* (GRAND STRING MUSIC) - I'm Matt Chisholm. In a lot of ways, my life was looking pretty good ` a beautiful family and a dream job that was getting pretty wild. - BOTH: Celebrity Treasure Island. - Deep down, I was the unhappiest I'd ever been. I'm buggered. My head hurts. It's not working as well as it was. I promised my old workmate, Greg Boyed, before he died from depression, I'd go see the doc. I actually came away from that conversation with Greg that day thinking that he was in a better place than me. (MUSIC RESONATES) But we all know what happened. - It's with sadness and heavy hearts we mourn the sudden death of our friend and colleague, Greg Boyed. - So, I packed in the job and moved my family down south to Central Otago. It hasn't always been plain sailing, but it works for me. - Hot! Hot. - Hot. Over half of us will experience mental illness or distress in our life, but guys do it really tough. It's men who are three times more likely to end their own life. - Are you worried that this he's going to harm himself? - We lose a good Kiwi bloke everyday. - Stress and anxiety is the new norm, and we're starting to wear it like a badge, and that's bullshit. - 'I found my way back.' Oh! Yeah. 'I want to find out how we help husbands and friends and brothers who haven't yet.' Are any of you finding this slightly awkward, or...? - No. - No. - Are we talking about it enough? Is talking about enough? - I'm the new host! - (LAUGHS) We'll often say, 'Are you man enough?' Are All Blacks allowed to cry? - Oh, hell yeah. (LAUGHS) - How does that play for the rest of us? - You should be tough enough to get through it. Just harden up. (LAUGHS) - Is the pressure to be a Kiwi man killing us, and can it be stopped? www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2020 (TENSE STRING MUSIC) I remember the day Greg left us. I don't want any more days like that. We can't keep losing people. We need to do something about this. Although I'm not necessarily a leader,... I feel like I've got a job to do in this space. I feel like I can help a lot of people. I want to start the conversation. The conversations that I had with all my friends and colleagues when I put up my hand and said, 'I'm not OK'? I want to have those conversations before people start breaking in the cities, in the towns, in the country ` that you're actually more of a man when you put your hand up. - 16 to 8. Radio Central. We've got Shane and Matt ` breakfast with all the trimmings. I hope you're feeling happy now. That's what we're here to talk about. - It's a massive challenge, but we've got to start somewhere, so I've come down to the local radio station where my mate Shane has put the call out. Tim, do you know why we've got you in here today? - Yeah. Yeah, I do, and I could happily come in here and talk about the time I broke my leg playing rugby, but, you know, there was a time in my life when things weren't working too well upstairs, and I went through some dark times. And so, I guess I'm coming in here today is to say, 'Well, you've got to talk about it,' you know? And I'm not finding it easy. - How do we create that situation where everyone's on the same page, where men think it's OK to share and be vulnerable? - Slowly. (ALL LAUGH) - And through things like this. - We have a very special guest, Annie Kennedy, in the studio. Morning, Annie. - Very special. Hi, everyone. Hi, Shane. Hi, Matt. Nice to meet you. - Nice to meet you too, Annie. - My oldest son, Addison, has been struggling with mental health issues probably since about sixth form, year 12 particularly, and we wrapped as much care around him as we could. I flew to Auckland. Addison picked me up at the airport, as he usually does, and I had the most beautiful evening with my two boys, and he gave Jordan the biggest hug at the end of the night, told him he was the best brother, and he gave me the biggest squeeze ever, told me that I'm the most amazing woman in the world and he's so grateful for me, and I just thought it was the signal of a shift. But, yeah. That was the last time I saw him. - Oh, Annie. - He was 22. I remember at his funeral, someone said he's like the midwinter sun ` casts a light on so many people. He had such an impact on so many lives. But the sun can't see its own light, and, you know, that was something that really resonated with me with him. He had no idea what he brought to the world, and I think everyone just needs to believe that you are having an impact in a positive way around so many people, and you just can't see that in this moment. I don't know what the solutions are, and I'm delighted that people like you guys have got the courage to bring this to the front. - I've just come out of Shane's studio at Radio Central, and I've been hit with a barrage of text messages. 'Congratulations on a great programme this morning. 'I recognise that pain Annie was describing. It is complex.' 