tour, and not only by my soldiers but to do the right thing when we were there ` to be` you know, not to kill the wrong people, just to try and help the Afghans. It was` I stuck to our mission; I did what we're s'posed to do, and I know I did my best in doing that. We` Did we have the best information? Were we`? We were aligned with them? There were heaps of problems on that front ` multiple problems, but I did my best in the situation I was in. You know, what you don't understand is that I-I` every single day I have memories about all the things I could've done differently, maybe by accident. Maybe I would've stumbled on some information. Maybe I should've talked to this person, should've talked to that person, and then there would've been a chain of events, and ultimately, things would've turned out differently, and five people wouldn't be dead. I got their deaths on my conscience, and I think about them all the time, and I've tried my best to help their families since the` since the whole thing. I've tried really hard to always be available to them and to help them come to terms and make them realise that we'll never forget the sacrifice of their sons. You know my right arm doesn't work any more, eh? Mm. I've literally given my right arm to my country. Yeah. And, you know, now I'm getting the finger pointed at me. I don't forget that. I'm gettin' the bloody finger pointed at me, with no opportunity to respond. Yeah. I hope you just` you just take some care in what you say in response of that,... We do. ...because that's how I'll be feeling at the time. (THUNDER RUMBLES) I will point out that the men and women of CRIB 20, especially at the lowest levels, performed in an exemplary manner on that day in Baghak. (LOW, UNEASY MUSIC) They did,... and nobody's criticising them. No, and they shouldn't be criticised. Uh, they performed, um,... heroically, uh, and unfortunately, they were let down by their commanders at various levels ` not just within the CRIB but also higher levels through Command and Joint Forces and, uh` and, uh, Headquarters Joint Forces Command. Uh, and they're not the ones who have to pick up the pieces. They're not the ones standing there with their hands up, and they're not the ones putting any effort into` i-into supporting their fellows. That comes to people like me and my volunteers, uh, which is... It's pretty fuckin' shit. We would be really disappointed if after this goes to air, after this is published, you start to criticise what's in it when we have` we have gone to extraordinary lengths to seek your involvement. You know, we are giving you the opportunity to provide us with an accurate record of what happened, and you don't seem to be wanting to take that opportunity. TONY: Well, we` I think again we're going down in circles here. All right, we'll wait to hear back from you. OK, cool, no worries, and nice to catch up again. BOTH: Bye. Thanks. Bye. (UNSETTLED MUSIC) (MUSIC CONTINUES) Captions by Shrutika Gunanayagam and Chelsea Thoresen. Captions were made with the support of NZ On Air.