'Very brave show this morning. Well done for bringing it out into the open.' So, what I'm feeling is that we may have reached some people this morning. - Oh, my God, I felt it here, and I was so proud. So proud of you guys. - Why were you proud of us? - Because you shared something a lot of men won't. They won't come out and do it. They just won't! They've got something that holds them in, that says to them, 'No, I can't do this. I can't say this. It might show I'm weak.' - If I'm aiming to reach out with a different message about what being a man really means, I've got to be open to advice from people who are already doing that. I'm off to a gym to meet a guy called Richie Hardcore, which is actually intimidating on two levels. I'm not a gym guy, and I'm definitely not hardcore. (ENERGETIC ROCK MUSIC) Richie has built his public profile on men's health from his reputation as a champion fighter. You couldn't get more masculine than this, could you? - (LAUGHS) Well, no, see, this is where it's interesting. - OK. - Because you're saying that fighting is an inherently masculine thing. - I think I'm saying that. - And we can say that perhaps that's a social construction. (MUSIC CONTINUES) - Rep! - Forget about the fighting. The warm-up's stuffing me. - When we think about masculinity, we have this real stereotype of, you know, what people in this space call a man box. Don't cry, toughen up, harden up, drink heaps of piss, score heaps of birds. - I don't want to incriminate myself here. - (LAUGHS) - But you're describing the culture that I was brought up in... - It's the culture we're all brought up in. - ...in the Deep South. Yeah, but that's the problem. - It is the problem. (MUSIC CONTINUES) - One, two, three, good. There. - Kick. - Kick. Whoo! Are you saying we shouldn't stereotype men? - Yeah, 100%! Yeah, I get more excited the more I talk about it. (LAUGHS) We shouldn't stereotype boys and men. The more I do it, the more I strip back, I guess, the layers of why men commit violence, why we have such a problem with mental health, particularly for men, suicide, substance abuse. And rest. - (GASPS) Tragically, suicide is the leading cause of death among Kiwi men in their 20s. Outside the gym, Richie works with young guys in prisons and schools, so I'm very interested to see how he reaches a group of students. - You're not going to talk to your dad about emotions. You'll talk to him about the sport or grilling on the barbecue or something like that. - Are you saying that's... - Yeah, I don't talk to my dad about emotions, and that's because that's not what he did with his dad. That's not what my granddad did with his dad, so, it's like on that side of the family, you don't talk to your dad about emotions. You talk to your mum about emotions. Like, I don't feel inherently like I can't talk to my dad about emotions. I just know that I can't. - Have you ever told your dad you love him? - Uh, not regularly, no. (LAUGHS) - How old are you? - Uh, I'm 19. - Do you tell your mum? - Yeah. - And not your dad? - No. (CHUCKLES) It's not because` It's not cos I don't. It's just` Yeah. It's something that seems awkward. - Richie, this has actually quite affecting you, hasn't it? Hearing this. Yeah, totally, because I know that there are, like, millions of boys the same as you who (CHUCKLES) can't talk about their feelings, and when you can't talk about your feelings, that leads to, like, really damaging behaviours. You know what I mean? Like, one of the leading killers of young men is suicide, and imagine if we had a society of boys who thought they could tell people how they actually felt. - Mm. - Yeah. - Coming up, a barber shop where they really are working on the top two inches. - When you guys share, you're filling up each other's cups. * - If I'm going to do something about this problem, I need to understand the solutions. We're not reinventing the wheel here. There are amazing academics thrashing out the answers here in New Zealand every day. Taylor-Jane Cox has done an incredible study speaking to young Kiwi men. 15% of 450 young men had attempted suicide. - Yes, or purpose` Yeah, 'purposely hurt themselves' was I guess the wording, but yeah. So, for us, that was quite an alarming statistic. I'd actually checked that a couple of times. - That's so sad. - One thing that we were quite interested in was this idea of grit. And so, grit is like a specific type of resilience, and it's about this idea of passion and perseverance towards long-term goals, and we found that in the people that were high in hopelessness, if they had high grit, it actually` the suicide risk measure came down. The other interesting thing about grit is that it's not just measuring being able to persevere and keep going. It's also saying, 'Hey, look, stuff` like, shit happens, 'and sometimes life can be really rubbish and things can go wrong, 'but how do` can you push through those bad things and keep going forward?' So, it's not saying that you're this perfect person that can keep going forward and forward and forward. Grit actually measures those people that, when something goes wrong, how they cope and if they can get through that. (PENSIVE MUSIC) - What Taylor-Jane said about grit saving lives really stuck with me, especially as it looks like it can be learnt and improved upon. Shouldn't we all be doing that? Country folk often talk about grit and determination, so I'm interested in some tips from the heartland about resilience. There's a workshop running on a station where the manager goes by High Country Harry. Harry, good to meet ya. - You too, mate. Welcome to Mount Jewel. - Thank you very much. How come you're running the cutter? - Well, I got approached a couple of years ago now, and, yeah, the sort of kaupapa was there was a job going here, and... - Young fella to be the boss. - Yeah, bit of pressure. - Yeah. - Yeah, bit of responsibility. Oh, look, I love it here. A great place to call home. - Today's session is run by Elle from the support network Will to Live. It'll be a good test of the old grey matter in more ways than one. Elle! - Matt. Nice to meet you. - Nice to meet you too. How are you doing? - Yeah, good. Good. - Yeah. Beautiful day here. - Boomer day. - Oh, it's great, eh? - Yeah. So, what are you up to? - Oh we're just having a bit of a train-up at the moment. All the shepherds from around here have brought their dogs, so... - Fantastic. I should have brought my dog. - (LAUGHS) Oh, we'll have one for you. - Will ya? - Yeah. - Great. - On one side of your piece of your paper, you're going to write 10 things that stress you out ` you know, make you frustrated or sad. Yeah, it can be anything, and you don't have to show anyone. You can be as brutal as you want ` your job, your boss, your dogs. - She seems to think you're the master. - Yeah, but if you just say what I told you to, she might go. - Righto, Sue. It's you and me. Get in behind, Sue. Get in behind, Sue! Sue, we're working! - (LAUGHS) - Stop that flirting. Get in behind. - So, on the other side of your paper, on your left-hand side, write 'can control.' - Damn, that's pretty hard. - 10? I've got two so far. - And on your right-hand side, write 'can't control.' OK, so, from your 10 biggest stresses, now put them in those boxes of what you can control and can't control and can influence. - Speak up, Sue. Sue, wah. - ALL: Hoo. Hoo, hoo, hoo, hoo. (SUE BARKS) - Speak up, Sue. Wah. Wah. (LAUGHTER) - Harry, what's something in your 'can control'? - Uh, taking life too serious. - Yeah. So, with perspective. - Yeah. - So, you can control, like, your perspective. And now, what's something in your 'can't control'? - Uh, drought and weather. - And does that stress you out? - Yeah. Kind of understand the things you can't control at the end of the day. Like, you're not going to control Mother Nature. - I just want you guys to cruise along that fence line through the gate. So, has that brought anything up for anyone? - Well, most of my stresses, I've categorised into can and can't control. (DOG BARKS) Which, when they're down on paper, is a bit encouraging that you can, actually. - What's a different example of something you can control, then, Harry? - What's for dinner. It seems to be a real stress in our household. (LAUGHTER) - Wah, wah. Wah, wah. (SUE BARKS) Keep, Sue. (CHEERING, APPLAUSE) Good dog, good dog. Come here. What do you want for her? - Can't put a price tag on something that good. - Nah, you can't, can ya? (LAUGHTER) - So, a box of piss. (LAUGHTER) - How did Will to Live come about? - So, about three and a bit years ago, my partner took his own life when he was just shepherding on an isolated station. I've never had a run-in with mental illness before, and there was no sort of signs, and I was trying to reason why it happened, and I spent so long trying to find answers, and I was quite angry, and with anger comes a lot of energy. The concept of Will to Live came about because I went to a counsellor, and so did a lot of his friends around him, and I was quite worried about them. I said, 'Well, that's not good enough. 'Like, how are rural people going to get support when they need it?' We can't rely on the mental health system all the time. We've got to do something proactive ourselves. So, we thought we'd do a country tour and go to 18 rural pubs. It can be a doom and gloomy sort of subject, but lighten it up a wee bit and have a beer and a feed and just sort of make it a bit light-hearted. - How important are those really good role models like Harry and John Kirwan and those people? - Oh, super important, and, yeah, you don't need to have a big high profile to share your story. - Again, sharing your story is a great message to get out there, and those mental tools help keep things in perspective. Out in the country is one place where we need that message to get through, but I'm back in town, trying to figure out how to reach our urban men. I'm meeting up with a barber who's encouraging other barbers to help create that change. (RAZOR WHIRRS) (INDISTINCT CHATTER) So, why did you pick up the scissors? - I've always loved fashion. I've always been attracted to the hip hop culture, and a lot of my favourite rappers always had dope, dope haircuts. When I started cutting hair more often at home in the hood where I grew up in, a lot of guys were opening up and sharing things that, you know, I'd never heard of. You know, a few guys who were wearing gang patches, suits, uniforms would just sit in my chair and cry, and it was like, 'Whoa, men are crying.' A lot of the times, I've learned in my experience being a barber, just holding space for me to feel whatever they need to feel does more than giving advice. - What does holding space mean? - Holding space means, um,... listening, being slow... being slow to talk. We've had a lot of men open up who have come in for haircuts, thinking that or believing that this was the last haircut ` that they wanted to look good for their funeral after they would take their own lives, and so, after the experience with the barber in the chair, for a lot of these barbers, a lot of guys, it's helped save a lot of guys from going down that road. Guys will share their pain through laughter, through, you know, through jokes. But we all know, you know, behind every joke is some sort of truth, and so, yeah, if you're listening, you can hear it. - You seem like a man on a mission. - My family, in my whanau, we just want to create violence-free communities for our children to grow up in, and if I can do anything, which I can, with this vehicle that we have as a barbershop, you know, I will. - Coming up, I learn a bit about technology as part of the solution. - I mean, if you find something, I've got to tell you, right? - Yeah, yeah, and we're just letting the nation know as we go. * Now, there's some great work going on in our community, but at a certain point, and I know this from personal experience, you need professional support. I know a doctor who's taking mental healthcare to the remote corners of New Zealand. His ambulance is quite a statement, and he's also tapping into the virtual doctor sitting in our pockets. - Doctor Tom. - Gidday, Matt. How are you? Welcome aboard. - Thank you very much. - A bit like the TARDIS, really, isn't it? - So, this is a fully-functioning hospital on wheels? - That's it. Pretty much. More around being the ambulance at the top of the cliff than the bottom. Gets me out of the emergency department, gets me on the road, meeting some characters like yourself. - Why did you hit the road? - Oh, well, I've been working in the emergency department for 25 years, just seeing people with, like, strokes and heart attacks and suicide and self-harm, and so much of it's preventable, so I thought, 'Why not get on the road and take blood pressures, 'measure people's mental health, and get to them earlier 'rather than sitting there, waiting for them to come in?' - I could actually do with a bit of a check-up. - Yeah, I think we all could. Well, let's start with a check-up from the neck-up. The first thing to do is measure stuff, right? Unless we measure, we can't manage it. So, I've built this KYND app. So, I'm gonna quickly check your healthy thinking school. So, there's 10 questions there. So, it just tells you how miserable you are, you know? And often you don't know how miserable you are until you measure it. Right? So get started ` how often you feel sad. - Uh, probably 30% of the time. Felt disappointment... Anger. Felt guilt. I'm quite bad on the guilt ` 40%. Frustration? Often. - Roll your sleeve up, and` - Oh, I've got such big muscles, mate. - Big guns. - (LAUGHS) Big guns. - So, it want to be below 120, over 80. Pulse has gone up a little bit. - So, is this a good indicator of stress? - Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it's one of the indicators. Yeah. - OK. - So, you don't mind sharing your score on camera? - Well, depends how good my score is. - Well, you got an orange light for that, basically. So that's 28 out of 40, you know? So, you know, you've got a bit of stress and a bit of stuff` a bit of emotions going on in your life, so` - I'm an emotional guy. - Yeah, well, you know, but it depends on how it affects you and puts your blood pressure up and your risk. You know what? I'd want to talk a little bit more in depth and look at some of your other factors in the KYND app, and then come up with a bit of a diagnosis and a treatment plan because, you know, you might think that's normal for you, because you're running around, but, you know, there's other people your age that have got green lights and all that stuff, right? So, there's something we can fix. So, you know, I mean, if you find something, I've got to tell you, right? Yeah, yeah, and we're just letting the nation know as we go. - Oh, well, you started it! (BOTH LAUGH) - Well, I haven't started anything yet, but all these people working in men's mental health are teaching me a hell of a lot while I figure out how I can help. One tough nut to crack is the workplace. The professional pressure I put on myself nearly broke me, but I've got an old mate running a company who wants to lead a revolution amongst employers. Craig, I feel like you've come a long way since we played footy together 22 years ago in North Canterbury. - Makes me feel old, mate. It is. It's a little bit of a complete turnaround from where I was. So, when I came home three years ago, one of the first things I did was told my story ` told my story of my journey to where I am today to be able to go through the good and the bad. There was a lot of tears in the room when I did that. It was pretty raw for my mental health journey and the struggles, in which I've been able to get through and come out the other side, and there was a little bit of shock of, 'Who is this guy ` the new boss? Didn't expect that.' (LAUGHS) - And to be honest, I didn't expect that. I didn't go into that meeting thinking, 'Yeah, I'm going to bear my soul to everyone.' It just kind of happened. - How has the work environment changed? - It's gone from clock-in, clock-out, 9 to 5 to basically finding it really hard to switch off, and that flows into fatigue, flows into burnout, adrenal fatigue, not knowing when to turn off, how to turn off. What kind of expectation and what story are we telling ourselves of what the person on the other end is expecting? We have access to free counselling for a multitude of different things, whether it be mental health, to relationships, to finances. We treat all of our customers ` so, the accounting partners and small business customers ` as employees in the scheme. So, they too, for the last 18 months, got access to free mental health and counselling support paid for by Xero. So, at the moment there's around 880,000 Kiwis that are getting access to free support. - Wow. - Not only is it the right thing to do, you look after your people, your business performance is going to go up, which means profitability, your employee retention goes up, and that person is better off. So why are we not focussing on it more? - It makes sense to me that if we want to reach men especially, then one of the best places to start is at work. Like, more businesses offering professional counselling and support would be really powerful. In the barbershop, Matt Brown talks about holding space for those tough conversations, and he's invited me to join him in one of his weekly check-in sessions with his cutting crew. - I've always said no to anyone coming into our space, because it's sacred. And so, again, this is` you know, this is your space still, our space, so you don't have to share anything you don't want to share, you know? Don't have to go deep, but we'll just talk like we usually talk. Ka pai? Yeah? - Sweet. - So, anything you guys wanna bring up? - Just, yeah, our culture is, like, dropping, and everyone is just not going that extra step for other barbers in the shop. Like, I feel like I'm slacking on that, too. - Yeah, and it's almost like we need to try to bring an atmosphere back in here a little bit more, but I'm not really sure how we could do that. - Feel like recently, I've gone through quite a few traumas in my life and feelings and gone through a rough patch recently, and I've just been like, 'Nah, don't need to say anything, don't need or anything.' But I'm getting there. I'm getting there. I'll` Yeah. I'll sort it out eventually. - Love you, bro. - I promise that I will hit you up about how you're feeling in the moment. Whenever I hit you up, I want you to tell me` If you have the courage to. - I promise you I'll show up to your... puhoro. Yeah, I've been thinking about it a lot, eh? - What does that mean to you, hearing that? - Um... Um, yeah, it means heaps. You know, there's not a lot of people that would show up the way that I would show up. That's why I don't have an expectation when people say certain things. You know? So... just hearing that promise from youse is... Yeah, it means a lot. - (CHUCKLES) See ya. (INDISTINCT CHATTER) - So, that was remarkably powerful, and I think... all men should start their day like that. I'm really looking forward to meeting Greg Boyed's daughter, Sarah. * - Kua wahangu te pukorero. An outstanding communicator has been silenced. It's been a hard day here for the 1 News family, and it's with sadness and heavy hearts that we mourn the sudden death of our friend and colleague Greg Boyed. Greg had been battling depression. Our thoughts and prayers go out to your family. Kia kaha. E te hoa, moe mai ra. Rest in peace, dear friend. (BIRDSONG) - I'm really looking forward to meeting Greg Boyed's daughter, Sarah. Losing Greg was devastating. I've stayed in touch, spoken to his mum a fair bit. They've been really good to me, and I hope what we're part of here will do some good for other men going forward. When your dad was good, how good was he? - Oh, fantastic. He was` Not only was he a bright and smart and positive, warm person, but, like, anyone who'd meet him would tell him how funny he was. People didn't get to see the side of him that was so special and personal and wonderful, and just, like, the absolute number one dad on Father's Day, and it was` it was excellent, and it was such a great thing to have. - I just think a remarkable man, and` and I miss him. - Me too, and it's been... years now, which is hard to believe, because you don't believe it, and it still feels like... a couple of days ago, if that, and that is hard, because it feels like there's no space from it. My mum was the one who told me, and the first thing I thought was, 'I'll call my dad,' which of course makes no sense, but you just can't process it. And so, it literally went from, 'I'll call my dad,' to, 'I'm going to have a shower,' because something that big ` it just doesn't drop. You just need to go step by step by step to try and process and to try and function, and I don't think anyone should have to try and deal with it in one block. - You must have had some really tough days, I'm sure. - I have, and it's never the days you expect to be tough. Birthdays, of course. It's always` Any milestone you're handed, it's always going to bring up thoughts of things that should be or things that could have been. - When we caught up in the tearoom that day, your dad said to me, 'Mate, you need to talk to somebody,' and it stuck in my mind that... Greg said, 'Mate, go see the doctor.' So, when I went in there that day, I wanted to acknowledge the, um,... the fact that I told him I'd go and see a doctor and that I was good for it, you know? - And I'm glad he said that as well, because for someone that didn't go to the doctor for so many years and had finally seen that that was a fantastic step to take and a fantastic person to have in your back pocket, I'm glad that he can relay that to somebody else, or could relay that to somebody else. - I can't thank him enough, but... I can thank you. - Oh, and he's told me. You have thanked him, and he was more than happy to be there as well. It wasn't... It had been a long time since he'd come home and had a conversation with someone he worked with that he was overwhelmed and overjoyed to share with me. - I got so much out of that conversation. It was so good for me. I hope it was as good for Sarah. It was something that I felt that I needed to do, and... it's probably a relationship that I'd like to foster. Check in with Sarah from time to time and see how she's tracking. Um, what a remarkable young woman. I learned so much from all the other amazing Kiwis I've seen pushing the conversation forward on mental health. If Greg or myself had just heard some of this before we hit rock bottom, perhaps we would have been able to get out before it got bad. I have to use this opportunity, this privilege, to build on this momentum. I need some help on how to reach men, so I've got in contact with a guy called Murray Streets who knows a thing or two about getting buy-in from blokes, and he told me to meet him here. Murray. - Matt. - How are you? - Yeah, I'm very well, how are you? - Good, mate. Hey, why did you bring me to the home of New Zealand footy? - Well, if there's anywhere that can hold men's attention for 80 minutes, it's this place, isn't it? - So, Murray, you're an ad man. How do you change behaviour? - You can see two sort of cultural portrayals of men. There's that classic man alone that maybe beer brands and car brands have always spoken to ` the sort of staunch, independent pioneer type, and then there's another sort of caricature as well, which is the slightly younger version of that, which is the kind of larrikin. - So what comes first? Is it the advertising or the culture? - (LAUGHS) I think the two are symbiotic, because if you get great advertising, it becomes culture. - So, have you advertisers kind of got us into trouble here? - I wouldn't say we've gotten us into trouble. I'd say we've been victims of the same culture. (BOTH LAUGH) - Yeah. No, you're probably right. Hey, look, so, Murray, we've been on this journey for a couple of months now, and I feel like we might need to redefine what it means to be a Kiwi man. I want to show you what we've been up to. Getting myself well again, because I knew just how good life could be. Ooh, yeah! - See, that's it. - That's it! Yeah, that's it. - It only takes 10 seconds of courage. Just step into that space ` that brother's space ` and say, 'Bro, are you OK?' - I'm not a psychiatrist. I'm no specialist, but I care, and as we say, we give a shit. - Yeah. - And if we're talking about a plan for suicide? - Yeah. So, a plan to end his life ` um... - You get upset when you realise there must be so many men suffering in silence, and then you see people like you, who've gone on your journey, and... Just the positives that come from it. If we can just open up the conversation, if we can get people just to check themselves, and I love that... that moment in the kind of workplace, where it's just saying it's the little moments. You move into the bro's space, and these little moments can save lives. And it's just that accumulation of little things. We could do something with that. That's interesting. - Do you think I should get into advertising? - (LAUGHS) - I hope we can reach New Zealanders. As a dad to sons, I think about how important the messages we broadcast are. I know one Kiwi who is getting cut through, and whether he realises it or not, is role modelling a new kind of dad. - Uh, yeah, gidday, and welcome to this instructional video on how to be a, uh, Kiwi dad. How to fish. Here, you wind it up. You got it. You grab it. Yeah. I'll grab the net. (JAUNTY GUITAR MUSIC) - So, Jordan, do you often hang out in your boat while it's on land? - You know, we said we'd do dad stuff, and, you know, you come out on the boat, you check the lifejackets work, check that, you know, the motor things start. This is normal, isn't it? - Are you actually a dad? - No. The three kids are actors. They're not mine. They go home ` my three kids each day. I just relax. I have no idea. No, I am a dad. - What do you think is expected of Kiwi dads nowadays? - It's changing so much and kind of quite quickly. You know, you still` I think it's very generational. Like, you talk to our dads and they're still, you know, scratching their heads. They'll look at the news like, 'Who are these` Who are these guys talking about feelings?' And, 'Oh, I stay at home.' It's not their fault. It's just how they were brought up then. Dad wasn't chasing around, tickling me and, you know, that kind of stuff. I just had a rural country dad who was, 'Hey, boy. How are ya? Nah, good. 'Don't do that. Do that. You'll be right.' And playing with Dad was just watching him build stuff. 'So, you can be a goofball. You can have fun. 'I think that's becoming more normal that you can actually play with your kids and be silly and have fun,' and that's the normal stuff you should be able to talk about. - Feelings? - And feelings. - Would your old man have done that? - No! No! Would your old man have done that? - No! - See? - My old man was a southern man. (ENGINE REVS) (HEAVY ROCK MUSIC) - Yeah, so, this is just another natural` you know, very naturally set up dad thing here. You just come out, spin some spanners, tap some stuff. - So, as the dad guru, you've kind of put yourself out there, haven't ya? - Every week ` I committed to every Monday. I'm going to make a new video that'll give parents a bit of a chuckle, a bit of a laugh, and then from there, without even planning it, there's this whole other layer where I'm getting all these messages sent in to me ` private messages. 'Mate, you've got me through, like, the worst time. I've been feeling so low. Your videos`' I get that on the daily. I get dads sending me ` and mums and parents ` sending me actual serious parenting questions, needing desperate advice, and I'm like, oh gosh, what do I do? And I'll Google a bit, and I'll` And I try to lead them to somewhere that is professional and can actually help them, and I'll give them my own little two cents. But, yeah, I'm not the parenting guru, OK, people? I'm there for the laughs. - So, is this getting a little too deep for you, or...? - Well, (STAMMERS) Probably now, it's time that we just, you know, mumble and say, 'Yeah, yeah, nah, yeah,' and do this a little bit. Just, uh... Yeah. I think we've covered enough there. good stuff. Yeah. So` - Yeah. - The carburettor here ` if you... That's under that bit, and, yeah, you just tap that, and I'll just... open that. I'll just` We'll just give that a mix in there. No, that doesn't` I'll just` Oh, no. There we go. - (LAUGHS) - You know? Not only helping you on your mental health journey, but teaching you how to mix your window washer fluid, because that's a thing. - (LAUGHS) - I caught it. I didn't even look. - Talking to Jordan, the other thing I couldn't help but feel was my own struggle and how I found it really difficult to be good in my job and to be a really good dad, which I really wanted to be. I want to be a friend to my kids. I want to be there for my kids. I want to be emotional with my children. I want to be vulnerable with my children, so that they can be vulnerable themselves. (WAVES CRASH SOFTLY) I definitely don't want to be depressed. Definitely don't want to be a depressed dad. I want to be a fun dad. Why are you still at it? - Because our stats are going the wrong way, and I feel that I've failed. * - I've learnt a huge amount about how men struggle. I reckon it's time to meet the big man himself ` Sir John Kirwan. So, we've spoken to so many people over the last month or two about mental health in New Zealand, and we're really encouraged by what everyone is doing and what they're saying, but we're not reinventing the wheel here. JK has been doing great work in this space for such a long time now, and so it'll be interesting to see what he has to say and how he feels about how we're going. JK, firstly, I want to thank you. I want to thank you for being a great All Black and role model, and telling us all that it's OK to not be OK. - Mm. A pretty hard decision at the time. Yeah, no. It was, uh... I mean, retrospectively, it was one of the hardest decisions I'd ever made, because back then, you know, I thought it would ruin my career, and I didn't want to do it. But anyway, I said to my mum, and she said, 'Well, if you could help one person, you should do it.' So, that was my decision, and that's what I've focused on from then. - Have things changed since you started the conversation? - Well,... so, the hardest thing for me was I felt like I'd failed. It really felt like I'd failed. Our suicide rates are going the wrong way. I think the last four years ` 613, 618, 636, 668 ` and I just thought, 'This is not working.' You know? This is completely not working. So, I created a company called Mentemia, and we want businesses to deliver the mental health tool that we've built. So, tools and techniques that I learnt when I was incredibly unwell to how I am now, which is thriving, and people say, 'Oh, thriving, JK. Are you always happy?' I say, 'Nah, I'm not always happy, but 'I have the tools and techniques to deal with my emotions,' right? And so, I can be the best me. I can be sad some days, but I'm the best sad I can be. You guys should get incredibly excited about something small in your day every single day. It should be` Because you can change your attitude. I get incredibly excited about stupid things. - JK, you've already taught me that. - Yeah. - I get excited about a shitty cup of instant coffee... - Exactly. - ...every morning when I wake up because of you. - Yeah. So why did our parents have morning tea, lunch time and afternoon tea? There's a beautiful Maori saying that says, 'If you want to have hope and faith in the future, you must first stand on the shoulders of the past,' and often, we forget our past, and our parents had morning tea and afternoon tea because it's a good thing to do. Sit down and take some time. You know, it's` (PHONE CHIMES) Is that mine? - Tell you what, JK ` that's a bloody black cross against your name. - It's the prime minister. I didn't answer. There you go. Nah, I'm lying. (BOTH LAUGH) If you want to change mental health in this country, you've got to change first, and that, for me, is important. You got to start telling the truth when someone asks you, listen when people show you the signs, and then just make it part of the conversation. (PENSIVE MUSIC) - Great work is being done in men's mental health. I'm heading back to the agency to see if they've developed another way to push the message forward. - I've been talking to the team ` Ryan and Bex here ` to sort of take your mission and your ambition to actually try and put a bit of a dent in this thing. - And I think that 'Man Enough' is already a provoking question, because I think what this also needs to do is it needs to talk to mass New Zealand men, not just to those who are affected. - Going to take everyone ` also women included, right? - Exactly. - You know, and just show up to the table and say, 'Let's question this thing that we hold so dear at the heart of Kiwi identity.' - I think you are stronger, you are tougher if you put your hand up and say, 'Actually, I don't want to drink tonight. I have some trouble with drinking, 'and I'm going to drink water.' That person is braver and tougher. - And this idea of man enough is both provocation, but also, it's the answer, because you can say to the guy who says, 'You know what? I don't want to have those beers tonight. 'I just need to take it a bit easy.' You know, that's man enough. That's all right. - Mm. - That's cool. It's a validation. - Yeah. And so, you can play with that language, and you can just sort of see how it could enter the vernacular. - The line that kept coming back is, like, we think we're a manly nation, but as a bunch of blokes, we're not even man enough to write in a mate's wedding card. So, how manly are we really? And what if we took someone who felt sort of typically masculine, put him in front of the camera in a really confronting way, and then halfway through, kind of took a turn where he turns vulnerable, and says, 'Well, you know, are you man enough to show up for me?' You know, of all the people you've met, does anyone make sense as someone who could kind of show up as typically masculine and then make that pivot to vulnerability? - Absolutely. Surprisingly, we've met so many men who are your typical quintessential Kiwi blokes and rough, tough, the enforcers on the paddock, but who have been through something and are now being vulnerable and sharing their vulnerability. Love your work, Bex. This is good. (ALL LAUGH) This is good. So, I reckon that was great. A really epic catch-up with the guys from Dentsu. Really encouraged by what they had to say. I feel like we're right on the same page, and you can tell that they're passionate, they care. I'm excited. (SWELLING STRING MUSIC) It's really been a whirlwind journey. I love the idea of getting tough guys to support the campaign by opening up. I'm more nervous than tough, but money where my mouth is. I'll go first to get things going. - BEX: Done a real mean thing in letting you see the monitor, Matt. Is that mean? - It's real mean. - I'm very, very green, though, so you're gonna have to show me the ropes. - Gorgeous. - Yeah, I never thought I'd become depressed. I never thought I'd become some kind of poster boy for depression, and it hasn't been easy talking about my low point and to make sure I did it justice, because depression is a really complicated thing, and it's really different for a lot of people. But... if I can help one person from going down the hole, or if I can help one person come out of the hole, then I'm into this boots and all. (SOMBRE GUITAR MUSIC) None of us can do this alone. I need you. Are you man enough? Are you man enough to help? Are you man enough to change? Are you man enough? www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2020